Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline isn’t defending only our state’s death penalty law Tuesday before the U.S. Supreme Court, in a rehearing of the case of Wichita murderer Michael Marsh. As a Christian Science Monitor article noted Monday, the case "could force as many as a dozen states to rewrite their death-penalty statutes and make it more difficult to impose a capital sentence." That’s because of the wording that has snagged the Kansas law on the Constitution’s Eighth Amendment, by seeming to tilt a jury’s decision toward execution when the factors that favor and disfavor a death sentence balance out.
With another Kansas jury sentenced a ninth man to death in recent days — Sidney Gleason in Great Bend — all Kansans can hope that today’s arguments will at last determine the fate of the state’s unused 12-year-old death penalty law.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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50 Comments
As prosecutor, I for one will not mourn the passing of the death penalty. I know it is popular, and I understand why. The public simply doesn’t believe the gov’t when it says “life without parole.” And some crimes (Carr brothers, for example) scream death penalty. And constitutionally, certainly, it is not a violation of the 8th amendment, the SC’s Roper travesty notwithstanding (involving JV death penalty).
That said, in the modern legal procedural climate, capital punishment simply is too expensive (it’s more expensive to execute than to lock up for life), too slow to be any sort of general deterrent (if it is at all, a doubtful proposition), and puts fallible humans, despite the best intentions of lawyers, judges, and juries, in the position of executing someone for a crime not committed – it has happened before, and will again.
Given all that, I’d vote to abolish it.
GM–you make a lot of sense. Part of me says execute them…but as you point out, how often does that really happen in a timely manner? Richard Rameriz (the night stalker in LA) was convicted and sentenced to death in what, 1986? He is still on ‘death row’.
It has lost any ‘deterrant’ factor, and as you point out, horribly expensive, time consuming, and there is that chance of error.
Put em away for life…so they can die a little bit each day.
Agree a lot with both. I have a rope I would dearly love to use on the carr brothers (one on each end) but also realize the unlikelihood of that happening.
The death penalty should not be done away with, it should be expanded. The execution should be carried out within one year of sentence being handed down. Also. capital punishment should also extend to rapists, pimps, child molesters, etc. I personally would also like to see exuctions made public and/or broadcast on television.
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!!
BH,
In the good ole days a rope would have been used on da carr brothas.
V.L.R.B!!!
I’m beginning to understand why Spanish settled and occupied lands seem to give rise to more than their fair share of petty despots/juntas and death squads.
So true Brian!
What’s wrong with hanging the Carr Brothers with a bungy cord? It shouldn’t take more that a week or so.
G,Unfortunately that falls under “cruel and inhumane”. Personally I think that they should live the last 3 hours of their lives tortured like they tortured their female victims.
GMC70:”As prosecutor, I for one will not mourn the passing of the death penalty.”
I may be profoundly ill. Or, maybe that moldy bread I ate has something to do with this. I am agreeing with GMC70 two times in the same day.
Who’da thunk it.
Julie- You’re right, of course. Your idea is right on the money.
Interesting idea gster – and do it from one cord strung over a railing si they can stare into each others eyes as they die.
DD
Maybe that sky really is falling!!!
We probably agree more than we disagree, truth be told. Same is true for most on this blog (again, our two resident nutjobs Ian and Ed excepted). But sitting anonymously behind our computers, we can take the most extreme positions, and throw around nasty names with impunity; in person we would have to be agreeable and compromise.
Oh, well. Longing for the good old days won’t make it so.
As I’m sure you guessed I have no moral objections to capital punishment, but as a practical matter, it doesn’t work, and is too costly. Let it go.
When we agreed to become civilized, we gave up the right to revenge because it was destructive to civilization. We replaced revenge with the concept of justice. Justice is not the state exacting revenge for the individual, it is the taking of a wrong, and setting it right as nearly as possible. This, of course, is less satisfying to the wronged than tearing the offender limb from limb, but in a civilized society, it will have to do.
Julie, During that 3 period you propose, how about really make it torture and have someone read Nathan’s blogs out loud to them?Maybe that woould push it into a Geneva Convention violation.hour
GMC70, I agree (for different reasons, of course). But what you say makes a lot of sense. Capitol Punishment is all about revenge. What kind of revenge do you get if sentence is postponed for 20-30 years?
Execution is a function of government. That means us. I personally don’t want any part of killing anyone unless it’s in defense of my or my family’s life.
Put them in jail forever. To me, life in prison would be far worse than death.
My main beef with the death penalty is that in our justice system it is quite likely an innocent man could die for a crime he did not commit. Yes there are many appeals, but an awful lot of prejudice goes along with that first conviction. And unfortunately we have not justice for all but justice for those who can best afford it.
