The state has seen fewer abortions each year since 2001, according to the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, most recently experiencing a nearly 8 percent decrease between 2004 and 2005. For most, the 10,542 abortions in Kansas last year remain too many for comfort. That 46.6 percent were performed on out-of-state women is hardly a point of state pride (and what’s up with 80 Kansans having abortions out of state?). And many Kansans, seeing that 1,849 abortion patients were 19 or younger, would conclude students need better access to sexual education in schools, rather than the opt-in approach recently adopted by the State Board of Education.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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58 Comments
I really like the idea of having women who are considering abortion see a sonogram of her fetus. I think that will reduce the number of abortions considerably.Oh, and free birth control. Completely free, for everyone who wants it. Not just the pill, which is a pain in the ass to take every single day at the same time, but also long term options like Depo, IUDs and Norplant.Planned Parenthood works on a sliding scale, which is good. But I don’t think it’s enough. There’s only one PP location in Wichita, so people without transportation are disadvantaged. Plus, I know a lot of young women who don’t qualify for free/reduced birth control because they make too much money, but still don’t want to shell out an extra $30/month avoid pregnancy. Sad? Stupid? Yes. But so true.There’s also the slightly unfair fact that all the birth control options (except condoms) fall on the woman. She’s the one who has to pay to not get pregnant, even though it takes two. So let me say this again…we really need a male birth control pill ;)But seriously, free birth control is a great idea that we need to consider.I’d also like to see sex ed that not only covers contraception, but also addresses the serious emotional issues that come with having sex. I remember sex ed being so detached and clinical…perhaps we could get counselors in the classroom emphasizing the emotional aspects of sex.But at least this is something we can all agree on–we all want less abortions.
Yes Tara, women really are that stupid that they do not know it is a baby that they are killing.And yes I am being sarcastic, but to say that they need to see an image to know just what it means to abort a fetus. Is saying the same thing, that they do not realize it is a child they are having killed.
Aborting a fetus is killing a child. But abortion is needed till we learn to be a responsible species.
I don’t really see how people think that sonograms will convince people that a fetus is a person and they shouldn’t have an abortion. 90% of fetuses are aborted before 12 weeks. Have you seen a first trimester sonogram? Not really an impressive picture of a child. So, in some ways I don’t care if they make a woman look at her sonogram, though I don’t think they can ethically “make them,” offer it, sure. On the other hand, I think it is a thinly veiled another stupid and pointless regulation to make abortion providers jump through more hoops. Make them buy a fancy machine, charge them if some woman says they didn’t show her a picture, whatever. It is also pretty insulting to women – you are dumb enough to have made this decision so unreflectingly this picture will change your mind.
We certainly need better birth control. However, the scary thing for the future of reproductive decisions in the state is the Abstinance only plan by the board. And, I get tired of hearing abstinence is the most effective means of preventing pregnancy and stds. This is only theoretically true. A study found abstinence less effective than birth control. Yes, this means people who were supposed to be abstinent were not. However, it speaks to the fact that even if abstinence is effective, abstinence education is not the most effective in delaying and protecting from preg. and stds. Abstinence programs would only work if they made it impossible that sex were an option. State imposed chastity belts. Their day is coming.
Tara, there is male birth control beyond condoms. It’s called a vasectomy. Some of us men don’t put off the responsibility on women.
It’s good insurance to keep you from paying 18+ years of child support.
Universal free birth control is a wonderful idea.
A good start would be getting insurance companies to cover it, right now they mostly don’t.
allies point about forcing clinics to buy an expensive sonogram machine( mostly to put economic pressure on them) is a good one that I had not considered. Let the pro life folks buy the machines and have their own clinics….as is done in Wichita. There is such a facility right next door to physician Tiller’s clinic.
Most of the abortion clinics have sonogram machines so the cost would not be factor. With the technology of the 3d sonogram it is amazing what you can see. At 12 weeks you can see little hands and toes.
Most of the women having abortions have not given thought to the fact they are taking a life. They have been led to believe that it is just a gob of tissue. In fact it is a life and not a glob of tissue.
You know guys can take control of the situation and keep their pants zipped up. Women have to make decisions and recognize that they are the ones that will deal with the major part of the outcome should they become pregnant.
