You should have your own TV show “The Spin Zone.”

Sorry, I left out my original source: former County Elections Commissioner. Don’t bother to ask, I’m not going to name the county, him, her, or it.

If you believe that illegals aren’t voting right here in River City, I have some land in Florida (above water twice a day) that I’d like to talk to you about.

Gosh, and since this was about the 96 election, that was a REPUBLICAN controlled house committee that said it didnt affect the race. Musta been a REAL PROBLEM with illegals voting if the r’s didnt use the issue when they controlled congress.

Even your source, STEIN said “occasional fraud investigations” with the operative word being FRAUD. (and “occassional”?) We have dead people voting in Ohio too. Fraud is not the sole possession of immigrants.

Seems like most of your rant is about illegals having drivers licenses. I have no problem requiring other forms of voter identification. I hardly think this backs up your claim of illegal voting. IF you wanna rant about licenses, do so, but please stay on the relevent issue here.

“allow illegal aliens to vote in local elections. So do Amherst and Cambridge, Mass. A similar policy was proposed last month by Democrats in San Francisco.”

So… the problem is some locations VOLUNTARILY enacted a POLICY of allowing immigrants to vote? So much for your support of local control. AND, well, damn them for voting where IT IS POLICY TO ALLOW IT!!!! I dont think it is voter fraud when it is LEGAL!!!

“Illegals also affect distribution of seats in the US House of Representative! They are counted weather they are citizens or not”

Prisons do the same thing. You are talking here about how the house is apportioned, NOT about illegals voting.

“Having broken many laws already, why would they hesitate to file a bogus voter registration? That’s illegal in Sedgwick County; up to 17 months in the clink! Gues how many have been prosecuted???”

This proves nothing. Facts please. How many of them actually DID IT? Then you can ask how many were prosecuted.

You also use the STEIN meme. Must be a google thing. Read my comments above.

Those quotes and links prove NOTHING about illegals voting.

Wanna talk about other election fraud issues in OHIO? Those had nothing to do with illegals.

Urban myth. Meme.

Nice job of proving nothing.

Are you so naive to believe that the vermin who violate our laws would refrain from voting because it is illegal? It is also ridiculous for you to equate wetbacks with homosexuals. I gather that anyone who is not a White Christian heterosexual male is automatically an oppressed victim, right? Check out my wingnut sources at you leisure!

“..Stein says no one can say with any degree of certainty how often illegal immigrants vote, but that there are occasional fraud investigations. He pointed to the 1996 California race between former Rep. Robert Dornan and Rep. Loretta Sanchez, a Democrat, who defeated him by 985 votes.

In that race Dornan challenged the election results and set up a year-long battle over the validity of more than 700 votes, allegedly by illegal immigrants. A House committee voted to drop the investigation of Dornan’s accusations, saying that while they had found evidence of illegal votes by non-citizens, it wasn’t enough to affect the race.

Stein pointed to state drivers licenses as a problem. The so-called motor-voter program that allows individuals to register to vote when they obtain or renew their drivers licenses also opens the process to fraud. Some states do not require applicants to prove they are legal residents of the United States or citizens before they obtain a drivers license.

The problem has not entirely slipped past congressional radar.

Rep. Jeff Flake R-Ariz., introduced a bill that would bar federal agencies from accepting a state-issued drivers license unless the state has in effect a policy requiring presentation of acceptable forms of identification prior to issuance of the license.

“Acceptable forms of identification” would include a birth certificate, U.S. passport, a U.S. certificate of naturalization or U.S. certificate of citizenship.

Matthew Specht, an aide to Flake, said that Flake wanted to close the loophole opened when Congress passed the Help America Vote Act of 2000. That law states that a voter should present to “the appropriate state or local election official a current and valid photo identification.”

“There are some states like California that issue drivers licenses to undocumented citizens. That would be a case where you have a legal form of identification according to federal law … for somebody who is not a citizen and should not be allowed to vote,” Specht said.

Specht called state-issued drivers licenses the closest the United States has to a national ID card, a standard form of identification.”

http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/nov_2003/analysis.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15082

http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20040923-104542-8488r.htm

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_220110555.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15285

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=are+illegal+immigrants+counted+towards+redistricting&sp=1&fr2=sp-top&ei=UTF-8&fr=slv1-wave&ei=UTF-8&SpellState=n-3315186066_q-DKgUdu7lj5VA7O5D3lM8UAAAAA%40%40

http://www.variousandsundry.com/politics/index.php?p=42

Viva La Raza Blanco!!

