On NBC’s "Meet the Press" Sunday, retired Gen. Anthony Zinni (in photo) had strong words for the Bush administration’s "lack of credible planning" for the Iraq war and failure to develop intelligence about the insurgency. He noted, "We’re not fighting the Waffen SS here. You know, we’re fighting a bunch of ragtag people with AK-47s and IEDs and RPGs. They can be policed up if the people turn against them. We haven’t won the hearts and minds yet."
He continued: "If there’s a viable government, there’s an opportunity for jobs, if there’s a program that shows hope for the future for their children, they’re going to turn against these people. We haven’t given them that in three years."
Still, can’t the Iraqi people see for themselves that supporting the insurgency is contrary to their interests? Or have they just updated their Saddam-era fear to enable these thugs?
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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40 Comments
I guess Gen. Anthony Zinni forgot the lessons of Vietnam. People were saying the exact same thing.
Just replace “ragtag” with “Viet Cong” and “Iraq” with “Vietnam” and “Iraqi People” to “Vietnamese” and you got the same thinking that was in place in the 60’s. Didn’t get us nowhere.
Joe,Shoot, I agree with you, and you have given one of the best reasons why we should bail and bring our people home. Even the oil ain’t worth it.
How many millions of refugee’s were left when we left Vietnam?
How many millions were killed when we left Vietnam?
If you really want to compare the two is it worth the instability in the region and possible death if we were to just leave?
It doesn’t even factor in the amount of death caused by giving a victory to those who oppose us. It would only show them that we really are a paper tiger.
But Nathan is that not what we are being? The most powerful nation on the planet and a group of “freedom fighters” as they call themselves are standing up to us. Our casualties are down, but that is because fewer of our troops are going into harms way. That is a benefit to us but also a benefit to the insurgences, they can still kill Iraqis which makes us look bad. I said it once before, if we are at war let us be at war. There is no winning unless we are a superior strength, I still think that Bush’s actions were not only wrong but illegal.The fact we are at a stalemate only make it worst.
Release the dogs of war! If the Iraqis really want to be free and a democracy they need hope. There is no hope in the way this is going. That is why the insurgency is still operating, terrorism or another name would be guerrilla warfare can only operated with support from the citizens either by direct support such as shelter or supply. Or simply by remaining silent and not telling about where they are or whom they are. Either from fear or favor, that is how the V.C. were able to keep going. The citizen were more afraid of the V.C if they spoke to the Americans then they were of living under communist rule.
Yes, very similar to Nam. In both cases the people of the occupied country opposed the occupation of their country and did not support the “Vichy” regime put in place by the occupiers.
Nathan – many fewer died in Nam after we left than when we were there. Our mass bombing (more tonnage than in all of WW2) killed about 10% of the country’s population. Millions died during the war. Then there were severe retributions against those who were identified with that occupation but that paled in comparison. Today VietNam is still recovering but has become at least as free a country as US allies Saudi Arabia etc. I have a couple of co-workers who travel home to VN every year – they are free to come and go there.
It’s easy to say the average Iraqi should stand up to protest the insurgents. Problem is, are you going to be one of the first hundred, or first thousand, who do stand up, and find yourself dead by horrific means within the week, leaving your children and family without a father or breadwinner?
Most people have feet of clay when it comes to actually putting into practice the opposition they voice in private.
Iran is another classic example. The population is on average very young, opposed to the theocracy, more desirous of good relations with the West and the US. Given that these tytpes oppose the regime, how come it’s still there? Rhetorical question…because I don’t want to be one of the first to be shot or sent to the Iranian gulag for my protest.
In India, Gandhi started a program of passive resistance against an occupying power that was democratic (at home) and had a conscience as far as its responsibility to India (at least to a degree). And yet, the British broke lots of heads and even killed many protesters. You think the Third Reich would have treated gandhi and his passive resistance the same way the British did?
Zinni had it right. Who are we to second guess a former commander of CENTCOM and a paid consultant to the pentagon after his retirement.
He said democracy doesn’t “come from” elections…true. Democracy comes from the belief that it is the people who should govern. The election is the means to that end. If the people don’t understand or believe the premise, then the election is a sham.
We would have had a better chance to “win” the war by bringing bright Iraqi students to the US over the course of 20 or 30 years, educating them from an early age in Enlightenment though and American political theory, and then letting them go home to “infiltrate” these ideas into the population. 20 or 30 years sound too long?? How long do you think the Middle east has been in a state of flux? How much longer do you think it will be so because of the ignorant actions of this administration?
