Three members of Christian Peacemaker Teams being held hostage in Iraq were found and freed Thursday. Thank goodness. The murdered body of a fourth member, Tom Fox, was found earlier this month. Conservative columnist Cal Thomas angered many Eagle readers last week with a column criticizing the Christian Peacemaker Teams’ theology and politics. He argued that “peace happens when evil is vanquished.” Several area Mennonite pastors responded, including Martin Troyer. He wrote in Wednesday’s Eagle: “Peace is not a byproduct of war, as Thomas said. Rather, it is a strategy in and of itself. It is a lifestyle that demands us to live today what we want to see in our world tomorrow. It is the way that Jesus, the Prince of Peace, lived.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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254 Comments
Yes thank God, for blessed are the peace makers.
What do the Peace Makers do in Iraq? I mean seriously?
Dear Joe,
Seriously? They undermine our military by ‘getting in the way’. Borderline traitors by US standards and fools by the terrorists.
Hank
I’m just curious what they really do there. Do they hold up protestsigns and blow whistles? Do they stand in front of tanks and humvees? Do they invite terrorist over for a campfire sing-a-long?
I would really like to know what they do over there.
You are right Hank. They divert military intelligence and other resources, including millions of dollars to find and resuce them (or as the peacemakers said: they were released).
It is my understanding that these “peace workers” are basically missionaries but can’t be called such because of the countries that they are in. I understand that these people help set up schools and are teachers. They may set up computers or other needed equipment.I have some friends over in Turkey that do this.
Missionaries shouldn’t go to a country where their converts will get their heads whacked off if the accept Christ!
It’s great to see Wingnuts show their true colors by choosing U.S. military actions over Christ’s commands to his followers. Thanks for the object lesson, Hank.
For the record, here’s the Christian Peacekeepers’ account of their mission:
http://www.cpt.org/iraq/projectoverview.php
Be sure to read the the FAQ in the link that CF posted. It will give you a good idea what this organization really is.
They are simply peace activists who happen to be Christian. There motto is “Spreading the love of Jesus”? No it isn’t. It is “Getting in the Way”.
Christianity wouldn’t exist if it were not for Christians willing to go to places and get “their heads whacked off,” or crucified, or burned alive as the case may have been. Christianity dies (or turns disgustingly trivial, hypocritical, and heretical) in places where it does cost nothing (like here).
I think the Mennonite point is a valid one- that war has never made a lasting peace, and it never can by its own nature. Peace is a different way of interacting in the world. And it is the way of Christ. Realistically, we may need both peace and war practices, but they are different. In that, we need people who chose peace practices over and above war practices, just as Joe and Hank choose war practices over and above peace practices. WWII was justified to eliminate Hitler (an evil ruler, yes, but defeating him did not defeat Evil), but French and German building trade relationships (not part of settlement) in the 50’s leading to the EU is what has kept Western Europe peaceful. And WWII, as Ed will tell you, begat Israel, so it didn’t bring peace. War begets vengeance. None of us are so dispassionate to be able to believe in a just peace; the stronger will always demand more than is fair, and the loser always want vindication. Humans are capable of both evil and good; and war is sometimes necessary to deal with real and present threats and aggression. But, pacifism is not theologically wrong or hopelessly naive. “If we vanquish evil with war, we make peace,” is hopelessly naive. Peace does not come from war; peace is its own way of responding to a world of evil and sin.
I don’t always personally agree with the actions of the peace workers. However, Cal Thomas is wrong in his indictment of them. He claims they only speak out against the US’s injustices (which isn’t true, since many are very active about Darfur and other world situations). But, he is wrong because as Americans, we are culpable for the actions carried out in our name. It is Americans’ first responsibility to decry the injustices of their own causation above all others. “Some despot is worse than we are” is no justifiable excuse. I think it is very dangerous to call these people near traitors or simply a nuisance to our mighty and always right military. The voice of dissent, of self-condemnation, is a difficult one to hear, but it is necessary and good. It is all the more necessary in times of war and strengthening military-political machinery. You can perhaps rightly say that the military defends their right to voice dissent, but that in no way makes the military system immune from being targeted by their dissent.
Dear CF,
There is so much I could teach you, so little time.
Hank
CF,
Please don’t pretend like you even begin to believe what Christ says…
You simply pick and choose which ever verse you can to bash Christians over the head with on any particular day.
Evil is not in Iraq.
Just his results.
If this group was so against our military and what we are doing there then why did they allow themselves to be rescued?
Nathan are you the one I have been accused of being on the other threads???
Allie,
Do you think their actions are cuasing more death or preventing more death?
It would seem to me that every time some group goes there saying what the US is doing is wrong, then gets taken hostage ends up causing more death and placing more people in harms way than good.
Some peaceful people they are…
No idea… I have not had enough time this week to read every thread
good point Nathan.. though I hate war and the death it causes, however it is at times necessary to get rid of an even worse evil.. it is however sad that our own country doesn’t seem to support those willing to take that risk to help give to others the freedom that we enjoy. and instead condemn our leaders
Who are you to decide what they want?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1073070,00.html
{ Notethe date }
Publish Date: October 7, 2002Word Count: 646Document ID: 0F6AB78031758447Iraq: We decide
Right now there is a 10-year-old girl in Iraq, and we are deciding whether she lives or dies. She is one of many who await our decision.
Ed Friedemann
Is THIS why we went into Afghanistan?
Well since he can’t get a 6 foot 5 arab on a dialysis machine…….
bush ougtta latch onto this and call it “Afghani democracy in action”!
by the way “christians”? is the new missionary position kneeling for the executioner?
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” Edmund Burke
JR,
I see your typical Christian bashing self has decided to join the action.
Welcome.
this is long so i bear with it pleaseDear America,
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” -George Orwell
The Marine Corps is tired. I guess I should not say that, as I have no authority or responsibility to speak for the Marine Corps as a whole, and my opinions are mine alone. I will rephrase: this Marine is tired. I write this piece from the sands of Iraq, west of Baghdad, at three a.m., but I am not tired of the sand. I am neither tired of long days, nor of flying and fighting. I am not tired of the food, though it does not taste quite right. I am not tired of the heat; I am not tried of the mortars that occasionally fall on my base. I am not tired of Marines dying, though all Marines, past and present, mourn the loss of every brother and sister that is killed; death is a part of combat and every warrior knows that going into battle. One dead Marine is too many, but we give more than we take, and unlike our enemies, we fight with honor. I am not tired of the missions or the people; I have only been here a month, after all. I am, however, tired of the hypocrisy and short-sightedness that seems to have gripped so many of my countrymen and the media. I am tired of political rhetoric that misses the point, and mostly I am tired of people “not getting it.”
