Could President Bush have forgotten that he authorized the leak that led to the release of the name of CIA agent Valerie Plame to the media, and then to a special prosecutor’s investigation and the jailing of reporter Judith Miller? Court papers related to the grand jury testimony of Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s former chief of staff, point the finger not only at Cheney but at Bush. If the president really did authorize the leak, Bush’s earlier comments on this issue now look clueless or disingenuous, if not outright dishonest, including when he said in fall 2003 that he had “no idea” whether the leakers would ever be identified and that “if the person has violated the law, the person will be taken care of.” As this mystery continues to reveal itself, one lesson about leaking needs to be learned: Don’t complain about it if you’re doing it.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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234 Comments
“Bush’s earlier comments on this issue now look clueless or disingenuous.”
This is new, how?
I think his evil twin skippy did it!
I cant wait for nathan to tell us how the preznit didnt lie to us… again.
Do you suppose we will argue the meaning of lie?
Bush told us that anyone involved in the leak would be fired. Time for Bush to fire himself!
If an election were held today, I don’t thing Bush could beat Fred Phelps.
Let’s see. Fred protests military funerals but Bush cheers them on.
He’s got a new catch-phrase now: my lawyers said I could it.
I’ve got one for him: you’re screwed, Mr. President. And your precious lawyers will save their own asses even if it means feeding you to the wolves.
Think about it, George. Time to fish or cut bait.—–
No Ben,
I think Nathan will argue that bush’s words were more to the effect that such a person wouldn’t be working in his administration. Now it gets complicated….
Technically, bush is not working in his administration.
He is Presiding over it.
But! While this gymnastic in logic does let bush off the hook, it does not spare Cheney or Rove, who by bush’s OWN WORDS must now go.
“It depends on how the meaning of ‘lie’ lies.”
Fred protests funerals but bushlies CAUSE them.
Wait! What’s that sound I hear from the right side of the blog?
Oh, it’s SILENCE.
My bad.
Anyone wanna bet on the timing of the first ” this is nothing but a hateful bush hate fest” post?
followed quickly by the “straw man” meme and the….
ANGRY LIBERAL WOMAN post…
Here’s how I think the Wingnut rationalization will go.
Bush vs. Clinton on Presidential lying: NOT THE SAME THING!
Clinton: lying about sex = treason = impeachment
Bush: lying about ‘national security’ = ‘good of American people’ = Executive perogative
IOKIYAR
Censure is too good for George W. Bush. So is impeachment. I’m thinking incarceration and solitary confinement, Klaus Barbie-style.
First Tom DeLay, and now the Pinochet of the Potomac.
This has been a productive week, ladies and gentlemen.
KFG, I bet it will happen in the next ten posts. Name your terms.
JR, That last post was toooooo much!!! I don’t usually, but I truly was, ROTFLMAO!!!
Wait! Look over there! It’s Cynthia McKinney the racist! Quick, look!
If it is true, I find it despicable. Sorry, if you are looking for rationalization or “spin”.
I won’t be jumping up and down with glee, either.
Sorry DD, I have the positive bet. You have to take the negative :)
CF, and I mean this as the highest of compliments, are you sure you are not the rude pundit? You are just as funny and good with words!
I noticed Cynthia apologized today, which is what many people were calling for on the “I hate Cynthia” thread, to borrow a phrase from the bushies.
When do supposed the people who attacked her in the media will apologize? Or the capital cop? Or will there just be dead silence since there is no need to distract anyone from the news of tom delay.
But then there is the little problem scooter created for the preznit in the media today.
Hmmmm… look for another bright and shiney object, coming soon to a television near you!
Can it be? Even raptor has had enough?
I gotta better bet for you all.
What other of the usual bush apologists will this last be just too much for. I say Joe Williams
I watch a lot of “cop shows” on TV – CSI, Criminal Minds, Law/Order etc. It is always fun to watch the little guys turn on their bosses for a better deal.
Same thing seems to be happening here as the little rats turn on the big rats.
raptor – “told ya so”
Fingers crossed, fingers crossed, fingers crossed…
You have to admire Joe Wilson, willing to take on the U.S. Govt. for the truth and his woman. Epitomizes what an American should be, Bush- the opposite extreme.
Very true steve. It’s too bad Powell lacks the integrity.
KFG:”Hmmmm… look for another bright and shiney object, coming soon to a television near you!”
Will criminal charges against McKinney be shiny enough? They may happen according to NPR.
I agree with Rage, too, the gospel according to Judas does sound interesting. I’ve always wondered if the whole deal was pre-ordained, why did Judas have to draw such a crappy card. This book looks at it differently, I guess.
Poor Scott McClellan, a whole press briefing in the morning consisting of “Like I said before, I can’t comment on an ongoing investigation”!
‘had “no idea” whether the leakers would ever be identified and that “if the person has violated the law, the person will be taken care of.”’For the first, he had no idea he’d ever be caught, after all leaks happen all the time in Washington.For the second, When he leaves office, I’m sure he’ll be well taken care of!
I guess that all those years of abusing booze and coke have adversely affected shrub’s memory? I never thought that I would despise anyone more than the traitor clinton but I was wrong!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Silly JR there is a much easier answer-Bush doesn’t do any work as president, anyway. He can stay president and continue to not work for the administration. The only thing I can tell he has been doing since his reelection is continuing to campaign (right now it is against low poll numbers) and clearing brush out in Crawford.
I can see the Wingnuts coming back and complaining about us being happy the Bush house of cards is falling. But, you know we’re only laughing to keep from crying that American politics has sunk this low.
Amazingly perceptive, but perhaps a little behind the curve, JR. Joe already dissed Bush, and not very long ago.
How much you want to bet the Capitol Police would have been content to accept her apology and call it a day?
Nope, the White House smelled fresh meat at the very time they KNOW they needed a distraction. And they’ve always hated McKinney, anyway. . . .
No wonder Pat Roberts didn’t want to touch a Plame investigation with a ten foot pole, he probably knew the scuttle butt even back then!
This pdf from Steven Aftergood outlines Fitzgerald’s arguments against Libby’s gray-mail discovery requests:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/libby/us040506.pdf
This link, also from Steven Aftergood, is to a story that provides a little more details on the Libby story today:
http://nysun.com/timesleak.php
Unfortunately, our “long national nightmare” promises to continue for years to come, long after we get rid of these creeps.
“Well, LOOK at the time! We really MUST be going now! Oh, by the way, I left a couple wars in your parlor, and took a baseball bat to some homeless folks sleeping in the alley. Oh, and I think I left some enemy combatants in your cellar–you really oughta do something about that smell! Phew!You know how it goes!”
“Oh, and I charged $4 trillion dollars on your credit card! I knew you wouldn’t mind! Ta-ta!”
“Mind if I go out the back way? There’s a large angry crowd in front that wants to talk to you. . .”
What is wrong with you people?!?! CLINTON!!!! CLINTON!RED ALERT!!! The terrorists are coming to get us! How can you even take time to think about Bush lying and giving away classified information when Clinton stained a dress? Quick! look over there! Is that a terrorist sneaking up behind us?
Interesting chain of events that, if I read correctly (very briefly at this point), lead eventually to the Libby–>Miller/NYT outcome.
Briefly, it appears the Libby was advised by presidential counsel that the information leaked by Libby and others, not including the leaking of Valerie Plame’s name and CIA status, was legal.
Why legal? Because Cheney was advised by President Bush to proceed with the leak, and in so doing President Bush was declassifying this information. In other words, the mere decision by the POTUS to disclose (leak) implies lawful declassification.
If this is true, then it would appear that President Bush believes he can alter the classification status of information merely by choosing to disclose it publicly by agents other than him.
Of course, like so many arguments made by President Bush concerning the constitutional limits to the power of the executive, this interpretation could result in rampant abuse by this and future presidents.