Iraq was lost before we went in.
The question is how to get out as expediently as possible.
AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT–
Remember all the right wingers who said Ron Earle was a corrupt prosecutor who hated Republicans and there was absolutely NUTHIN’ to the DeLay scandal.
Well, DeLay announced he’s not going to run again.
Heh.
Wrong again, right-wing-nuts.
AND SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT YET AGAIN
From the reality-based community:
The Missing ReportBy Matthew Yglesias | bioI spoke to Sean Kevelighan at from the Treasury Department’s public affairs office about the case of the missing Trustees’ Report. He said “there isn’t a timetable” for the release of this year’s report, but that there would be a 2006 report, he just couldn’t tell me when. I brought up the Trustees’ apparent statutory mandate to produce a report by April 1 and he said he didn’t know anything about that, but conceded that there is a statutory requirement to do a report each year. “I wish I could tell you more,” he said.
I don’t know exactly where this fits on the fishiness scale, but it’s pretty fishy.http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/28517
For the past five years, the report has come out in March. A lot of folks are guessing that the new numbers are NOT supporting the President’s claim that Social security is going bankrupt.
Brian says:
“Most people have feet of clay when it comes to actually putting into practice the opposition they voice in private.”
Aint it thetruth, Brian. Aint it the damn truth!
Brian also says:
“bringing bright Iraqi students to the US over the course of 20 or 30 years, educating them from an early age in Enlightenment though and American political theory, and then letting them go home to “infiltrate” these ideas into the population.”
Hell, we dont even do that with our OWN students.
Enlightenment? I guess we wont be sending any of them to Kansas schools. They’d just be getting a different theocracy.
ksfarmgrrl, :-)), Sometimes, you kill me!!, But please, I don’t mean that literally!!
Well Brian, since I dont believe in concealed carry, you would at least see me coming after you! Heheh. Not that I ever would of course. You are safe with me. But conservatives should take note:
“Shhhhh. Be bewwy bewwy quiet. We’re hunting wepubwicans here!”
Heheheh. I think we bagged a big one named Tom Delay!
…and as far as people having feet of clay…I have three words.
Operation Yellow Elephant.
Google that phrase and see what you find!
FreeStater, welcome! I dont know if you are a new poster or simply a new incarnation of an existing poster:) but I dont recognize your writing, so I am assuming you are new!
TMP Cafe is one of my favorite sites. If you click on the link, notice the book ad for “Foxes in the Henhouse”. Mudcat, the author, is going to be on Tucker Carlson tonight. I’d recommend Tivoing TDS and watching Mudcat. You may not agree with him, but he is funny as hell.
And please, go buy a copy of “Foxes in the Henhouse”.
I guess while I am shilling and pimping, I may as well go all the way…
Support Ned Lamont! Support Francine Busby! Support Harold Ford Jr.!
If our votes dont count in ks, our dollars count in those races!!
Iraq will only get worse if we “stay the course”. Sunni’s perceive our devolopment/training of the military as arming and enabling a Shi’ite force that they fear will persecute them. Hence, the IEP and road-side bombs. Shi’ites think we are dropping the ball in stabilizing the country and hence are froming their exta-military militias.
I think having that part of the world unstable and growing more unstable is contrary to our national interests (read oil; even though we get less from there than our allies). The situation of war torn middle east is much more dangerous to U.S. interests than was a war-torn S.E. Asia.
The U.S. leaving is not a good idea; staying may be worse. I still think a three state solution is the only sane idea. Who would all three trust to split up their oil money amongst them? Once we figure out the last question, maybe we could leave then? Maybe the best thing that can come of this whole deal (given that we survive) is that we can put our “neo-carnage” foreign policy ideas to rest.
Support Newt Gingrich!!! LOL
Well said DD
When you have 3 unfriendly factions,,,,,,and splinter groups of those factions,,,,”bad guys” becomes a fairly useless term.
Then too there is the normal tendency of people to rebel against authority..(our troops) in a more unified manner.
(We hate you and when this is all over your next but for now you are blowing up the invaders so that is ok)
There are 2 possibilities here.
bush and company were simply too stupid to see what they were getting into.
or
bush and company DID know what they were getting into and the goal was a “justifiable” and permanentU. S. presence in Iraq.
I say it’s the latter.
