The Arena Design Consortium, the architects chosen by Sedgwick County to design the downtown arena, released three exterior designs this morning. Option A (in rendering) is the most traditional, tying in with Old Town and existing brick buildings. Option B is a mix of contemporary curves on the south side and traditional brick on the north. Option C tries to be more unique, with an aviation-inspired roof. None of the three makes your jaw drop. What do you think?
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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88 Comments
Option C reminds me too much of the Coliseum. They could have done much more with a “wing” design. It’s far too angled and plain. Looks like a backwoods town arena.
Option A is very nice. I like the canopy and the angled orientation. The later makes the arena really standout in its setting.
Option B for me really has a “wow” factor. No, it didn’t make my jaw drop, but came as close as any arena has. B really has a major league feel to it. Its entrance is reminiscent of the Pepsi Center in Denver but unique enough to stand on its own. The skylight on the southwest corner would be very dramatic at night. Perhaps they could angle this design like option A to make the main entrance face southwest. The secondary entrance would then be more Old-Town friendly, on the northwest corner of the property. The drawback to doing this would require Ray’s and the Eagle Hall to be demolished.
Overall, very good designs, and I would be satisfied with either A or B. I’m moving if option C is chosen.
Yeah, I agree. I like B the most and would also like to see it angled like A.
Someone who posted a comment to the Eagle said that C looked like the KS Coliseum in a tuxedo. I have to laugh…
All the designs are great. They’ll make millions for the top contractors, hundreds of thousands for the top subcontractors and tens of thousands for workers.
It’s a short term tactical maneuver. It’s not a long-term strategic plan to reinvigorate Wichita’s economy, but it’s the best Wichitans can do, because Wichitans don’t know how to think strategically, so go for the short-term gain. It’s a long-term opportunity cost. You could have built a bio, info, nanotech research and education center to develop a 21st century economy, but Wichitans have never been known for foresight.
Cut our losses. Quit building it now.
Put the money in trust for worthwhile projects.
Can we put a below ground parking lot, like they do in Europe? Otherwise, I think the whole thing is going to be ill-planned.
Parking, Parking, and more Parking. And lets not forget the bottleneck at the exits of parking lots, and the on ramps of Kellogg. Oops, we already voted to build the arena, as usual we will complain and deal with the other issues after the arena is erected. I would settle for plan B with a canopy like in plan A.
All of the designs are disappointing to say the least. None of them qualify as a “signature” building of architectural significance.
Tim,You sound like intelligent Engineer, but comeon…A “signature” building in downtown Wichita? What would that look like to you?
Well done, County Commissioners!!! I wish your City counterparts would get their act together and build the Waterwalk using the same process that the County uses. While you are building upon incremental successes that will shortly result in a Downtown Destination Arena, the City will still be arguing about water fountains along the sidewalks. Some folks just can’t put aside politics for the greater good of the community, I guess.
Looks like traffic has been mentioned here a couple of times already. Not a big surprise, that is a major source of concern. However, the dooms day predictions of big city gridlock are probably overblown.
We’re talking about an arena that will, at its highest capacity, seat 17,000 people. It is located in a downtown that has 20,000 workers. Conclusion: arena traffic will closely resemble rush hour, which honestly folks, is NOTHING compared to big city gridlock. Now if we start cramming all of those people into cars at just a couple of closeby parking garages, your vehicle density become astronomical.
So we’re in a catch-22. If we want parking garages, we’re going to get 8,000 or so cars crammed into a very small area, all trying to use the same entrances and exits. If we want to use existing downtown parking, we all might have to walk a little farther but it will be a hell of a lot easier getting our cars in and out because we’re all spread out.
In this situation, we can’t have our cake and eat it to.
I’m with LH (we agree on something!!)
I’t a boondoggle. Cut the losses and get out now. It doesn’t really matter what it looks like.
If we don’t put parking in there will be no traffic problem because nobody will go. Everyone thinks they will get mugged every two feet downtown, esp. people in the burbs – oh wait, that is most of Wichita.
GMC
Gun shows will be events, you’ll be there. Having get togethers with in the lock and load lounge luxury box.
That could be you and yours hang out place to be. Set it up anyway you want to relax during other events. Where a shirt the BOONDOOGLE on it.
It replaces the Colesium and for that THANKS voters!
I like design B.
This is only the first Wichita improvement coming, some might find another town to live in the future if these projects are so worthless and you don’t want to participate. Move to Butler County, its better than Reno County.
heartlander,
Some of us have the future on our minds and in that fuzzy place, no matter the nano tech, gene splicing, info servers and satellite dishes, all powered by wind or solar energy, we’ll still like sports and concerts to attend.
This is a county structure. Business of every tech and design might find Wichita a better place to be for its workers just because this could be an entertaining city after business hours. The arena is just a place for people to gather and relax. We needed it, always will.
Its the end at all of what’s going to be built, but it does help Wichitans learn what social gathering often is like.
If 10 to 12,000 are there every month for something, it benefits this city.
Option B looks like the clear winner and it’s my favorite pick too.
:)
Go Wichita!
I don’t care what the thing looks like. I didn’t vote for it. I resent that I have to help pay for it. And I do not imagine I will ever see the inside of it.
The arena nuts might want to consider that. There is no small constituency that resents the hell outta the whole ordeal.The only way this thing will become any sort of “draw” or “landmark” will be if you paint it orange. Maybe with green polka dots.
Not the end at all of whats going to be built here…just the beginning.
Casinos and arenas for the sheeple? How stupid do they think we are?
V.L.R.B!!!
What’s entertaining to you JR? A social gathering experience? A group thing to do?
I like sports and concerts. Wichita is harmed not having a facility so events can come to town.
I am very pleased with design B! I like the light spire. That will prove to be a beacon to a great redevelopment for Wichita. Ever since I was in the Vote Yea commercial, I have been waiting to see what the arena may look like!