It is interesting that the women can have an abortion without telling the father of the child and she can give birth to the baby without telling the father of the child and then at some point decide that she wants the father to now pay child support but she did not even tell the father she was pregnant. This is wrong. If she decides to keep things hidden then she has made the decision to not involve the father and should not be allowed to go back later and collect money when the father has not been allowed to be a part of the Childs life.
The government could probably do a great service by offering free sterilization to both girls and boys to avoid the unwanted pregnancy. This could do a lot in decreasing the number of children aborted, going into foster care, going fatherless etc. It is time for the government to stand up for and promote honoring yourself by waiting until marriage and not promote promiscuity by saying we do not want to have sex but if you are we are here to help you. Let’s help them the other direction and offer services and support before sex.
It is good to see the number of abortions going down but it is still sad see the quantity of abortions and that many women are coming in from out of state. As far as the number of women going out of state I think that can be summed up that it is easier for them to hide this from everyone if there is no record of an abortion in the state in which they live.
If women are so proud of having abortions then why don’t they talk about them? Instead they hide the fact that they had an abortion. Most of the time because they know that it is not real received and they may be dealing with guilt and shame.
Representative Brenda Landwehr should have come out sooner about her abortion. She can have an impact on a lot of women that are considering an abortion or those have had an abortion. I hope that more women that have had abortion will have the courage to tell their stories. It is important for people to understand what happens after the abortion. Many times depression and other mental health issues arise.
Thank you Rhonda for bringing this information to our attention it was interesting to see the new report. Hopefully the numbers will continue decreasing.
RubyIf women are so proud of having abortions then why don’t they talk about them?
I had a hemorrhoid operation and sure don’t talk about that either.
“Tara, there is male birth control beyond condoms. It’s called a vasectomy.”
I can see the roadside signs now, “Have you neutered your husband yet?”
writerdogAborting a fetus is killing a child.
By popular demand, the following is a post from a previous thread.
The laws of natureIf our legislators had any guts at all they would define “when it is human?” and settle this never ending squabble.As many of you already know, due to nature’s metamorphosis, a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, a cut worm becomes a moth, a tadpole becomes a frog, a grub worm becomes a June bug and a sperm from a human male has a chance of becoming a human.A caterpillar is not a butterfly, a cut worm is not a moth, a tadpole is not a frog, a grub worm is not a June bug and a sperm from a human is not a human. In fact, after conception, it is nothing more then a loveable parasite in a human female’s body, sucking life from this host body. It will continue to suck life from this host body until it either dies in the womb or the umbilical cord is cut. Until that time (the cord is cut), based on the law of nature, it cannot be called human.
Thank you Harry TaylerNo incombents
North Guy,Enjoyed your _The Laws of Nature_ a second time.
Walker, X -I know a guy who fathered two children after he had his vasectomy. This can happen in a small percentage of men. Thank God that didn’t happen to me, the big V ended my career of firing live rounds. :-)
Ruby,So, are you saying abortion clinic should have 3-d machines? Isn’t that expensive? I could definitely show you a host of sonograms that aren’t even nearly as clear as these ones, http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/ultrasounds/l/blusweek12.htm
Let’s also remember that we are saying that 12 weeks is the top end of the 90%. An actual size 12 week fetus is less than 1 inch in length!! Women, when the ask to see it, are regularly surprised how much more like a blob of tissue the products of abortion look like than a baby.You must have meant to say that it is a fact that a fetus is alive, saying it is a fact that it is a life, as in a separate, independent, person apart from the mother, is well, your opinion.
How is having an abortion not dealing with the outcomes of becoming pregnant?
I agree with you that it is strange that women can later decide to force child support payments. But, I think it is going to be unfair to someone, so given that pregnancy is unfair to women given men will never face death, they get that unfair part.
I don’t think women are trying to hide abortions by going out of state, since medical records are always protected (and worse in Kansas with Kline). Their states may have fewer providers and more restrictions, like SD.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with keeping private things private, especially because prolifers will be judgmental and only believe their story IF they feel really, really guilty. http://www.imnotsorry.net will also show you women who are neither guilty nor embarrassed to talk about their positive abortion experiences.
The PASS arguments is so boring. The 1 predictor of mental problems after abortion is having mental problems before abortion. Make people aware that people that have mental health problems before abortion may have them afterwards, if you want to be honest about it.