What? You think I’m a softie? Just another “let ‘em live” “liberal”? Nope I am not against the death penalty. But you have to be SURE. Life in prison is pretty poor life as XXX says. That takes care of the guilty. But if mistakes are made and a conviction overturned it’s little comfort to say we are sorry to the family of the dead “criminal”.
Folks like Rader or the Carrs? They deserve worse than the death penalty. Put them on public exibit in an iron cage in the town square. Nobody is allowed to kill or hurt them. But the public is encouraged to “express” itself to the exibitee.
http://www.hutchnews.com/opinion/editorials/stories/conduct042306.html
Ian -
Executions one year after conviction? How many innocent people do you want to kill.
Take a look at the list of the 123 people so far who have been released from death row after a wrongful conviction – http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=110 – and you’ll notice that only 4 were exonerated within a year. The average person spent 9.2 years on death row before being cleared and released. I can’t support executing 119 innocent people.
XXX is indeed correct. Executions are nothing more than revenge. How many times have you read the victims family say the execution will bring “closure.” What nonsense. There is no such thing as closure. If there is, it certainly does not include executing the guilty party.
Do you think the victims of the Oklahoma city bombing gained closure when tim mcvey was executed? What they got was a dead terrorist. The dead are still dead, the families, friends and loved ones will still mourn their deaths, and the man who could have been used by the government to see exactly what made him tick is dead.
As for using the death penalty as a deterent, Ridiculess. Never did and never will. Curb passion and you might deter some murders, but there will always be murders: man is still an animal.
Lock em up for life, and pick their brains, if they have any.
Ever notuce that anybody who disagrees with Ed is automatically a zionist bastard? I bet if Osama Bin Laden disagreed with Ed he would be a zionist bastard. Hell, I’ld like to be a zionist bastard just on principle. but I ain’t a zionist.
I think people who kill should have to pay for the life they took with their own. If life is valuble, then that’s how it should be. The argument about it not being a deterent I don’t understand. How many murders have been committed by criminals who have killed and then been released from prison after a few years. I would be in favor of life sentences without the possibility of parole, but look at our prisons. One can go there, get fed, free legal and medical care, get pumped up, have sex, do drugs, get a free education, and hang out with the home boys. They can watch TV, read books, do art projects, many of the things I’d love to do if I didn’t have to work for a living. It honestly sounds better than most college dorms, and it’s certainly better than anything most criminals grew up with. Maybe if going to prison was more like going to a concentration or boot camp, I’d be more supportive. Many criminals are happy in prison, does that seem fair for taking someone’s life? I don’t think of the death penalty so much as revenge, but justice.If a rabid dog killed someone, it would be mercifully put to sleep. It should be the same way with a murderer.
The claim that the DP is revenge isn’t even close. The DP isn’t even justice. It is only a way to stop injustice from increasing.
As long as the murder victim is dead and the murderer is alive, injustice exists. Every day that the murderer stays alive, the injustice has been increased. That is true for even the kindest of murders. In the case of the murder of Jason Befort, Heather Muller, Brad Heyka, Aaron Sander and Anne Walenta, allowing the murderers to live is an abomination that is too gross to be measured. Sadly there are many other cases that cry out for the pursuit of justice. That is the best that the death penalty can be, the pursuit of justice. The failure to pursue justice is the failure to remain civilized. No society that doesn’t use the death penalty is fully civilized.
“No society that doesn’t use the death penalty is fully civilized.”
So Western Europe and Canada are not “fully civilized” but Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, and North Korea are?
“No society that doesn’t use the death penalty is fully civilized.”
Well, that explains the past 6,000 years of recorded human regression towards barbarism. We live in a Through the Looking Glass world where we were generally more “civilized” at the dawn of our history than we are now. An interesting position to take, but…
400 years ago virtually every crime was a capital one in the British Isles. I believe this is perhaps the first argument against the DP – any attempt to single out certain kinds of crime as deserving of death will be arbitrary and discriminatory.
“Iran, Singapore, Malaysia, and the Philippines impose a mandatory death sentence for the possession of relatively small amounts of illegal drugs. In Singapore, which has by far the highest rate of execution per capita of any country, about three-fourths of persons executed in 2000 hadbeen sentenced for drug offenses. Some 20 countries impose the death penalty for various economic crimes, including bribery and corruption of public officials, embezzlement of public funds, currency speculation, and the theft of large sums of money. Sexual offenses of various kinds are punishable by death in about two dozen countries, including most Islamic states. In China there are some 60 capital offenses, including all those listed above.” Encyc. Brit.
The United States, Congo, Iran, Nigeria, and Saudi Arabiaallow for the execution of persons who were minors (under the age of 18) at the time they committed their crime. Somehow being on the same list as the Congo, Saudi Arabia, and China doesn’t seem to give me any comfort that we’re becoming more “civilized”, but hey, that’s just me.