Three years ago I was sitting in a classroom at Quantico, Virginia, while attending the Marine Corps Basic Officer Course, learning about the finer points of land navigation. Our Commanding Officer interrupted the class to inform us that some planes had crashed in New York and Washington D.C., and that he would return when he knew more. Tears welled in the eyes of the Lieutenant on my right while class continued, albeit with an audience that was not very focused; his sister lived in New York and worked at the World Trade Center. We broke for lunch, though instead of going to the chow hall proceeded to a small pizza and sub joint which had a television. Slices of pizza sat cold in front of us as we watched the same vivid images that you watched on September 11, 2001. I look back on that moment now and realize even then I grasped, at some level, that the events of that day would alter both my military career and my country forever. Though I did not know that three years later, to the day, I would be flying combat missions in Iraq as an AH-1W Super Cobra pilot, I did understand that a war had just begun, on television for the world to see, and that my classmates and I would fight that war. After lunch we were told to go to our rooms, clean our weapons and pack our gear for possible deployment to the Pentagon to augment perimeter security. The parting words of the order were to make sure we packed gloves, in case we had to handle bodies.
The first Marine killed in Operation Iraqi Freedom was in my company at The Basic School, and was sitting in that land navigation class on September 11. He fought bravely, led from the front, and was killed seizing an oil refinery on the opening day of the war. His heroism made my emergency procedure memorization for the T-34 primary flight school trainer seem quite insignificant. This feeling of frustration was shared by all of the student pilots, but we continued to press on. As one instructor pointed out to us, “You will fight this war, not me. Make sure that you are prepared when you get there.” He was right; my classmates from Pensacola are here beside me, flying every day in support of the Marines on the ground. That instructor has since retired, but I believe he has retired knowing that he made a contribution to the greatest country in the history of the world, the United States of America.
Many of you will read that statement and balk at its apparently presumptuous and arrogant nature, and perhaps be tempted to stop reading right here. I would ask that you keep going, for I did not say that Americans are better than anyone else, for I do not believe that to be the case. I did not say that our country, its leaders, military or intelligence services are perfect or have never made mistakes, because throughout history they have, and will continue to do so, despite their best efforts. The Nation is more than the sum of its citizens and leaders, more than its history, present, or future; a nation has contemporary values which change as its leaders change, but it also has timeless character, ideals forged with the blood and courage of patriots. To quote the Pledge of Allegiance, our nation was founded “under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” As Americans, we have more freedom than we can handle sometimes.
If you are an atheist you might have a problem with that whole “under God” part; if you are against liberating the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Asia, all of Europe (twice), and the former Soviet bloc, then perhaps the “liberty and justice for all” section might leave you fuming. Our Nation, throughout its history, has watered the seeds of democracy on many continents, with blood, even when the country was in disagreement about those decisions. Disagreement is a wonderful thing. To disagree with your neighbors and your government is at the very heart of freedom. Citizens have disagreed about every important and controversial decision made by their leaders throughout history. Truman had the courage to drop two nuclear weapons in order to end the largest war in history, and then, by his actions, prevented the Soviets from extinguishing the light of democracy in Eastern Europe, Berlin. Lincoln preserved our country through civil war; Reagan knew in his heart that freedom is a more powerful weapon than oppression. Leaders are paid to make difficult, sometimes controversial decisions. History will judge the success of their actions and the purity of their intent in a way that is impossible at the present moment. In your disagreement and debate about the current conflict, however, be very careful that you do not jeopardize your nation or those who serve. The best time to use your freedom of speech to debate difficult decisions is before they are made, not when the lives of your countrymen are on the line.
Cherish your civil rights; I know that after having been in Iraq for only one month I have a new appreciation for mine. You have the right to say that you “support the troops” but oppose the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have the right to vote for Senator John Kerry because you believe that he has an exit strategy for Iraq, or because you just cannot stand President Bush. You have the right to vote for President George W. Bush if you believe that he has done a good job over the last four years. You might even decide that you do not want to vote at all and would rather avoid the issues as much as possible. That is certainly your option, and doing nothing is the only option for many people in this world.
It is not my place, nor am I allowed by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, to tell you how to vote. But I can explain to you the truth about what is going on around you. We know, and have known from the beginning, that the ultimate success or failure of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as the future of those countries, rests solely on the shoulders of the Iraqi and Afghani people. If someone complains that we should not have gone to war with Saddam Hussein, that our intelligence was bad, that President Bush’s motives were impure, then take the appropriate action. Exercise your right to vote for Senator Kerry, but please stop complaining about something that happened over a year ago. The decision to deploy our military in Iraq and Afghanistan is in the past, and while I believe that it is important to the democratic process for our nation to analyze the decisions of our leadership in order to avoid repeating mistakes, it is far more important to focus on the future. The question of which candidate will “get us out of Iraq sooner” should not be a consideration in your mind. YOU SHOULD NOT WANT US OUT OF IRAQ OR AFGHANISTAN SOONER. There is only one coherent exit strategy that will make our time here worthwhile and validate the sacrifice of so many of our countrymen. There is only one strategy that has a chance of promoting peace and stabilizing the Middle East. It is the exit strategy of both candidates, though voiced with varying volumes and differing degrees of clarity. I will speak of Iraq because that is where I am, though I feel the underlying principle applies to both Iraq and Afghanistan.
The American military must continue to help train and support the Iraqi Police, National Guard, and Armed Forces. We must continue to give them both responsibility and the authority with which to carry out those responsibilities, so that they eventually can kill or capture the former regime elements and foreign terrorists that are trying to create a radical, oppressive state. We must continue to repair the infrastructure that we damaged during the conflict, and improve the infrastructure that was insufficient when Saddam was in power. We should welcome and encourage partners in the coalition but recognize that many will choose the path of least resistance and opt out; many of our traditional allies have been doing this for years and it should not surprise us. We must respect the citizens of Iraq and help them to understand the meaning of basic human rights, for those are something the average Iraqi has never experienced. We must be respectful of our cultural and religious differences. We must help the Iraqis develop national pride, and most importantly, we must leave this country better than we found it, at the right time, with a chance of success so that its people will have an opportunity to forge their own destiny. We must do all of these things as quickly and efficiently as possible so that we are not seen as occupiers, but rather liberators and helpers. We must communicate this to the world as clearly and frequently as possible, both with words and actions.
If we leave before these things are done, then Iraq will fall into anarchy and possibly plunge the Middle East into another war. The ability of the United States to conduct foreign policy will be severely, and perhaps permanently, degraded. Terrorism will increase, both in America and around the world, as America will have demonstrated that it is not interested in building and helping, only destroying. If we run or exit early, we prove to our enemies that terror is more powerful and potent than freedom. Many nations, like Spain, have already affirmed this in the minds of the terrorists. Our failure, and its consequences, will be squarely on our shoulders as a nation. It will be our fault. If we stay the course and Iraq or Afghanistan falls into civil war on its own, then our hands are clean. As a citizen of the United States and a U.S. Marine, I will be able to sleep at night with nothing on my conscience, for I know that I, and my country, have done as much as we could for these people. If we leave early, I will not be able to live with myself, and neither should you. The blood will be on our hands, the failure on our watch.