Interesting sex ed views. Sterilization – many people do not want to be permanently sterilized. It would be wrong to suggest this as an answer to young people, who may later decide to have children.”Honoring yourself by waiting for marriage” You got any back up for this one that isn’t a religious one? What is wrong with pre-marital sex? The public health evidence from the CDC is that abstinence pledges may delay intercourse, but they have as high STD rates from other sexual activities. I would never want my government saying “take a cold shower” until marriage as sex ed.
Good posts Guy. The hemmoroid thing made me laugh. Like your tag line too.
I keep forgetting to post mine and so for the first time and from now on……
pres.bush? ANSWER HARRY!!
yeah allie.
Hey Ruby that steriliztion line jumped out at me and chilled me right down to the bone. Government supported sterilization? That’s a step away from government mandated sterilization. Even bringing suggestion of such a thing is frigthening.
pres. bush? ANSWER HARRY!!
The fact that there are fewer abortions now may be a direct result of more abortions in the past.
Unwanted children have unwanted children.
I hope it is a sign of access and prevention. I worry that it is a sign of lack of providers and women being convinced to bear a child because babies are so cute, who turns into a toddler that is so easy to beat.
GFUNAgain, your logic is way misplaced and you are dead wrong: A tadpole is a frog, a cut worm is a moth, yadda yadda yadda, by the very reason of something of a minor nature called DNA. Without it, you would be correct, with it, you are wrong. Which is why a fetus is a human being: DNA says so.
If it wern’t for DNA, a cockroach could be a human, and a chimp could be a dog. It don’t work that way, ergo, a moth is a butterfly whether you want it to be or not.
Save your argument for something you know about, and leave the science to people who do know what they are talking about.
I think it’s a good idea to include fetal development in sex education, and women should have the right to be as informed as possible when making the decision to terminate their pregnancy. Don’t count on abortion clinics to do the educating though, they’re only interested in terminating pregnancies and have nothing to gain by giving a woman the opportunity to change her mind.I have to disagree with the assumption that women who suffer trama after an abortion are the ones who struggle with emotional problems anyway. That’s just not true. I also think the % of women who regret having an abortion is higher than stated up thread. I’ve known many women who suffer trama post-abortion, and to suggest that the reason they suffer is because they’re mentally unbalanced is not only an insult, but also a mean spirited attempt to invalidate their feelings of pain and loss. Even women who feel like, for them, terminating a pregnancy was the right decision, often still suffer from feelings of pain and loss. Sadly, to some abortion is no big deal, but to many others it is.
GFUN. I have to agree with JM. No matter how many times you repeat your theory, it’s no more valid than the first time we read it.
The attitude of some on this thread remind me of a cartoon I saw a long time ago. A woman is sitting in an planned parenthood clinic that has a prolife clinic next door to it, and the counselor is telling the young woman, “Oh, don’t go next door, they’ll just try to talk you out of the abortion that we’re trying to talk you into”.
PS Thank you, Harry!
If I were in charge, i’d give every Leftist liberal male in this country a vasectomy, this way I could get support from the liberal females as well.
walkerAnd I guess you do know what your talking about.You tell me one thing in my post that is NOT a fact.
Thank you HarryNo incumbents
DamoonMy post is not a theory.Read if carefully now – You tell me one thing in my post that is NOT a fact.
Thank you HarryNo incumbents
DD,I worked with a guy who had TWO failed vasectomies.
There’s one for the books.
“Nature finds a way”.
Sigh……..
I promised myself I wouldn’t do “abortion” any more. It is such a football.
I like your caterpillar/moth take Guy.
Abortion has decreased ok good.
Hasn’t poverty increased?
pres. bush? ANSWER HARRY!!
Wrong picture.
That girl drank too much beer.
Damoon,Given the amount of factually inaccurate information given out by the prolife centers (abortion causes infertility, breast cancer, etc), I hardly think the other side is a paragon of of unbiased information. You are in medicine, you should know that doctors are constantly expected to work against their own self-interest and to make sure their patients are fully informed. The pro-life side has no expectations of professionalism, and given that all their grusome pictures are “doctored,” is your bias anything approaching factual? And wouldn’t your joke work equally as well in reverse “Don’t go over there to planned parenthood, they will just talk you into the abortion we are trying to talk you out?”