Wonder what the lawyers think about this argument?
Where are all our pet republicans to explain to us how Bush isn’t really screwing the country? Come out come out where ever you are!
Why McKinney is even in this thread is beyond me, but since she is, I’ll throw in my two cents:Some (not all) idiot republicans are using the incident as a bully pulpit. The fact of the matter is she did circumvent security without wearing her ID. Pretty stupid in today’s environment, don’tca think? The security police, attempting to do his job, tapped her on the arm, not grabbed her, and was struck by her. She then claimed the incident was racist driven. Who’s the racist here, her or the police?
It seems to me there are quite a few people here who believe if you are non-white, you can’t be a racist. Having seen racism perpetrated by both whites and non-whites in the course of my long life, all I can say is hogwash. McKinney showed herself to be racist by trying to play the racism card in this incident. It doesn’t get any simpler than that.
As for Bush “forgetting” he authorized the release of Plume’s name: If he did, it should be added to the list of offenses he has garnered in impeaching him
Bush is like a bugger on your finger. You roll down the car window, hold your finger out of the window, but the thing won’t fly off. Now what?…….
From the link above – the NYSun article:”Mr. Bush’s alleged instruction to release the conclusions of the intelligence estimate appears to have been squarely within his authority and Mr. Fitzgerald makes no argument that it was illegal. While Mr. Libby said he gave that information “exclusively” to the Times reporter at their breakfast meeting at the St. Regis Hotel in Washington, many of the findings of the estimate were formally declassified and discussed at a White House press briefing ten days later, on July 18, 2003.”
It appears that Bush’s leaking was legal. His lying about knowing anything about it is the political problem.
Even if true, JM, she’s not being charged with racism. Time will tell if there’s anything to the charges.
And something tells me using the McKinney incident as a floodwall on this will be as effective as the levees held back Lake Ponchantrain. So you’re right, it not only doesn’t belong here at all; it will probably not put in another appearance.
DD – if lying about a blow job is impeachable then lying about leaking classified information to enemy agents sure should be.
Well bush does have the authority to declassify.
And since the info was no longer secret, Cheney, Rove , and Libby would seem to be in the clear.
Clearly though, this was done for reasons of political attack only.
It becomes, I guess a matter of just how much crap the American people are willing to take.
If I were one of his supporters, I’d be looking for the tall grass just now. Cause there is just no way to spin this into anything palpable.
I tell you this much. For me, just for me: Anyone who actually DEFENDS bush in this I can no longer consider to be objective or therefore relevant. No one has stepped up to claim that “honor” just yet. But I’m sure someone will.
J R,
Oh, of course. It will be the ‘if the President does it, it can’t be illegal, because anything the President does, by definition, cannot break the law’ defense.
Of course, one would have to be a shameless Ho’ to countenance such a defense, a willing Oral Servant of the Executive. But that hasn’t stopped the usual suspects from trying to justify the President’s every action, and nor will it now.
ksfarmgrrl,You mention me in the same breath as the Rudepundit?!? I am not worthy, I am not worthy…
To do harm to a persons spouse as a way to get even is beneath contempt. Or, maybe she was seen as just a pawn, and collateral damage. The Good of The Many (Iraqis), outweighed the Good of The Few (Wilson, Plame, etc.) Damn Socialist!
I can’t wait until pres. numbnuts and his cohorts tweedle dee and dumb try to explain this. You know less than 5 minutes after they leak their excuse the right wing lap dogs that frequent this blog are going to be here regurgitating the GOP line.
You know, I am not taking the side of the repubs, but there is one very important thing that Bush knows – politicians can lie all the want; they just can’t do it under oath. It is wrong but true that Clinton and the dress makes perjury and Bush and well you pick the lie makes squat.
Is anyone interested in facts? Or are you too busy dancing and celebrating?
According to NBC News, “Scooter” Libby claims that Dick Cheney told him that Bush said it was ok.
In law school, I was taught that heresay is not evidence. And yes, while unorthodox and probably very badly done, POTUS does have the legal right to de-classify information.
Still, the whole thing smells.
Well, yeah, Raptor, that’s been noted elsewhere but having a rogue VP is hardly better. Or a particularly credible scenario, for that matter. But if Bush were being put on trial, you are correct that such a claim could not be admitted (in most instances, anyway).
By the way, outing a covert operative–again, depending on interpretation of statute–is still a criminal offense, whether or not the material was legally declassified.
Should be interesting to watch them argue their way out of this pretzel.
I agree with Allie. Bush (and Cheney, too) have succeeded in avoiding any statements while under oath…except for that inaugural swearing in, of course. Remember, together they testified, privately and not under oath, to the 9/11 commission. Makes me wonder how many times Bush blinked during that little soiree.
Raptor
Well it is good that you are willing to say so. Both to your credit and the future of the country
No apologists here yet. But if they come they might do well to remember that the President will not always be one that they like. And each line that THIS president crosses is one that a future President will not need respect either.
Simple question: “Are you now, or have you ever been, a suck-up to a Zionist?”
There’s the line.
Raptor, the POTUS does not have the authority to declassify material by himself. Declassification requires certain conditions to be met and the pres cannot one day say “Make this unclassified because I say so.” The system does not work that way. So that cannot/will not be his defense.
For six years we’ve waited for the liar in chief to finally get nailed.
Today’s the day.
Now, the one thing last thing that Bush had–honesty–is shown to be a fraud.
It’s a great day for Americans who care about the truth.
Notice how quiet it’s gotten on the conservative side?
Rush and Sean and Bill O’haven’t told them what to think yet . . .
Give the talking point gang a few hours to get the party lies in order and a truck load of gags won’t be able to keep them quiet.
OK lefties, take a deep breath, control your breathing, and please explain to me why you are so excited. As JR and others point out, Bush and Cheney have the power to declassify. That is not disputed. I also notice that a few posters are inferring or saying that Bush authorized the release of Plame’s name. There is no evidence of that, correct? (read the link) So nothing on the criminal side of things.
Moving onto dishonesty allegation. No one has furnished any of the Bush quotes that are referenced. (Rhonda, if you are going to throw around vague allegations, please furnish evidence.) As I recall, Bush’s referenced statements were in regard to the leaking of Valerie Plame’s covert identity. Is there any evidence that he knew where that leak came from? Or is this more hopeful induendo that goes no where?
Am I the only one who asks these questions? Don’t you have any desire to know the whole story before you shoot off your mouth?
I’m not seeing where this story is a big deal. Here’s your opportunity to tell me why I am wrong.
The fact remains that Bush ordered the leak of classified information for political gain. Not for the gain of the American people, not for the gain of our troops in Iraq, but for his own gain. Show me someone who’ll defend that, and I’ll show you a scumbag. This is the guy who has made such a big deal about controlling leaks. And now it turns out that he’s the top dog leaker.
Could it be that our friends on the right have too much integrety to show up and defend the leaker-in-chief?
I suspect it’s more like TrueBlue says…the talking heads haven’t told the troops what to think yet.
Outlander:”Move along, nothing to see here”
And so our first bush apologist willing to defend the indefensible is Outlander.
Yeah Out, I’m not sure this is illegal. This is dancing on the edge of legality that Constitutional scholars will have to sort out. But beyond legal or illegal there is right and wrong. And if you can’t see that then you earn the title XXX mentioned.
Out would be on the short list of people I would have expected this of.
He won’t be alone.
Here is a link (Wikipedia, but all they had to do was copy available info – so I suspect we are safe in accepting it) to executive order 13292 written by GW Bush on classifying and declassifying secret information in 2003. The main change in this executive order is that it gives the same powers the president has to the vice president.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13292#PART_3–DECLASSIFICATION_AND_DOWNGRADING
Outlander:I provided a link up-thread to the documents released by Fitzgerald which indicate that Cheney told Libby that Bush approved the leaking of the Plame information. That is what Libby testified to in front of a grand jury. It is possible that Libby is lying instead of Bush.