“I didn’t vote for it. I resent that I have to help pay for it. And I do not imagine I will ever see the inside of it. The arena nuts might want to consider that. There is no small constituency that resents the hell outta the whole ordeal.”
Well, yes, JR, I’ll consider the fact you may never step inside. I sincerely hope you consider the fact a hell of a lot of people around here do want the arena and will go to events there. Sometimes the price of living in a democracy is having to tolerate things you don’t like and paying for things you won’t use.
I’m not old enough to remember when Century II was built, but my parents tell me that there was a lot of opposition to it then, not unlike now with this arena. In time, Century II became probably the most beloved public facility in this city. I expect generations in the future will say the same thing about the arena as mine says about Century II–”how could anyone have been against building this??!!”
I say all this with the utmost respect for you, JR, of course. We have agreed on quite a few things on other threads and I sincerely value your opinion. I guess we’ll just have to disagree on this one, darn it!!
I agree with one of the above persons who liked B, but liked the angled/cata-wampus situating of A. I also like the rounded-look of A as well; but the Needle-point Tower of B is ‘cool’ as well as it’s Main Entrance orientation towards Kellogg.
Where’s JWink??
Winky, here Winky…
I was hoping for something a little more creative, like the arena over the river.
C is brutal, B is probably the best and A is o.k.
I think we should go with Option C. It shows no creativity or imagination and will fit right in with the rest of Wichita.
Lol XXX.
“C is brutal.”That’s a good way of saying it, koz, I like that.
KFG, I’m SERIOUS!!!! After all, who in Kansas could possibly resist the “prison” look?
We could call it “SuperMax”.
And when it fails misrably, we can convert it to a county jail.
I got an idea. Let’s build the arena underground. It would save a ton of money on heating and cooling, and we could build a huge parking lot on top of it.
It could double as a community bomb shelter when Bush starts a nuclear war.
Now you are thinking, X, then no one can complain about how it looks. And what’s another parking lot downtown?
Plan C needs an engine mounted to it so it can just take off. That plan is hideous! Has the ‘Spruce Goose’ lost a wing? B is just down right awesome, especially with the light tower. Hopefully the cost of cement won’t kill that added piece. A isn’t so bad and would be a good alternate to B.
I was wondering, with Airbus being in Old Town and their people desiging wings for the A380, did any of their engineers float any blueprints to the design team on plan C? By the way, shouldn’t it have winglets as an added touch? (no offense Airbus, we really do enjoy having you in town!! ;) ) Go with B, hands down!
Hello Shocker’07, the arena cheerleader: Sorry, I was looking at some hail damage in the area.
Regarding your three architectural renderings, Plan A looks like a white elephant, Plan B looks like a white elephant with a Joe Williams tower added and Plan C looks like a super-sized McDonalds!
Of course, the audacity of building a 1/4 billion dollar arena primarily for a larger ice skating rink, to replace the failed Ice Sports rink, for ice hockey and charge the regressive sales tax cost to the taxpayers with no provision, thats NO PROVISION to pay back any of the income to the taxpayers.
I admit I will always rue the day I didn’t go out, at my own expense of course, to hand out more flyers, visit churches, visit club luncheons, etc. to get only the few more votes to defeat this arena. Of course, your 200 or so pro-arena people got the $300,000 to support your pro-arena effort.
Regarding your vaunted arena promo group who went out to promote the arena before the election, I heard that so many doors were slammed in their faces, they fled to a local bar for the rest of that day.
I know a lot of people in Wichita, perhaps more than anyone else, and I estimate that now about 90% of those 165,000 voters or about 150,000 voters would vote against it. Just go up and down any street and you will find this is true. So I suggest we vote now that the voters understand the issue. I know I won’t get any takers on this.
Regarding providing NO parking — this is mickey mouse. You can’t depend on nearby neighbors to provide parking. Can you imagine Arrowhead stadium or the Royals baseball stadium not providing on- site parking. It seems to me that old Municipal (baseball) Stadium in Kansas City didn’t provide much city owned parking but that is why the new stadiums were needed (which I was highly involved in, incidentally.)
Of course, I’m not a fan of Ice Hockey stadiums, which is what this downtown arena essentially is, so I haven’t visited the new ones in various cities that have been mentioned. But I can’t imagine they are being built without providing on-site parking. In Wichita’s case, I presume the strategy is to build the arena and then issue revenue onds to fund parking lots somewhere in the area. Or bus the people in from satelite parking lots such as the Kansas Coliseum. This is all designed of course to squeeze every possible dollar from arena customers.
Regarding dispersal of storm water, of course its kind of hard to get excited about this in a drought period. As a Kansas historian, I recall records of a 200 year flood in 1844 where the Kansas River valley flooded from ridge to ridge. But a few years later, in 1858-59 not a drop of rain fell causing many Kansas pioneers to return east.
In the case of the proposed arena, a massive storm sewer pipe combined with an open swale or open box culvert should be built to the Arkansas River to drain the area. This is not a situation to Micky Mouse with. Lives and property in the downtown area are at stake here.
Regarding my estimate of 1/4 billion dollars as compared to your claim of a maximum of $184.5 million — I believe I will ultimately be on the conservative side if salaries of all the pro-arena people such as chamber of commerce, downtown incorporated, county and city employees, and many others I can’t think of now were to be added in. Also losses from lack of attendees to even pay heating/air conditioning and staff and utilities, etc.
Of course, we already know millions of dollars in future parking lots will somehow be charged to taxpayers probably through so-called revenue bonds but actually backed by the full faith and credit of the county government.
Another weak point is going to be who will determine the charges for using the arena and the skybox club rooms above. Actually they don’t have to charge because there will be no loan or mortgage to pay back courtesy of the taxpayers.
I might have more to add tomorrow or over the weekend. So hope you and your 200 pro-arena allies have a good day.