But, to “assumptions.” That the primary cause of post-abortion mental difficulties was pre-abortion metal difficulties was based on an 8 year longitudinal cohort study, peer reviewed, and published by the American Psychological Association.
Your “I just think . . .” that’s an assumption; you know, your opinion based on anoctodal evidence. Does it being the primary cause, mean their are not other causes? no. I certainly not trying to invalidate their individual feelings, but I also am tired of having those feelings exploited by those who would deny the choice to have abortion to others. An individual woman should certainly receive appropriate care and support for whatever problems she may have post-abortion. A woman should be prepared to realize that her choice for abortion is as lasting a decision as having a child is. We are not arguing there. The question is should the women that experience such things be justification for denying other women that right? The majority of women do not suffer serious, or long-term problems post-abortion. A common feeling after abortion is relief. Abortion is a big decision, usually coming at an otherwise very difficult time in women’s lives.
I realize we go around and around about this, but well, it takes two to tango, I guess. I guess I will just wait until we get to hear about how great that extreme premie of yours or your future grandchild is, as though either of those wanted, hope for children had anything to do with the abortion debate.
This is an interesting story.
Understanding AbortionMonday, April 10, 2006 12:00 am
Doctors explain how abortions are done
It wasn’t a time to debate but to educate.
Even with the hottest of hot-button issues on the table, emotions ran cool at Sunday afternoon’s Salinans for Life event that featured two doctors with opposing views on the issue explaining exactly what happens when abortions are performed.
“There’s a time and place to debate the morality of abortion,” event organizer Clarke Sanders, president of Salinans for Life, told a crowd of about 50 that filled Knights of Columbus Hall, 115 N. 10th. “This doesn’t happen to be that time or place.”
The event featured Dr. Amy Hogan, a Wichita family physician who counsels abortion alternatives at Choices Medical Center, which is next door to Dr. George Tiller’s abortion clinic; and Dr. Merle Hodges,
a Salina obstetrician/gynecologist who sometimes refers those seeking abortions to Tiller’s clinic.
The purpose, however, wasn’t to discuss the morality of abortion but to explain exactly how they’re done.
“A lot of times, we call ourselves pro-life or pro-choice or pro-abortion or anti-abortion. Whatever terms we’re throwing about, we’re talking about abortion in that abstract,” Sanders said. “For a lot of us, it is an abstract, but the fact remains that for the millions of abortions that have been done legally in this country since Roe v. Wade in 1973, it’s not an abstract concept. It’s a very real concept. So our purpose today is to find out what happens during an abortion; it’s trying to take the abstract out of it and make it real.
“If we call ourselves pro-choice, what is it we are defending the right of a woman to do? If we call ourselves pro-life, what exactly are we condemning?”
The doctors took turns describing the eight basic types of abortions, and in each case, the other was given a chance to comment on what was said, and the audience was allowed to ask questions.
The eight types are:
• Suction aspiration. It’s typically done within the first six weeks of pregnancy and involves inserting a tube into the mother’s uterus and using suction to extract the contents.
• Dilation and curettage, commonly called D&C, which is done prior to 12 weeks of gestation and employs the use of instruments to pull and scrape out the contents of the uterus.
• Dilation and evacuation (D&E), which is done in the 13-22 week range. This procedure requires that the woman’s cervix be dilated, then the baby’s body is suctioned out piece by piece. The head generally is too large to be suctioned out and has to be grasped by forceps, the doctors said.
Hodges said that type of abortion often is troublesome.
“The problem with a D&E is the size of the fetus,” said Hodges, who said he doesn’t perform abortions but has witnessed many. “When you’re talking about doing an evacuation on a 16-week fetus, you have real problems. It is very, very difficult and fraught with disaster.”
One person in the audience asked if the baby’s body parts are recognizable.
“Definitely there are feet, arms, head — they should all be identifiable if they’re not completely destroyed by the suction machine,” said Hogan, who has performed some of the described procedures for patients who have miscarried. “They would be identifiable by a lay person as different parts of a teeny, tiny baby fetus.”
She then passed around a replica of a 16-week-old fetus.
“This is a little human,” she said. “If it’s not a human, than I don’t know what it is.”
