Democrats complain about the U.S. Supreme Court making George W. Bush president. But two economists think that the “fair and balanced” Fox News network also played a big role. The economists estimate that Fox News convinced 3 percent to 8 percent of its audience to shift and vote Republican in the 2000 election, Richard Morin reported in his Washington Post column. In Florida, which Bush won by fewer than 600 votes, the economists estimate the “Fox effect” produced more than 10,000 additional votes for Bush.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- okobserver on Open thread 11/23
- okobserver on Open thread 11/23
- ANTI on Open thread 11/23
- ANTI on Open thread 11/23
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/23
- donndublin on Open thread 11/23
- ANTI on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- XXX on Open thread 11/23
- donndublin on Open thread 11/23
107 Comments
You guys are covering this topic now? Better late than never eh?
There will be a lot of this, especially after the 2004 vote, “it was this organizations fault “ or that leaders fault. The majority voted him back in, the majority have been made fools and they know that now. I work with a guy who proudly announced he voted for G.W. on election night 2004. Now with each revelation that comes out. He sets quietly in the corner of the break room, long gone are the days that he defends his choice. He more acts like Benedict Arnolds best friend may have acted after he became aware that the story of the traitor’s action were in fact true.
Betrayal is a bitter pill to swallow, the majority are having to now digest it.
And the other networks do not influence voters? Get real people.
More mental wankering in the echo chamber of Moonbattery.
I do not blame one network or another. The Majority lived on a diet of sound bites. Some were hoodwinked by their Pastors. Most just slept, but what I am saying is that the majority can not be wrong. So rather then taking the blame they must find someone to blame.
I believe people became more well informed.
The Left always complain that Fox News slants to the right, just because there are a few conservative commentators, but for the most part, they are “fair and balanced”. I believe the Left hates Fox News just because they have the largest audience.
Same goes with the Right’s complaint that the rest of the media slants to the left, just because they have leftist commentators, but I don’t think they do. They suck in reporting though, but that’s about it. CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, FOX, they are all profit orientation business, so Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie’s baby and who was last booted from American Idol is more important news than politics.
But for 24 hour television news channels, Fox News is the best in my opinion. For evening news, it’s NBC and the same goes with local news, for investigating news it’s Frontline on PBS and 60 Minutes on CBS. For overall news, NPR beats everybody hands down. For Business news, its CNBC. For political news you will have to go to magazines and newspapers to get good news on that. Roll Call is good.
Could it not be said that the losing side might also be using this as an excuse. I find it interesting that its being seen as an excuse for bush voters and not as a reason Kerry lost. Different perspectiveJust my two cents
Fox News ran the swift boat liars over and over and over again before the last election.
Fox “reporters” never tired of asking disingenuous “probing” questions that gave these mean-spirited and vengeful pr*cks a national platform to say that “I served with John Kerry in Vietnam” when none of them even knew Kerry’s name until years later when Kerry testified on US atrocities.
Now the question is will Bush pull Fox News down with him.
Anyone with a modicum of journalistic training knows that Fox leans as far to the right as CBS to the left. Fox is as fair and balanced as Dumbya is concerned about the middle and lower classes.
But at this point, the American electorate has no one to blame but its collective self for sending this crook to Washington twice.
The electorate always gets the government it deserves. And we are really getting it now.
And, the statement above that Fox News made voters “more well-informed” is so absurd as to defy response.
Of course, Newsweek shows Bush is still down 7 points in the media bias category. Of course, this story didn’t get covered in the Eagle blog. Damn liberal bias again! ;-)
“There’s one other base here: the media. Let’s talk a little media bias here. The media, I think, wants Kerry to win. And I think they’re going to portray Kerry and Edwards — I’m talking about the establishment media, not Fox, but — they’re going to portray Kerry and Edwards as being young and dynamic and optimistic and all, there’s going to be this glow about them that some, is going to be worth, collectively, the two of them, that’s going to be worth maybe 15 points.”Evan Thomas, Asst Managing Editor, Newsweek.
Of course, this quote shows that Bush is still down 7 in the media bias category. Strange, don’t think this quote got any play in the Eagle blog….hmmm…liberal Eagle media bias rears its ugly head again!!
“There’s one other base here: the media. Let’s talk a little media bias here. The media, I think, wants Kerry to win. And I think they’re going to portray Kerry and Edwards — I’m talking about the establishment media, not Fox, but — they’re going to portray Kerry and Edwards as being young and dynamic and optimistic and all, there’s going to be this glow about them that some, is going to be worth, collectively, the two of them, that’s going to be worth maybe 15 points.”
My apologies, the above quote was from Evan Thomas, Asst. Managing Editor of Newsweek.
Apologies for the double post. Clearly, the Big Media conspiracy has mucked up the blog…didn’t think my 1st amazing post took, so I wrote the 2nd. Some Zionist plot, I’m sure.
How interesting since that quote was clearly before the 2004 election. I guess blow thinks that mythical media bias to the left made it ok to look the other way while diebold took the election.