Certainly we can find quotes of Bush saying the he wanted to know who the leaker was in this case and that when found the leaker would not be part of this administration. Surely you have not forgotten the stories, not that long ago, where everyone noticed that the leaking transgression had to be more serious before the leaker would be dismissed. There was the speculation that this for sure meant that Rove was Fitzgerald’s target, etc.
I don’t think Bush/Cheney have broken the law (more important to the principals, Fitzgerald doesn’t seem to think so, either), but the political clumsiness and humiliation (assuming he knows how to experience that emotion) is pretty bad even by Bush’s pathetically low standards.
Out, it comes down to this question: are you willing to defend this administration’s obvious use of government power to punish political enemies. Kind of reminds one of the Nixon Enemies List. Are you saying you defend this degree of hubris and resulting abuse of executive power? Remember the president will not always be one you like.
Great points, DD.As has been said, it probably wasn’t illegal. It is, however, about the slimiest thing I’ve heard in a while. Do republicans have any sense of honor? We’ll see when they get the nerve to respond.
A suggestion:
It is time to put Bush under oath about what he knew, and when he knew it, regarding the Plame leak. We might get the truth that way.
As I remembering the law against outing an undercover CIA employee had a pretty high standard — the leaker had to know the person was undercover and had to intend to do that person harm. Wasn’t Bush’s actions, purely motivated by political revenge evidence of this higher standard? Is the president above this law because he is president? Isn’t being in a chain of conspiracy to commit a crime, a crime in and of itself?
We know one thing for sure, Scooter is no G. Gordon Liddy. He was apparently not willing to fall on his sword to save the VP and President.
IanIn what way was Clinton a traitor?
EdI like the bugger thing !
“One of the facts Mr. Libby said he planned to disclose to Ms. Miller was that the estimate, produced in October 2002, concluded that Iraq was “vigorously trying to procure uranium.” This contention was sharply at odds with Mr. Wilson’s op-ed piece which argued there was no evidence of such a procurement effort, at least on a trip he took to Africa at the CIA’s request.”
“Mr. Bush’s alleged instruction to release the conclusions of the intelligence estimate appears to have been squarely within his authority and Mr. Fitzgerald makes no argument that it was illegal. While Mr. Libby said he gave that information “exclusively” to the Times reporter at their breakfast meeting at the St. Regis Hotel in Washington, many of the findings of the estimate were formally declassified and discussed at a White House press briefing ten days later, on July 18, 2003.”
DD, the above from the NY Sun story you linked to. Am I to understand then that this flap is about information that was “leaked” to the Times reporter and then declassified and given to the press in general 10 days later? Information that I suppose was intended to counter what the administration thoughtwas mis-information being distributed by Joe Wilson? That’s it?
OutlandishBased on the past proven offences of the GOP. Any REASONABLE THINKING person would come to the conclusion that Bushytail and his tail waggers have lead this nation on a road of distruction that will take many years to recover if at all.
Northguy, I think “REASONABLE THINKING” is the operable in your post. Doesn’t seem to be too many of that type in the “Bushytail” administration, whot? I agree with your concern that we may be in a dive that our country may not recover from. Dems have to ask themselves, do they really want to take over the mess in ‘08?
Bambo, and if the Dems don’t, then what? More of the same?
Who WILL the Republicans be running for prez in 2008? Any hints? Any guesses? Aside from Condi and McCain, which I doubt are feasible, anybody care to make a guess? I’d just like to know just who in the Republican party, if elected, will be cleaning up GW’s mess, if indeed anyone will.
The reference to the release of part of the NIE of 2002, was one of the first things I learned that lead me to believe that Bush was lying us into the invasion of Iraq. In fact several key Senators pressure the White House to release the document in whole. Having read it but being swore to secrecy and unable to reveal it themselves. Bush used the part that was a projection of the level of Saddam’s WMDs if he had continued to produce them and/or acquire them. He fail to expose that the conclusion of the report stated that there was no proof that Saddam had continued and the estimates were based on his known level as of 1994.
My understanding of the disclosure law is that the President can declassify information to be disclosed BY the agency that the document was classified by. The gray area in this case is that he told someone to leak the information. But it was not the agency that had classified the information. The argument will be that since the President has the authority to declassify information at his will, is the release of that information covered by that authority? It is a game of lawyer ball, not a matter of what happened but more a matter of how it will be explained. I am sure it will be explained that the motive is not in play here, it is he has the authority.
No idea RD. My take on the issue is, whoever takes office in ‘08 inherets a singularly nasty mess. Right now I’m gettin real nervous about who it’ll be. I notice that neither side seems to have much to offer. The Repoulicans shot their wad with Bush. How do you follow an act like that? I’ve been watching the Dems, and all they have to offer is Hillary. Are Dems stupid enough to run her as their candidate? You’ll be sucking air for another 8 years. Another 8 years of bribery, lying, and stealing, and it just won’t matter anymore after that. We’ll be crossing the mexican border in search of a better life.
Thanks Guy
I was thinking of renaming Outlander with that new moniker myself. I got a few other ideas but lets see how far he is willing to go.
Outlandish
“That’s it” that’s your response.
Well let’s review.
bush was hell bent for war with Iraq. We have knowledge now that in the run up to that war he was lying to the American people. He was telling us and the world that every effort was being made to avoid war…….and he had already named the day to start the bombing.
We know now of course about the lies about weapons of mass destruction. This is part of that lie. It also is the proof that the lie was gonna be sold as fact to the American public…….at any cost.
Joe Wilson got in the way. He gummed up the story. Legal or not the revelation of his wife as a CIA agent was PURE political vengence and a bulldozer to plow the road to war.
And how is that war going? How many dead and maimed on both sides? How many more? How much money spent? When does it end?
And still in charge of it all, and the direction it all goes, is arguably the most despicable administration in the history of this country.
And you say “That’s it?”
Sickening.
A guy from up north,
It is Ariel Sharon who has done the damage. Bush was dropped into Sharon’s lap like a gift, but Sharon had the cruelty to make everything fall into place, and strike fear into those surrounding him. Sharon, in the blink of an eye, could drop a 1000lb bomb on an apartment full of sleeping children, or fire a Hellfire missile into a man being pushed in a wheelchair. Truly a master corrupting politician as smart as Bush is dumb.
There has never been anyone like him.
Tragically, I think he is someone the world is trying to emulate.
From Phelps to Rice to Rumsfeld to road-rage, the world is becoming a meanspirited place.
RD, The Zionists want Rice, and she wants to be the dictator.
She is the “darling of AIPAC” They kept her keynote speech posted for over a year. She does as she’s told.
Rice just got back from India, where she’s made a deal to let them increase their supply of nuclear warheads. Just what Pakistan needs.
Rice is by far the most dangerous threat to start WWlll.
NYT
Rice with nuke deal for Indiahttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/06/washington/06nuke.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=login
Ed, the Zionists may want Rice, but the neocons will play hell getting her elected. If there’s some way they can convince the South of electing a woman–a black woman, at that–as president, I want to see it. Condi buying shoes while New Orleans flooded does not endear her to many who are south of the Mason-Dixon. But I suppose stranger things have happened. After all, look who’s prez now.
I don’t think even Diebold can help with Condi. Florida has barred the use of Diebold’s voting machines from their state. Others have to. The neocons will have to find another way. Not that I don’t think they can’t, but they’re being watched by more and more people these days.
Bambo, I agree. Scary, indeed.
