Here’s a new one to add to the usual arguments against letting Kansans decide for themselves at the ballot box whether to expand gambling: According to The Kansas City Star, Sen. Karin Brownlee, R-Olathe, recently suggested that Democrats and moderate Republicans are seeking a three-year schools plan because gambling then would be needed to pay for it. The real reason, of course, is that the Kansas Supreme Court and the Legislature’s own auditors have said that schools are badly underfunded, and a multiyear plan has emerged as the best means to the desired end of a constitutional funding formula.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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33 Comments
Rhonda – you just want to see gambling so bad. Why do you want to put another tax on the poor? That is what gambling does. Why not allow gambling every where in Kansas? Why limit it to just a couple of places? There could be slot machines in all of the stores and at the airport. That way you start getting more money from gambling as soon as people get off of the plan. Newton could add them to the train station. If you think that the end justifies the means then there are a lot of things that you could promote. How about making tobacco more accessible to everyone? The revenue is big and it could be used to fund schools. You could also make alcohol more accessible and allow it to be sold every where not just the liquor stores. Seeing how you are so into teaching children that they can get something for nothing by funding education with gambling you should also be willing to look at these other sources of money. Brownlee is probably right with what she said because the attorney has already said that a three year plan is not going to be acceptable because then there will not be increases in those years to keep up and he feels the schools have been so under funded that they have to have all of the money now. Gambling is not the answer. There will be costs that you are not going to want to fund later. There is not enough money now to feed the hungry and house the homeless and with gambling there will be more. Just take a look at New Orleans. They had gambling but they had a majority of their people were poor. Why was that Rhonda? Gambling should have solved everything right? If you want Vegas go to Vegas there will never be a casino that makes you feel like you are in Vegas here in Kansas.
Get-o-i: Well said. My sentiments exactly. Gambling produces nothing of value. Just lots of flashing lights and ringing bells in hopes of lining up the cherries.
Gambling brings no money into the community but takes lots of money out each morning, loaded on the money truck going to New York City or wherever the owners are. It would be a giant net loss to Wichita and Kansas for that matter.
Shame on the governor for saying, in effect, “I want to do it for the kids.”
why do you think you can decide whats best for me?why is America only free for the things you decide?
Iww,
Do you understand the concept of a representative republic and democracy?
If people don’t think gambling is good for the community then we are also free to vote against it and not support it.
Nathan – “If people don’t think gambling is good for the community then we are also free to vote against it and not support it.” EXACTLY. That is why we should have a referendum.
G-O-I and JWink – “Gambling produces nothing of value. Just lots of flashing lights and ringing bells in hopes of lining up the cherries.” Same thing can be said about sports and concerts. We held a referendum about the Communist Arena to support those activities.
Ben: Agreed. Gambling casinos and tax financed arenas for professional sports have a lot in common. Provide lots of flash and glitz in a few hours and later, in the middle of the night, swoop off to New York with the giant profits from Wichita.
Isn’t it ironic? Because only minimal parking will be provided for the proposed downtown arena, the new plan is for the customers to drive to the present Kansas Coliseum to park and then be shuttled back to downtown Wichita to the arena. Before the election, the arena supporters cried white elephant tears about the distance of the Coliseum from downtown.
Also, the county has discussedmoving Wichita’s Old Cowtown to Park City near the Kansas Coliseum to draw more business and put it on a profitable basis. Not a bad idea. And also let Park City buy the Coliseum and remodel it as previously planned. Currently the County Commissioners are considering dismanteling the Coliseum so it doesn’t compete with the arena.
County Manager Buchanen on Steve McIntosh’s KNSS radio interview Sunday morning admitted the downtown arena will be a giant money loser with losses to be offset with “extra” tax collections that might come in due to a quarterly cutoff schedule.
I still think the proposed downtown arena could be cancelled if the voters would vote out the entire current county commission. Also get rid of County Manager Buchanen. We need an effort to vote out all incumbents in the August primary election and November general election.
Has anyone noticed the tremendous outflow of major downtown businesses, law firms and banks to get out of downtown Wichita before construction of the arena begins? Once the arena opens, on arena days, downtown parking will be disrupted which businesses can’t afford. Perhaps the downtown library should also move north up towards Park City.
Question: What do you feed white elephants? Answer: Lots of green cash.