Building parking garages right next to the arena will cause gridlock. Typical Wichita, want the thing that will cause the problem we want to avoid. We’re blindly in pursuit of something that will actually harm us!! We’re like a city of lemmings!!
Traffic density is not a hard concept. Now if somebody were to propose parking garages dispersed around the arena several blocks away from the arena and eachother, that would be a good idea and would help to alleviate congestion. But, of course, that might mean we have to walk more than ten feet. Gasp!!
Oh I don’t mean to rain on your parade too hard Shockersteve. I remember debating you over the arena. You had a passion for it.I was a little tough on you then to see just how much. I’ll get back to that.Gotten to know ya better since then. Thing is I still aint zeroed your politics. Don’t tell me. I like that there are a few folks I can’t pin down. I know your no bushie. But that could just mean your a half ass decent and smarter than usual Republican. Again don’t tell me.
So then along comes Joe Williams and his tower. I don’t know about that idea. But he had a passion for it such that I thougt he needed a bigger voice. I warned him going in there would be negativity. I made sure he was ok with it before lending what ever voice I have to get him heard. I hope alot of us helped him get heard.
Along the way I find out he is another “arena nut” Not just that but a Wichita nut.
I was hard on your arena and I continue to be for a few reasons.I’ll save my personal ones for last.First? I know Wichita. Catch some of the comments Joe got on his tower? I rest my case.Parking is the issue that kills your arena before it rises. People in this town won’t walk 30 feet to anything if there isn’t something being given away. And the tickets at the arena won’t be free. (I’ll get back to that too)
Second? TIMINGYour arena is 25+ years too late and we are looking at what it will look like in 3 years. That makes it 30 years too late. I’ve been to OKC and KC and Denver. Arena, waterwalk whatever, Wichita cannot compete with them. They were building their arenas and other attractions while we in Wichita were arguing the merits of the Tripodal which sits in front of…..
Century II is in the news recently. City officials are wondering if it should be turned over to private control because it is not turning a big enough profit. Forget that such private control would eliminate local shows and exibitions and things like my 1984 high school graduation there. It’s all about the bottom line. The current events Re: Century II are the future for your arena no matter what it looks like.
Those are the “Wichita reasons” why I don’t like yourarena. I overstate my dislike for it to get you used to reality. Part of blogging is overstatement. Reach a little further than you feel to wake folks up.
My personal dislike is that promoters will make a little money for a little while to bring us events most folks will be unable and a few unwilling to afford(Count me among the unable to afford) at a venue that we all had to pay for. We will have paid for their stage and gave them their gate. But it won’t last and they will move on.
And then we will have a big useless building.
I admire you your zeal kid. And I don’t say “kid” in a demeaning way. I truly respect you. And I am absolutely floored by Joe Williams.
But you are tilting windmills here and you are too late. Wichita is dead. I worked at Beech(Raytheon) and it’s going. Boeing is going too in case you’re not up on your current events. I saw elsewhere JWink give you a longer list.
But the big thinker and warrior for causes lost in me wants to at least give a weigh in to your fantasy. So I will go look at the 3 designs and return with my favorite.—–
Save it. No one wants your negativity.
The above message is for JWink.
Ok
Lots of other posts while I composed my last.It was “Lost” and “Invasion” night.
Those posts would tend to reaffirm mine.
More?
I went (as promised) to look at the designs. I’ll keep my promise and look later. Too much time to see them.And that is illustrative too.
Mr. Gipr,
A “signature” building would be reminiscent of DIA, Camden Yards, the Louvre, etc., where the structure is the statement and no one needs to ask, “Where’s that?”, when viewing a photo of the facility. Hey, I’m not asking for the Louvre, but let’s have a little more creativity! Jeez.
The plans show all of the “excitement” of a PREFAB!! Epic Center is beginning to look positively DARING!
I must say, JWink, I am impressed. Here’s what I was thinking you’d say about each of the designs:
Option A: situating the arena at angle might interfere with the Earth’s rotation.
Option B: Much like using a magnifying glass to fry a bug, the generous amounts of glass on the southern entrance would refract sunlight and cause the entire city to go up in smoke.
Option C: Because of the unique “wing” design, a stiff easterly breeze could cause the arena to take flight and crash into a residential area later when the wind died down, killing hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians.
It’s not necessarily that your arguments are any less creative, just different.
No, JWink, the arena is not a replacement for the ice rink, it’s a replacement for the Coliseum. Since when does the arena have to pay back the residents? I thought we already went over (countless times) the fact arenas aren’t built to make money?
There were 800 vote yea volunteers, by the way, not 200. And by “volunteer,” I of course mean we were not paid. Like you, we went door-to-door at our own expense. Like you, I made flyers at my own expense. Sure, the campaign supplied others, but you weren’t the only one around here that sacrificed.
There sure were a lot of doors slammed in our faces. One of our female volunteers was even assaulted. Sure, you anti-arena people were real nice, gracious, open-minded folks who listened and tried to understand other’s viewpoints. (snicker).
It still cracks me up that you honestly (?) believe 90% of our voters are now suddenly against the arena. You’re kiddin’ me, right?? You got to be, because this is ridiculous. You know the saying about the squeeky wheel getting the grease, right? You’ve also heard about a “silent majority.” Most people who are for the arena aren’t making a big scene like the anti-arena folks because we won. There’s just a few crazy people like me around that feel someone needs to keep you sore losers in check. Besides, you guys are great entertainment.
You’re not a big fan of Ice Hockey arenas?? No way, I couldn’t tell…
You assume way too much, and you know what they say assuming does. Your assumptions about bond financing for parking garages flies in the face of the Ford Center in downtown OKC. A small parking garage is connected to that arena, but it is nowhere near adequate for the 18,000 that arena can pack in. I believe the garage is mainly for the hotel anyway. People park all over downtown OKC and take a short walk to the arena. And unlike Wichitans, they don’t whine about it like a bunch of spoiled brats.