Has anyone else heard about the questionable Iraq report on their weapons that the U.N. Security Council ordered Saddam to produce? (I’d forgotten I had the link.) Rumor has it that an 11,800 page report was compiled and produce by Iraqi officials, but after passing through the hands of U.S. officials, 8,000 pages were edited out. Who says we don’t own the U.N.?
http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/HusseinWasRight.htm
Thanks Guy From Up North:Outlandish,What did the president know, and when did he know it? (does that question jar a memory)?
His answer to “that’s it?” would be quite interesting.
DD,
Indeed. Same Republican shit, different Republican administration.
After 30 years, this is getting old. Can we just agree that the Republican Party hates the Constitutional separation of powers and loves monarchy?
CF:We can agree.
Come on everyone, there must be a perfectly logical explanation… you know… a brain fart or something!
This is getting scary.. Although I am not a very political person, I have been a registered Repub since day one.. but it’s getting really tiresome when you can’t trust your own Party. Anyway.. when I look at who leads the Dems, I see “NO CHOICE”. Time to go Independent I think….. Anyone out there willing to start a new “Integrity” Party? Anyone holding office now is OUT!
Outlander – correct information was disseminated by Wilson, the DISinformation was that claimed by Bush/Cheney/Powell/Rice.
As for whether it was legal for Bush to “declassify” the identity of Plame; if that is the defense then why didn’t he just come out and do it openly – like a real man? Why the slinking around in the shadows?
RD, Your insight is refreshing. It seems ever difficult to find someone who hasn’t bought into the neocon circus with their star clown: “terrorism”
Sharon was at his best when he sold the idea that when a Palestinian resisted being murdered he become a “terrorist.”
It’s hard to believe that so many people have bought into that nonsense, although the Zionists and their lackies are having an increasing amount of difficulty in selling that word.
Was it illegal? Oh, hell yes:
PROTECTION OF IDENTITIES OF CERTAIN UNITED STATES UNDERCOVERINTELLIGENCE OFFICERS, AGENTS, INFORMANTS, AND SOURCES
SEC. 601. (a) Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
The lawyers will no doubt bicker and quibble over the legality, but what is beyond questionable is this–
BUSH LIED. HE LIED SO BAD.
Not even Hank is going to be able to equivocate this one. Despite Bush’s low poll numbers on competence, he continued to enjoy some measure of trust on honesty and integrity.
No more. The curtain has been pulled aside to reveal the pathetic little man madly spinning the controls . . .
*****
President Bush, 9/30/03:
“I don’t know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I’d like to know it, and we’ll take the appropriate action.”
President Bush, 9/30/03:
“If there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of. . . . I have told our administration, people in my administration to be fully cooperative. I want to know the truth. If anybody has got any information inside our administration or outside our administration, it would be helpful if they came forward with the information so we can find out whether or not these allegations are true and get on about the business.”
President Bush, 10/28/03:
“I’d like to know if somebody in my White House did leak sensitive information.”
President Bush, 6/10/04:
Reporter: “Do you stand by your pledge to fire anyone found to have done so?”
President Bush: “Yes.”
President Bush, 10/28/03:
“I want to know the truth. … I have no idea whether we’ll find out who the leaker is, partially because, in all due respect to your profession, you do a very good job of protecting the leakers.”
President Bush, 7/18/05 issue of USA Today:
“If someone committed crime, they will no longer work in my administration.”
White House Press Secretary, 9/29/03:
“The President has set high standards, the highest of standards for people in his administration. He’s made it very clear to people in his administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration.”
White House Press Secretary, 10/7/03:
“Let me answer what the President has said. I speak for the President and I’ll talk to you about what he wants . . .If someone leaked classified information, the President wants to know. If someone in this administration leaked classified information, they will no longer be a part of this administration, because that’s not the way this White House operates, that’s not the way this President expects people in his administration to conduct their business.”
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Dem_leader_ReidBush_must_come_clean_0406.html
Bamboo–
This thread is too good to hijack.
But the only people that think Hillary will be the Dem candidate are Republicans and the media (same difference).
There are a number of good candidates on the Dem side that the media haven’t bothered to report on. Did you who Carter and Clinton were before they ran? Or for that matter, George Bush I and II?
Thank you TrueBlue for refreshing Outlandish’s memory.
RD, you rock! “The neocons will have to find another way. Not that I don’t think they can’t, but they’re being watched by more and more people these days.”
Once again, illustrating that the first amendment protects all others. Once again, illustrating the importance of a free and UNBIASED media.
And at the end of the day, nothing replaces sunshine for chasing out the vermin.
I think “watching” is the operative word. And not being distracted by bright and shiney objects.
Gosh, where oh where are the righties? No talking points yet? At least Outlandish had guts enough to speak. Sorry that his buddies let him speak alone!
Support Russ Feingold! Lolololol.
Bamboo – even if Hillary were to run and be elected why do you think she would follow Bush’s example?
The question which to me is bigger even than did the president out Valerie Plame, is did the president methodically and deliberately cherry pick, and declassify information to take the nation to war. It looks like a resounding yes. No more ‘partisan politics’ cover for Pat Roberts to delay and fudge a full scale investigation!
This Bush Administration has been irrigated by leaks! Bush I must be mortified, having led the CIA!
Hillary was a keynote speaker at AIPAC. Same old line, lock, stock and barrel.
Bush I told bush II not to go to bagdad. Some of us thought jr. would try to avenge daddy’s loss by going to iraq.
Now? I think we went to iraq so jr could SHOW UP the old man.
Pappa bush even sent his most trusted and loyal bushytail (wink at GUY) advisors to TELL jr what a mistake he was making.
Jr’s reponse? To villify the old man AND his loyal advisors. Why are we surprised that bushytail and his current neocon advisors would villify EVERYONE who disagreed with them?
Like gmc says we do :)
Someone said the best predictor of the future is the past. Can we learn anything from the ghosts of bushytails past?
Bush needs to come out with a forceful “I did Not Screw that Woman, Valerie Plame!” denial.
Ben and others. Once again, for you who are making up stuff. Unless I am mistaken, there is no evidence that Bush authorized the leak of Plame’s covert identity! And was the same information given to the general press 10 days later or was it not?
Come on guys. If it’s there it’s there. As you will note by re-reading the posts, I have not defended any conduct. I have asked questions that fair minded people would want to know before making a decision.
Maybe it’s “darn the facts” attitudes like yours that are the cause of Democrats screwing up their majority standing.
Well, I’m a fair minded person and Bush is a piece of shit.
We need a moderate republican to switch over and lead the democrats to complete victory.
And do it without the Zionist Jewish swing vote. Kick AIPAC out of Washington or lock them-up as spies and get on with the business of American jobs and business and a flat-tax.
“Was it illegal? Oh, hell yes.”
Oh, geez, TB, maybe not. The statute is peppered with the phrase “classified information.” If it was properly unclassified (was it?), no crime, at least not under this statute.
By the way, after some initial verbal fumbling by Cheney, Gonzalez has launched the first legal salvo: The president had the “inherent authority” to declassify and give information to anyone he wants!
Gee, that might be technically, narrowly true (to anyone??). Thanks, CF, for your earlier explanation of the difference between “plenary” and “inherent” power.
But, as Raptor had the guts to say, the whole thing still smells.***********************************Sam, during the 2004 presidential campaign, cartoonist Ted Rall described the choice as “the difference between a slap in the face and a brick crushing your skull.”
That’s kinda how I’m looking at it. Break the current regime, then look to the next step. My sigh of relief won’t last past election day.
Some want to take back/over the Democratic party, some want to go third-party. I don’t think it’s an either/or choice. To some degree, we have to do both: put their feet to the fire, AND separately organize.
And be prepared to vote your conscience in 2 years, no matter how scary the prospect.
Out:”Unless I am mistaken, there is no evidence that Bush authorized the leak of Plame’s covert identity! And was the same information given to the general press 10 days later or was it not?”