—–
ksfarmgrl. Be patient, I’ll get there. I also do other things. :)

The Washington Times article by Christina Bellantoni–

***************FAIR. Federation for American Immigration Reform. http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersb9dc

In my home county, Montgomery County, Md., six cities (Garrett Park, Takoma Park, Somerset, Chevy Chase, Martin’s Additions and Barnesville) allow illegal aliens to vote in local elections. So do Amherst and Cambridge, Mass. A similar policy was proposed last month by Democrats in San Francisco.

**********************Having broken many laws already, why would they hesitate to file a bogus voter registration? That’s illegal in Sedgwick County; up to 17 months in the clink! Gues how many have been prosecuted???

**********************Illegals also affect distribution of seats in the US House of Representative! They are counted weather they are citizens or not (yes, that’s off subject ? )

***********************Analysis: Few controls on illegal votingBy Kathy A. GambrellUPI White House ReporterWashington Times WASHINGTON, Nov. 21, 2003(UPI) –“Stein says no one can say with any degree of certainty how often illegal immigrants vote, but that there are occasional fraud investigations. He pointed to the 1996 California race between former Rep. Robert Dornan and Rep. Loretta Sanchez, a Democrat, who defeated him by 985 votes.In that race Dornan challenged the election results and set up a year-long battle over the validity of more than 700 votes, allegedly by illegal immigrants. A House committee voted to drop the investigation of Dornan’s accusations, saying that while they had found evidence of illegal votes by non-citizens, it wasn’t enough to affect the race.Stein pointed to state driver’s licenses as a problem. The so-called motor-voter program that allows individuals to register to vote when they obtain or renew their drivers licenses also opens the process to fraud. Some states do not require applicants to prove they are legal residents of the United States or citizens before they obtain a drivers license. You do the math.”***********************Enough for now?

If it is so obvious, why not back it up?

Or could it be another meme…..

The other 27% were illegal immigrants.

Got a source, a link or something to back up that statement?

Apparently, there are a whole bunch of illegals voting. You must be a US citizen to vote in Sedgwick County. I’m getting on the County commissioners and the Elections Commissioner about why they are allowing this. Some help, please?

NO INCUMBENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“73% of Kansans polled want illegals criminalized and shipped back to Mexico.”

Gosh that’s great news. Already a full 27% of Kansans don’t want illegals shipped back to Mexico. One out of four Kansans has substantial intelligence. Maybe by 2020, we can get the percentage up to 50%, when Kansans are told the REAL, COMPLETE benefit-cost ratio.

If you disagree, mount a campaign to get Brownback out of the Senate. He’s “your” representative, isn’t he?

The number of companies fined?

3

Something else I was going to say. Now what was it . . . I know . . . NO INCUMBANTS!!!!

“You do not belong here” might better have been preceeded by “You are here illegaly” In any event the sense I meant to convey and the feeling that I have is that they do not belong here BECAUSE they are here illegaly. Also I followed it with …Legal means….and make your country better (snipping here) to convey not a sense of exclusion but a sense that they BELONG in Mexico fixing problems and failing that THEN do the legal thing to come here. Sorry the confusion.

NAFTA was supposed to fix this. It was supposed to bring better jobs and environmental standards to Mexico. But even the eccentric Ross Perot knew that the thing would be played by the corps. The giant sucking sound happened just as he said it would. But even though the jobs went to Mexico, the rules to make them better did not change. We did what we could to help and at great cost to us. Mexico can only fix itself.

ASIDE HERE

I am sorry your predicament kfg. I cannot know your persecution. I nearlywan to weep when I read it. I encourage you to keep fighting. Attitudes are changing. I know it is slow.But a little encouragement? My Dad was a high school athlete in Fort Scott in the early 40’s. He competed against black athletes. But they had to have separate locker rooms.When I asked him if back then that felt odd or wrong he said.”No that was just the way it was. No one ever thought that much about it.” Now of course today (to most) separate locker rooms would seem rediculous. Prejudice hangs on of course. But it has to hide in the shadows where it belongs.

I think you will live to see civil unions and the attendant rights. I truly do.

Back to the point.

I know those folks who are coming here from Mexico are ALSO largely of a racial minority (ancient Indian I think) I do sympathize with them. But this is too much. There are too many. They get here too easily. They aren’t assimilating.

What sickens me the most is the complicity of it all. Mexico exports its problems and imports our money. Republicans get not only short term cheap labor but an ever growing assault on the working rights and conditions of Americans. Democrats salivate for a new large population who will need their help.

A new idea is being fielded. Attrition through enforcement. Maybe it has promise.

There is another way no less drastic or painful than total deportation.

Cut off trade with China. Do that and the manufacturing comes back to Mexico and they go home in numbers large enough to force change there.This would be extremely painful to our economy. But the burden would be shared and the expense would eventually start to roll back UPHILL instead of down.

