The American Civil Liberties Union gets a lot of grief but has been remarkably consistent over the years in supporting civil liberties — regardless of whether it’s a liberal or a conservative cause. But that consistency may not extend to its own board members.
The ACLU is considering a new standard in which its board members would be discouraged from publicly criticizing ACLU policies and internal administration, The New York Times reported. Some board members are flummoxed. "You sure that didn’t come out of Dick Cheney’s office?" former ACLU board member Nat Hentoff asked. "For the national board to consider promulgating a gag order on its members — I can’t think of anything more contrary to the reason the ACLU exists."
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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54 Comments
“The American Civil Liberties Union gets a lot of grief but has been remarkably consistent over the years in supporting civil liberties — regardless of whether it’s a liberal or a conservative cause”
BULLSHIT
mierda de toro for you illegals.
All the civil liberties except the 2nd Amendment huh Phillip?
Rumor has it there have internal squabbles about this in the past, mostly because it’s common for the ACLU’s enemies to take any juicy offhand comment from a ACLU person and paste “the ACLU said it” on top of it.
Perhaps a bigger problem–and I think this was their intent–was that lesser souls in the organization might make Chapter or Affiliate pronouncments, or even just pointedly note their membership and say something that is either inaccurate, ill-advised or actually contrary to ACLU policy. And then get posted on freerepublic.com.
The concern is justified, by I think they worry about too much. For the most part, people who join the ACLU “get it” and a little dissension or even confusion in the ranks ain’t gonna kill us (yes, I am a member).
Hentoff and a few others are the resident purity gadflies, and this is (usually) a good thing.
I don’t know the details of the proposed policy, let alone who’s taking what position, but I suspect that it would have to survive the critical examination of Wendy Kaminer and several Socratic contrarians on the National Board, and in the end, will be quietly voted down.
Great post rage.
The heckler/nathan/outlander/hank/sbs/sts/ folks have no problem lumping all the aclu folks into one, but just try tying TWO christians to the same position. Then they scream “we are not all the same”.
Is Nat Hentoff the Downbeat guy?
“I am for socialism, disarmament, and ultimately, for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion,” he stated. “I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the properties class, and sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal. It all sums up into one single purpose — the abolition of dog-eat-dog under which we live. I don’t regret being part of the communist tactic. I knew what I was doing. I was not an innocent liberal. I wanted what the communists wanted and I traveled the United Front road to get it.”
Roger Baldwin, co-founder, ACLU.
A hero to many people on this blog, no doubt.
Gosh, if we were talking about christians, we could say “he really isnt a christian”.
But you dont hear us engaging in that kind of hypocricy, do you? Nope. We take the bad with the good.
I still like the comment here that when the christians wanna look good, they are all on one team. But let something go wrong, and it is every man for himself.
I dont disown my bretheren when I disagree with them. I dont say they are not “real” defenders of liberty.
I dont set myself up as judge and jury concerning who is “real” something and who is not.
Do you?
“Civil liberties, like democracy, are useful only as tools for social change.”
Roger Baldwin
Right on cue, heckler confirms my prediction:
“The heckler/nathan/outlander/hank/sbs/sts/ folks have no problem lumping all the aclu folks into one”
heheh. You guys are all too easy today.
flike, do I win anything today for my preditions of the predictable?
For Christ’s sake, the guy was born in 1884 and the ACLU was founded in 1920. Socialism and communism as experiments had been popular since Waterloo. The French instituted laborer’s ‘workshops’ to organize the common man – “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need” – after the 1848 revolution. Even in 1920, the communist revolution in Russia had not yet taken control of the state completely – internal struggles and external armies still were occurring. The comment above was a REFLECTION on his original intent in founding the organization. I’m not in any way defending the guy, but hindsight is 20-20. The excesses of Stalinism occurred towards the end of his tenure.
Sects and branches of Christianity have practiced benign forms of socialism and communism for millenia – religious orders in the Catholic Church, the Amish, etc.
Irrespective of WHAT Baldwin believed, the organization evolved, under Patrick Murphy Malin, into an organization dedicated to supporting the constitution and the rights of the citizen.
So does jerry “gays are the cause of 9/11″ falwell, or pat “gays are responsible for katrina” robertson speak for you, heckler?