So… a more recent example of why fux news better start spinning harder. It seems CONSERVATIVES are abandoning bush in droves. This from the liberal AP.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060505/ap_on_el_ge/republicans_ap_poll
I think the cons are gonna need some more people to hate, besides gays and mexicans, if they really wanna get their base to the polls this year.
Who are the kookaide drinkers listening too if fox cant spin their boy out of the doldrums?
PTL club? Pat and the CBN? Jerry “gays are responsible for 9/11″ Falwell?
Maybe Ralph Reed, the christian coalition boy who might soon be sharing a cell with jack abramoff?
How’s all that working for you all now?
Come on, SOMEBODY besides bush must be responsible for these bad numbers among conservatives!
Kinda like after watergate, no one voted for nixon?
Check out this story that the “left wing” media ignored. Basic facts aren’t the MSM’s strong suit. They’re more into stained dresses and DUI’s.
MILITARY SERVICE OF POLITICAL LEADERS
DEMOCRATS:
* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Paraplegic from war injuries. Served in Congress.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier’s Medal.
* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze, Star with Combat V.
* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
* Chuck Robb: Vietnam
* Howell Heflin: Silver Star
* George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
* Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311.
* Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.
* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and AirMedal with 18 Clusters.
* Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.
*John Murtha, Marine Corps. Capt., called for pullout of troops in Iraq
REPUBLICANS — and these are the guys SENDING PEOPLE TO WAR:
* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve. (Bush’s Machiavelli)
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. “Bad knee.” The man who attacked Max Cleland’s patriotism.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve. Neocon warhawk
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve. Neocon warhawk
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon Kyl: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.* Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.* George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate;
failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.* Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non- combat role making movies.* B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Vietnam POW, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
Remember how the Bush campaign trashed him in the Republican primaries in 2000 for his service record?* Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
* John M. McHugh: did not serve.
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Jack Kemp: did not serve. “Knee problem,” although continued in NFL for 8 years as quarterback.* Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.
* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
* Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base. (Our gift from Austria)
Pundits & Preachers
* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a ‘pilonidal cyst.’)
* Bill O’Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve.
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* John Wayne: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
* Ralph Reed: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.
Time for Osama and al-Zarqawi to be magically capture. A pair of terrorists or better to open.
“the economists estimate the “Fox effect” produced more than 10,000 additional votes for Bush.”
I guess it couldnt have anything to do with the katherine harris effect. You know, the one where the chair of the florida bush campaign was the one in charge of voter rolls, ballot design, and the counting of the chads.
Or maybe the diebold effect?
Or the supreme court effect?
I’d say liberals should be mad because we got out played. We should have stooped as low as they did. Win at any cost. If the dems dont get that, they may never win another election, give the depths the r’s will stoop.
A pair of terrorists or better to open
That’s funny Brian. Good to see you again.
You cheaters, I’m tellin’ Mom!!(My best ksfarmgrrl impression).
Something I was unaware of concerning the Florida fiasco in 2000 was the fact that 54% of black votes were discounted even though they make up only 11% of the voting population.
According to a BBC report I watched on FSTV, something like 96,000 black votes were discounted for felony convictions. 95% of those thrown out had no felony convictions. The government was throwing out any black voters’ vote whose name even faintly resembled someone convicted of a felony.
Since blacks are prone to vote democrat, Gore would have been elected president had the state government done to lawful thing and fully checked each person’s record. That makes the election, in my opinion, a fraud; at least in that state. But the overall picture is, that while Gore won the popular vote, he did not do so convincingly enough top make Florida a non issue. He even lost his home state, not a good sign.
Bush has turned out to be the worst president ever without question, but my take on Gore at the time of the election was he would have been an ineffective and weak president. But hindsight is always best ain’t it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1372065.stm
Speaking of… Where or where is MOTHER?
Something I was unaware of concerning the Florida fiasco in 2000 was the fact that 54% of black votes were discounted even though they make up only 11% of the voting population.
According to a BBC report I watched on FSTV, something like 96,000 black votes were discounted for felony convictions. 95% of those thrown out had no felony convictions. The government was throwing out any black voters’ vote whose name even faintly resembled someone convicted of a felony.
Since blacks are prone to vote democrat, Gore would have been elected president had the state government done to lawful thing and fully checked each person’s record. That makes the election, in my opinion, a fraud; at least in that state. But the overall picture is, that while Gore won the popular vote, he did not do so convincingly enough top make Florida a non issue. He even lost his home state, not a good sign.
Bush has turned out to be the worst president ever without question, but my take on Gore at the time of the election was he would have been an ineffective and weak president. But hindsight is always best ain’t it?
Opps . . . sorry bout the twice-post!
LeftHookr
“disingenuous “probing” questions that gave these mean-spirited and vengeful pr*cks a national platform”
Not one of the SwiftBoat vets assertions was PROVEN wrong, John Kerry had to change several details about things that were “SEARED” into his memory.
If the Swiftvets were lying Kerry could have put them to bed by releasing his full military record to the public. But he couldnt do that because he knew that they were telling the truth and he couldnt afford to have it widely known that he had a less than honorable discharge because of his treasonous actions of meeting with the enemy in Paris while he was still on reserve duty.