Why are we not screaming bloody murder for the blood of employers who hire illegals? The laws are already there. You can be fined $10,000 for hiring an illegal. Enforce the damn law! If employers thought they really would get fined hard, jobs for illegals would dry up in a hurry. No jobs, no stampede across our southern border. If we give 12 million illegals amnesty now, it’ll be 25 million next time.

I agree with this too.They need to move away from a resource based and extraction economy. I think the money destined for a big fence would be better invested in helping them develop their ecnonomy out of a colonial position with america.

Oh, and did I mention they need some workforce development help too? :)

“That spirit means the attitude must be:”You do not belong here. You are here illegaly. You must leave here. There are legal means for coming here. You are encouraged to explore those means. While you do, consider making your own country a better place to live”

JR, I agree with everything except the “you do not belong here” beginning. None of us “belongs” here like it is some karmic reward. Some of us were lucky enough to be born here or hard working enough to obtain legal citizenship.

If you cut that “belong” part out, I can support every word thereafter. You can start it by saying “you are here illegally”.

—–
…and I never said you were racist or a hypocrit. I dont think that. I’m just giving another point of view. And it seems to me we agree on most of it.

JR,

“And a part of the culture that you want me to embrace is the culture of a people so used to corrupton in their government that they won’t rise against it and correct it because they can run away from it. We have enough of such people in America already.”

No arguement there. We are not doing much to stop the corruption in our government either. And you are right, it is hard for us to run.

But lots of gay people are investigating Canada, Spain (franco is still dead) and even South Africa (!) as better places for us to live. I know, some of you wont miss us at all…

But it is possible, and maybe even desireable sometimes, for us to leave. I am not advocating it, but I have considered it.

After the vote on the hate amendment, I felt that I had decisions to make. I ached to stay on this family land and hated the idea that anyone could run me off my land. Part of me said “stay and fight”.

But… I was also demoralized and exhausted from two years of political wrangling. I was broke from giving my money to the cause. In short, I was tired of the fight. I just wanted to live in peace somewhere my partner and I could be married.

So I sat on the steps my grandad built, and I looked at the farm and I wondered what he would do. After some reflection, I had an answer.

He would do exactly what he did then. Then being when the Russians wanted to persecute him for practicing his lutheran beliefs.

He left.

He got off his butt and quit complaining and he left everything and everyone behind and risked everything for the possibility of the future.

He left, as you said, when he knew it was hopeless to influence the majority. I’m still here, maybe more stubborn or not as smart as Jake. But it’s not like I dont understand, I have a choice where I live.

I find myself in rare agreement with you. Kudos for your excellent arguements.

Others

If expecting immigrants to follow our laws makes me a racist, what does expecting jail time for people who knowingly employ illegals make me?

“Just an aside: You may be an Aboriginal Native. There were no native-Americans.

:)”

Hehe! Okay, instigator,let’s just say Ben’s ancestors lived on this continent a few tens of thousand years before the rest of us showed up. :-) Did your relatives fight in the Revolutionary War, Ben?

But, if we consider the findings of archaeology and paleontology, it’s looking increasing likely that we are all, ultimately, African-Americans!

{Somewhere, Ian is having an embolism. . .:-)

More will come.

And the cost of that?The death of the last shred of the American dream. That and just about any worker protections you can name (market forces) and all the social programs (burdened to bankruptcy)

I gotta go with the racists on this one. (Especially if I’m gonna be accused of being one) At least they have the right answer even if it is for the wrong reason.Total deportation now

DD, you are on A ROLL today!!

JR, I still love your posts, even when we dont agree. ESPECIALLY when we dont agree.

I suspect he entered illegally through canada or mexico. Maybe even brazil since that is where many of his people got onto land.

I cant vouch for my family being here legally, other than my mom AND my dad were anchor babies.

I do know neither grandpa or my grandmother ever collected social security. And they paid taxes, and my dad served in the military.

Maybe I dont have enough generations between me and my immigrant ancestors. Perhaps that is why I feel the cultural issues so deeply. They still call us “hard headed rooshins” out here.

Not that it isnt true… :)

My ancestors on my father’s side were here early enough to fight in the Revolutionary war and on my mom’s side they were immigrants from Ireland in the mid-nineteenth century. The latter dutifully fought for the Union Army during the Civil War. A conflict where the wealthy were able to buy their way out (just like it has always been, and forever will be. Christ should have said “The rich will always be with you”).

JR,I always wondered about your position on this subject. Your explanations help clarify that for me. Did you know that in New Mexico (the nearly perfect part of our planet) that the state constitution and statutes are by state constitutional decree written both in Spanish and English. I don’t think this reasonable accomodation prevents the state from functioning as a representative state democracy. Surely you’re not saying your position would preclude New Mexico from doing this?

The illegal employment problem will only be dealt with when employers are consistenly fined for hiring them. Won’t happen until at least 2009.