How about fred “god hates fags and soldiers” phelps. Does he speak for you, heckler.
Since you share the same belief system, I guess I could say about you and them “A hero to many people on this blog, no doubt”.
Wanna compare stupid remarks heck? I have all day today to quote YOUR boys and the stupid things they say. Let’s start with bush and his comments about how he always wanted to be a dictator. Dare me to post the link.
Come on. Let’s do it heck! Let’s engage in a good game of stupid leader quotes.
“usefull idiots”
Great post Brian. But clearly, since heckler only heckles, it is wasted on him.
Pearls before swine, ya know?
Should we talk about the preznit’s useful idiots?
KFG
I’d love to have a go-round with you but I’m blogging from work. Just have time to stir things up a bit. Sorry.
Funn how when you call him on his bullshit, heckler is too busy to post. I’ll be waiting, after more google time.
Would this be like the swift boat lies you said we didnt refute heck? I noticed you disappeared after I refuted over 50 swift boat lies. You are welcome to refute my posts there instead of abandoning ship like you did on that issue.
Heck, are you trying to avoid another public humiliation?
too late
KFG
I kicked your ass on the Swift Boat thing, you were just to dazed to realize it.
Heckler:
I like you in spite of yourself. So, I am going to help you a little bit.
Having a lot of false information DOES NOT EQUAL kicking someone’s ass.
heheheh. Ok heck, you post the link to where you kicked my ass. I am proud of that thread. And you?
For those of you who can read, here are the swift boat lies that heck “thinks” he kicked my ass on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Boat_Vets
Scroll down to the truthfullness section. Yes, it is wikipedia, but you can click on the referenced source.
On the ass kicking thread, I even posted the link to the dissenting comments. How much more fair can we be?
Please heck, post the link to that thread where you BEGGED someone to prove the swift boaters lied. Show the readers how you disappeared after the refutations were posted. Let the readers see how you kicked my ass.
heheh.
KFG
If you call all that “stuff” you posted “kicking my ass” you are obviously still dazed.
As to this thread, Communists and Socialists have long recognized that to defeat Capitalism and liberty in America they had to destroy the Constitution, namely the Bill of Rights. Key to this goal is wiping all vestiges of Judeo-Christian values from the public life(the Bill of Rights being born of the Natural Rights or God-given rights concept). If you read Baldwin’s stuff he’s quite clear about this goal.
If you step back and look with disspationate eyes at the actions of the ACLU that goal is still evident in their actions. They count on all of their “usefull idiots” to do enough “good” works that nobody notices.
Thats why I highlighted Philip’s opening statement as BS. If he really believes what he said he is either biased beyond any sense of clarity or he is willfully ignorant.
Heckler, please post the link to your ass kicking so everyone can see again how dazed I am. heheheh.
Wassa matter boy, cant find the link? Cant click on the sources in the wikipedia article?
Cant admit you are wrong?
My posts here still stand. You are as predictable as republican swearing, gay bashing, tax breaks and deficit spending.
Funny, I think the Supreme Court has sided with the ACLU a couple of times…dupes and shills I guess.
or useful idiots
hang all the activist judges!
activist = anyone who doesnt agree with christianism dominion tactics.
Brian
The Supreme Court decides cases based upon the merits of the case before them, not on the merits of the parties involved.
Since heck is researched challenged, I guess, once again, I will have to do the bonedig.
good thing too heck. otherwise, your side would NEVER win.
Heckler,
Exactly the point.
Brian
Exactly the point indeed. As I said before-They count on all of their “usefull idiots” to do enough “good” works that nobody notices.(what the overall agenda is)
Heckler,
the guy is dead…dead and buried…he expressed a devotion to an untested philosophy at a time when many others were excited about testing it.
The sins of the father die with the father…unless you can provide evidence that the organization is devoted to the founder’s vision, either via a ‘vision’ statement, published organizational ‘goal’ that jive with Baldwin’s, intercepted mail or email outlining a continuing strategy to overthrow the US government, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
Coca-Cola used to use unadulterated coca leaves to impart some ‘zip’ to their drink. Unbeknownst to many, coca leaves are still used in most colas, though the ‘zippiness’ has been extracted before use. The continuing use of coca leaves by the company today does not indicate that it desires to return to past formulations. the company has changed, the formula has changed.