I’m not Mickey Mousing with storm water, Winky. Again, like I’ve said numerous times before, the volume of water falling on the arena site will be the same no matter if the building is there or not. The arena may generate millions in downtown development, but it won’t generate rain. Maybe you’re just trying to scare people…
I don’t know exactly what our civic leaders pay scales are, but I doubt their work attributable to the arena project is worth 25-40 MILLION dollars. Is Bill Gates a county commissioner??? Maybe then it would cost that much.
You already “know” that these “future” parking lots will even be built, let alone that they will use bond financing??? Quick, I need next week’s lotto numbers!!!!
You honestly know nothing about luxury suites…A marketing company has been hired to determine the going market rate for the suites. They aren’t renting out houses inside the arena, Winky. They don’t charge per square foot based on construction costs. You silly guy.
Can’t wait for you too add more creative distortions and outright lies to this blog.
On a serious note, you mentioned the hailstorm so I hope you made it through alright. I understand a lot of people had their cars and roofs pretty banged up.
You’re not raining on my parade, JR. Don’t worry. It’s been only sunny days since the night of Nov 2 2004.
“But that could just mean your … smarter than usual Republican.” That’s not saying much, is it??? :-) Seriously, it’s hard to pin down my politics because I try to take the best from both parties instead of being some kind of extremist. I believe the truth in most issues usually lies somewhere in the middle.
Joe is a hell of a guy, isn’t he? His posts and his ideas are always top notch.
Oh, believe me I recognize the fact people around here expect to be able to park at the front door anywhere they go. I’m also hopeful that in order to experience a concert or sporting event at the arena, they will be forced to walk a few blocks. By doing so, I think they will realize it’s not all that bad. They might even enjoy the whole experience of being downtown, mingling with other people anticipating a great concert or energized after a big win. I know that’s hoping A LOT, and it’s a big risk, but I think it’s a chance worth taking.
Agreed, we drug our heels for WAY too long around here and let Wichita fall behind competing midwestern cities. Honestly, did anything productive happen here in the ’70s, ’80s or early ’90s? I remember the 90s and the later part of the 80s, but I sure don’t remember anything going on around here. Seems like after some home runs in the 60s like Century II, we became complacent and thought we were finished building a great city. But I don’t think all this means we just give up now. Let’s not cut our losses, close up shop, and all move to Denver (I say that with hesitation actually because Denver is awfully tempting…). We’re not dead yet, there are still some signs of life. The arena campaign and downtown redevelopment have ignited an energy here I have never felt before in my short life. Joe’s tower post is evidence of that. There’s some naysayers on there, you have to expect that, but there are a lot more positive folks who passionately believe in this city.
I’m beginning to realize what you said about blogging. When I first came to this blog, I came out firing with both barrels, but I think I also came across as a jackass. JWink does a phenomenal job of overly exaggerating to make a point but not sounding like he’s constantly pissed off. That’s a good way to be! Of course, a good scrap is healthy every now and then, so for me there’s always KCL. :)
What you said about promoters is true at both the Coliseum and Century II. It’s naive to think ticket prices won’t go up a little, so I’m not saying that. But to assume ticket prices will skyrocket and price the entire middle class out of events ignores what is going on in cities with similar new arenas. Ticket prices in those arenas are generally comparable to the Coliseum, considering it doesn’t have loge seating, luxury suites or box seats.
I’m glad you mentioned Lost. I forgot to tape it so I need to see if a buddy of mine tivo’d it.
Thanks for the posts JR. If you say you like option C I know you’re lying!! :)
Has anyone figured out what each indiviual in this county is being charged once the full amount for sales tax is done?
Do all of you complaining about “paying” for this much needed structure, want money back?
Vow never to step foot in the arena even on “free” days?
There is no changing minds, right, from today’s staunch disagreement to the idea.
I know Wichita. It was dead in the 80’s downtown, when the airline industry here was at its heights in jobs.
Shifting economics have improved this city moderately. Malls built. National retailers in those malls.More shift of economics from jobs at the airplane companies, we’ll have better participation with workers in different jobs. That means a better source of incomes from a variety of places.
To compete as a city in this regional area, we need arena’s and stadiums. Ice rinks are retail business the city isn’t supposed to own. We have retail museums struggling.
There is need to create a group gathering process to show as citizens we’re all in this city together. More group interaction, its possible people will try to help other facilities, like the museums to prosper.
This is what people do for entertainment. Maybe some should drop their cable connection or satellite dish watching down some hours and get out in this city to experience it.
This city will be better in the years ahead, we just have to build some things.
The key indicator if this city is dead, look at new homes being constructed and sales. This city is growing and will only get larger.
Taking another look at B (my overall choice), I do have one problem with it. They’ve tried to avoid going the ’sea of concrete’ route, yet right in front of it is a parking lot.
I’d like to see something more like what’s in front of the Alltel Arena. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nlr_alltel_arena_004_l.jpg )
I like option B.
I am not real impressed with any of the designs, but if I had to choose I would pick B. Option A is okay and option C is horrendous. I definitely like the lighted spire on option B. That part of the design shall not be sacrificed. I just expected more out of the architectural renderings, but come to think of it, the designs of the Qwest center in Omaha and especially the Ford center in OKC are not any better.
I would also like to make a few comments concerning all of the anti-arena citizens. Do any of you people want to do anything to improve the quality of life in your city? It seems as if you don’t give a squat. Yeah, in a sense Wichita is dead and you are the very people that are responsible for this. You are part of the reason that large homegrown corporations like Pizza Hut move out of Wichita. You are probably the same pessimists that voted against the school bond issue. Sure, you people often raise valid ponts but you rarely offer a solution, and it’s sad.