The bottom line is this: Republican or Democrat, approve or disapprove of the decision to go to war, you need to support our efforts here. You cannot both support the troops and protest their mission. Every time the parent of a fallen Marine gets on CNN with a photo, accusing President Bush of murdering his son, the enemy wins a strategic victory. I cannot begin to comprehend the grief he feels at the death of his son, but he dishonors the memory of my brave brother who paid the ultimate price. That Marine volunteered to serve, just like the rest of us. No one here was drafted. I am proud of my service and that of my peers. I am ashamed of that parent’s actions, and I pray to God that if I am killed my parents will stand with pride before the cameras and reaffirm their belief that my life and sacrifice mattered; they loved me dearly and they firmly support the military and its mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. With that statement, they communicate very clearly to our enemies around the world that America is united, that we cannot be intimidated by kidnappings, decapitations and torture, and that we care enough about the Afghani and Iraqi people to give them a chance at democracy and basic human rights. Do not support those that seek failure for us, or seek to trivialize the sacrifices made here. Do not make the deaths of your countrymen be in vain. Communicate to your media and elected officials that you are behind us and our mission. Send letters and encouragement to those who are deployed. When you meet a person that serves you, whether in the armed forces, police, or fire department, show them respect. Thank the spouses around you every day, raising children alone, whose loved ones are deployed. Remember not only those that have paid the ultimate price, but the veterans that bear the physical and emotional scars of defending your freedom. At the very least, follow your mother’s advice. “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.” Do not give the enemy a foothold in our Nation’s public opinion. He rejoices at Fahrenheit 9/11 and applauds every time an American slams our efforts. The military can succeed here so long as American citizens support us wholeheartedly.
Sleep well on this third anniversary of 9/11, America. Rough men are standing ready to do violence on your behalf. Many of your sons and daughters volunteered to stand watch for you. Not just rough men- the infantry, the Marine grunts, the Special Operations Forces- but lots of eighteen and nineteen year old kids, teenagers, who are far away from home, serving as drivers, supply clerks, analysts, and mechanics. They all have stories, families, and dreams. They miss you, love you, and are putting their lives on the line for you. Do not make their time here, their sacrifice, a waste. Support them, and their mission.
And all that’s necessary is for good men do the work of evil for evil to triumph.
And if you really care bring them home in something besides a coffin.
Hank,Spouting the ann coulter line? That’s a really cheap shot considering those people didn’t go over there for money or glory, other than their belief in the glory of God. Get in the military’s way? What the hell is the military doing over there in the first place? Glad you have such a wonderful view of life seems to be to spread the word of God.
JR,Another cheap shot. To die for one’s beliefs is probably the one of the most galant things a person can do. To belittle that is low, bro, low.
The people rescued can, in my opinion, be considered to heroic by virtue of doing what they believed in and were willing to do for that belief. Denigrating them is disgusting.
JM Walker,
There are people who strap bombs to their chest walk into crowds of innocent people claiming to do it for their God too.
I will denigrate, belittle, and say what they do is wrong all day too.
What is the argument about here? It is simply cause and effect. If you are a peacnik and go into a battle zone, you can expect to be harmed or killed.
If you are a soldier and ‘rescue’ a peacenik, you can expect no gratitude.
If I were to use a firearm to save JR’s life from a robber ready to kill him, I would not expect a thanks because I used means that he disagrees with.
That doesnt mean that saving them is wrong and should not be done, just that you should not expect any sort of ‘reward’ for doing so.
JM,
Are you going to say that those suicide bombers are doing:
“one of the most galant things a person can do. To belittle that is low, bro, low.”
Nathan, it is moral relativism at its finest!
Ed do you not understand that they are doing what they believe in..none of these young men or women were drafted, or held at gun point, they did this because the believe in something, and if there are a few who did it for some other reason I feel bad for them because they got more then what they asked for, and that is indeed sad… but most are there because of the love that they have for you ,me our country and our freedoms,I wish that war never happened but it does and I am so greatful that we have those who are not afraid to stand up to evil.
Isnt it interesting that the peaceniks are applauded for doing what they believe in, but the military is not? They are just pawns?
Nathan,
So you see fit to deny MY faith in Jesus Christ? Who made YOU the arbiter of who is an isn’t a Christian believer? In other words, who made YOU God?
I call religious people who disagree with me ‘hypocrites.’ Nathan calls religious people who disagree with him ‘unbelievers.’
Since ‘unbeliever’ is another word for ‘infidel’, I think it’s pretty fair to say that Nathan and his mirror-image, suicide bombers, are cut from the same cloth.
Aint even caught up with all the posts but before I do anything else:
C M especiallyand everyone else
CM My earlier post was meant for the Afghans executing a Christian convert thread.
I posted the “missionary position” post here by mistake.
I am deeply sorry and will post with relevance to this thread just as soon as I’ve read it all
JR,We’ll forgive you this time ;)
Ah, speaking of JR, I owe you an apology. On the CC thread, I mistakenly identified you as assigning me a dubious honorific. Upon verifying the email (which I should have done to begin with) I see that you merely questioned how much time I spent on my knees with my employer. My apologies. You are still unstable.
Hugs, kisses and all that frilly crap.
Don
I apologize CF, I was under the impression you denied the diety of Christ and did not accept him as your Lord and Savior.
Just so I make no mistake:
You do accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and he is the son of God who died for our sins?
Nathan,
Affirmative on both counts.
What does one’s belief (or non-belief) in Christ signify on this thread?
so now CF is suddenly “ok” for having the same belief?
Don you are just to funny..lolhugs and kisses and that frilly crap lol
Julie,
The matter at issue here was Nathan’s mistaken imputation to me of a certain non-belief that I do not, in fact, profess. Seeing as how he has recognized his overreach and apologized, I accept his apology.
However, you are correct: it remains to be seen what bearing my religious allegiance has in this discussion. To wit: whether it is only acceptable for Christians to criticize other Christians. Interestingly, this isn’t something Christ (or even Paul) would argue. Let’s see where this goes.
good question Julie..hooray to for asking it…the threads really get off base sometime..:)
The point, Julie, is that there are many posters here who have no faith in Christ and do not accept what the Bible says.
Yet they miss hardly any opportuinties to try to find something from the Bible to attack Christians with.
So yes, I do point out to them that they are not Christians and are just using whatever they can to bash Christians with.
I mistook CF for one of those posters.
I lampoon religion all the time.
Being an atheist, I have the advantage of a perspective uncluttered by selfrigheousness.
I’d say these “peaceniks” exemplify what I understand christianity to be about a whole lot better than those who assign them that label in seeming contempt.and a whole lot better also than most “Christians” at large.
JR,
Like you know what most “Christians” are like let alone have nay idea what the Bible says in context.
Nathan,
And if such posters, who happen not to be Christian, happen to be right in finding inconsistencey between Christian principles and the courses of action for which Christians advocate, are their criticisms therefore not valid?
Your initial answer to me suggests that you’re leaning ‘yes’. But if you say ‘yes,’ you’re guilty of commiting an ad hominem fallacy.
CF,
I think I have yet to see one of those posters attempt to make a valid argument.
They simply take whatever sound bite they can to bash Christians with.