• Salt poisoning/saline injection. This type of abortion, typically done in the third trimester, is seldom done anymore, the doctors said. The procedure involves injecting salt water into the amniotic fluid that the child breathes and swallows as a means of killing it. Labor then is induced, and the mother delivers the baby dead.
“It was a procedure where the mom might have to wait 24 hours for this baby to kick and squirm and finally die,” said Hogan, who is nine months pregnant with her third child.
• Prostaglandin chemical abortion, which is used after 22 weeks. A large needle is used to inject medication into the child’s heart to stop it from beating, then the mother is given a hormone that causes her to go into labor and empty her uterus.
A person in the audience asked what happens if the baby is delivered alive.
“The abortionist will tell you the biggest complication of some abortions, especially in the late term, is if a baby is born alive,” Hogan said. “They are trying to determine for sure that the baby is not alive and will watch with an ultrasound until the baby’s heart stops.”
Someone then asked what happens if an aborted baby lives.
“Then, the baby has rights,” Hogan said.
• Hysterotomy. This procedure also is not common, the doctors said, and involves injecting medication to stop the heart and then delivering the deceased baby by Caesarean section.
• Partial-birth abortion, which has been criticized heavily by the pro-life community for its brutality, is becoming more and more rare, the doctors said.
“I’m out of my element on this one,” Hodges said. “So many of these procedures, I cannot envision.”
Partial-birth abortion involves delivering the live late-term child feet first, leaving just the head inside the mother. At that point, the doctor makes an incision in the top of the neck and suctions out the baby’s brains, killing it.
Because babies can easily be born alive with that procedure — and because of the public outcry against it — abortionists are tending to select other procedures, Hogan said.
• RU-486, a pill that can be taken within the first 49 days after conception, stops the embryo’s cells from growing. Labor then is induced.
“I have trouble accepting it as a viable alternative to suction aspiration,” Hodges said.
In addition to questions about the procedures, the doctors also fielded general questions about abortion.
One woman asked under what circumstances an abortion would be necessary to protect the life of the mother.
Hogan said the American Medical Association has taken a position that there is no medical reason that would require an abortion. Hodges said that in his 40 years of practicing, he’s never seen a case where an abortion could remedy a situation where the mother’s life was in danger.
“It’s so rare as to almost not exist,” Hodges said.
Another person asked how much abortions cost. The doctors said they run from $300 to $600 for earlier-term abortions and up to $3,000 for late-term procedures.
Among those in attendance was Rachel Hinde, 25, who rejected pressure from people in her life to get an abortion when she became pregnant two years ago.
“I’ve always been really interested in the whole pro-life/pro-choice movement,” said Hinde, a Kansas Wesleyan student who works part time at the Pregnancy Service Center. “I think you can always educate yourself more. It’s really important to be educated. Whichever side you’re going to be advocating, you need to know what you’re talking about.”
Reporter Darrin Stineman can be reached at 822-1416, or by e-mail at sjdstineman@saljournal.com.
©2005 Salina Journal
I am probably pretty foolish for even commenting on this thread. But for me, it comes down to this, I don’t know what is the right thing to do for every woman who might have an unwanted pregnancy. I am a male and because I don’t know what is right for any given woman, I support there being choice.
It is probably a cop-out, but like Clinton, I would prefer to see abortion legal, but rare. And, I sure wonder how abstinence sex education is going to help make abortion more rare?
correction “abstinence-only” sex education
Just a thought: if abortion is murder then should women who get abortions be prosecuted for murder and thrown in prison,and since an abortion is premedited that and killing a child are the beanchmarks for the death penalty should women who get abortions be put to death. I would bet if prison were a consequence of a abortion alot less women who had abortions would fell a lot less guilty.
Proving you can’t do abortion without sidedness-She then passed around a replica of a 16-week-old fetus.
“This is a little human,” she said. “If it’s not a human, than I don’t know what it is.”Does that mean anything before 16 weeks is fair game? I know what is a human – the woman in whom the 16 week old fetus is gestating.
It is always the same – the pictures of the fetus that leave out the woman. Was there even an umbilical cord on the little model? Was it inside a womb, or god forbid a woman? Prolifers get mad when you tell them they ignore the woman, but they always do. You can’t abstract the fetus from the woman gestating! Show me a living 16 week old fetus that isn’t grafted into a woman’s uterus and totally dependent on her, and I will call it A human, too.