As for the parking problems; oh wait there are none. There are plenty of parking spaces within a half mile radius of the arena. One -half mile??? Yeah a half mile can be walked in ten minutes easy. Just ask any New Yorker; they walk several miles everyday. No, traffic will not be gridlock, and besides, I don’t think many Wichitans know what traffic gridlock is. Many believe Kellogg during rush hour is gridlock. WRONG!! The 405 in Los Angeles is gridlock not downtown Wichita, Kansas under any circumstances.
The downtown arena is going to be HUGE for Wichita!!!! And the truth can only be told with time…
Joe, that was well said.
They should look at new parking ideas like they use in Germany. See the picture.. talk about German efficiency!!The actual space that the facility occupies is approximately 20% of a comparable facility with the traditional design that is used in the US. Not only is the German structure less expensive to build, but vehicles are also “retrieved” in less time and without the potential of being damaged by an attendant.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/samuel53/detail?.dir=10b3&.dnm=16f3re2.jpg&.src=ph
Does anybody have a link for how much money Century II earns or loses each year?
I don’t know why we’re arguing on which proposal will be chosen.
The one that will get chosen is the one that funnels the most tax-payer money to big business concerns, as always.
It’s the real “welfare” scandal that the right-wing refuses to talk about–welfare for the rich.
Does anybody have a link for how much money Century II earns or loses each year?
I don’t know why we’re arguing on which proposal will be chosen.
The one that will get chosen is the one that funnels the most tax-payer money to big business concerns, as always.
It’s the real “welfare” scandal that the right-wing refuses to talk about–welfare for the rich.
Traffic can be readily handled with a handful of traffic cops directing traffic onto Kellogg and via 1st onto the Canal Route. A few other egress routes can be added out of downtown. I agree with Joe – what we cann traffic here is nothing – but I would have used the Dan Ryan in Chicago for comparison.
ksam,That’s an interesting pic. I’m really intrigued by it and wonder how it works. I’m not so sure that it would save a lot of time with thousands of people leaving a large event at the same time, but it probably does serve it’s purpose well.
NoJoCo..Here is another parking system out there.. they just need to do a little research.http://www.robopark.com/
Someone could construct one of these nearby and probably make a fortune in paid parking!
One parking option would be to have many dispersed satellite lots and trolley-car shuttles. The shuttles would take time to get to the lots. This would alleviate instant-departure traffic congestion.
Having visited the Brickyard in OKC–which is lovely– I don’t think that the Ford Center arena is the anchor, in the way our arena is envisioned. (With NBA basketball, Ford’s importance has skyrocketed, but if the Hornets go back to NO, then it will be a short-lived phenomenon.)
Here is what I mean: look at the Brickyard’s construction timeline dating back to the early90’s: they first built a canal in the old warehouse district, and started putting in shops and restaurants along the waterfront. Then they builta gorgeous Camden Yard-inspired baseball stadium. They incorporated some green space for strolling and pickniking. Then they built a really classy music hall. Ford Center came last–after people were already coming to Bricktown. They also built a Bass Pro Outdoor World, that like Cabela’s, isn’t just a store, it’s an entertainment extravaganza. It has hunting and fishing workshops. Huge aquaria. If you go to one of these stores, you don’t just run in to buy something, you spend three hours talking to expert outdoorsmen and having fun.
When we went to OKC two years ago, we first went to the tropical conservatory, which is this huge horizontal-tube greenhouse. It’s AMAZING. Then we drove up north to the Omniplex, let the kids play, saw a planetarium show, then an IMAX film. Then we went back to Bricktown for a fun cajun dinner sitting on a deck overlooking the canal. Our waiter was busy, but we had repeated conversational interludes with him.
Then we saw a baseball game, then drove back home. I missed a later trip with the in-laws where they spent most of the day at the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum–a world-class research and edutainment center– before going to Bricktown for dinner. They had a blast.
In my opinion, and like JR and some others have previously admitted, I sometimes make hyperbolic statements to stir up responses. But in this case, I truly think that Wichita doesn’t have the “firepower” (money, population size) or the peculiar kind of creativity needed to execute entertainment and edutainment well. It’s a gift. I don’t have it, but I recognize it. I don’t see it here. Maybe it’s coming in.
For example, based on my experience going to a lot of places, I think that putting an IMAX theater in Exploration Place should have been a first priority. OKC, Tulsa, KC, Colorado Springs and Omaha have IMAX’s. Just because there’s one 60 miles away in Hutch doesn’t mean Wichita shouldn’t have one. Cyberdome is interesting, but it doesn’t have the power to draw the same local patrons in again and again on a regular basis. In IMAX cities, you have dedicated IMIES who see every new film that comes out. That’s true in Hutch, but in Wichita you’d have a vastly larger fan base.
In retailing and restaurateuring the developers and consumers have already voted: mid-price stores and restaurants are clustered well west and well east of downtown, and upscale stores and restaurants are clustering between Rock and Greenwich, and Kellogg and K-96. Maybe an arena can reverse these forces, or create a third retailing nucleus.
But I’m not convinced. They’re building some really impressive things at the Waterfront for example, and I personally don’t think development there is going to be halted to redirect capital into gentrifying the old downtown. But I could be wrong. Some cities have done nice jobs doing this, so it can be done. But it isn’t a slam dunk.
Anyway, I’ll be moving to OP later this year, so I really don’t have a horse in this race. I’ve already paid my share of the arena’s construction cost, but won’t be using the facility. I think my money, and other Sedgwick County consumers’ could have been used more wisely, for this region’s future prosperity, but it’s not my call. I hope that things work out.
Traffic control – after an event. Kellog ‘through’ traffic should be light so taking out a lane on the Flyover should not be a problem. Set traffic cones on the Flyover to ‘merge’ cross-town traffic into the two left lanes; freeing up the right-hand lane. This way traffic being routed up the ramps from the Central Business District will have easy merge going either east or west. Once traffic is on the freeway the road’s capacity is plenty sufficient.