The only evidence I know of is grand jury testimony by Libby. So, this is why a stream of people, mainly Democrats are asking Bush to come forward with what he knows. So far, he has not answered these questions shouted out at him. If he is so lilly white and clean, I am thinking he would have come forward immediately. But he hasn’t . . . makes ya think “hmmmm…”
This from the liberal rag the Boston Globe – sums up the situation the best:
Boston Globe: “the possibility that Bush authorized a selective leak to a single correspondent suggests a desire to shape the news to the administration’s ends — a possible misuse of the president’s national security powers. . . .
“Such tactics are hardly unusual in politics, but would seem to damage the credibility of a president who has built a reputation for forthrightness, and who has gone further than previous presidents both in keeping information secret and in launching Justice Department investigations of alleged leakers.”
Bush’s actions and silence reek of disingenuousness. I resubmit my original question: “What else is new?”
“desire to shape the news to the administration’s ends”
Yeah, but they didnt have to leak information. They already paid pseudo-journalists, in the u.s and iraq, to do that. Their war on the press is much subtler than their general war on dissent.
Boy, it’s a sad day in america when you cant even BUY good news in the media… advertising and money whores that they are :)
And the preznit wonders why, when he says “trust me” on domestic spying on u.s. citizens, we have a hard time mustering up that trust.
Why doesnt he just come clean and admit he lied to the american people about the leaks? To use his words, if he did nothing wrong (he says it IS legal) what does he have to worry about?
Oh, I forgot, being a republican means you never have to say you are sorry.
Rage..I’m starting the prayers NOW that there will be someone to vote for… and not just someone to vote against!
The executive order 13292 which I link to up-thread was written in March of 2003. With that executive order, Cheney was given the same classification and de-classification powers previously only possessed by Bush (or any sitting president). So, Libby could have leaked the information given Cheney’s instructions to do so. The story goes that he was reluctant to leak to Miller and Cheney’s urging was strengthened by Cheney telling him Bush wanted the leak to happen. [This is what Libby testified to in front of the Grand Jury].
I wonder will Bush make a statement about this story today and hope that it dies away by Monday. I say put Cheney and Bush under oath, ask them what they know, and give them an opportunity to really break the law.
I notice the oh so careful splitting of the hairs here.
Bush lied, but just not under oath. WWJD?
There is no “evidence” that bush authorized the leak? Does that make cheney a liar, scooter a liar, or both? WWJD?
EVERYONE cant be telling the truth here so who will fall on their sword and admit it? Doesnt sound like scooter will.
Outlander, what would constitute “good” evidence that bush either leaked or authorized the leak?
Sam,I hope I don’t get (LITERALLY) flamed for this, but: Amen.
And some of us here called the pattern they are following.
It never happened.
If it did happen it was to protect you from ossama.
Someone else may have done it but I didnt do it.
And if I did do it, it was legal!
The past is the best predictor of the future.
The only evidence Outlander would accept would be for Bush to openly admit it. So, in his view there will never be “good” evidence.
I forgot a couple of steps.
If it isnt legal, we will have Pat Roberts investigate it and find no evidence.
If evidence surfaces, congress will pass a law MAKING it legal.
See? No problem.
Like old t-shirt says:
I dont have a drinking problem. I drink, I get drunk, I fall down, I pass out. NO PROBLEM!
Ya know, there’s an underlying scary theme here: the paper legalization of criminality.
“And in a 5-4 decision by Chief Justice Roberts. . .”
Rage, you remain my idol!
Heheh.
“legalization of criminality”
Isnt that called racketeering, Rage?
Oh, MY, KFG! That’s too much!
I’m gonna apply for tax-emempt status.
Outlander, I have two words for you:
hammered kitten
I dunno. In the case, maybe RICO Suave.
Ramen Rage!
I know it will be really painful for some of you, but I laughed until I cried when I read this transcript of this morning’s white house press briefing.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000317.php
I wouldnt be snotty mclellan for all the money in the bushco bank accounts.
“Now? I think we went to iraq so jr could SHOW UP the old man.”
KFG, that’s what I’ve been saying for years. Sr & Jr appear to have had an embattled relationship, so it makes perfect sense. Although I doubt it makes any difference since Barabara wears the pants in the family.
Outlander, concerning the leak of Plame’s name and the leak about WMD intelligence, you may want to read this from CNN by correspondent David Ensor:
“But we have to be careful to separate two things here, Fredricka. The leaking of the name of Valerie Plane Wilson, which was against the law, and concerning how that was done, as you mentioned, Scooter Libby has been charged with perjury, obstruction of justice, and so forth in connection with that.
And the separate matter of the decision to disclose, and thus leak, certain information to The New York Times that came out of a classified document having to do with weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
These are two different things. Ah, the president had the right to order his staff to disclose certain limited information from that classified document.
Nobody have the right, however, to disclose the name of Valerie Plane Wilson, which was the original crime about which this whole scandal has shaped around.”
“I wonder will Bush make a statement about this story today and hope that it dies away by Monday.”
DD, according to this item, we can expect silence from the white house
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/bush_administration
Scotty the contortionist is up right now.
Now it seems we have good and bad leaks!
Leaks about wiretaps: Bad!
Leaks outing a CIA agent: Ok!
Too funny today from the rude pundit. I will try to clean it up a little.
“On the President Not Being Able To “Leak”:Let’s say, and why not, that you are a dopehead living in Amsterdam and you are one ganja-smokin’ ************.
You wake and bake; you do a three-toke lunch; you head over to one of the many fine,”coffeeshops” every evening to meet up with hookah-suckin’ friends to get toasted, toasted, nice ‘n roasted on the latest greenhouse-grown organic ****. And it’s all cool, man, ’cause pot’s legal in Amsterdam.
But let’s say you run a website that’s specifically targeting Americans in America, tellin’ ‘em not to smoke pot. In fact, the website is all about how bad it is, how it should not only remain criminalized, but the penalties oughta be more severe, how smokin’ marijuana is a gateway drug, even though you’ve never found yourself suckin’ a glass crack pipe or stickin’ needles in your arm.
Let’s say that eventually you are outed, that someone says you are, in fact, a number one stoner, not the model of drug free living you advocate.
Now, the proper response would be to hang your head in shame as you are beaten with sticks like a rabid cur, chased down the street until you disappear over the horizon.
But, no. Instead, you simply state that no, you are not like American dopesters ’cause it’s legal for you. You never broke the law, unlike all those ******* tokers in the USA.
When “senior White House officials” declare that President Bush can’t “leak” classified material because he, in fact, is in charge of declassifying it, despite having said repeatedly that Bush would take any leakers in his administration, rip out their tongues and *********** well,**** it’s still time to break out the sticks and clear the road for the horizon’s beckoning.
Ben Huie said,
“The only evidence Outlander would accept would be for Bush to openly admit it. So, in his view there will never be “good” evidence.”
I want all of you to remember this, because this will be one of my lines of attack against Nathan: that only the most literal standard of evidence counts against his position.
Lotsa great stuff, folks. Can’t post with you: too busy today.
Bush singing “Monday, Monday”, What a hoot.
“Nobody have [sic - has] the right, however, to disclose the name of Valerie Plane Wilson, which was the original crime about which this whole scandal has shaped around.”
Thanks, KFG. This is what I wondered, doesn’t this revelation open up the original can of worms on outing Plame. And if true, doesn’t the information that is out already leap the hurdle imposed by the law – viz. there was clear intent to harm Plame. Which was clearly done in retaliation against Wilson. QED
If I was Bush, I think I would only be talking via my lawyers.
DD, as long as the r’s control the congress he is safe.
Watch for FRANTIC republican campaigning against the boogey man of dems controlling the congress and what terror that would create in america.
Watch for more bright and shiney objects.
Watch for more scotty squirming.