Good points JW. One thing I would say in defense of a casino as an entertainment venue is that its useage will tend to be more constant. That means that parking etc can be dealt with. A venue that gets used only sporadically is more difficult to support.
Parking is not going to be an issue for the Downtown Arena. That issues has been covered, but I believe people have a tendacy to think of parking lots like malls or even the Colisuem.
Downtown arenas are not set up like that. I’ve been to two cities that have downtown arena and stayed at hotels right next to the arenas on big event nights. Crowed streets before and after, but everything cleared out within 30 minutes. It will work for Wichita.
I seriously doubt Cowtown will move up to north Wichita.
The downtown arena is going to be a good thing. Gambling and casinos I could care less about. The state already does lottery and keno, if it wants to get into casinos, that is up to them.
One thing I dissapprove of is the political tatic of using kids and school funding for casinos. How about wanting a casino for a casino sake. Not as a last ditch effort to find a few million dollars for schools.
“How about wanting a casino for a casino sake. Not as a last ditch effort to find a few million dollars for schools.”
Joe, I completely agree with that statement. If we want casinos, lets have them. If we dont want them, then quit using school funding as the carrot or the stick.
Kansas has an honesty problem. We couch so many things as “moral” issues that are not… and so many moral issues as financial issues that are not…
No wonder we as a state cant figure out which way is up. Our leaders try to tell us black is white and white is black.
And then they dont know why we cant trust them?
Guy up North is Right.
No Incumbents!
Joe – which two cities? And how did they handle parking for people who were not staying in hotels next door?
If I can have a referendum on taxes and spending I’m all for a referendum on gambling. You cannot, in an intellectually honest manner, argue for one and not the other.
BlowJo – we had one on the tax/arena issue. Unfortunately it passed. I could also see doing a referendum on other specific projects. However, I don’t know how one would structure a generic one.
Here we go again…
I attended an event at OKC’s Ford Center last year. We parked very close by–within a block. Traffic cleared out within 20 minutes. Joe’s right, no parking problems and no traffic problems. It was a VERY enjoyable experience and I’m looking forward to similar ones here in Wichita.
JWink, where is your source for this plan to shuttle people to the arena from the Coliseum? I have heard of no such plans, and it honestly does not make much sense.
Your idea of Park City buying the Coliseum has merit, but please note this was not “previously planned.” During the arena campaign there were two options under consideration: continued control by the county or demolition. Something that should be considered in your idea, however, is that the county is renovating the Coliseum pavilions with some of the arena sales tax money. Undoubtedly, they would be cautious about selling the Coliseum complex after sinking another $10 million in renovations into it. Perhaps a partnership with Park City can be developed so that the county can ensure the Coliseum does not compete for events with the DT Arena but serves instead as an overflow or secondary venue.
Lastly, one bank and two law firms hardly qualify as “tremendous” outflows from downtown, not when every other major bank and 90 other law firms remain downtown. Besides, these three organizations did not cite the arena as reason they were moving. Please stop blowing things out of proportion. You’re a smart and articulate poster, you don’t need to exaggerate to make a point.
Seeing your post, Shocker ‘07, reminds me to ask whether you computed the interest rate on the Wichita-Eaton deal, as you promised you would.
Thank you for reminding me, KCL. With tax season and the end of the spring semester approaching, I had forgotten about this. Gimme a few seconds…
7.4121%. That’s not including inflation, which is probably around 2% a year. The original loans were at a 5% rate, so this is about right.
shocker – you parked a block away. I assume then that there was plenty of parking in existence?
Not any more than in downtown Wichita, Ben. Except for a small parking garage attached to a hotel on the Ford Center’s grounds, there is no exclusive parking for the arena (that I could identify at least). People parked in Bricktown, at the convention center nearby, on streets, and in other non-arena downtown parking. Our arena will have the state building parking lot closeby, Old Town, and numerous garages and lots used by the 20,000 people who work downtown during the day. If there is enough parking for them, there is enough parking for 15,000 people at night. I won’t argue that at the first few events, people might feel frustrated trying to find a spot–because they are used to malls or whatever where they can always park close. But once people get used to it and realize that a four block walk is nothing, we’ll be fine.
Satte building? I had been told it was unavailable. It will be quite interesting to see how parking plays out. I heard a LOT of complaints from students this winter about WSU and Koch.
Would you expand on that interest rate? How many years did you use? The Eagle piece said 30 to 35 years to start being paid back.