Open another ‘exit path’ eastward toward Washington Street (English onder the tracks south of Cox? not sure). Washington provides another approach to Kellogg.
Across the River to McLean noth and south.
East on one-way First St to the canal Route.
The key is to have enough traffic cops to move traffic from the immediate downtown area onto the arterials. Then it will be clear sailing.
I think you’re right on with your traffic cop ideas Ben. I also think it would be a good idea for the county to develop a downtown parking guide, a map so to speak, of existing parking facilities downtown. There is enough existing parking downtown, but I don’t think people realize it, so they will be tempted to try to find the closest parking available. However, if they know that BofA’s garage is free at night maybe some people will go there. Perhaps others will park in Old Town. Others may choose the Garvey Center if they knew its garage was free after hours.
Mail this to every household in the county and provide generous copies in the arena, the courthouse, local Dillons stores, to sherrifs officers, etc. Blanket this town with these maps so no one can possibly go without one. It’s imperative that the county provides as much assistance as it can for the first few arena events since the concepts of going downtown and walking more than 10 feet to our destination are so hard for Wichitans to grasp.
This will be a major cultural change to many of us.
Ok
They put pitures on the paper so I have fulflled my promise to look.
B is the most eye pleasing. But look at all that wasted space around B. How many hundreds of cars could you put on that “patio”? And what is the point of the rather outsized lobby? B also provides no visible overhang for smokers who will I am sure be exiled outside in that little space where everyone is going in.
One thing is shown true to life in these pictures. Look at the parking lots. Full. (for a year or two) Now look out past the parking lots. See any people out there hiking in from parking places unknow?
I think the artist here made a happy accident. So doing he made art predict fact.
I thought that the pictures showing parking lots far smaller than Town West or Town East parking lots were hilarious.
C is really REALLY ugly. I mean I know they were trying to do an aviation tribute but that is awful. If you look really close at the smaller ground level picture of C, alot of folks are leaving! I guess they agree!
I got an idea from C though. Look at that nice flat roof. Reinforce it and park cars up there.
Parking in Old Town might be a problem. How will the bars etc react to having their lots filled up by people going to an event? Yes, they might stop for a drink after but they will tie up spaces for a lot of time in between.
The best parking option I think will be if they are able to get access to ‘office’ parking at night.
Isn’t there a big parking lot across the tracks near Union Station. Why can’t the county build walkways over the RR tracks and maybe use the extra space by Union Station for parking since Cox is moving out.
Leave it to the antiarena people to find everything negative about the drawings.JR.where is this huge patio that you talk about in option B.
I’m not sure there are parking issues in Old Town that arena patrons would aggrivate. I’m not a proprietor in Old Town but I would think the foot traffic would be well worth sacrificing some parking stalls. Old Town on a weeknight can sometimes be a lonely place, so the added activity from a weeknight concert or game will go a long way to build up the area.
Yes, “office” parking is essential. I believe it was the WDDC that polled its members and asked if their parking lots/garages would be available for arena events and most said yes, but it might be a good idea to turn any gentlemen’s agreements into written agreements. Maybe the city could provide incentives for current lot/garage operators to drop fees on event nights. A comprehensive plan like this might also encourage developers to build new private lots and garages to make the entire downtown area more attractive to business and residents. Or maybe I’m just getting carried away with this…
The parking across the tracks I think belongs to Protection One. Some perhaps to Cox. You are correct, perhaps that could be accessed.
Another possibility would be to ‘beef up’ the Q Line and access parking at the City and County buildings.
“Wasted space” JR? That’s a good one. Parkland, green areas, plazas, anything to make the city more open and attractive is a good waste of space and tax money. After all, we could have spent that money hiring more cops to police a city that is known for being the Detroit of the midwest. Or we could have used that money to help the homeless, since Wichita ranks right up there with Ethiopia in homeless population. The county should have realized better ways it could have spent that money, not making our community a better place and more attractive place to live. They should be ashamed of themselves.
(Today’s sarcasm threat level: orange/high)
The Pepsi Center in Denver has a pedestrian bridge over railroad tracks that divide nearby parking lots. I’m sure something similar could be done here.
With the transit center across the street from our arena, NOT having trolley service running downtown before and after an event would be incredibly stupid. If anyone goes to the design open houses, they really need to stress this to the county officials.
“NOT having trolley service running downtown before and after an event would be incredibly stupid.”
Agreed 100%! Perhaps you haven’t noticed that we currently have no bus service for anyone who works overtime at their jobs.
C—,is a throw-away. Stupid and horrible idea!! A building designed to resemble a flap on an airplane, to commerate, the aviation industry in Wichita. This must be the least expensive option. (Sad option.)
B—, looks the best to me, upon viewing the pictures. However, I like the diagonal setting of optionA.
You are NOT taking away MY parking!!!
I like B Because it looks like a pac man
Shocker07:
“Since when does the arena have to pay back the residents? I thought we already went over (countless times) the fact arenas aren’t built to make money.”
This statement says it all.
If not, just what is it for? If you want to build a boondoggle on your own dime, go right ahead. But it appears you want to build a losing operation on MY dime.
That’s not OK.
Government serves the residents, remember? Or is supposed to. Here, however, it serves the promoters and builders/developers. Not the residents.
Look, I don’t live in Wichita (but close, so I shop there, meaning my tax dollars are paying too). The biggest problem appears to be that we are putting the cart before the horse. We have an arena (or will) without commitment for a primary tenant to be in it. “If you build it, they will come” is a movie line, guys. It’s not a plan for economic development.
You have to remember GMC70 that the majority of the voting public did vote for it in, so in a sense, yes the residence got what they wanted.
Nobody claims that “build it and they will come”. The downtown arena is to replace the Kansas Colisuem. End of story.