Watch for “clinton did it”
Watch for pardons all around to, as Rage reminded us, “end our long national nightmare”.
Watch lady liberty weep.
I wonder if Fitz. is holding off on the major charges, for the major players. And, as I remember people thought it was no big deal that Bush immediately hired an outside lawyer following (or was it before) his questioning on the leak matter.
If Scott Mc. ever gets tired of all the bobbing and weaving, ducking and dodging, I think the Senior Senator from Ks. would be a natural for his job! But he’d probably get mad, and tell the press to go Cheney itself!
Has anyone noticed the complete lack of comments from the White House?
From Reuters:”McClellan said the release of the declassified information was very different from what he called the potentially damaging leak of information about Bush’s domestic eavesdropping program which aims to track phone calls and e-mails in the United States to suspected al Qaeda contacts abroad.
“‘Democrats who refuse to acknowledge that distinction are simply engaging in crass politics.’”
Of course, the WH can’t comment on the ongoing legal proceeding, unless it provides a chance to get out their talking points. Talk about crass politics – that is all this administration has ever been, or ever will be, about.
I think a good tactic right now for the white house is to raise the terror alerts. Pink, red, orange, whatever the most scary one is. That’ll distract us long enough for them to sweep it under the rug.
“I wonder if Fitz. is holding off on the major charges, for the major players.”
Good question, steve. Fitz no doubt saw charging Scooter with perjury was the “slam dunk,” but he didn’t rule out anything else. He’s very careful about what he says and doesn’t say.
“Alberto, you got the latest wiretap? What’s Fitz doing now?”
God, judging by McClellan’s spin, are they desperate and full of shit, or what?
Fuck them. I’m done listening. The poll numbers suggest that America is, too.
OFF TOPIC -Check out what Alberto Gonzales was floating this week:
“the president might have the legal authority to order wiretapping without a warrant on communications between Americans that occur exclusively within the United States. ‘I’m not going to rule it out,’ Mr. Gonzales said when asked about that possibility at a House Judiciary Committee hearing.”
These jerks just have no sense of moderation. You can’t let them out of your sight for a second.
JR, you asked about the off camera conversation between Chris “Tweety” Matthews and Tom “the disgraced hammer” Delay.
http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/#34576
Scroll down past the stuff until you get to the matthews-delay love fest.
Then scroll and look at the delay supporters who disrupted a Nick Lampson even.
So much for matthews and his credentials as an objective journalist.
And the delay guys? Heheh. Not just losers, but POOR LOSERS!
Oops, you have to scroll UP to see the delay supporters.
The funny thing now is that the DeLay and Bush boys complain about “piling on” after what they are so proud of having done to Clinton.
As long as the religious right and Bushytail & his tailwaggers has a strangle hold on my Republican party, I will not vote for any one or two legged republican critter.As long as the yellowbellied Demos are afraid to stand up to the devious, vengeful, lieing republicans, I will not vote for them.So unless a good viable third party shows up, I will not vote.
GOP Talking Points Memo and Fox News programming guide for 4/7/06
1. It was legal2. Libby is being charged with lying and can’t be trusted3. Remember what Bart Simpson taught usI didn’t do itNobody saw me do itYou can’t prove I did it4. Clinton was worse5. Clinton is still worse6. We are at war and gays might get married after having an abortion7. Bush is the only person that can make the boogeyman go away8. McKinney and Mexicans9. The evil liberals made him do it10. Clinton sucks
If all else fails remember “I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation”. It works everytime you can’t explain why you are a lying scumbag.
Thanks Rush. I had run out of things to say.
JR Said there was some good action over here. I must be on the wrong thread, all I see is Liberals rehashing one of their wet dreams.
All of this over an authorized release of declassified material. FROM THREE YEARS AGO. You folks need to get a life.
Heckler – if it were “an authorized release of declassified material” then why didn’t Bush say so at the time?
TrueBlue, according to latest polls, it looks like about 39% of Democrats favor Hilary, far more than support Kerry or Gore. One is a good candidate who can’t win and the other 2 are losers who will do just that.
Bambo – it is early in the cycle. Where was that obscure governor of Arkansas in 1990?
And now, the liberal talking points;
1) It’s Bush’s fault2) It’s Cheney’s fault3) It’s Rumsfield’s fault4) It’s the big bad corporations fault5) If you don’t stop stealing African American voters, I’m going to play the race card (again and again and again)6) We want to save the whales (but not the unborn child)7) We care about the poor (and will continue to feed them fish instead of teaching them how to fish so they will vote for us)8) We care about the children (but not the unborn children)9) It’s Condie’s fault10) War is bad, terrorists will vote for us
Rush, you left one tactic out, put it off, stonewall, delay, then claim “that’s old news”.
Thank you Heckler for fianlly defining yourself.I believe you just destroyed your last shred of credibility.
FINALLY that is.
After stopping by a few different pharmacies on the way home and making sure that Bill had an extra loofa for our weekend trip, I checked the fax machine and need to add a few more points.
1. It is not a leak, Bush can release information anytime he wants, if Bush had lost the election it would mean that the terrorists had won2. Even though it is not a leak, if information was leaked it was for national security purposes3. Ridge took the old chart as a souvenir, but Bush has been busy with his crayons all day. We are going to Code Red ASAP.4. Remember your buzzwords – freedom, terror, democracy, patriotism, Support the Troops, these colors don’t run, hard work, etc. and facism is on the march5. Clinton is still worse
ID – As they say on American Idol, you made my post your own dog. I see that originality is not one of your talents.
GFUN (damn, those initials gotta stand for somethin’, I just can’t remember what.
Yo, dude, for once I fully agree with you. Until a third party, or a REAL leader pops up, voting is going to be a real pain.
Guy, Walker: Please vote anyway. I’ve been known to write-in “No!” when I couldn’t stand to do anything else.
Register your objection.
P.S. I was also one of those notorious “Nader voters” in 2000. . .
Now for some good news:
“The AP-Ipsos survey is loaded with grim election-year news for a party struggling to stay in power. Nearly 70 percent of Americans believe the nation is headed in the wrong direction — the largest percentage during the Bush presidency and up 13 points from a year ago.”
And more…
“As for Bush’s ratings:
_Just 36 percent of the public approves of his job performance, his lowest-ever rating in AP-Ipsos polling. By contrast, the president’s job approval rating was 47 percent among likely voters just before Election Day 2004 and a whopping 64 percent among registered voters in October 2002.
_Only 40 percent of the public approves of Bush’s performance on foreign policy and the war on terror, another low-water mark for his presidency. That’s down 9 points from a year ago. Just before the 2002 election, 64 percent of registered voters backed Bush on terror and foreign policy.
_Just 35 percent of the public approves of Bush’s handling of Iraq, his lowest in AP-Ipsos polling.”
“As bad as Bush’s numbers may be, Congress’ are worse.
Just 30 percent of the public approves of the GOP-led Congress’ job performance, and Republicans seem to be shouldering the blame.
By a 49-33 margin, the public favors Democrats over Republicans when asked which party should control Congress.
That 16-point Democratic advantage is the largest the party has enjoyed in AP-Ipsos polling.”
PS: I was one of those notorious “Buchanan voters” in 2000, and in 1992, 1996 and 2004!
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!!
“TrueBlue, according to latest polls, it looks like about 39% of Democrats favor Hilary, far more than support Kerry or Gore. One is a good candidate who can’t win and the other 2 are losers who will do just that.”
Bambo, Gore WON last time he ran, remember? He got over a half million more votes than Bush.
So don’t tell me he can’t win, dude.
As for polls, they’re meaningless at this point. Clinton LOST Iowa and New Hampshire, remember?
No, you probably don’t. We live after all in the United States of Amnesia.
Need A third party? we have libertarains.http://www.lp.org BTW there already here in Kansas
I would like to see a big 3rd party movement. Let’s not forget, it was really Ross Perot who beat Bush I.