As Shocker,07 stated. I stayed in Oklahoma City right next to the Ford Center during a Hornets BasketBall game.
There is so many small parkinglots doted around downtown that everybody took that up and it worked great.
The other is St. Paul during several nights they had a Metallica Concert, a Bush campaign stop, and another concert that I forget. But they have no large parkinglot or parking garage. Eeverybody took advantage of all the small parking lots. It worked out great. The same will happen here in Wichita.
A referendum for casinos is needed. The casinos should be government owned. The attendant social ills that gambling brings can then be addressed with the collected revenue.
As to Ford Arena, I attended a dog show there. There is a large garage UNDER part of the arena. It cost us $10 to park there. Not a viable option in Wichita where our arena, built 25 years too late (it should not be built at all at this point) will fail. Wichitans walking 4 blocks? Not unless you pay ‘em to do it.
Casino?
How many of the downtown parking lots are available at night? Many are restricted. We parked in the old Macy’s parking lot one year for RF fireworks, and it took us forever to get out on the street. Parking was free, but…
I’m still not sure which site was chosen for the new arena. Will someone educate me? I must’ve fallen asleep. Isn’t it near a railroad track? Or am I confused?
RD..It is the site bordered on the East by the RR tracks, on the North by Douglas. I’m not sure how far South it goes. I would say it is basically where the old Spaghetti Works was.Actually, the bus station is not too far away.. depending on the hours, there is parking in that area.
Joe – doesn’t St. Paul have public transportation? That runs after 6 PM?
Ben, I have used the state building parking lot on numerous occasions at night, on weekends, etc and have never had a problem. I talked with Ed Wolverton of the downtown development corp awhile back and he told me most parking lots/garages are available to the general public after hours. Some are free, some still require a fee. The Garvey Center, for instance, where I work, the garage charges a fee during the day. But after 5:30, the attendants go home and you can park anywhere in the garage for free. I use it all the time for events at Century II–it’s closer than the dirt fields where Water Walk will be and it’s free, unlike the meters on Century II’s grounds. People will have to be resourceful like this and learn their way around downtown for the arena, but if the inbreds in Oklahoma can do, we can too.
RD, 100,000 people downtown for the fireworks is hardly a good comparison to the 15,000 for the arena. 20,000 people work downtown, so before and after an event traffic will very closely resemble rush hour. And rush hour downtown is hardly noticeable. The arena will be bounded by William on the north, Waterman on the south, the railroad tracks on the east and Emporia on the west. Here is a link to a page that shows an aerial view of the site:http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/index.cfm
KCL, I used a 23 year period. Actually, in the course of writing this I discovered an error in my calculations, specifically I did not include the amount of the loan for the commercial portion of the property. I have also discovered that I am illiterate, as the interest rate is calculated later in the council’s minutes–here is the link:http://www.wichita.gov/NR/rdonlyres/08E3181E-4904-4472-BB5C-9A333BE49782/0/04042006Council_Minutes.pdf(Page 32-33 by the way). The city shows an interest rate of 4%, which I assume is the original 5% rate adjusted by 1% for inflation. The future value is $1.69 million (rounded) with a present value of $427k. The city will receive in addition anywhere between $1.2M and $400k if the Eaton is sold within the next 5 years (I don’t think the article mentioned that, but it is an interesting fact).
Back when lawmakers were campaigning for liquor by the drink and a state lottery, we heard promises of using the revenue from them for education. Of course the schools never saw a dime of that money. Are we going to get suckered again?
Well it sounds like the downtown arena cheerleaders are spinning the arena issue again. Shocker’07, you sound suspiciously like one of the Steves who posts here regularly.
In any case, it would be nice of the EAGLE editorialists to establish a thread relating directly to the proposed arena so we don’t have to hunt and fish for it.
It must be a lonely world for the 200 or so pro-arena people who are eagerly anticipating spending the 1/4 of a billion tax-payers dollars to be provided free of charge by the 160,000 Sedgwick Countians who now don’t want the arena.
Some people like to point to the “democratic” election which essentially ended in a tie even though the taxpayers were charged some $300,000 for promoting the arena. Of course, opponents had to pay for our efforts out of our own billfolds.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I have noticed a lot of major companies have moved out of the central part of Wichita to suburban areas prior to construction of the arena. Obviously I don’t have inside information about why they are moving because all I know is what I hear in the coffee shops. Some that have been mentioned:
Two law firms, one of which is said to be the largest in Wichita.