Vengeful pr*cks indeed, look in the mirror Hook.
No blow, you guys were the ones who ran to “mommy” in the form of the supreme court and their “one time” “no precident” hasty decision.
georgie boy has never won a damn thing on his own, without his daddy’s political cronies helping him out.
You’re a funny guy, Heck.
Kerry said he’d release his record as soon as Bush released HIS.
Don’t have to worry about that happening, do we? As soon as the Air Force instituted drug-testing before pilots could fly, President AWOL never took another physical and he never flew again.
Coincidence, mere coincidence.
BTW, the rock-ribbed Republican crew member whom Kerry pulled to safety under fire, said that it happened just like Kerry said.
Fox just couldn’t find the time to interview him, relying on John O’Neill et al. who were hired by the NIXON administration to smear Kerry decades before . . .
LH
I’ll take your change of subject as a tacit acknowledgement that Kerry is indeed a lying treasonous weasel.
“Not one of the SwiftBoat vets assertions was PROVEN wrong, John Kerry had to change several details about things that were “SEARED” into his memory”
“widely known that he had a less than honorable discharge because of his treasonous actions of meeting with the enemy in Paris while he was still on reserve duty”
Wanna provide some evidence of these “facts” heckler? Who wants to bet he will quote rush, fux, or a tinfoil site?
Kerry let the swiftboaters lie about him because he is a big misguided pussy these days. He somehow thought being above the dirt would win him an election.
How did THAT work out?
Just makes my point that if the dems arent willing to go as low as the r’s they can expect to never win an election again.
I mean, they did the same to mccain and his military service. I guess if you are a yellow elephant you still have lots of leftover “fight” in you to smear the real vets.
The real vets likely left their “fight” energy on the battlefield. Unlike the yellowelephantchickenhawks that PL listed so well.
BTW heck, blow, you may have said this before… but did you serve?
Heckler,I have never heard that spin before. I have instead heard that Kerry thought no one would believe the Swift Boaters and did not take them seriously.
Am I getting this correct, because he did not fight back, until it was too late, that this confirms what those Swift Boater’s were saying? Did you not see Ted Koppel’s story when he talked to the people in Viet Nam who witnessed Kerry’s heroic acts.
It’s really sad when your side lies, and then has to lie about the lying. Geez, maybe that could be spun as a title for a book. Oh, never mind, that’s been done already.
DD
Ted Koppels interview with people living under oppressive communist rule, people with government monitors looking over their shoulder as they spoke? Yeah, I saw the story.
Again, if the Swiftvets were lying Kerry could have proven it by releasing his records, but they werent, so he couldnt.
LeftHook,
I always thought it was strange that not one person came forward and said that they were with Bush at his station in Alabama or Arkansas, or wherever he ended up at. The only person I can recall is the Commander of that installation that said he didn’t know anything about Bush being there.Even today, I can supply names of my buddies that verify where I was during my time in Viet Nam.
Heckler,I am very sorry, but you saying what you’re saying, does not make it true.
Back it up. Or, shut up (as your hero O’Liely would say).
The Koppel interview was more proof than what you have — which I am betting, is nothing.
TY KFG,
I appreciate the sentiment :-}. Unfortunately, in the strange game of political poker, even if Democrats regain control of the House, it would still be possible for a pair of wanted terrorists to beat a full House…go figure.
Kerry did not release his military records. George W. Bush did.
I joined the Navy Reserve in 1962. Served for two and a half years before going active. I don’t remember the name of anyone that I severd with in the reserves.
There are several people that have come forward and verified Bush’s service.
Facts are facts.
Hank
And then there are Bushfacts,or is that Bullfacts?
And Heckler,When Rove’s job comes open, you might want to consider applying. I hear he makes over $140K per year. Tax dollars well spent on a dirty tricks campaign manager – who has an on-going job even when there is no campaign.
After Karl’s indictment, Bush will be looking for someone who can provide the kind of baseless spin that you seem adept at.
DD
What part specifically do you want me to back up?
Remember the part about Kerry saying he took CIA guys up the river to meet Kmer Rouge people on Christmas Eve of a certain year? As it turned out the Kmer Rouge didnt exist until about 3 -4 years later!! He had to back off on that one.
Then there was the one about one of his purple hearts. The shrapnel backblast from the grenade he fired into the river back from too near a distance. The doctor of record that treated it said he lifted a little piece of shrapnel from his skin with his tweezers. Didnt even need a bandaid. His commander wouldnt put in for the purple heart. Kerry got the purple heart after his commander rotated out by convincing his new commander that it was due him.
If you paid any damn attention at all you would know that O’Liely as you call him was calling the Swiftvets liars too. I’ve never put much stock in what he has to say.
“Facts are Facts”, like your drug-use use accusations? Please. You have demonstrated yourself as underserving of a response. Last one you get from me.
“There are several people that have come forward and verified Bush’s service”
Hank, not the end of his service. If you have a reference for those facts, I’d like to see it.
I thought records of military service were public information. How can they withhold their records?