If you think that the sales taxes are high, you should see what it is like in many other places around Kansas. Believe it or not, with the arena sales tax, Sedgwick County is still lower than most of the state. So it’s not hurting you.
There is no county in Kansas that has a higher sales tax rate than Sedgwick County, as of February, 2006.
There are some cities or other jurisdictions that have a higher tax rate than Sedgwick County, but no county does.
I would take exception with the claim that just because somewhere else has higher taxes, then our taxes don’t hurt us. Have we considered all the things that might have been done, had people not paid so much tax?
Newsflash GMC, public facilities aren’t built to turn a profit. Government does not exist to make money, it exists to provide services. The arena will provide a service to the citizens of Wichita. The economic benefits the arena will provide are indirect, in the form of increased tax collections from new development around it. This debate is just as old as the issue itself. It has been discussed at length on the message boards and on the blogs. We honestly should not be continuing this debate because we are just beating a dead horse here.
Btw, the arena’s primary tenant currently is the Wichita Thunder. There is, of course, the possibility that Wichita would be able to attract perhaps an arena football or NBADL team. But as I understood it when it was explained to me by the sports commission, these leagues basically told us, “Come back and see us when you have a new arena.” They wouldn’t even consider us with the Coliseum or without voter approval of the new arena. Now that the arena has passed, I wouldn’t be surprised if the sports commission has opened a dialogue with either of these leagues, but this process takes time. Be patient.
NBADL? Not familiar with that one; what is it?
Oh, sorry Ben. NBADL=NBA Developmental League. Kinda like AAA minor league basketball, it’s owned by the NBA. Here’s the website:http://www.nba.com/dleague/
I think it’s relatively new, so there aren’t many times right now, around ten I think. There are closeby teams in Little Rock and Tulsa so there would be natural rivals. Basketball is a big deal in Wichita so I bet a team would be a good fit here.
Btw, it seems like we don’t have a bus service for anyone, let alone the folks who work overtime!!
Thanks. I wonder if there might be a WNBA possibility.
While I have been very much a skeptic I do want to see this thing work – after all it is my money involved.
We are of a like mind on the good of public facilities Shocker. I am all in favor of tax collection for community enahancement.
But to my mind the arena is not a public facility. The events there will not be free. They will be outside the means of a large number in this community to afford. The community will get only a small portion of the gate. No this is no public facility. A park is a public facility. This is a public venue for private commercial enterprise.
A Thunder game, while entertaining for you does not make Wichita a better place to live.
I’d have less trouble with your arena had it been financed by property or luxury taxes. But it’s not too late. If you want to make this thing a true enhancement for all the public, then collect luxury taxes to subsidize the price of admission to events. Make the tickets as cheap as possible. (It’s working for the airport!) That will keep the thing running. And it would be good for Wichita to have a person from Vicridge rubbing elbows with someone from Oaklawn.
(You thought some folks upthread were uptight? After they read that they will have a stroke!)
Build B. But eliminate the pretty patio. Park those cars right up by the door. Wichita is what it is. Small steps my friend. Small steps.
Ben–WNBA teams are ALWAYS located in a city that already has an NBA franchise. Like Houston and San Antonio in Tx. Austin is one of the five hotbeds of women’s basketball attendance, and yet they cant get a WNBA team because no NBA franchise. The “austin” team is in San Antonio now. Of course, there was always my personal favorite, the HOUSTON COMETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shocker:
If this were a sewer facility, or a water treatment plant, or road, etc. I’d agree with you; gov’t doesn’t exist to turn a profit.
But it’s none of those things. Instead, as JR points out (we agree on something!!) it’s for private profit, and for private entertainment. While it is a public building, it is not a public facility in the classic sense. If I don’t go to Thunder games, I don’t benefit, at least in any direct sense. AS JR puts it, it is a “public venue for private commercial enterprise.” And yes, beyond the means of many in Wichita to attend.
And you’ve made my point; teams saying “build it and we’ll think about it” is not “We’ll commit to Wichita conditioned upon building the arena.”
And it is not a “replacement for the Colliseum; on the contrary, there is still debate, as I understand it, as to just what to do with the Colliseum when this is built. It MAY be torn down, but that’s not decided.
Look – the builders and developers sold the county on this, for THEIR benefit. Have no illusions that they are building this for Wichita; they are building for their OWN benefit. County officials want something with their names on the plaque.
This is about builders’ profits and politicians legacy. It’s never really been about Wichita’s benefit.
Call me cynical. Or realistic.
A tad cynical, GMC, but probably closer than any public official will admit.
What we’re going to end up with is a nice building that will spur some – but not all as represented – downtown redevelopment around an arena too small in terms of seating to attract what officials want.
Not to mention an arena that’s going to blast well over budget.
JR, so to be a public facility it has to be free? So Century II is not a public facility? Neither is the zoo, cowtown, EP? Interesting.
Maybe my expectations are too low, but when the county provides only the venue and a private organization provides the actual event, I expect to pay BOTH for the entertainment AND the venue in which to enjoy the entertainment. I don’t believe in a free lunch. If the county owned the Thunder, then my expectations may be different. Of course, you could say in this situation its still a wash because tax money would support BOTH the venue and the entertainment.
I disagree that ticket prices will be out of range for a “large” number of Wichitans. I think ticket prices will be out of range for a few Wichitans, as they are now. This arena won’t exclude the middle class just as other arenas have not done it elsewhere. To expect something different out of our arena here makes no sense. I think there is A LOT of misplaced fear about this arena because so many people don’t really understand how these facilities operate. If they took the time to find out, they would discover there’s nothing to be afraid of. Or maybe it’s just the fear of change, which there is no remedy for except for change itself.
GMC, I don’t think you’d get a minor league team to commit to a city contingent upon a new arena. It is not uncommon for minor league arenas and stadiums to be built with no firm or conditional commitments. Corpus Christi and Fayetville immediately come to my mind.