Commerce Bank. This was my old bank in downtown Kansas City for many years. And I recall visiting with the owner, James Kemper Jr., way back.
Cox Communication supposedly moving from the beautiful old Wichita railroad station. Wonder who will save this historic Wichita structure now?
Delta Dental Insurance Company, my dental insurance company, is reportedly moving from just north of City Hall to the northeast part of Wichita. I hope they provide a new mailing address.
Feist Company and their successors have moved from near the downtown library to somewhere else.
Harley Davidson Motorcycles is moving to Park City.
I have heard Big Dog motorcycles is also moving.
Several manufacturing companies already in business in large buildings up in the Park City vicinity were previously closer to downtown Wichita.
The proposed public-financed Wichita Technical School should be located in more of a central location perhaps in the WaterWalk area near the downtown library and other resources. Was this considered by anyone? This is exactly the kind of activity needed in downtown Wichita.
Probably others I am not acquainted with or can’t think of right now.
These companies should have been sold on staying in Wichita to help redevelopment of the downtown area. What happened?
When I used to visit Wichita a lot back in the 1960’s and 1970’s, I always wondered why Wichita had no large downtown “skyscrapers” carrying a Boeing, Beech or Cessna signature and flag.
So now what are we getting with our hard-earned tax dollars? A mostly useless arena for which no one can say what it will be used for.
Regarding parking or rather virtually NO parking being provided with the 1/4 billion dollars of taxpayers money. This is “Mickey Mouse” not to provide parking on a one car per two arena seats ratio on site, adjacent to the arena. Developers of office buildings are normally required to furnish parking in the ratio of four spaces per thousand square feet of office space. Medical and dental buildings because of more density of usage usually require more. Shopping centers and warehouse space usually less. BUT NO DEVELOPER CAN CLAIM PARKING LOTS ON HIS NEIGHBORS PROPERTY TO REACH HIS RATIO. Furthermore, if the arena should be sold or leased to a private operator, neigbors’ parking cannot be sold, leased or claimed of course. Taxpayers should be up in arms about this travesty.
I have never heard the drainage problem has been addressed. How will the millions of gallons of stormwater be dispersed through out the downtown streets to the Arkansas River?
Frankly this arena needs to be stopped now until important answers are provided. And then another vote taken before proceeding.
Winky, it is SO good to hear from you again on the arena issue. I am serious about saying that. Honestly, your posts about the arena make me smile and brighten my day. Believe me, there is no one I would rather go a few rounds with on the arena than you. It is AMAZING how you can come up with some the arguments you do. You have to be one of the most creative people I know. Alright, you already have your gloves on, here we go!!
200 pro-arena people? Thank you, sometimes it seems like less than that on these boards, but there were 800 of us volunteers on the arena campaign. And if there are 160,000 against the arena, that means there must be 166,400 for it because we WON the election by a 4% margin.
1/4 billion dollars…election was a “tie”…you like to round things UP, don’t you??
Where is your evidence that these two law firms, Delta Dental and Commerce moved out of downtown because of the arena?? Without it, these events are merely coincidence.
Old Town developer David Burk has already commented that Union Station is already all over the radar by OT developers.
This next part was great. Fiest moved out of downtown YEARS ago. Before they were bought by Yellow Book, they moved into offices at K-96 and Webb. The arena had nothing to do with that. Harley Davidson had me rolling: they are moving to Park City not from downtown but from WEST WICHITA. What the hell does that have to do with the arena?? Nice try, though.
Big Dog might be moving because they are running out of space at their current complex. Go ahead, blame that on the arena, too. Before we know it, World War II, the Iranian hostage crisis and the Crusades will all be the arena’s fault…
Yes, the aviation tech center should be located in downtown, MILES away from the nearest airport. Good idea. If the students ever actually need hands on training (which the idea is like every day), we’ll just shuttle all 200 of them to Jabara.
None of our aviation companies, at least, have headquarters downtown most likely because it makes economic and logistical sense to have the headquarters on site at their plant. But of course, enticing these companies to downtown was never a priority either because that would cost money. Gasp!!