LeftHook..The thing about lists like that is that they can show whatever you want, depending on who is making the list. Your list of who served/who did not serve was designed for someone’s purpose. I suspect that neither major party has a lock on either side of that list. My point would be the obvious omissions of folks like Obama Barack-D, Hubert Humphrey-D, Patrick Kennedy-D, Bob Dole-R, and Jeremiah Denton-R.. just to name a few.
Heck where are those facts? I’d like to read them for myself.
I don’t watch O’Liely, so thanks for enlightening me.
My complaint is that your conclusion: Kerry did not release his military records, because he was not able to AND that he had a less than an honorable discharge – is not based upon known facts.
The above is not provable and it is mean-spirited speculation on your part. You guys beat Kerry; why is it necessary to make up shit about his record? Please tell me that.
Dear ksfarmgrrl,
The vast majority of one’s personnal military record are confidential unless the service member signs a form to release them.
George W. Bush signed that form early in his political career. John F. Kerry did not.
Journalists cannnot do any meaningful research on Kerry’s military record because he refuses to allow it. He has said he would, said he did, but he never has.
Hank
The Khmer Rouge didn’t “suddenly” come into existence in the late ’60s early ’70s. The communist party of Cambodia came into existence early one, as it did in many countries. It became commonly referred to as the Khmer Rouge or “TRed Khmer” in the early 60s or so. Therefore, Cambodian communists, perhaps referred to as Khmer Rouge existed at the time of Kerry’s alleged boat “trip”. As one encyclopedia quotes:
” In 1959, a party congress was held for the first time without the presence of Vietnamese. The party reorganized itself and for the first time publicly declared itself to be socialist in ideology. The Khmer Rouge and most Cambodians date the origin of the Communist Party to this event.
In 1966 the name of the party was changed in secret to the Communist Party of Kampuchea (CPK). Only the inner party were informed of the new name. The Vietnamese and lower level party members were not told. The party leadership endorsed armed struggle against the government, then led by Norodom Sihanouk. In 1967, several small-scale attempts at insurgency were made by the CPK but they had little success.
In 1968, the Khmer Rouge forces launched a national insurgency across Cambodia. Though North Vietnam had not been informed of the decision, its forces provided shelter and weapons to the Khmer Rouge after the insurgency started. Vietnamese support for the insurgency made it impossible for the Cambodian military to effectively counter it.”
So Hank, if Kerry’s military record is confidential and never been released, how do YOU know what is or is not, in it?
Can you post a cite for how you know it? Or is it just fux rumor?
And the man behind the throne? Brilliant puppet master or insane paranoid? You decide.
http://daysbreak.blogspot.com/2006/05/stupid-is-and-crazy-does-paranoia.html
And the criteria for the Purple heart were, at the time of kerry’s service:
a. The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force who, while serving with the U.S. Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded;
(1) In any action against an enemy of the United States;
(2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged;
(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party;
(4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces;
(5) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force;
Note the requirements don’t say that the it has to be a “big” wound.
If we’re going to quibble over the size of kerry’s wound and whether it was worthy of the Purple Heart, then perhaps the same discussion is in order for elder recipients of social security and medicare worth tens to hundreds of millions of dollars.
DD
Let me clarify.
There were some assertions made by Swiftvets that contradicted what Kerry said that cannot be proven either way. They are matters of memory.
There were other assertions made by SV’s that were proven true, Kerry publicly had to change his story.
Then there were assertions made by SV’s that, had they been lies , Kerry could have refuted by a FULL release of his military records including the medical reports. Why didnt he do this? What was he hiding? Now the interesting part…
Kerry met with the Vietnamese in Paris in a particular time frame. I believe this was detailed in his autobio. If you look at his military service dates he would have been still on reserve status during this time frame. That would possibly constitute treason. If you look at his discharge papers you would find that his honorable discharge occured several years after his service ended. It is alleged that he recieved a less than honorable discharge for his conduct with the Paris meeting and his other anti-war activities while still on reserve status. It is alleged that some years later that a political favor was done by a connected Navy official to get his discharge upgraded to Honorable. But if you get all your news from the ABC’s and the likes of the Wichita Eagle you wouldnt have heard this.
Therefore it is my assertion that:
1. He couldnt prove the SV’s liars by releasing his full records because most of what they said was true.
2. If he did release his full records it would be publicly known that he had a less than honorable discharge.
The fact that the National Guard got a call from Bush sr and Bush jr’s records suddenly disappeared strikes me as a little more of a problem than anything Kerry may have done. The fact that Bush jr got only 25 out of 100 questions on his Guard exam correct strikes me as something that would have kept anybody else from flight training.
There are way too many unanswered question concerning Bush’s record in the National Guard for anybody to be questioning Kerry. Bush’s true Guard record will never be known because it doesn’t exist anymore. Daddy made sure of that.
KFG, I’m not sure about Heckler, but Joe Blow has served, at least, in the “Bush army”:
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/01/delay_may_get_h.html#comment-12812713
P.S. Happy 5th of May, batos! ;-)
Sure lots of “alleged(s)” in your post there. More rumors and swift boating? We ask for facts and cites and we get “allegedly” ?
“There were other assertions made by SV’s that were proven true, Kerry publicly had to change his story.”