JR I hate to admit it but I agree with you about the labels..sorry Don I don’t think they are nice or represent a christian attitude..(though we as christian are human and sometimes let our pride get in our way, thank goodness that we have the belief in someone who makes up for that in is)but still lots of hugs and kisses and all the frilly crap
Well, the label may or may not suit anyones fancy. I happen to agree with Cal Thomas. these people are there with an anti american agenda, and thus have earned my derision. If they spoke as harshly of the terrorists that held them and slaughtered one of them, I might refer to them as genuine activists. As it is, they are merely radical operatives in my opinion seeking to stir up hate and discontent. Peace means as much to them as it does to Al-Zarqawi or the New York Times.
“Blessed are the peacemakers………”?
Well said CF.
They hate being held to their own professed standard, and they hate having their own words quoted back to them.
They ESPECIALLY hate it when it is pointed out by a non-christian.
I suspect they wouldnt hate it if the quoter knew and used the context. AFter all, rabidly liberal folks act exactly the same way if we use any of their words against them. Witness: I did not have sex with that woman, miss lewinsky!
Clinton lied and got impeached for it.
When are the impeachment hearings going to begin for bush?
What part of “thou shalt not lie” is out of context?
What part of “thou shalt not kill” is out of context?
Even someone with a kansas education can read and comprehend and determine context.
How about you?
I believe that the “Christian Peacemakers” are hurting the cause of peace. The US is trying to initiate stable self government in Iraq so that we can exit the country. Their presence and their fomenting of resistance (even if it is peaceful) only makes that task more difficult. No matter whether you agree the invasion was justified or not, I think that we can agree it is in the best interest of all that the US be able to withdraw their troops ASAP.
These are peace activists first, who happen to be Christian. My brothers and sisters are misguided.
Ksfarmgrrl,
If you ever even showed one once of understanding when it comes to what the Bible says you might have a point.
You have proven time and time again that you have so little knowledge on the Historical context of the Bible, any context at all on the different books in the Bible, or any understanding of what the overall context is…
You simply pick and choose whatever sounds good to you at the time to use to try to show how Christians are hypocrites or whatnot.
The greek and Hebrew are more accurately translated to say you should not murder, not that you should not kill.
Not that you would know that…
Yes, telling lies is wrong. Can you show me where any of us Christians condone telling lies?
What we disagree on is if what Bush said was a lie.
Are you too, stuck on the same ‘lie’ argument? If so, I will disregard your further posts.
If you can move past it, we’ll talk.
Thou shalt not kill is a typical example of you using a scriptural ’soundbite’ for your propaganda purposes. During the same time that law was codified, the very same God who gave it ordered the razing of nations that flipped Him the proverbial bird.
So if you are going to use that, you must also allow for a nation to go to war. If you disallow one, then disallow the other.
Otherwise, admit that you are deceptive in your intents.
Not that they are a signifcant factor in any way, just fodder for the blog.
kfg, the commandment is more properly interpretted as “Thou shall not murder”. That’s a big difference.
Clinton was actually found guilty of lieing because he did it under oath.
What was it that Bush lied about ksfarmgrrl?
Of course, the Bible is probably just a fiction to you so why should it bother you when any of the laws it espouses are apparently broken?
Dear J M,
It is important that as a poster you try to bring something to the discussion every now and then. When I responded to Joe that their purpose over there was to merely ‘get in the way’, that is thier stated purpose on their official web site. If you go to their web site the general impression is that they are peace activists that merely happen to be Christians.
There is nothing on their web site that would indicate they are there as missionaries. In all of the news reports concerning them I have seen little evidence that they are there “spreading the Word of God”. In fact, if you read their web site carefully, there is not much there that could be used in a court of law to convict them of being Christians. They merely use their Christianity as an excuse to ‘get in the way’!
I wonder about your Ann Coulter comment. I think she is a very ascerbic and funny political commentator. I love her because she has the ability to get a liberal’s panties in wad quicker than any other columnist I know.
Stick around J M. Keep an open mind and you might learn something outside your comfort zone.
Hank
Don’t get comfortable with hypocrisy though CM. There is more than enough representation of that here.
Dont ya just love how fast they can justify that what we read isnt what was meant?
Gee, my lutheran catechism says “thou shalt not kill”. I guess the lutherans just have it all wrong. My bad.
Just because I dont believe, dont assume I dont know. It is what I DO know that causes me to not believe.
I guess lies only occur under oath?
For everyone who cares about the truth….
Here is a little ditty detailing the TOP 15 lies (yes they had to limit the number)
http://www.bushlies.net
google bush lies and see what comes up. I think the technical term is “a bunch”.
Of course, perjury isnt covered here. Just ordinary, garden variety, “truthiness”.
I musta missed the part about “blessed are the peacemakers until they get in the way of whatever particular conflict the true believers call holy”
Well, it isnt a buffet. If you are going to quote from it, you are sort of obligated to take it all into account. Well, I would have to take it all into account. Something about not seeing the forest for the trees or some such. That is just me though and I am merely a hillbilly with no formal learnin’.
JR, dont you know that the bible is written in code so athiests like you and I cant read it?
The only true interpreters are the true believers.
Does that mean I have to believe six impossible things before breakfast in order to review “through the looking glass”?
Just wondering…
Nathan, do you read greek and hebrew? Or is that just something your pastor told you?
Gosh, I mean it’s not like WARS have been fought over who interpreted the bible correctly and who didnt.
I guess everyone must have just read it all out of context. Of course even CHRISTIANS dont disagree about the interpretation of the bible.
Geez, I dont know why the universe doesnt check with you guys for GOD’S interpretation.
or better yet to KFG since you seem to know so much about everything…who needs God we have you.
Hey KFG
If god seeks to speak on such matters, dontcha think he would do so directly rather through several translations in language by various scribes who used to have to hand copy the texts one at a time and may have occasionaly inserted a spare word here or cropped one there?
Oh but that’s right bush talks to god… or is it god talks to bush….. or maybe god talks through bush! Sheesh talk about your poor translations!
lol that was funny JR… not that I agree but it was funny..:)
I suppose if that were the case, why bother having any free choice at all? He could just let each one of us know what is right and wrong, we could make our pick and not have to go through life or experience something called faith.
If everything were fair, there would be no need for a savior, now would there.
Don Beautifully said!!
“He could just let each one of us know what is right and wrong, we could make our pick.”
OMG, I thought that IS the way god was supposed to work. HEHEHEHEH
” not have to go through life or experience something called faith”
I have no idea why that was added.
Why do you think I have no faith or life experience? My life experience tells me to have GREAT faith in the flying spagetti monster.
RAMEN!
And as for buffet….
where is the person (Pl, cf?) who talks about outlawing cheeseburgers and shrimp?
hehehe. Oh of course, that is out of context and not part of the buffet of what REAL christians like these guys pick and choose.
Or the law has changed. Literal bible interpretation has so many pesky details no wonder it is only left up to real christians like these guys.
KFG that makes sense about you…it really does explain alot..thanks
kfg and JR: You guys/gals are pretty good with the caustic sarcasm, but you are showing that theology and logic are more than just a little weakness.