Favorite aside: During the ‘92 campaign George W. Bush noticed that Perot’s rallies were attracting a lot of people who had luxury cars.
He protested to his father – “That guy is talking to our people.” Too bad it did not happen in 2004!
Rage,I WILL vote, but sometimes it’s like trying to eat broccali(sp) when your a kid: leaves a really bad taste in your mouth.
Perot had good ideas too bad he was insane
Sometimes the geniuses are insane. Maybe a good name for my son’s band.
PanchoAt least Perot warned us about the loud sucking sound of jobs leaving the country if NAFTA became law.And the voters didn’t pay any attention to him.
Sorry I missed the party!What do you think…does all this impact Todd Tiahrt or Jim Ryun’s chances for re-election?
And the right remains under represented here as compared to other threads.
See this is the acid test.
This issue is where they show how far gone they are and how much further they will go in defending bush in the indefensible.Outlander left himself some wiggle room.
Raptor is properly unhappy with the smell.
Heckler is just flat done. I’ll give him “credit” in his “courage” admitting he is an unapologetic bushie. And that is where HIS relevance ends.
But what about the rest of the right? They know who they are. Where are they?
They all gotta show on this. For those who stay away I call “domestically raised poultry excrement”!!
(most of them don’t like foul language. I got what I needed to say to them said so they can stop reading now)
For the rest of us that translates as…..
“Chickenshit!!”
Check out Fox News and their website…it’s the ONLY PLACE ON THE PLANET that isn’t talking about this.The last time I saw this much denial, it was 1977, I was in Johannesburg, and the South African government had just disclosed the death of Steven Biko.
mrcontroversy, if this was the old 4th district of the 80’s, I think any halfway decent Dem could clean Toddy’s clock. But it ain’t, so I don’t know. Greater Wichita is probably in the bag, but that won’t be enough.
I think Ryun is in trouble. He almost got defeated last time, remember? By a progressive Dem, no less!
The cons are in trouble because of bush but the disticts are laid out to insure incumbent re-election.
Mr C? does Todd still want to get out?
Last I heard, it’s full speed ahead.I hear tell that the GOP leadership wants him out front more to push the “competitiveness” agenda in the coming weeks…hence the recent addition of additional press people.
You people are getting really bad. 170 plus posts over what?
What a foaming at the mouth left handed circle jerk this place is.
Get a life. Step back and look at yourselves. Youre buddies in the MSM are making fools of themselves as well. At 4:15 this morning I hear Jim Axlerod on Jim Bohanans show describe Scooter Libby as “the man who leaked Valerie Plames name to the press”. IF HE DID THAT WHY HASNT HE BEEN CHARGED WITH IT??? I read that CNN did the same thing yesterday and had to correct themselves.
The lyrics “I’m driving off the rails on a crazy train” will never sound the same again. I’m starting to picture all of you people looking like a particularly dimented looking Ozzy Ozbourne.
Ozzy and Nancy Pelosi doing a duet, there’s another vision I had.
If another party took power in November, how long would it take to institute impeachment proceedings?
Poor Heckler, the voice in the wilderness.
Libs, you need to start taking it easy on these poor sensitive repugs. We’ll miss them when they’re gone.
Can a political party get protection under the endangered species act?
MrC – we should ask ol’ Tanker Todd about all those jobs he promised.
XXX – in this case it should be labeled a toxic waste site.
You know, as annoying as it is to have to endure the presence of deaf, dumb, & blind Bush apologists, it has to be so much worse to BE them. I offer my pity.
Actually DD it’s quite easy for them. Just take a BIG handful of Limbaugh Whites!
Todd’s one of Delay’s biggest admirers, the Dem’s should hammer him on his associations. Plus he took money from Delay’s bogus organization didn’t he?
Wooo HOOOOOO!! Great posts here. I should go away and fry fish more often. This is GREAT work y’all.
Guy up north, good on you! I second the motion for a viable third party.
But Pancho, the libertarians are just republican lite. The green party might be available for takeover, but I think we need a fresh start and fresh name for the new third party.
I agree with rage that we all should vote, but there HAS to be some way to register a protest vote. Maybe everyone vote early and on the same day? I dont know, but we need to send a message now!
How about “defeat all incumbents” no matter if they are good or not. Sort of a political “kill ‘em all and let god sort ‘em out”. The good ones… however few and far apart they may be… can be replaced with, dare I hope… BETTER ones!
And heckler, let me second the ever compassionate DD.
It is HARD to be a bush pimp out here!!
HEHEH. I saw heckler and gmc licking their wounds on the other thread by pretending to be above the fray.
heheheheheheh.
Ben, given how the right loves lethargy, maybe they are taking Limbaugh REDS!
I’ll give the Bushies a freebie, don’t think of it as a leak, rather as “Selective Unitary Declassifying”. Sen. Roberts, your welcome to use it. Put a little lipstick on the pig,and you can sell it!
A little fun from The New Republic.
http://www.tnr.com/blog/theplank?pid=12864
XXX
Don’t worry about me, I don’t lose any sleep over how I’m regarded in this little leftwing echo chamber.
Be safe.
Si I suppose that justifies outing his wife?
Ben
HE OUTED HIS OWN WIFE!!!
Get over it.
Heckler – it was Bush who outed Plame – YOU KNOW THAT!
Take your tinfoil hat off and wake up to reality.
Ben
Half the socialites in Washington knew it, as well as about a third of the Washington media.
YOU KNOW THAT.
And Ben, they knew it because heckler said so. He heard it on the limboob show so it must be fact!!
Fitzgerald investigated the very disengenous claim Heckler is making. He found that personal acquaintances and neighbors of the Wilsons did not know she worked at the CIA.
So, Heckler, I don’t know who/what your sources are, but I think I trust Fitzgerald (the independent voter) more.
Maybe we all need to take another handful of drugs to see things the way the Limboobs do.
The Bushies supported the Unitary President, you can bet they’ll also support the Urinary President! He can leak whenever he wants.
DD
Fitzgerald hasn’t even interviewed at least 6 reporters whose names were referred to him during the investigations. He doesnt want to find out who leaked Plame, he wants to hang someone from the Bush admin. for anything he can.
And K , that info is out of MSM reporters mouths, not limboobs, reporters who personally knew Wilsons wife worked for the CIA.
This is why I just have to laugh at most of you people. This information has been out there for ages, but you just hear what you want to . Put your hands over your ears and go LALALALALALALALAL.
Heck,You have sources? Credible sources? Even, uncredible sources?
DD
Fitzgerald didnt even talk to Wilsons neighbors until the day he was trying to get an indictment! How’s that for thorough investigative work. It was an afterthought.
“Excuse me sir/madam, I’m a federal agent working for the offfice of Special Prosecutor Fitzgeralds office. Do you have knowledge of the fact that your neighbor, Valerie Plame-Wilson works for the CIA???”
“Ummmmm Uh….”
“Ok, thank you very much, have a nice day.”
Sorry Heckler,You could accuse Fitzgerald of a lot of things – being sloppy and lazy would not be on the list. He has a rep for being thorough and he has come through on that.
Still would like to see your sources for this “info” you’re sharing.
Gotta admit this is getting funny. Is this a leak? It all depends on what “is” is.
DD
Where have you been? Judith Miller-New York Times, Bob Woodward-Washington Post, Robert Novak-CNN(at the time), 4 or 5 others who’s names escape me at the moment.
Search their columns.
I guess it’s OK to do 90 on Kellogg because someone else might be doing the same thing.
When they start falling back on the old disproven excuses, you know Bush is in trouble.
“Where have you been? Judith Miller-New York Times, Bob Woodward-Washington Post, Robert Novak-CNN(at the time), 4 or 5 others who’s names escape me at the moment.”