Earlier posts also alluded to the fact that capital punishment is virtually impossible to apply fairly. The poor as well as ethnic and religious minorities often do not have access to good legal assistance. At least in the US racial prejudice has led predominantly white juries in capital cases to convict black and other nonwhite defendants in disproportionate numbers. In addition, errors are inevitable even in a well-run criminal justice system, some people will be executed for crimes they did not commit.
Further, no studies have definitively shown that the DP has any deterrent effect.
I agree with GMC70. I listened to one of George Gardner’s Sunday morning programs on KEYN a couple of years ago and heard the death penalty discussed by prosecutors. I’ve told others how prohibitive the cost is and how much less in tax money we’d all be paying for lifers, instead. Not that anyone believed me. Glad to hear GMC corroborate.
A life for a life doesn’t even anything out. And for those saying that prison is a holiday, think again. Being incarcerated for life means never–EVER–stepping outside those walls again. I would think most people would go stir crazy in that type of environment, sooner or later, no matter how much TV, Internet, or books are available. And isn’t that the point?
Poor murderers avoid the death penalty at a higher rate than murderers who are not poor. The claim that poor murderers are somehow treated unfairly is one of the biggest frauds around. Almost all poor murderers, about 98 of 100 poor murderers, avoid the death penalty. But only about 50 of 100 non-poor murderers avoid the death penalty. Steve Oken, John W. Gacy, George Sibley, Linda Block and Michael Ross were executed murderers who were not poor. Who were the five non-poor murderers who were not executed?
“Poor murderers avoid the death penalty at a higher rate than murderers who are not poor. The claim that poor murderers are somehow treated unfairly is one of the biggest frauds around.”
Well, welcome to the group, Donnie. You have a link to back that up that claim? Post it, please.
I’m not buying it.
I join Rage in welcoming you Donnie. Your views on this subject are pretty strident. You need links or at least further explanation.
Links? You show me yours and I’ll show you mine.
I was actively opposed to the death penalty for 25 years. Then I read about Amy Sue Seitz and Heather Muller. How strident is that?
Ah, I see. The Carr Brothers are scum, therefore blahblahblah.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I would have no problem lynching the Carr brothers. Despite it’s racist overtones, lynching was used to kill whites murderers in the past as well. So if we want to be PC about it, lynching is actually not much of a far cry…
We lose Nathan and we gain Donnie. Both refuse to support their claims with links to the source(s). Hmmm. Go figure.
With regard to poor inmates avoiding the death penalty at a higher rate than non-poor inmates, simple mathematics shows how that statement can be manipulated to mean anything. First define poor and well-off. Second, if there are only poor inmates in prison, then of course thet avoid thhe DP at a higher rate than well-off ones. I could say “50 poor inmates avoided the death penalty while not one non-poor one got away with anything.” If, ont the other hand, there were only one “well-off” inmate and he were executed, then you could say something like “30% of all poor inmates escaped the DP while 100% of all non-poor inmates were executed.” I could give more examples.
In any event, here’s my link…now show me yours…do a search on it for the word “poor” to save time. Note it comes from the Wisconsin Law Journal.
http://racialfairness.org/Documents/Death%20Penalty/stephen%20bright%20WisconsinLecture.pdf
Early studies of the Kanssa death penalty established it was going to be more expensive than a non-death case – http://www.kscourts.org/council/report_death.pdf – and now with actual figures I’m betting the disparity is greater than anticipated.
J, since when did expense matter to those r’s in charge of the ks legislature? Our state’s credit rating is only one notch above California’s, and they are at the BOTTOM ranking.
In Topeka and Washington DC, they are spending like conservative republicans, so why not spend on a worthless issue that gets their base to the polls? They do have a history of that ya know.
They only care about money when it involves schools or social services.
Otherwise? It’s spend away, damn the budget and the torpedos, and let’s throw in a tax cut while we are at it!!!!
“Links? You show me yours and I’ll show you mine.
I was actively opposed to the death penalty for 25 years. Then I read about Amy Sue Seitz and Heather Muller. How strident is that?”
Oh, brother, we got another one. Where do they come from.
Donnie (with a name like that, if you’re not a girl, your mother needs to be slapped), do you know what a “link” is?
Just think, had you killed Rader, you wouldnt have anything to beat on. Its like the biggest thing that ever happened to Kansas. Still in this stupid newspaper and still argued about on its blogs. Its like beating a dead hores for C***st sakes
Crusader X,Your link provides strong evidence. Strong evidence that if you pile BS high enough it still smells bad. The assertion, in case you have forgeotten, was that poor murderers are somehow treated unfairly. That being the case, poor murderers would be executed at a higher rate than murderers who are not poor. Your link provided no evidence of that. Just the breathless rantings of a hard core murderer lover.