JR, are you trying to argue through your interpetation of part of a bible verse that we should accept that anyone who calls themself a “peacemaker” is automatically right in what they do? Surely you can do better than that.
kfg: Nathan is correct in his interpretation of “Thou shall not kill”. But if you think about it, even common sense should tell you that.
This is way too easy to be fun. Gotta go fry fish for the catholics. BTW, I do it as a volunteer every friday in lent.
If their fairy tales result in good food, why should I care?
Nathan is correct but the lutherans arent?
I guess that just proves my point about YOUR interpretation being the right ones.
“we should accept that anyone who calls themself a “peacemaker” is automatically right in what they do?”
Well outie, who gets to decide who the real peace makers are? You? Them? me? god?
I guess you from the sound of that post.
Outlander, are you familiar with ‘Flatland’? KFG reminds me of ‘a point’.
No, I’m not familiar with it Don.
Now KFG has handed you your lunch far too many times for you to not know she is female OUt. Let me clear up any confusion and confirm that I am a guy.
Ya gotta forgive KFG and me Out…….that is what you religious folk are supposed to do right?…….We don’t get to claim without discourse that we are right just becuase god says so or our paricular interpretation of god is somehow the right one.
I highly recommend it. It was written by Edwin Abbott and is subtitled ‘A Romance in Many Dimensions.’ Abbott was a minister so I doubt very much if some here would appreciate it, but when you read about a point in the first dimension, you will see what I mean.
Even if we dont agree on things, it is pathetic when people are so wrapped up in one thing that they cant seperate themselves from it. At the risk of sounding insulting, I see that I can no more blame KFG for being KFG than I could blame a dog for being a dog. I know that sounds awful, but with some critical thinking, most people will realize what I mean.
Woof
you forgot to add “infidel” to the front of that dog
“Even if we dont agree on things, it is pathetic when people are so wrapped up in one thing that they cant seperate themselves from it.”
Funny, that is what I say about those drunk on religion. They cant separate their opinions from the law either.
We can no more blame don for being don than we can blame a jackass for being a jackass.
Isnt the correct term for female dog a “biotch”?
Nice play on words. I’ll take that as a compliment as long as you add”castrating” in front of it like “infidel” in front of dog.
I thought you were the bull.
I did feel badly about insulting dogs that way…
But speaking of imagery, the jackass was a nice tough as well for one from the elephantine party.
Hugs and kisses KFG, hugs and kisses.
blah, blah, blah…
6th Commandment; Verse 13: “Thou shalt not kill.”
The Hebrew word “ratsach” is translated as “kill” in the King James Version, Revised Standard Version, American Standard Version, and some other translations of the Bible. However, it is difficult to apply this in practice. Killing chickens and beef cattle is legal now as it was in biblical times. Nobody today is concerned about pulling vegetables from the garden, even though it kills them. The word “ratsach” is commonly believed to describe the premeditated killing of a human. It requires that the victim be a human being. Many other translations translate “ratsach” as “murder” in this verse.This Commandment is not absolute. Not all murders are forbidden. Hebrew Scriptures specify many grounds for which this commandment is to be ignored, and a guilty party executed. Persons found guilty of temple prostitution, engaged women who are seduced by a man other than her future husband, women who practice black magic, some women who are raped in urban areas, children who cursed their parents, some non-virgin brides, Jews who collect firewood on Saturday to keep their families from freezing, persons proselytizing in favor of another religion, persons worshiping a deity other than Yahweh, strangers who entered the temple, etc; all were to be executed.A few centuries ago, it was believed that male sperm contained large numbers of tiny babies which only required a woman’s womb to grow and be born. Under that belief system, masturbation could be considered an act of mass murder. We now know that pregnancy requires conception, and that a unique DNA is formed at that time. But society has never reached a consensus on the definition of when human personhood begins. Unfortunately, the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Bible appears to be ambiguous on this matter. Thus, it does not help us decide about when, if ever, abortions are acceptable. If the Bible had defined when the start of personhood occurs, there might not be so much conflict over abortion today.There are tens of thousands of violations of this commandment yearly in North America. Most are done by criminals who shoot people. A few dozen murders are committed by civil servants, who are employed by the state to kill inmates on death row with premeditation. Soldiers are often called upon to murder other humans, sometimes in self-defense, and other times in order to achieve a military objective. There are other biblical passages and a great deal of theological reasoning which have provided justification for the latter two actions.Joshua and his army violated this commandment on numerous occasional as they marched through Canaan, apparently with God’s approval. They were often ordered by God to commit genocide by killing every Pagan man, woman, youth, child, and newborn who lived in various cities of Canaan.Some pacifist Christians take this commandment very seriously. They will not violate this commandment, even during times of war. Quakers, Mennonites and others are frequently able to volunteer for alternative service during wartime in order to conform to this commandment.Historically, many Christian groups interpreted the Commandment as if it read “Thou shalt not murder people inside your group.” The Christian Church has committed genocide many times in its history, exterminating such groups as the Cathars and Knights Templar. Starting in the late 15th century and continuing for 300 years, both Protestants and Roman Catholics rounded up heretics. “witches,” and suspected Satan worshipers; the church executed many tens of thousands of them — often by burning them alive. The Crusades against the Muslims are another indication of the misuse of this Commandment. Defenseless Jews and Muslims were massacred by the invading armies. In recent times, Serbian Orthodox Christians organized a major religiously-motivated genocide in Bosnia-Herzegovina, largely against Muslims.The Westminster Larger Catechism extends this commandment to include the “immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling,” etc. It is not clear how they expanded the meaning of this verse to such an extreme.http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c9.htm
RD pardon my stupidity but what are you saying exactly???
After reading all the post, I come away with one thought.
TO THE CHRISTIANS.You take offense at some words, while one sets in a cell awaiting his fate for his faith.You hunt for offense behind every word, while one wished all he was facing were some words against his faith. You spend your time arguing what it means to be a Christian, while one knows that to be Christian will mean his death. You long to suffer for your faith and enjoy a moment when someone merely points out some difference between this word and that. Yet one who has excepted the word now awaits his fate for those words.
A Christian shall be known by his works and not by his words, yet you call traitor those that oppose the killing of the innocent . All in the name of a crusade, by those that say it is their Christian right to kill the innocent. You say you support the troops for being in harms way, yet would it not be more supportive to fight to keep them from it?
You would call them unpatriotic, yet as an American we owe it to every man and woman, son and daughter, father and mother, friend and lover to insure that the cause is just and the need is justified. When it means that those precious souls will die for this country. It is hard to know, what cause is good enough to cost your son or daughter life?
But for now, if you are a Christian or simple call yourself one if you have taken the time to write some words on this page. Yet have not taken the time to go to a quiet room, kneel and face your God and pray for the life of the one who set in that cell awaiting his fate in Afghanistan. You truly know nothing of Christ teachings or what it truly means to be a Christian. And while you do, you needed to thank God that you are in a country where the worst you face for your faith is to be call a name or sited for some inconsistency between your word and your actions.