JR,There is a sentiment amongst some people that the latter was our goal all along. Do you know of any recent news/stories about the speculation that we are building permanent bases there? I haven’t seen anything like that in a while.
DD
I hear the same rumblings as you about bases DD. I’ve never done a search on it. I don’t know if there is anything on it. That’s why I didn’t mention bases.
That said, if there were bases being built, it would not be hard to conceal.
Thought I’d share this link. I think there was a story on this in yesterday’s Eagle. We had planned to build 142 primary health care facilities in Iraq. Because the insurgency has cost so much we could only afford to build 20.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/02/AR2006040201209.html
Does anyone else wish this administration was as interested in this country’s health-care? You know, that was a dumb question . . . they probably would mess it up as badly as they did in this Iraqi example. Never mind. . .
This is a link to an Italian news site (in English). It appears to provide a fairly comprehensive summary on the stories concerning a permanent U.S. base presence in Iraq. I don’t know anything about his news source. Any way:
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m22213&l=i&size=1&hd=0
Thank God for Bush’s Patriot AcHow Patriot ActHelped Convict ManIn Baby-Food Ring
Mr. Jammal Faces 10 YearsAfter Terror-Probe TapesAre Used in Criminal TrialA 14-Minute Rant Against U.S.By JOHN D. MCKINNONApril 4, 2006; Page A1
Three months before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, police in Tempe, Ariz., began investigating information from Wal-Mart Stores Inc. suggesting that a local grocery wholesaler named Samih Jammal was part of an organized ring stealing baby formula from Wal-Mart stores and trucks.
t!
I wonder how we would react to an occupying power establishing a series of permanent bases on our territory.
AIPAC is still here.
AIPAC is still here busily turning America into a an Israeli controlled dictatorship, which does not fund its own problems, spends all its time and money dealing with the enemies Israel creates, and financing Israel’s expansion.
They’ve taken-over the White House, congress and our military.
Meanwhile, they continue to create so much instability in the Middle East that crude oil is within 70 dollars a barrel and gasoline is over 3 dollars a gallon, which is about to send GM into bankruptcacy. Along with the massive job-loss which accompanies that.
Ben, How would we react?
Just as we’re doing, allowing those “picnic ants” at AIPAC to walk-off with our lunch.
Bush and Rice and Rumsfeld represent the Zionists of Israel, not the United States.
As long as we’re going broke, I ought to spell it right:
AIPAC is still here busily turning America into an Israeli controlled dictatorship, which does not fund its own problems, spends all its time and money dealing with the enemies Israel creates, and financing Israel’s expansion.
They’ve taken-over the White House, congress and our military.
Meanwhile, they continue to create so much instability in the Middle East that crude oil is within 70 dollars a barrel and gasoline is over 3 dollars a gallon, which is about to send GM into bankruptcy. Along with the massive job-loss which accompanies that.
Ben, How would we react?
Just as we’re doing, allowing those “picnic ants” at AIPAC to walk-off with our lunch.
Have you lost your mind: The Patriot Act destroy the Constitution of the United States.
Thank God for that?
JR, WE’re following the PNAC plan to the “T”
Some people are considering that the administration actually has an exit plan for the Middle East. It’s called Armeggedon. Then the administrastion analysists can tabulate how many people are Raptured.
From a U.S. soldier stationed in Iraq: “The only building going on in Iraq is our bases.”
heartlander – 144,000. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.
RD…
They need bases for when they attack Iran!
Ben…144,000 is only the Jews.. there will be more of us!
sam – not according to the literalists.
ben..I hate arguing scripture on a non-realated thread, so I will just say that anyone who says that is quoting Revelation 7:1-8, but totally ignoring verse 9.
Revelation 9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Have a good day!
That’s not the only reason we need the bases: we had to abandon our bases in Saudi Arabia or risk another 9/11.
I would venture that any American who supported Iraq II but now claims not to know about US plans for enduring bases there is naive at best.
I expect the first attack on Iran will be logistic’d out of a US aircraft carrier, though, unless one or two of the enduring bases is completed within the next 4 months or so. That’s because Iran is expected to rataliate.
Date: likely late summer 2006
Do you think the Iranians are prepared for this?
More importantly, do you think the Democrats are prepared for this? ;)
(ANS: yes and no way)
Thanks sam …
We ARE turning in the bad guys! We routinely tell the resistence where the occupiers and their collaborators are.