No one can say what the arena will be used for?? Winky!!?? Surely you didn’t miss previous posts on this blog and the message board regarding the economic development benefits. Oh, and by the way, I hear there may be Thunder games, basketball games and concerts there, but that’s just a rumor…
Yes, parking will be a problem because the 8,000 parking spaces in downtown and Old Town are figments of our imagination…
Yes, Winky, storm water has been addressed. Remember your ramblings awhile back on why Century II was located near the River? To recap: the arena will not generate any more storm water than the site now generates, and this water will likely be drained from the directly into the storm sewers below, skipping the streets entirely.
The arena needs to be stopped and another vote taken? Why, just because you lost the first time?
Winky, as always, it’s been fun. Yeah, this is Steve. I changed my name because of the four other Steve’s–even I was getting confused as to who I was! You guys did a hell of a job during the arena campaign, hats off to your efforts! And to your continued efforts, I truly admire your persistence.
Shocker’07/arena cheerleader: I wish your pro-arena group would listen carefully and not jump so fast to retort. I probably should stop debating this issue because its obvious you all are on a huge high over spending a 1/4 billion dollars of other peoples’ money for your own private goal.
Frankly if a 1/4 billion dollars was being spent for making downtown Wichita the jewell of midwestern U.S. cities, I could get interested. Or If we built a world class American Indian history research center, I could get interested because of my long in-depth interest in Shawnee Indian history. If we were building a world class research center for new forms of energy or if we were building new facilities to furnish all the employment opportunities this town will need for the next 25 years or so, yes this would be of interest to me and almost everyone in Wichita.
But to dumb down Wichita by using a massive 1/4 billion dollars of regressive sales taxes to build an arena which is not needed, and will be in the wrong location, and will ultimately be another white elephant, draining endless funds from the taxpayers IS FLAT OUT WRONG.
I predict now that the main proponents will be long gone by the time the arena starts gorging money.
You might recall me saying I was one of the early ones saying Wichita should find a private sports developer to build a privately owned arena just east of the Ice Rink and south of Lawrence-Dumont Stadium. Of course, the pro-arena people short-cutted the situation by setting up the taxpayers to pay for it.
Incidentally, shortly after I more or less moved to Wichita in about 1996, I suggested that Wichita should get a large 24 hour retailer (I was thinking of K-Mart, Wal-Mart or Target) on the south edge of downtown approximately where RiverWalk is in order to get 24 hour traffic there. I also suggested putting an “S” curve from Maple/Lewis to Waterman which seemed to leverage into the RiverWalk concept.
Regarding my figure of 1/4 billion dollars for the arena, I suspect it is on the low side when you add in portions of the salaries of the city manager, county manager, downtown incorporated manager, head of chamber of commerce, county and city employees who spend a lot of time on this project but are paid out of their separate budgets.
And as I have stated, there will be an unfunded liability for parking that will be requested later particularly if the arena is sold or leased to a private operator.
And to briefly review the vote on the arena. As I recall, 81,000 voted against it and perhaps 83,000 voted for it. However, I am personally acquainted with a lot of people in Sedgwick County, perhaps more than anybody else, and I can say with certainty that a tremendous shift has occured and now probably some 160,000 are dead set against the arena. This anti-arena split is going to cause problems for Sedgwick County in various elections for years to come.
Regarding why all of the companies moved out of downtown or avoided moving into the downtown area, obviously I’m not going to say what went into their discussions. I doubt if any one person knows. But its obvious a lot of great companies are NOT begging to get into downtown Wichita. If this downtown redevelopment had been done properly, some of those companies would be building downtown.
Regarding the “manufacturing tech center,” which I prefer to call it — it should be more or less centered in its student pool. I suspect students might drive there from Pratt, Wellington, Newton, El Dorado as well as from all points in Sedgwick County. Putting it out on the east side of Wichita doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
Seems like you objected to my comment of why no corporate headquarters buildings were built in downtown during their prosperous years, the 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s for Boeing, Beech and Cessna. In many cities, home corporations usually have more visibility. Of course, now as far as I know, none of these companies are headquartered in Wichita any longer. For example, Boeing’s headquarters moved from Seattle to Chicago several years ago.
I once asked at least two members of TWA’s board of directors to move their headquarters back to Kansas City from New York where they had moved supposedly to “be near the big banks.” Later a neighbor and friend became the one of the last presidents of TWA.