Oh fer Chrissake! Another religious cock contest. My faith is bigger than your faith, nya, nya, nya. I love the way right-wing Christians turn on their brothers if they’re not ideologicly pure, ie, right-wing. This group went to Iraq to witness for Christ. They’re anti-war? Well news flash, a lot of Christians are against the war. That doesn’t make them less Christian. Before you right-wingers start passing judgment, you need to remember who the Bible says judgement belongs to. They deserved it for being left wing Christians? That’s like saying the girl deserved to be raped because she was pretty.
As for the military having to go rescue them, that happens a lot. If you want to castigate the Peace Keepers, do it because they were dumb enough to waltz their happy @sses into a combat zone without a brigade of Marines to keep the peace.
Right-wingers, get over yourselves!
Ksfarmgrrl,
“Gee, my lutheran catechism says “thou shalt not kill”. I guess the lutherans just have it all wrong. My bad.”
Mine too. I am not saying that it doesn’t don’t kill. I am saying that if you knew anything about greek or Hebrew you might know that they use many different words for the same word in English.
Exodus 20:13 from the NASB (one of the most accurate versions word for word)
YOU SHALL NOT MURDER
The word for murder or kill in Hebrew: Ratsach.
The word appears about 40 times in the Hebrew bible. The CONTEXT of its use shows that it means the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.
“Nathan, do you read greek and hebrew? Or is that just something your pastor told you?”
I don’t read greek or Hebrew but I do have a Key Word Bible with the greek and Hebrew for many of the words. I study the CONTEXT of the Bible in our language and in the original text.
The problem you and some Christians have sometimes is taking what the Bible says in English word for word in one spot and forming a doctrine out of it.
You need to look at the Bible in it’s entirity and you would see things IN CONTEXT.
ksfarmgrrl,
I was raised as a Lutheran. Missoroui Synoid. And you?
What is their doctrinal position on killing?
That is the question, not what you qoute out of Luthers catechism.
Last I checked the Lutherans did not hold to what you are saying… I could be wrong.
ksfarmgrrl,
you can laugh and joke all you want too about the Bible and interpretaion of it.
Either way you still have no idea what you are talking about.
You do nothing more than find the simplist thing your mind can comprehend from the Bible and use it to try and Bash Christians and Christianity.
I don’t know if that makes you a liar or just a very disingenuous person.
ksfarmgrrl,
you can laugh and joke all you want too about the Bible and interpretaion of it.
Either way you still have no idea what you are talking about.
You do nothing more than find the simplist thing your mind can comprehend from the Bible and use it to try and Bash Christians and Christianity.
I don’t know if that makes you a liar or just a very disingenuous person.
The thing is, I don’t think there is anything wrong about what the minnonites do or the quakers or others who are pacifist in the true sense.
I disagree with some of their doctrines, but oh well.
They are not purposfully trying to use the scripture to bash Christians and accuse them of being hypocrites or do nothing more than denigrate Christians like you ksfarmgrrl.
Double post! Nathan is obviously a bot!
Isn’t interesting how so many American “troublemakers” end up dead in Iraq?
Like the Al Jazeera cameraman bombed to death by US aircraft on top of his own building, journalists killed by a US tank attack on the Palestine Hotel, gung-ho Bush backer Nicholas Berg who was detained for six weeks by the CIA in Iraq and then mysteriously kidnapped and killed the day he was released, Marla Ruzicka killed by a car bomb after conducting door-to-door surveys to determine the number of civilian casualties, the Italian journalist shot and almost killed by US troops on her way to the airport.
BushCo. made no protestation when Rachel Carrie was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer while protesting the destruction of Palestinan homes.
Now we get the four CPT people, who are outspokenly anti-war, kidnapped and one killed. Then the troops miraculously find and free the remaining three.
Wow! Are our guys good or what? Needles in haystacks are nuthing for our armed forces!
Another made for TV moment brought to you by the people that staged the rescue of Private Lynch and toppling of the Saddam statue.
Horst,
One big consolation that Christianity gives us believers is that you and George W. Bush will spend eternity burning in an everlasting lake of fire if you don’t repent.
BTW, do you and Ian know each other?
You seem to have a lot in common.
Horst, I’m a Christian. I don’t recall anybody ever calling me “weak and docile”, at least not to my face.
“But what do you expect for a religon founded by a gay kike”
Horst, how long did it take you to think up that little gem? Does it make you feel good to denegrate our beliefs? Do you think you’ve gained something from acting like a total @ss?
“You win the war on terrorism is won not by loving terrorist but by killin them.”
Horst, let’s for a moment overlook your butchery of the English language (your usage indicates the mental capacity of a fourth-grader).
Think you’re such a tough guy? Why aren’t you in Iraq where tough counts?
God, for your sake, I hope your real name isn’t “Horst”.
Nathan,Sorry it took so long to get back at you.
You will notice, if you read my post, I said to die for their beliefs. I never said to kill for their beliefs. The suicide bombers are mostly brainwashed, uneducated religious fanatics. I hardly put the rescued missionarys in the same boat.
Nathan, I would read what’s written, not what isn’t there. I seldom write between the lines, and you know that.
There are many posts here, some good, some very good (XXX) and some that have nothing to do with the blog (rock’s long diatribe). The worst off them all is Horst, whoever he or she may be. Sounds like an Ian or Ed clone, but without the intelligence or sense of humor of either. Where does this idiot come from? That’s pretty bad when everybody badmouths the fool.
I come down a bit on religion sometimes…….ok alot. But it is only on the nuts who think they speak for God himself. I dislike hypocrisy.
This guy Horst is just pure flat undirected unfoundedhate incarnate.
Address the damn thread and be relevant “Horst” Otherwise get a damn can of spray paint and find yourself a wall. Preferrably in your own house.
Horst,
You do realise that Hitler, Himmler, Hess and many high ranking Nazis were DEVOUT catholics, don’t you?
Christian faith was the driving force that allowed my ancestors to prevail over the moors, the reds in the civil war and provided the impetus for the conquest of the New World!
Are you, by chance an Odinist?
V.L.R.B!!
Go JR!
And, according to Ian, Christianity espouses GENOCIDE!
Thanks X
I feel bad sometimes coming down on faith the way I do. I am particularly concerned that J M go upthread to where I explained that my post that bothered him so badly was meant for the “Is this what we are fingting for ” thread.
There are people here of faith that I do respect. I hope they will forgive me if I get a bit heavy handed with the holier than thous sometimes.
BH,
They only religions that preach genocide of “goyim/infidels” are the semitic cults of judaism and islam!
V.L.R.B!!!
Ian – what do you call the extermination of the indigenous population of the “conquest of the New World”?
JR,Sorry I didn’t refer to your upthread explanation. Thanks, bro. I appreciate that you did explain, and I understand. It surprised me when I read the first because it’s not your style. But all’s well.
As for where the post belonged, I have to agree with you in that context.
Religion is the underlying cause of almost all the problems in this world.
Damoon,
People are the underlying cause of almost all the problems in the world, they use religion as an excuse.
Damoon,I have to agree with Nathan. People have been using the religious mantle since time began to get their way, or force it on people. Religion itself has nothing to do with it.