Would that be the dominion agenda of the toxic christianism proponents? Or the gay agenda? Or the neocon agenda?
So many agendas, so little time to think.
Good thing the hecklers of this world dont NEED time to think. They just look for which agenda values boy is shilling.
You two are such good comrades, I’m sure Baldwin is smiling up at both of you right now.
The Wichita Daily Worker,ooops, Wichita Eagle Blog has many good comrades.
Brian
Actions speak louder than words, I look at their actions.
hee hee, brian, my esteemed comrade…
nathan ties gays to poligamists and pedophiles and heckler ties the aclu to dead communists. when the facts are not on your side, the old stretching of the truth is in order.
More of that good christian honesty no doubt. What would values boy say about those false ties? That god ordered them?
hee hee comrade
heckler,
You’ve lost a whole lot of credibility with me that you used to have. Your attitude doesn’t become you.
Brian
First of all, grow a sense of humor, don’t get so damn touchy.
Second of all was anything I said false, misleading, or unreasonable?
I stated the position of the co-founder of the ACLU and made the charge that the ACLU seems to be following the intent of it’s founder. Neither you or KFG really challenged the merits of the arguement, so I took the occasion to have a little more fun.
I also pointed out that Philips opening statement was BS and neither of you challenged that either.
heckler,
Nothing to do with a sense of humor..it has to do with the absurdity of what some people see as evidence or proof. Just because I might label you an idiot doesn’t make you one, and it certainly doesn’t make any of your children or business partners idiots. I have to produce some tangible evidence (you know, something that can be touched, felt, read, etc.)to support the contention. On the other hand, you’re free to produce it yourself as you are successfully doing right now.
heheh hecker wants us to respond to every outrageous remark he makes?
not that much bandwidth in ks
“it has to do with the absurdity of what some people see”
I couldnt have said it better Brian. Some things are so nuts they dont deserve a refutation.
but please, heck, feel free to declare victory
Wow how did I miss this one?
I never saw Heckler stay still that long.
(whenever I see Heckler I hear music in my head. Remember “Best Little Whorehouse in Texas” and the song “Dance a little sidestep?” That’s the music)
Heckler I have been debating you longer than anyone else except maybe CF. You have NEVER kicked anyones ass. (honestly laughing here)I got this mental image of Heckler with one leg in a room full of people who keep kicking him in the ass! lolEverytime he gets kicked he whirls on his attacker and yells “I just kicked your ass!”
I could do a bonedig myself.
Ah but back to kicking ass. I feel late and left out.
Wanna know my major beef with the ACLU heck? They defended no less than Rush “popmbythedozen” Limbaugh!
So your call of BS on the ACLU representing both liberals and conservatives isitself BS. I bet your feet stink too!
Look out Heckler just kicked my ass!
So…. bones come home to roost.
Here is one thread where heck claims he kicked butt on the swift boaters subject
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/05/open_thread.html#comments
But here is where the swift boat LIES were refuted. heheh. Also where heck THINKS he kicked butt.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/05/rumsfeld_can_ru.html#comments
Ah, yes, Heckler, the stale ole’ red-baiting attack on Roger Baldwin! You get credit for consistent unoriginality. Yes, Roger called himself a communist in his younger days, as did Bertrand Russell. . .and Robert Bork, and many others. He never did autocratically control the organization’s principles, but by 1940 he was so virulently ANTI-communist that he forced an openly communist member for the National Board. . .in violation of the org’s own rules. Not one of ACLU’s prouder moments.
Regarding the ACLU today, well, http://aclu.org tells you right where they stand, in your face!. . .funny, but I don’t see anything there about the proletariat, means of production etc. . . in fact, its charter is staunchly non-partisan. I guess I must not have read closely enough. . . or maybe I need a new tinfoil hat!
Nathan, what position were you wanting them to take on the 2nd Amendment?
Rage
If you truly believe that the ACLU is nonpartisan and balanced in it’s defense strategy then there is little point in me shaking you from your dillusions.
And I don’t speak for Nathan but it would be my guess that he’s wondering why the ACLU doesnt believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms, a position taken by a strong majority of constitutional scholars, some of them admittedly anti-gun.