Regarding storm water running off the roof of the arena, its obviously not the same as storm water falling on dirt and streets and alley ways. Tons of water dammed up on an arena roof could be dangerous of course. And the water will run off the sloped roof at a furious rate. The whole thing must be carefully engineered. I maintain it would be much better to run the potential water directly into the Arkansas River rather than through 100 year old ancient under-sized storm sewer pipes.
Let me know when you are ready to change sides on this arena situation.
Winky, like you I will never change sides. I believe too strongly that this is one of the greatest efforts ever undertaken by local government and one that will dramatically and positively affect our area for years to come. The benefits that projects like this have brought to other cities, which are not that different from Wichita, are too obvious to ignore.
If it is a “private goal” for me to see Wichita prosper, or for our young people to have a reason to stay, or to increase the quality of life of our citizens, or to make our downtown vibrant and productive again, then yes, I guess I support the arena all for entirely selfish reasons. Cavers are so quick to accuse us “cheerleaders” of having some sort of self-interest in this project, I don’t get it. I’m paying the tax, too, ya know. And I don’t plan to reap a dime of financial return off the arena either. Damn me for being so selfish!! How do I sleep at night??!!
Oh, and we’re spending $184 million to make downtown Wichita the jewel of midwestern cities, not $250 million. But you’re right, that’s the point of the arena project and other downtown redevelopment projects. I’ll give you mad props for getting this right!!
So you would like to see my hard earned tax money go to a Indian history research center because you’re interested in Indian history, and you call me selfish for being an arena cheerleader?? Who’s private goal is the Indian history research center?? I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, I would agree that would be a great to have here, but don’t get on my case for spending tax money on my “private goal” and then advocate tax money being spent on yours.
Regarding your private sports arena, see my previous comments on why private arenas are rare. Thanks for your advocation of any arena downtown, but to expect private developers to build something on the scale the county will is crazy. Not gonna happen, not here.
Like I said earlier, you are a creative guy so it does not surprise me that you had visions for something like WaterWalk and the S-curve that will connect Lewis to Waterman. I honestly wish you were on the pro-arena side because we could sure use your ideas, especially in shaping the arena neighborhood.
Your “unfunded liability for parking” again ignores those thousands of parking spaces downtown and in Old Town. I can see them, I’m convinced they’re real.
Your estimation that the arena is now opposed by virtually every registered voter in Sedgwick County is ludicrous. You’re letting your emotions and personal feelings cloud your judgment. The people who are going to be most vocal against the arena are the ones who are pissed off that they were “forced” to pay for it (you live in democratic system, by the way, you can’t always get what YOU want, get over yourselves). The majority of us who voted for it are still out there.
As they say, Rome wasn’t built in a day. To expect immediate results from downtown redevelopment is naive. But there are signs that downtown is trending upward, most notably the work of the Minnesota guys. Look at Old Town now compared to how it was 20 years ago–drastic improvement and change.
Raytheon and Cessna are still headquartered here in Wichita, as is Boeing’s spinoff Spririt. I don’t know if you were implying they weren’t. Enticing them downtown may be a priority in the future, but all seem pretty entrenched in their current facilities at their plants. Raytheon built a new headquarters near Central and Greenwich several years ago and probably won’t be looking for a new building for a great many years.
Yes, Winky, the volume of water that falls on the arena roof is the same volume that falls on the site now. I think it’s safe to say that drainage issues are something engineers and architects plan for. And this may be a revelation, but our arena won’t be the very first one in existence, so runoff is something probably very rudimentary and mundane for the architects. And again, since the same volume of water will be sent into the storm drains, I doubt the system will be burdened. From the looks of the arena neighborhood plans and the conceptual drawings of the actual site, there seems to be more dirt and green space post-arena than there is now. This will, like you eluded to, absorb water.
I don’t expect to change your mind Winky. And I REALLY doubt the arena’s success will change your mind. You will find some excuse to declare its ineffectiveness. Perhaps the ratio of sellouts to events will be lower than at the Coliseum. You are a creative guy so I know you will dream up something. So I’m not here to change your mind, but in the meantime I sure appreciate the entertainment. Long ago I was quite upset and almost offended at some of your arguments against the arena, but now I enjoy our debates. I’m looking forward to next week when the Eagle will undoubtedly lauch a thread in response to the design concept drawings that will be released. I’ll be there all smiles.
Shocker, thanks for the directions and the link. I hadn’t thought about the numbers attended, but you’re right. When it comes to RF, we have our “places” now, and I’m sure the same will be true for arena events.
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