Just as in guns don’t kill people, people do, religions don’t kill people, people do. And that is a sad fact on the matter.
The older I get, and the wiser I should be getting, I wonder if man’s nature doesn’t lean towards the violant side. That’s one thought I would love to be wrong on.
Guns don’t kill people, it’s people with guns that kill people.Religion doesn’t kill people, it’s people with religion that kill people.
Imagine there’s no heaven…it isn’t hard to do…nothing to kill or die for…and no religion, too…I guess I’m just a dreamer.
but you’re not the only one! Perhaps one day they’ll join us
Hey TROLL er……..I mean Horst. I thought I told you to get a can of spray paint. What did you inhale it?
Damoon,
Are you actually naive enough to believe that without religion people wouldn’t kill each other?
LOL
. . . and the world will be as one. Don’t hold your breath.
I’ld say name Horst blogfart2, but he ain’t worth the effort.
Whatever happened to blogfart1? Did he do the manly thing and chicken out of the blog scene?
OMG, too funny to read all this.
Nathan, why am I TOTALLY not surprised you were raised as a missouri synod boy. Gee, BIG surprise there? THE most conservative of all lutheran cults.
I was raised ELCA, the LIBERAL lutheran synod. But thankfully, it didnt take. I managed to escape and recover.
How funny that nathan hasnt told me if he can read greek or hebrew. Y know he never answers questions, like others here. I am assuming not, so whatever interpretation he holds to…was given to him by someone else.
I also think it HYSTERICAL that there is an argument over “kill” vs. murder. Very bushlike of all you mindless defenders of conservative doctrine.
Let’s not talk about meaning, lets talk about semantics. HEHEHE. Sounds to me like “what is the meaning of is”.
RD, can you give us the greek translation of “is”.
Nathan – I agree 100% that “People are the underlying cause of almost all the problems in the world, they use religion as an excuse.” That said, however, religion can all too often become a great justification for horrendous crimes. Note, for example, Ian’s celebration of the genocidal “conquest of the New World” and the genocide indicated in the Book of Joshua.
ksfarmgrrl,
Did you even read my posts?
Obviously not. If you did you would see where I said I got my greek and hebrew from.
You would also see a very logical and detail explanation of murder vs. kill too.
It is sad that the only reply you can come back with is that it is HYSTERICAL…
I think it is PATHETIC that you can’t do anything more than find whatever silly thing you can to bash Christians with when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
kfg – I read Greek all the time. At least I THINK it is Greek – IRS instruction forms!
However, the various state instructions make the IRS ones seem clear!
Ben,
If it is not religion it would be something else.
Damoon overlooks all the great and wonderful things religion does.
Does she look at all the faith based charities which provide everything from food and clothing to people?
Does she look at all the faith based charities which send people over seas to help build homes, infrastructure and other basic needs for people?
Who does she think it is that go and volunteer their time for others all over the world?
It is not just Christians. People of many faiths do many things for others.
I think it is so narrow minded that all the good religion does is simply ignored because a few choose not to believe in God…
Nathan – we are not in disagreement on this. As you know; I give through faith-based charities even though I might not be of that faith. In this case I am looking at the work being done. And, you are correct in that “It is not just Christians. People of many faiths do many things for others” – thus I have ended up contributing through various faith traditions.
These peace-makers at the top of the thread are a good example of that.
kfg,My, are we having a bad hair day? You seem in a bit over-the-top mode today. Take two bottles of ripple and call me in the morning:-)
Heheh. Good point Ben about the IRS. But…
Can you understand the context of the IRS instructions…?
I agree there are wonderful people of faith in the world. They exhibit NONE of the arrogance or intolerance of the most outspoken here. They walk the talk and do it quietly, letting their actions speak for themselves.
I hate to start a list as I would be sure to leave someone out. But Ben, CF, XXX, Walker, Damoon, etc, exhibit CHARITY and compassion, not judgement and self-righteousness. (Oh yea, kssam too! see I knew I’d leave someone out!)
You all dont play the zero sum game. You dont say, “not only am I RIGHT but therefor, you must also BE WRONG!! You understand that your faith is your faith, not someone else’s and you dont need ME to believe in order for YOU to be saved, so to speak.
You dont need to be RIGHT. Your faith speaks for itself. You have room in your big hearts and big minds for an understanding of others, even if you dont accept or agree with those others.
You tolerate differences of opinion and do your own personal good works. And you all dont grandstand while you do it. I bet you pray silently when in public because for you, it ISNT about the show, it is about the go.
We frequently disagree here. But not everyone is invested in the other person being WRONG.
That is WAY different from the most strident christian posters here. Self righteousness and making other people wrong are the surest tactics to drive others away from christ.
Once again, my favorite bumper sticker “jesus, save me from your followers”.
WWJD?
Heh, walker. Not a bad hair day, just a belly full of jerks this week.
And I am getting WAY too old to fry fish and prepare the fixins for 175 people. But I did get to talk to Jerry Moran at the fish fry.
I am tired and cranky :)
Sorry Nathan, I missed your admission that you are accepting the translation of greek and hebrew by others. Even footnotes are written by other, not you.
And no matter how DETAILED your explanation is, the details dont make it right.
Horst vs. Ian!
This is like Frankenstein vs Godzilla.
Who’s the bigger racist monster?
Let the games begin . . .
You know what I am waiting for ksfargrrl?
Any attempt at an explanation from you on why you think kill means kill and not murder other than your using it to try and bash Christians…
You better pack a lunch and a jug of water nathan. It’s going to be a long wait.
kfg: Thanks for not including me in that list. XXX, CF, Ben, Damoon, and Kansassam have a lot to live up to!
You know though kfg, at the risk of making this a bit personal, I think that you are placing unrealistic expectations on everyone. It seems that your criteria for a good Christian, (although I would question your credentials to judge) is one that agrees with you on issues.
That just ain’t gonna happen for some of us who believe that you can’t pick and choose Bible passages. Some are not going to compromise principles for the sake of getting along. It is telling that the faults you ascribe could be applicable to everyone in some cases, including you.
Christians aren’t and shouldn’t claim to be perfect,although we are directed to strive to be like Christ. Some do it better than others. But we are forgiven, thank God.
And God loves you too.
ksfargrrl,
You crack me up. Are you in cheerleading mode today or what?
Oh yeah, these people are the epitomy of tolerance:
I think religion is the bane of all evil Damoon…
For Christ sake not another religion discussion XXX…
Ben is about the only one you got right on tolerance towards religion…
Ksfarmgrrl,
Once again I have proven that you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to the Bible.
Thank you for participating in the debate.
Nathan, a legend in his own mind.
There is something worse than a bad hair day – a NO hair day!
;^)
Ben:-)I look in the mirror and try to think what is actually worse, the bad hair or the no hair:-)
kfg,I feel for ya: frying fish for 175 hungry souls would make anybody short o temper.
Do we get invited to the results of your talk with Jerry, or is it, like, too personal?;-)
Damn, not being a Kansas resident, I had to look up Jerry’s record. He’s a perfect red-stater, isn’t he? So far right, he almost falls across the Missouri border. I’ll bet that was a one sided conversation. Go kfg!