JR
You are just like KFG, you could take a 5 pound hammer to the side of the head and not realize you’ve been hit. I swear, sometimes its as if your skull is made of hickory.
But I love you anyway.
Rage,
The ACLU supposedly defends our civil liberties and supposedly is the defender of the Bill of Rights.
I find it odd that they will defend everyones rights when it comes to the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th… amendments yet they take the stance that the 2nd amendment gives no idividuals rights.
Don’t you find it odd that the ACLU meets in secret yet fights for open records?
Let’s see,… if the ACLU was always clearly wrong, then they wouldn’t have any success in the court system, and therefore I wouldn’t have any problem. Somehow, I have to turn this argument 180 degrees around. I know; I’ll just refuse to see this!!Eureka.. Ir works!!
I could be wrong… but I don’t think anyone ever said the ACLU was always wrong.
I would say it is 70/30 or close to 80/20 in favor of them being wrong…
Why thank you heckler! I take as a great complment your comparison me to kfg. Don’t make me do a bonedig to show one of our many battles where I cleaned your clock or sent you scurrying away.
I apologize that I cannot simply post the link to this. Here is a cut and paste.
And now an oldy but a goody. Heckler gets his clock cleaned and quits the field. That old thread ends with a comment on my post which Heckler did not choose to (couldn’t?) refute.
The subject was Social Security.
Awww at last Heckler REVEALED. “Works for a corporate producer of airliners.”That makes you a Boeing mid manager Heckler. That also makes you among the lowest of human life.The debate was social security. I admire you Heckler. You went off topic by keeping to topic……..your topic.I will stay on topic. You and such as you seek to destroy Social Security.Ya gotta forgive me a little vitriol Heckler. I truly despise folks like you. “I worked hard , I made myself a a valued employee”Translation: You stabbed your co-workers in the back and kept your nose strategiclly placed at the rear end of your supervisor.Hey and that would be fine for you. I got the number of cretins like you a long time ago.But back to the issue.You love your work Heckler. Your nose is up your employers wazoo and hence anyone who you have authority over……..well if it’s good for you……then you gotta get some noses in your rear end.Most people are not like you Heckler. Oh they do have to answer to creeps like you. But mostly they are about simply getting by. They like that at the end of their servitude to folks and employers like you that society offers them a respite….and rest. They deserve that.Oh but that sits uneasy with people like you. You gotta keep working and you gotta keep others working for or under you. Your only comfort in this is making others as miserable and unfulfilled as you are. Most people work to live. YOu live to work and work others.Work til ya drop dead Heckler. (Sooner than later I hope) But don’t work others til they drop dead.Lower the age for Social Security. Increase the benefits. Tax heavily those who make their fortune on the backs of others to fund it. In short……..make the employers beg for workers.Posted by: J R | August 31, 2005 at 12:50 AMHeckler, I think JR has your number.Posted by: XXX | August 31, 2005 at 05:54 AM
Want more Heckler? We have danced and danced and I always lead. I invite you to show me or anyone where your hand was on your opponents ass or your foot striking it.
Oh but I will leave you an out. The ACLU. American Civil Liberties Union. Clearly your trouble is not with the “American” part. You are a flag waver. Civil? well you are fairly civil, more so than me. You are just misguided. Maybe “Liberties” is your difficulty. You proudly embrace a President that denies them.
Or is it “Union” that troubles you? Maybe that is it.
The ACLU defended RUSH LIMBAUGH Heckler. Who have you ever defended? Or is your province the proud accomplish of how many asses you have kicked vs. kissed?
Game, set, match.
JR…
A legend in his own mind on the WE blog.
It must be nice to have somewhere to feel so important about yourself.
Great post JR. The truth really hurts ‘em doesnt it?
Nathan I’ve no need to feel important about myself. I DO take a great deal of pleasure in taking apart those who do. I also do not pontificate that my ideas and posts are divinely inspired or get god to fight my fights. You know, like you do.
“Pride goeth before a fall” or don’t you know that Nathan?
I AM humbled when folks I consider wiser than me acknowledge something I post.
I don’t do “great posts” kfg. I get lucky now and again mostly on the weakness of my “enemies”. That last of mine must have been adequate enough to shut down Heckler NOW as it did then.
Yes JR,
Pride COMETH before the fall…