Geez, Heckler don’t recall any of these sources saying this:
“Half the socialites in Washington knew it, as well as about a third of the Washington media.”
Pretty specific data you site here. If it is so available, why are you not backing it up? Could it be, possibly, unsupportable?
DD
If Fitzgerald is so thorough why hasnt anyone been indicted for leaking Plames name?
Let me tell you why. He knows he could never get a conviction in court because, get this, Plame wasnt a covert agent! He knows he cant win a case because Plame worked openly at CIA HQ for at least 5 years, every intel agency in the world would know who she was.
So he tries to get Scooter for whatever he can get him for.
It’s called lying heckler. You know, like lying about a meaningless BJ!
The reason he probably couldn’t get a conviction on the actual release of classified information is that Bush will just retroactively declare it unclassified!
Heckler, Please.
Surely you are embarrassed to trot out that old line.
NEWS FLASH: Fitzgerald has not signaled to anyone that he is through. He has repeatedly said that. You don’t know, I don’t know, but let’s let Mr. Fitzgerald (the son of an Irish NYC doorman) tell us when he is finished, huh?
Talk about wet dreams, Heck, your last post was definitely beneath you.
DD
I’ll copy down these couple of posts and show them to you again when Fitzgeralds investigation is closed with no convictions for outings.
I gotta go, there’s cold beer to be drunk and it aint here.
Heckler’s talking about an old neocon chestnut, courtesty of Cliff May (former NYT reporter and NRO contributor).
http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200507150827.asp
May’s and Heckler’s argument can be summed up like this: Novak wrote Plame’s name in a column, but it was David Corn who actually said she was a spy.
The hole in this argument is this: Heckler wants us to believe, apparently, that Novak could have repeated over and over and over that Plame was a CIA operative but her status in the CIA wouldn’t have been “known” unless some unknown enemy of Bush actually noticed what Novak wrote.
Which is a silly argument, imo.
Heckler – concerning your last post, I’m tempted to say some wise ass thing about the temporal parameters of your beer drinking – but will pass up that softball lob. Instead, please do save these posts and show them to me. I am not afraid of my words. And sometimes I am wrong, too.
This is the last thing I am saying about this, but when Fitzgerald says he is done, you will know that a thorough job has been completed.
Fitzgerald was a smart kid who worked his way through college working as a doorman like his father. He has worked hard on his career and earned the respect, and yes – fear, from anybody he has ever worked with. Fitzgerald is the son of an immigrant and his story is one that makes me proud of America.
I find it apalling when people start attacking him for the job he is doing. This ad hominen (sp?) attack is inexcusable. I know very few people who would be a pimple of Fitzgerald’s ass.
So, you on the right, should be thanking Fitzgerald, rather than attacking him. Mr. (not registered with ANY party) Fitzgerald is proof that government still works and one can rest assured that Mr. Bush is hoping that it won’t be able to on this particular matter.
A bit clearer: Plame’s atatus as a covert agent of the CIA would not have changed unless some unknown enemy of Bush actually noticed what Novak wrote.
Flike
Just can’t get out the door, damn telephone.
What I am saying is this(which I’ve said before multiple times over the past 6 months) Valerie Plame worked openly at CIA HQ for 4-5 years. She worked openly for the world to see(foreign intel agencys watch). It does not matter that her status on paper had not been changed, she was in the open. She was NOT a covert agent. Fitzgerald can’t disprove the obvious in court. So how do you convict someone of outing a covert agent who was demonstrably uncovert?
It’s real simple, you folks around here need to get it through your heads.
(IANAL)
Heck,Your contentions have been refuted many, many times. Working at the CIA HQ does not mean that Plame-Wilson was not under a covert status.
I will let you have the last words, but unless they are dramatically different from the ones above, we can safely assume they are wrong.
Heckler, ok, I apologize for mischaracterizing your argument.
And I agree that since no one has been charged with “outing a CIA spy” probably means that nobody broke the law.
I don’t know what IANAL means, but at risk of further mischaracterization I’m going to assume it’s for I Am Now At Large.
So we’ll just consider the wimmenfolk forewarned on this issue. ;)
Hey Heckler
Go have that beer. Then bang your head on your driveway for about a half hour.
Your arguement may improve!
Heckler, perhaps you haven’t bothered reading the transcript of Fitzgerald’s press conference in August of last year. Here’s what he said about Valerie Plame:
“Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community.
Valerie Wilson’s friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life.
The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well- known, for her protection or for the benefit of all us. It’s important that a CIA officer’s identity be protected, that it be protected not just for the officer, but for the nation’s security.
Valerie Wilson’s cover was blown in July 2003. The first sign of that cover being blown was when Mr. Novak published a column on July 14th, 2003.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html
Morehttp://csmonitor.com/2006/0407/dailyUpdate.html
JR
I said to hell with beer, I decided to have Jim Beam instead. My driveway is gravel and not hard enough to suit you so I’m going to walk out in the highway and bang my head on the blacktop.
Have a great weekend.
Flike
I Am Not A Lawyer.
But I like your version better.
Back to the highway again.
For when Heckler gets back from the highway:
Heckler, you asked elswhere what a “neocon” was. It’s short for neo-conservative. Richard Perle is a notorious neocon who happens to be jewish, but it’s not a requirement. :-)
P.S. Andrew Sullivan is the archetypical “homocon.” :-) Figure that one out for yourself.
Does anyone remember heckler EVER posting a link?
Do ya think he is just another guy who cant/wont do research, but just parrots what he heard other people say?
If all those things you say are true heck, post the links. Even tinfoil links would show us you can do a little fact checking.
Heckler used to post links, KFG, but people kept reading them. . . and responding.
Rage, You don’t have to be Jewish to be a neocon, but must support the Zionist ideology.
Rage
But what is it? How do you define a neo-conservative? What makes me one?
Not to defend Heckler….
can anyone defend heckler?
He is here defending the indefensible. Some leaks are ok for a President and some are not…….the deciding factor being the Presidents personal whim.
But I hope posting links is not the standard for credibility as a poster.
Not everyone can post links. I can’t.
JR
What is it you want a link to?
You do fine without them, JR. But, if you like, I could look into it–there’s gotta be a way! It’s been a while since I’ve even paid attention to WebTV.
Techies have been making fun of WebTV for, oh, about a decade. ;-) But you have a history there (particularly on this blog!), and you are probably used to it. Hell, I don’t know. If it serves your needs, it’s not for me to say, and it would undoubtably cost you some bucks to switch.
Heckler,Different people probably mean slightly different things, but this is close enough:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_in_the_United_States
Rage
I’d have to say I’m a Paleo. Small government, limited social programs.
Am I a hawk? probably but wouldnt consider myself an interventionist.
For example I don’t look at the Iraq war just in terms of the war on terror, I see it in terms of holding Saddam to his ceasfire terms following Gulf War 1. And he started that.
Small government? Okay. I haven’t seen conservatives in power say that–and mean it–since the days of Nixon.
Aren’t you appalled at “no veto” George’s spending spree?
Slight correction: I guess Goldwater was, more or less, “in power” in the 80’s. . .
Rage
Yes I am, as a matter of fact I’m disgusted by about 2/3 of his domestic agenda. Medicare drug program, huge increase in school spending(I’d prefer to do away with the education department), the way he’s handling immigration.
Anyone who thinks I’m a Bushbot simply hasnt listened to me very closely.
Heckler–
Why did the CIA lodge a complaint and the Justice appoint a prosecutor if there was no crime?
Heckler,”Anyone who thinks I’m a Bushbot simply hasnt listened to me very closely.”
Looks like you’re finally getting the point. Your posts are always predictable.
It sure was fun watching the Bushies try to spin this yesterday on the news shows. Even FAUX had a hard time. And now Specter is calling for an explanation.