Thre was no evidence that less than 2% of poor murderers are executed. There can be no such evidence, because it is true. Moreover, you know that it is true. In fact, in Kansas, no poor murderers get executed.
Hey Kansas Farm girl,
I’m impressed that you think that people’s mothers should be slapped. I guess we can all feel the love. Love for murderers, that is. By the way, you can’t have my mother slapped, she is dead. She died of pancreatic cancer, a lot rougher death than any executed murderer.
Donnie,
I posted a LINK on this thread?Did you take your meds yet pal?
Donnie,
Ever heard the saying “opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and most of them stink.”
If you want to throw around numbers, statistics, then reference where you got them.
Otherwise, take a whiff of the air around you…a malevolent odeur about, eh?
Does anyone have any idea what don don is talking about concerning slapping mothers? My post said nothing of the sort.
And murder loving? I mearly pointed out that the gop has NO fiscal restraint. Especially in ks.
Since you are clearly incapable of posting links, could you at least explain your rantings?
Oh, I see. It was XXX that said his/her mother should be slapped.
Donnie cant read. Big surprise. I guess all us mean ol’ liberal bloggers just look alike to don don. I dont even think XXX is a liberal.
I feel the love too.
Here is a link for you. It proves I was wrong about poor murderers. In fact, less than one percent of poor murderers are executed.
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html
As for opinions, what was done to Amy Sue Seitz, Heather Muller, Wendy Offredo, Mary Alday, Michelle Ansley and Michelle Thompson wasn’t opinion. Neither is it opinion that since 1976 no poor murderers have been executed in Kansas, while more than four thousand non-murderers have been murdered.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/kncrime.htm
The DP should be restructured so that it is applied equally across the board, adheres to strict guidelines and checks and balances to insure the innocent don’t die, and carried out in a reasonable length of time, like 3-4 yrs. I believe people who murder should not be allowed to exist in society, even if they’re incarcerated. It should cost more to execute someone than to house them for the rest of their life, but that’s OK. We’re a rich country, we can afford it.
That’s junk, Donnie,
When one speaks of providing information, that means from a disinterested source, like a refereed journal. You posted a link to a pro death penalty site. They are not an unbiased source of information. I provided you with a link to a Wisconsin Law Journal article.
In fact here is a quote:
“Contrary to opponents claims, there is no systemic evidence that wealthy capital murderers are less likely to be executed that their poorer ilk. Drawing only on personal knowledge, we found that since 1973, in Texas, alone, at least seven middle class to wealthy murderers have been put on death row. Four, Markum Duff Smith, George Lott, Robert Black, Jr., and Ronald O’Bryan have been executed. Three additional await execution. Extensive, objective research would, undoubtedly, reveal many more. ”
Note the use of the phrase “…DRAWING ONLY ON PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE…”
In other words, the author’s opinion. Not worth spit.
Gosh Brian, using personal opinion as fact? Who does THAT sound like?
OK,OK,OK,
I give up. Who? Does itbegin and end in “N”??
Da,”The DP should be restructured so that it is applied equally across the board, adheres to strict guidelines and checks and balances to insure the innocent don’t die, and carried out in a reasonable length of time, like 3-4 yrs.”That’s an admirable goal, but not really possible without some sort of lottery to choose attorneys and a set limit on fees and expenses for both the state and the defense on DP cases, and that would violate the constitutional right to representation of one’s choice.We’ve gone around and around on this issue for a long time, and there just doesn’t seem to be any way to guarantee equal access to justice for everyone. Superstar lawyers can often skew the system for those who can pay, and all too often, the ones who can’t get stuck with the public defenders who are less than competent and/or underfunded.No matter what the system, mistakes are going to be inevitable. Innocent people have been executed, and will continue to be. With a life sentence without parole, we at least have the option of releasing those who have been mistakenly or dishonestly convicted.
Good point, Jed, but I believe the system can be fixed so that it’s fair and just for everyone. If someone murdered one of my loved ones, you bet I’d want them dead so they couldn’t do it again. Right now all we do is slap people on the hand and take really good care of them for the rest of their life.My own experience was with a man who murdered a couple during a robbery, they were good friends of my family and had 3 children. He since has been out of prison, married and had another child. He couldn’t stay out of trouble and as a result he ended up back in prison and he comes up for parole every 3 yrs. Every 3 years, my family and I go to his parole hearing to protest his release. So far, he has remained in jail, but it’s horrible to have relive the crime everytime he comes up for parole. If he would have been put to death, like he deserved, he wouldn’t have brought another innocent child into the world for the system to raise, and he wouldn’t have hurt the people he hurt after his last release. He had another chance at life after he committed the murders, and he blew it. His victims never got a second chance and their children had to grow up without either parent. It’s just not fair, he should at least stay in jail as long as his victims are dead.