Where is the proof on this? Again, I’d like to read this for myself. If there is a technical problem posting links, how about just a plain verbal cite? We can take it from there.
Still no comment about verificaton of the END of bush’s service? Heheh. My dad told me one time that no one remembers your first two weeks on a job, but everyone remembers your last two weeks.
Not true for the shurbster?
Great bone dig rage. Worth the read!
Ah, yes, the “good old days”–four months ago. . . .:)
ksfarmgrrl
Give me a list of news sources you consider credible. I dont want to waste time digging up references that you deem beneath credibility.
I did not serve. I was to young for Vietnam, when I was old enough I considered it, no one tried to talk me into it, my Dad talked me out of it, it wasnt “cool” at the time…etc. By Gulf War 1 I think I was pushing 30 and figured it would be over before I got out of Basic, which I wasnt sure I could make it through anyway.
Rage..I’m gonna be more careful what I post on here…. I thought it was the “elephants” that never forgot anything….. LOL!!!
Amazing how facts always come back to the surface!!
. . .which means you’re basically my contemporary. Interesting.
Oops.. . ya slipped in on me there Sam! ;)
“Give me a list of news sources you consider credible.”
Heck, I’d settle for any credible reference. If you want me to define credible, I think that is telling.
How about something mainstream that isnt fox? Or the mooney paper in washington? Just something that can be researched. I’m just looking for facts, not spin.
Opinions, like hindraker and instapundit, are not credible, so dont post unless there is a link inside to some document.
What Heckler would say if he did not feel the pressure to continue his dissembiling:
“Therefore it is my SPECULATION (and some could argue UNFOUNDED)that:
“1. He couldnt prove the SV’s liars by releasing his full records because most of what they said was true.
“2. If he did release his full records it would be publicly known that he had a less than honorable discharge.”
Why is it so difficult to say that your views on this are opinion and speculation. They may even be correct, but there is no way to prove them. What I think the problem is, Heckler, is that once you tell a lie, it becomes necessary to continue lying to conceal the lie. Sorta like “Weapons of Mass Destruction Program Plans . . .” etc., etc.
I get my news primarily from NPR and I used to watch Nightline when Ted Koppel did the show. I subscribe to the paper form of the Eagle, but it is not my only news source. On-line I read The Washington Post and the New York Times (I refuse to pay to read their editorial writers and that was primarily what I read at the Times – so I visit there less often now). Full disclosure on my sources.
I don’t believe everything I’ve ever heard on “Air America”. Similarly, you should step away from some of the tin-foil news sources you seem to frequent.
Heckler,You actually seem like a pretty decent person. Therefore, it is hard for me to understand why you feel the need to hold on to your position as “fact” when it is clearly “speculation”. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing opinion or speculation, my complaint is again, the preceding are not facts and should be labeled appropriately.
DD
Part of what I contend is speculation and I identified it as such.
Part of it is fact and is verifiable. If you had followed the story very closely you would know this. I’ve noticed something very “telling” also. Not one of you on the left have listed an allegation the SV’s made that was proven false. Nor have I seen a good explaination for Kerry not releasing his full records.
Don’t hold your breath waiting for satisfaction from the Heckler. He danced out of our last confrontation.
But here it is for us again. This time he’s got a half dozen opponents.
Ah but first to the thread.There can be NO DOUBT that Fox news gave bush the presidency. They were the first to call the election for him. One of their pundits Sean Hannity was on the air (his radio show) all day long election day pleading and wheedling amd begging people to go vote for bush.
There was no source in any media doing the same for Kerry that day.
I ascribe Fox news’s popularity to the short attention span of the American people. Fox employs cartoonish graphics, loud blaring thundering musical snatches and “whoosh” noises to great effect on the largely dull American public. It’s the cartoon channel for “grown ups”. lights and flashes “fair and balanced” whoosh noise “fair and balanced” blaring score “fair and balanced” whoosh whoosh “fair and balanced”
“Hey Mabel? put it on Fox. They’re fair and balanced.”
KFG DD
This article tells of Kerrys backtracking on the Khmer Rouge business.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
Dear ksfarmgrrl,
You ask,
“if Kerry’s military record is confidential and never been released, how do YOU know what is or is not, in it?”
It’s actually pretty easy, there is example after example after example of Kerry’s lies about his record. His Senate testimony, many of the so-called-facts in his book etc., etc.
If I testify that I was in Cleveland in 1969 and over 100 people that were with me in 1969 testify that I was never in Cleveland, one can then realize that I lied. This is inspite of the fact that I have not aurthorized the release of my records for 1969.
You then ask,
“Can you post a cite for how you know it?”
You betcha! I’m at work right now, I have all the info handy at home. I’m getting ready for a trial tomorrow, if I get time I’ll cite some sources.
Hank
Thanks for posting that link heck. That wasnt so hard, was it?
I see the flap is over whether or not he was IN cambodia or NEAR cambodia. And if he embellished the story in 1986, he should have been called on it. It hardly calls his loyalty or his military service into question.
Now… as to the less than honorable discharge, him not deserving a purple heart, and the other allegations?