The AMA is a political body. There may not be many diseases where a pregnancy CANNOT be risked or where an immediate abortion would “save” the woman, but there are many conditions for which a pregnancy is highly dangerous and the women do risk death by becoming or remaining pregnant. I have one of these conditions. It doesn’t mean that I will definitely never have children, but I know that it is a major risk that no one should force on me unwillingly.
Please, for our sake, Allie, don’t reproduce. One of you is more than enough!By the way, my friend’s grandson is over 6 lbs now and at home. I guess it IS possible for a 25 week old fetus to turn into a human afterall….we’re so glad his mom granted him his personhood!!
Well, thank you Damoon.Ah there we go Damoon, I love the saga. I think your little 25 week old fetus did get born, so yes it is truly possible for a fetus to become a human. Umbilical cords get cut all the time. Amazing how that happens, one moment they are totally dependent on another human being, and then they aren’t. Crazy.
Yeah, reproduction is something isn’t it? I’m sure if those nasty little parasites could find a way to get born without being dependant on some poor woman’s uterus we’d all be better off for it!
Meow!
Am I gonna have to separate you two?
Man sticking his nose in here on a female issue.
We’ve not met Allie. I would be on your side. I am also pro choice. That said, you are a bit strident.
Damoon? You and I have reached at least mutual respect as to our views on this. Forgive a friend for suggesting that “yeah allie do us all a favor and don’t reproduce” is a bit over the line.
We save THAT line for neocon bush apologists!
pres. bush? ANSWER HARRY!!
Walker – DamoonI am still waiting for an answer to my up posts.I guess I can assume by the dead silence, you are not smart enough to come up with an answer.
I’ll be nice. JM Walker did answer your question and the answer was DNA. A catepillar has the same DNA as a butterfly. Same for all the others. There is permanent continuity between them, a catepillar will not become anything else besides the exact species of moth that its catapillar form was. A child is not an adult, but they are both humans. Your post is a statement about language. We distinguish a tad pole from a frog because they look different, but a child looks very different from an old man, too. This is an issue of language.Now, since I am prochoice. The big different for me is that a tadpole doesn’t have to live inside a frog to become another frog. This process will happen without the demands of another being. Host animals have every right to use their immune systems or anything else they can to get rid of a parasite.
Guy, I’ve answered you several times, I get tired of repeating myself, maybe you’re just not smart enough to remember.Allie, I’m sorry. I truly respect your opinion even though I don’t agree with you. It’s just hard for me to see a fetus as a parasite, since I’ve carried babies to term and given birth 3 times. To me it’s nothing short of a miracle. Life is precious, and I believe everyone deserves a chance to be a part of it, even if the situation isn’t perfect.I’m sure if you decide to have a baby someday, you’ll be a loving and supportive mom to your offspring.
DamoonYours are emotional answers not facts. I want to see facts.
gfun,Both Allie and I answered your ridiculous assertion. While you make an idiotic statement “I guess I can assume by the dead silence, you are not smart enough to come up with an answer.”, you obviously cant understand the term DNA. Allie said it much better than I. Me, I get tired of hearing moronic statements by people who have no idea of how biology works. The world aint flat, and a caterpiller is a moth. If you want to make a nonsensical claim that it isn’t, be my guest. But you are doling nothing but showing your ignorance.
Damoon-I often wonder if having children would change my mind about abortion. They are one of the greatest joys in life, and I wonder in the end whether I will feel not having kids was worth it if I don’t have any. I just remember too well what it was like to be totally unable to imagine even being pregnant let along raising a child, and had too many students whom I feel the same way about. I don’t expect that every girl will make the sorts of decisions I made to make sure they didn’t get pregnant. No one thinks that abortion is a good thing and I can understand why you paint it so darkly (even when I think many prolifers majorly stretch the truth); I guess I just have a stronger belief that it like a lot of medicine can be a necessary bad thing.
You might be surprised, Allie. My daughter used to be prochoice until she had 2 children of her own. Becoming a mother and experiencing that kind of love makes you see the world in a different way. I hope someday you do become a mom, I don’t think you’ll regret it.
Ok, I can’t keep quiet anymore.