The Arena is a replacement for the Coliseum in the sense that all major concerts and sporting events will be held downtown. If the Coliseum remains, it would be for smaller events and dirt events such as rodeos. Just speculation but I am willing to bet this is what the county will do.
The builders and developers did not sell us anything. To make a point, there are no developers. NO PRIVATE ORGANIZATION WILL DIRECTLY BENEFIT FINANCIALLY FROM THE NEW ARENA. Please, GMC, enlighten us as to who these phantom developers are. Besides, I thought you wanted developers to build the arena so tax money wouldn’t be used??? Your arguments are not consistent.
As far as the builders, no one is guaranteed they will get the contract. The arena will be an open bidding process just like any other project. Any number of construction companies could win the contract, whether they donated to the arena campaign or not.
“NO PRIVATE ORGANIZATION WILL DIRECTLY BENEFIT FINANCIALLY FROM THE NEW ARENA.”
Bulllshit. People act in their own self-interst. Just because the connections are not in public does not mean they are not there.
Am I cynical? Absolutely.
I tend to agree with GMC but hope that Shocker is right.
As for a private organization that stands to gain – try Key Construction, Fahnestock, Cornejo for just a few.
Shocker – GMC IS consistent. When he stated that he “wanted developers to build the arena so tax money wouldn’t be used” that clearly indicated they should use THEIR money, not taxes.
GMC
My efforts will eventually help the Coliseum be torn down or sold. The county isn’t going to be paying for both facilities.
Their cost in my future proposed facility that will do “dirt” shows is less than what they pay for in the Coliseum.
I don’t know what the argument is. Wichita needed an improved arena facilty. The Coliseum had to be fixed or replaced.
Who benefits from the construction is offset by the jobs created.
Bids go out for construction work. Is it a fair process?
I hope by the time my projects are finalized, a better variety of contractors are available or I’ll help create new ones. Local labor, legal identity people. No drugs or alcohol abusers.
I don’t have friends in the current contractor world that has built a lot of Wichita
Stadiums, arena’s better the community and you want them profitable or exciting places to visit.
The problem is building these kind of facilities tax money has to be used. It’s the complete investment in the project by business and government to make it happen.
If you don’t support it by buying tickets, its partially your fault that the project fails.
What you get out of it is social entertainment, the happiness in others who attend events you don’t go to. You might get along with more people just because.
Shocker07, in Jr’s defense, the Arena is going to be too expensive for a lot of people in Wichita. Financially, I’m middle, probably upper middle class. I’m single, so there’s only one income in my household. If I take someone out for dinner and a concert, it gets VERY expensive. If you figure $40 at a nice restaraunt, $100 for 2 concert tickets at the Arena, and add another $20 for drinks (may include a cover charge) after the consert, That’s a large chunk of change for an evening’s entertainment. I don’t think we can reject JR’s opinion out of hand. Venues even at the Coloseum have gotten out of hand. Because of high ticket prices, I haven’t been to a concert in about 7 years.
XXX,Of course ticket prices got out of hand. But I compared Rascall Flatts tickets in Des Moines to Wichita and they were egual, of course that was the cheap tickets. I think that if you like the entertainer you will go see his concert. Concerts are not like sporting events where you go at least once a week. I have been to one concert at the Coliseum and that has been two years ago and I payed $35 a ticket. Of course the Coliseum can not draw good artists that I want to see. I tend to go to concerts at the Orpheum they are a lot cheaper.
I wanted to see Pavorati when he was in town. The tickets I wanted (not the best) were $200.
I don’t think so.
Hey XXX,
I’m sure, well, maybe…The Arena will have membership plans. Be a member and pay less for event tickets, first choice of seating.
What do you get for a membership after that, I don’t know. I’m not on the Arena staff. Maybe the membership plan will offer other events around town ticket price reduced or free.
It’s a drain on some person’s monthly financies but I’m thinking people are going need to choose lifestyle in coming years.
Satellite dish, cable, people benefit with internet connection but I’m never paying for high speed over dial-up just because of cost.
I don’t have cable or satellite dish, don’t think I’ll ever need them.
People have boats and only use them 4 months out a year. Get friends together and buy interest in a boat. It’s less money used for that and possibly going to more concerts or games.
Event tickets cost and taking a family out gets pricey. What choice will people make for their entertainment.
GMC, to expect developers to foot the entire bill of an arena in Wichita Kansas is one of the most ludicrous concepts I have ever heard. This expectation ignores the reality of arena economics, as just a handful of large private arenas exist in North America, and they all exist in some of the largest cities in North America. If we want an arena here, we will HAVE to use tax money, period. There is no option. Omaha used tax money, as did Little Rock, OKC, Tulsa, etc.
I won’t argue that you are cynical, but I will say that it is unfortunate. Life is too short to live in a constant state of negativity. I wish you could see the world for how it really is: a mixture of a little good with a little bad, but there is good. There is a lot of good.
Don’t ignore the fact that the construction contract will be awarded to the company that provides the lowest bid. To just blindly assume that there is some sort of conspiracy to award Key the contract is absurd. Let’s withhold our judgment until the process is complete at least. If you’ve ever been selected for jury duty, I’ll bet you were the lawyer’s worst nightmare.
XXX, look closely at our arguments. You guys are saying the arena will be too expensive and are pointing out PAST ticket prices. I’m agreeing to the point that the arena will not significantly change the current ticket pricing structure. Anyone who is priced out of the market right now will continue to be priced out in the future. Keith brought up the Rascal Flatts concert here recently, which SOLD OUT. I really doubt the Coliseum was full of 12,000 millionaires. I also know for a fact Thunder game goers are not all millionaires. I’ll agree that ticket prices at least for concerts are insane, but many people who really want to go are able to go. Besides, ticket prices are not a reflection of the venue but of the promoter and/or the act. Don’t blame the arena.