Thanks hank.
OT
Holy shit–Porter Goss just resigned as the head of the CIA!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-White-House-Shake-up.html?hp&ex=1146888000&en=17709b88f1d4bcc3&ei=5094&partner=homepage
Ruining the CIA: not a big deal. Consorting with prostitutes at sex parties: evidently a big deal.
Good. Would that this had come up before he drove all of the experienced and independent professionals out of the agency.
ksfarmgrrl,
Good job going toe-to-toe with the Wingnuts. But do you really think it’s psychologically healthy for them to keep reliving their 2004 glory days, with the Swiftboating and all? I think you’re just enabling their denial at Bush’s 33%. You need to take care of you!
Getting back on subject, does anyone on this BLOG believe that Clinton would have even been the democratic nominee for president the first time if CBS hadn’t done the fluff piece on him and his ‘I’m-not-no-Tammy-Wynette-stand-by-my-man-cookie-baking-wife’?
Hell, the propaganda blitz by the MSM was so effective that many voters believe Clinton actually won the New Hampshire primary that year!
Hank
CF, you are right on as usual. I promise to stop being co-dependent. heheh.
I was just gonna post about Porter and the general agreement that he is resigning over the impending hookergate. Fox is DESPERATELY looking for a “family or health” reason.
Maybe the real deal here. Interesting talk on the blog here last week about the CIA/DOD/CHENEY feud going on. Mary takes a fall at CIA, then this yesterday about Rummy being a “consumer of intelligence” when he has the largest intelligence budget in the federal government. Then there was a slam on pentagon intelligence.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0605/04/ldt.01.html
And today Porter Goss resigns? Gee, tit for tat, more info on him suddenly is communicated? From where, the rival pentagon/cheney group?
Check. I wonder if checkmate can be far behind. Too bad we are the pawns.
“Ruining the CIA: not a big deal. Consorting with prostitutes at sex parties: evidently a big deal.”
CF,http://www.seeingtheforest.com/archives/blowjobimpeach-thumb.jpg
ksfarmgrrl
The less than honorable discharge is speculation, but based on a couple of simple facts. It cannot be proven for a FACT unless he releases his records.
The short story on his third purple heart. His squad was doing some recon or cleanup work in a village. They were not under enemy fire. He threw a grenade into a rice bin to destroy it. He stood too close. He got shrapnel in his butt. He documented this in his own journal and there were witnesses. 2 or 3 days later was the event were one of his men got knocked into the water when a mine rocked the boat, and Kerry took the boat back to get him. He claimed that the mine explosion resulted in a shrapnel wound to his butt. He got his third purple heart and left 2 days later
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html
If you go to the Swift Boat Vets website you can find a lot more info. You may not trust them, being partisans, but they cite sources for all the charges that they make.
Hank kinda like “many people” still believe saddam had something to do with 9/11? Like “many people” still believe he had WMD?
Hank, first you say this:
“Journalists cannnot do any meaningful research on Kerry’s military record because he refuses to allow it.”
Then you say this:
“It’s actually pretty easy, there is example after example after example”
????
I’m laughing so hard, I can’t read any farther. Heckler and Hank say Kerry didn’t release his records. I have to think that’s because Kerry didn’t personally put them in the hands of Heckler or Hank, because his records were available on his website. Those records included a copy of Kerry’s DD214. Bush’s “was lost.”
Bush did release a few of his records, but his document dump did not include pay records, relevant medical records, sign-in sheets, and defense of six months AWOL, but did include disciplinary grounding letter and report of 300 day absence. BTW, over 30 days AWOL is considered desertion, and since this was during what the government considered a war, although not a declared war, it was desertion during wartime.
Bush still owes this country the remainder of his military service. I say send him to Iraq to finish out his commitment.
I’ld like to know why there is even a paragraph dedicated to the Kerry/military thing. Who cares. Kerry wasn’t elected, Bush was. And what did we get out of that? Lies, lies and more lies. Who has more blood on their hands, Bush or Kerry?
Hank said:”There are several people that have come forward and verified Bush’s service.”
Not in Alabama, Hank. In fact NO ONE in the Alabama unit ever saw him. Oh, he was IN Alabama, but never showed his face in the Alabama ANG, after requesting the transfer to there.
Great link for those interested in just what W was doing while in Alabama.
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/09/02/allison/index.html
RD
He did not do a complete release. Cherry picked the stuff he wanted out. Get real. Watch some news besides the alphabet networks.
JM
Someone named LeftHook told a lie about the SwiftVets and I refused to let it stand. Funny thing, no one can tell me what they lied about and back it up.
Dear ksfarmgrrl,
Come on girl! You asked how can you know what’s in it or not. I clearly explained.
You don’t have see the military record for many of the facts if there are a bunch of records that are not part of his personnal military records.
If he claims that he was in Cambodia, ordered by Nixon, then we can prove that this is information that is not going to be in his record. These lies are confirmed by the simple facts. ie., Nixon wasn’t president when Kerry calimed Nixon ordered him into Cambodia. The operational records of Kerry’s swift boat squadron also prove that Kerry was somewhere else then.