Ultimately this issue boils down to one of women’s choice.(Ideally it would be the “father” and “mother” but often the guys split once they find out the girls pregnant)Sometimes it is in the medical best interest of the women, sometimes it’s just not the right time.Most women don’t talk about having one because we as a society think less of them. We have the extreme people that protest at abortion clinics and scream “Murderer!” at the scared females entering the gates and yet they (the females) are supposted to shout to the world “I am in a situation that I handled to the best of my ability and I’m proud of what I’ve done” while holding their head high?!?It is kept quiet and swept under the rug because in theory it’s great but in practice it’s the elephant in the middle of the room.
I would invite all pro-lifers (and pro-choicers for that matter)out there to open up their checkbooks and contribute to Catholic Charities or some other entity that provides support for mothers. I believe that will do more to reduce abortion than picketing.
Amen, Ben. It is something I have been doing for years.
OK Allie, educate me.You say a catepillar has the same DNA as a butterfly. Does that emply a fetus does not have the same DNA as a human?
I have never said that the fetus does not have the same DNA as the child that is born and the adult he or she becomes. For me, it is an independence issue not whether a human fetus has human DNA.
Boy, you guys have lost me.I know nothing about That DNA thingy.My question has been, What in my post is not fact.It may be as Walker says I am ignorant on the science side and when it come to DNA I’ll admit I am.Allie, I realy apprappreciate and respect your input on this and the interjection Of DNA has apprarently convinced you my logic is not correct. Will you please explain it to me in plain words why my logic is not correct.
Upnorth,DNA is relevant to this argument only if it is the sole defining characteristic of a human being. I’d like to think there’s a lot more involved in being human than a particular crystalline structure in our cells, particularly since that structure isn’t all that much different than that contained in broccoli.
Me too, Ben. The clinic next to Tiller’s is my personal favorite.
Sure. Please don’t be offended if I am over-simplifying. DNA is a “code” in every cell. Every protein that can ever be produced by your body is coded on the DNA. For example, babies when they are born are not producing very much sex hormone. But, the code for the proteins that make them start producing massive amounts of those hormones at puberty are already coded on their DNA. Those proteins just aren’t expressed yet. When the kid gets old enough (and it probably had to do with weight, too), a group of proteins will make the DNA in certain parts of the body (gonads) turn on and produce sex hormones. The DNA is the same in every cell in your body, but only parts of it are expressed to make your eye an eye and your ear an ear. (If you want to know more about how this happens, I can tell you, but it gets a little long.) And some of the DNA is only used at specific times during the life-cycle. As the proteins change, you change, but your DNA doesn’t. So, the DNA in a tadpole and a frog are exactly the same. The difference is that certain proteins are being made from the DNA when it is a tadpole, and other proteins are made when it is a frog. There are some species where the changes that take place due to different proteins are spectacular, and you have mentioned a number of them. In other species, it isn’t as dramatic. This is why I say the issue is language. We could call catepillars baby butterflies and be just as accurate as calling kittens baby cats. They look more different than the adult form, so we think of them as more different, but at a cellular level they are not. If you handed me a catepillar cell and a butterfly cell, I would not be any more able to tell them apart than I could a kitten and a cat(and the same is true for a fetus and an adult human).
Man, I can see I am way over MY head.My reasoning was based in simple science I learned in grade school.
Walker your right I don’t know what I am talking about.
Apparently my question has been answared but I don’t understand it. All I want to know is what part of my post is not a fact.
So I guess sense you all say I am wrong I just won’t post “The laws of Nature” anymore.
I appreciate all your input.
Baby crys too much?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/705561.html
Just goes to show that ALL religions have their lunatic fringe.
There are still over 10,000 abortions performed in Kansas every year, that’s way too many as far as I’m concerned. We need to do a MUCH better job at preventing pregnancy, and witholding sex education from our kids is certainly not the way to do it. Ignorance always has a price that must be paid.
Well, I just stumbled across this site and just wanted to say that my husband and I have been trying to have a child for quite a while and I have had 3 early miscarriages. Now I am pregnant with a little baby boy that I would give anything to have him. I am 20 weeks and was worried that I might have to adopt. It’s the women who are brave enough to give another person sonething beautiful and alive that are saints. Some may even later choose to keep their baby and make something. I hope that abortion keeps declining and more babies can be saved.
I think everybody agrees with that, Lacey.
Here’s hoping that everything goes well for you and yours.
Welcome to the forum.