There are many facts about his service that are documented in records independent of his service record. There are many facts that can only be confirmed if he opens his record up. Things like his first discharge from the Navy Reserves.
His personal service record has never been opened. He promised to sign the form allowing it. He claimed at one time on his website that he had signed it. He never has. Therefore the anal exam that Bush had to endure because he did sign the form will never happen for Kerry. Furthermore, the MSM doesn’t seem to care. They are perfectly happy to be spoon fed and believe the ever changing press releases from his office concerning his glorious military service.
Hank
Heckler, who ran away from a fight with ME on Bush’s broaching of the separation of powers, just called LeftHook a ‘liar.’
FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
Oh, by the way Heckler–your ‘President’ is a lying puke and a dictator.
CF
I love you too!
You may be surprised to hear this but I have more important things to do than this. I just refuse to let Hook lie about the SV’s and get away with it.
By the way, have I lied to you about something?
Heckler is good at ducking out of fights. He ran away from one with me on the fairness doctrine.
Fox News?
It’s audience is the peanut gallery all grown up.
Brit Hume is Buffalo Bob, Sean Hannity is Howdy Doody and Tony Snow is Clarabelle.
JR
It’s pointless for me to argue the fairness doctrine with someone who truly believes that the alphabet networks news is balanced.
As an example lets contrast the media treatment Rush got with the treatment Congressman Kennedy is going to get. Check back with me in a couple of days.
Heckler:”The less than honorable discharge is speculation.”
Very good, Heckler. I did not notice your clear labeling of speculation earlier.
Heckler:”As an example lets contrast the media treatment Rush got with the treatment Congressman Kennedy is going to get. Check back with me in a couple of days.”
JR,He might actually be correct on this one. The Kennedys’ were able to get Roone Arledge (sp?) – he is/was the head of ABC – to not show a movie that dealt with Marilyn Monroe and the Kennedy men. Thus, the family has demonstrated their ability to influence big media in the past. I think Arledge is a family friend, or something.
The congressman from Rhode Island has had a history of drug and alcohol problems & earlier treatment also. So, based on the foregoing, this would seem to be a bigger story than Rush’s problems. But, on the other hand, this Kennedy promptly admitted his problem and said he was going to treatment plus he did not have (that I know of) a lengthy record of criticizing or ridiculing addicts. This latter was what made Rush’s story more notable.
Thanks Brian, DD, KSFrmGrl.
This is the way it always is. Their “facts” turn out to be a trumped up rumor by a paid shill.
Heckler screams, “The KHMER ROUGE DIDN’T EVEN EXIST!” Wow, that might be potentially damning, if it were true, which Brian proved it was not.
As far a Hank and his “evidence,” never forget that Hank has the capacity to block out the vast body of scientific concensus based on meticulous research that the universe is some 14 billion years old in favor of some fundamentalist nut-job’s wacky interpretation of Genesis that somehow argues for an 8 thousand year old universe.
Hank goes with the Bible, which is not only not a science text, it’s not getting interpreted correctly by those who try to turn it into science and history.
If you are capable of doing that, you can’t be reasoned with, and there’s no point trying . . .
Stephen Colbert says it so well:
“Mr. President, my name is Stephen Colbert and tonight it’s my privilege to celebrate this president. We’re not so different, he and I. We get it. We’re not brainiacs on the nerd patrol. We’re not members of the fact-inista. We go straight from the gut, right sir? That’s where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. I know some of you are going to say “I did look it up, and that’s not true.” That’s ’cause you looked it up in a book.
Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that’s how our nervous system works. Every night on my show, the Colbert Report, I speak straight from the gut, OK? I give people the truth, unfiltered by rational argument. I call it the “No Fact Zone.”
Now, I know there are some polls out there saying this man has a 32% approval rating. But guys like us, we don’t pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in “reality.” And reality has a well-known liberal bias.
Genius. Pure genius.
LeftHook,
Why, oh why, do you hate America?
Heckler,
Luv U too–in the manliest of ways, I hasten to add.
Fox News (make that Fix News), together with the Florida state police blockading around voting precincts in black neighborhoods, and local officials switching polling places without notice at the last minute in predominantly black Democratic nieghborhoods.
Funny, the Patrick Kennedy story was the lead tonight on the network news. Porter Goss resignation second story. Doesnt sound like special treatment to me.
Scarborough on MSNBC tonight said ALL congressmen get that treatment of look the other way by the capitol hill police.
Everyone except Cynthia McKinney of course.
Also if they are Republican.
If you are Black or a Republican, you don’t get special treatment from the unionized, old dead wood, captial police.
Maybe a better headline would be “Does America have Fox News to Blame!
Brian
The sources I read say the Khmer Rouge did not exist as a fighting force until about 1970. What gives?
So it was Ambien that caused Pat to pass out? Sounds like he might have mixed it with a little too much tequila.
LeftHook
What lies did the SwiftVets tell?
ksfarmgrrl
It wont be in the prominance of the story, it will be in the tone of the story.
McKinney physically assaulted an offficer, there is no alegation that Kennedy did.
Anyone else want to try on the SV lies?
What does Kerry have to hide?
Damoon, it looks like young patrick is not alone with the ambien problem. Reports are this is the fasted growing form of impaired driving.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/08/business/08ambien.html?ex=1299474000&en=17cf99894f297014&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Of course, it does make ya wonder, is it true, or a convenient excuse?
Fox News tells both sides of the story–the side that supports the President and the side that attacks the Democrats.
Heckler, I’ve already grown bored rehashing the seamy sh*t of the professional character assassins. The fact that John O’Neill was hired by Nixon to smear Kerry the first time and then he sprang up, phoenix-like, fully feathered at just the right moment to sucker punch Kerry yet again tells me all I need to know about these despicable b*st*rds.
You’ve obviously got all their talking points down cold and they have served your side well indeed. Unfortunately, look at what is running our country as a result.
Just look at it . . . and despair of your pyrrhic victory.
The left get their news from the Daily Kos, Democrat Underground, and Randi Rhodes, hardely news worthy informative sites.
It’s a religion to the hateful left. They honestly believe that main stream news is a conspiracy of the Bush Administration. Which is pretty sad.
Fox commentators will actually engage in debate with people in the left and who they disagree with. Even O’reilly will debate with people he disagree with. Hannity and Colmes makes a great moderate left and right debate show.
The left? They just interview themselves. Just bash Bush by themselves. Nothing but a back slapping fest for each other. They don’t engage in debate with people they disagree with. They couldn’t handle it.
Wrong again, Joe.
Al Franken has “the resident ditto-head” on his show practically every damn day.
This guy gets to argue Rush’s side of things with Al.
And unlike O’Reilly, Al doesn’t just tell him to “shut up” and cut his mike.
But keep at it . . . if you post enough, eventually you’ll say something factually correct by sheer accident.
Colmes . . . hehe, I thought castrati were never supposed to lose their hair.
If Hannity hadn’t rigged the game, he would partner with somebody like Mike Malloy.
Now THAT would be tv worth watching.
Ok Joe,
I know your guys have put you in a corner. But desperation does not have to force you into insanity.
Daily Kos? never been there. DU? Went there once to see CFs post. Randi Rhodes? I’d like to hear her. But I can’t do that in Kansas.
So much for your allegation where I get my “marching orders”
Hannity and colmes? You are kidding me right? colmes is a former stand up comic! He’s on that show to make Hannity look good. He does that real well.”The left? They just interview themselves”
Gee Joe I know you consider CNN as much “left” as I see Fox “right” That “leftist” media outlet CNN had the program CROSSFIRE for 20 years. There was also CAPITAL GANG. Can you give me a Fox equivalent of these debate forums? CNN had Pat Buchanan,Bob Novak, Tucker Carlson, Mary Maitlin, Kate O’bern, Neal Boortz, Cal Thomas just to name a few.
Fox has…….alan colmes.
Yeah REAL fair and balanced.
JR. Never said that CNN or major media outlets are left leaning. I don’t think they are. I just don’t think Fox is all that right leaning.
This is just a repost of what I did about 100 post ago on this thread topic.
“Repost”
The Left always complain that Fox News slants to the right, just because there are a few conservative commentators, but for the most part, they are “fair and balanced”. I believe the Left hates Fox News just because they have the largest audience.
Same goes with the Right’s complaint that the rest of the media slants to the left, just because they have leftist commentators, but I don’t think they do. They suck in reporting though, but that’s about it. CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, FOX, they are all profit orientation business, so Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie’s baby and who was last booted from American Idol is more important news than politics.
But for 24 hour television news channels, Fox News is the best in my opinion. For evening news, it’s NBC and the same goes with local news, for investigating news it’s Frontline on PBS and 60 Minutes on CBS. For overall news, NPR beats everybody hands down. For Business news, its CNBC. For political news you will have to go to magazines and newspapers to get good news on that. Roll Call is good.
LeftHook
Kerry didnt need the SV’s to assasinate his character, he took care of that himself with his own actions. They just told the truth. As of yet youve offered no proof to the contour.
You play awfully loose with the L word.
Proof to the contrary. Sorry, not enough coffe yet.
1 Fox vs CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, NPR, Moveon.org, Knight Ridder, NY Times, Left coast……..
Phillip and friends, you are too funny. It does my young conservative heart good to see that you libs are still trying to figure it out. There is a good book you should read. It’s a little long, and you may not have to patience for a long read, but it is called “The Man in the Mirror”.
Joe is right about the media not being really left or right but more along the lines of the tabloid supermarket varietiy news. And most news networks have a mix of left, right and center pundits on there staff.
Yes the media is Liberal and FOX is not. That is how it became number 1.
Look at all the different topic posts, just look at them. Notice how they are mostly on the left point of view. The modern media can barly ananyze the news let alone themselves.
The media can rest assured the public has woke up to the fact.
FOX is in the crosshairs, because they have a successful business model and they deliver.
IF the premiss of the FOx assisting the election, it also shows by default the country are all conservative Republicrats, putting the Lideral Dems in the clear minority.
So which is is, does it reflect or report…..you decide.