Heheh walker. The result was an explosion and a grease fire! No kidding. The guys who help me man the fryers were standing around listening to Jerry and I and one of the pans overheated and burst into flames.ROFLMAO. Of course, they blamed me, the fire breathing she dragon. hehehehe.
Mostly we talked about rural development and water. Nothing new on either side. I did get in a couple of digs about the nsa wiretapping. And I got to say that since pat is bush’s senator and sam is god’s senator, I am sure glad we have Jerry representing KANSAS.
We are old friends :) he expects nothing less from me. He has frequently helped me in the past, and at the risk of embarassing him, I have helped him on a couple of political things too.
Strange bedfellows indeed, so to speak, but here is an even bigger one. BOTH Stan Clark and Ralph Ostmeyer were/are my friends. They both publicly have supported me, and no surprise here, they know all about my views on things.
Funny that I can make connections with them, but not with the rulers of wingnuttia here.
Laughing walker. If kansas continues to bleed population, his district, the BIG first, IS going to fall into Missouri. :)
He did vote against the new medicare prescription program, and he got punished by the hammer and others. He knew it was a bad deal.
Other than than, he is perfect in his red voting.
Almost forgot to post this. I was watching a show last night that reported the results of a new Pew Research poll that shows christians support torture significantly and substantially more often than athiests or agnostics.
Read the research for yourself. Long, but scroll down to find the attitudes about torture.
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=866
kfg,There is a great deal to say about communicating with people who do not share the same beliefs as you. It’s called intelligence, and judging from some of the combatants here, there might be a lack therof.
The most difficult thing to do, for many people, is to discuss instead of argue points. Heated topics usually decay into mexican standoffs, with both sides yelling nonsense at each other. Hell, we all do it here.
It usually takes just one poster, though, to slide in with a word or two about either side, done in anything but a condescending manner, to turn it around. But then again, there are those here who are so stuck with their own sense of right or wrong, that nothing can get them in a proper discussion(raises own hand . . . guilty).
I scanned through that article ksfarmgrrl.
I failed to see where any statistics were given on christians supporting torture significantly and substantially more often than athiests or agnostics.
If you could point that out for me or copy it here that would be nice.
ksfarmgrrl,
You couldn’t stick with the we are hypocrites for supporting killing so now you throw that Christians support torture statistics? (which I did not see in you link by the way)
LOL
It is so obvious that your only agenda is to Bash Christians.
Nathan, try a little harder.
When you get to the page that KFG posted, go down to the bottom of the list of links– DETAILED DEMOGRAPHIC TABLES –and click on it. Scroll through the pdf file to THE USE OF TORTURE, then look through that until you get to RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION. (Page 10, to be exact.)
White Christians are divided into evangelical and non-evangelical for further stats.White Catholics (who are also Christian) are listed separately, as are Secular.
Now add those two percentages for the White Christians and White Catholics together, since “Christians” were broken up into two groups.
Geez, what do these guys need? A road map?
RD–
Life would be so much easier for the Nathan’s on the blog if only there weren’t all these FACTS getting in the way of their beliefs.
Why would I only add the two percentages?
What facts are those Proudlib?
The statement was made that:
“christians support torture significantly and substantially more often than athiests or agnostics”
I seen the category for secular and a few different religious classifications compared and the word “significant” sure didn’t come to mind.
Besides,
My point is that some random bit of information was interjected into this thread for the sole purpose of trying to bash Christians.
My claim from the beginning has been that ksfarmgrrl does little more than do or say whatever she can to make Christians look bad. Which is what she is still doing.
Nathan, KFG doesn’t need to try to make Christians look bad. Christians manage to do that well on their own. Not all, but it doesn’t take a majority to make the whole appear a certain way.
Let’s say you bit into an apple and find that it’s rotten. Are you really going to take the time to get a knife and slice it up to see just how much of that apple is rotten? Maybe, but I doubt it.
While it’s true that (as Michael Jackson sang) one bad apple don’t spoil the whole group, it sure can give the appearance of it.
As far as I care, Nathan, you can multiply those percentages.
In defense of Nathan, I think he is correct on the question of Christian vs. secular support of torture. I do not see an overwhelming, or really even much of a noticable difference. I am at work and will be until Monday. When I get home I will get out my statistical software and we will obtain some raw numbers from the available data and compute a Chi-Sqare statistic. I think the result will be a non-significant statistical difference, i.e. the proportions/differences are not greater than what would be expected by chance.
Will post the results I obtain.
Chi-Square – man I hate it when I do that.
We’ll need categorical variables that are mutually exclusive and exhaustive — which can be reasonably obtained. It is possible we will be off due to rounding error – but that should not matter too much.
Excuse me while I engage in my autisms.
DD, I am not a statistician nor do I play one on tv. I saw this discussed on news shows yesterday and dug up the original research to post since of course, no one here would believe MY analysis.
This was the anyalysis of the research that I read:
“According to this Pew poll, Americans favor torturing detainees in some circumstances by a wide margin. There’s a reason John Kerry didn’t bring it up in the debates. And there’s a reason Cheney and Rumsfeld know they can continue the practice: they have widespread public support.
Most disturbing to me are the high numbers of self-decribed Christians favoring torture: only 26 percent of Catholics oppose it in all circumstances, while only 31 percent of white Protestants rule it out entirely.
If you combine those Christians who think torture is either never or only rarely acceptable, you have 42 percent of Catholics and 49 percent of white Protestants.
The comparable statistic of those who are decribed as “secular,” which I presume means agnostic or atheist, is 57 percent opposition.
In other words, if you are an American Christian, you are more likely to support torture than if you are an atheist or agnostic.”
Is that a valid but simple analysis? I posted the link to the research so everyone could decide for themselves. But DD, I totally trust you if you dont think this is valid.
I am laughing because nathan did actually “see” the word significant.
I guess the term significant is in the eye of the beholder, but I think it is not an “insignificant” difference. It isnt the non-believers who are the big meanies on torture.
Nathan did not see the word. Sorry.
I found this interesting too.
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006a/032406/032406h.htm
No, I couldn’t care less about the topic ksfarmgrrl.
What I am pointing out is that you threw it in here for the sole purpose of once again trying to bash Christians.
Your lousy argument trying to say the Bible says not to kill failed and so you went to round 2…
Ksfarmgrrl,
Torture is a relative term in itself anyhow.
I don’t think what we are doing right now is torture where as people like you and the left are out saying it is so you can continue on your campaign of hate Bush.
When these people were asked if they support torture I wonder what they were thinking torture was when they gave their answers.
Because mine would be 100% in favor of what we are currently doing whether you want to call it torture or not…
Nathan we had a chance to meet and you seem a nice guy.
But I gotta observe here that you just never say much in any post on any thread.Here especially you make one short statement about how us leftists bash Christianity and then you just repeat it again and again, Your only recent departure from that was to you YOURSELF attack fellow Christians……much as you attacked the “peaceniks” ….just because they are in the case of X, Damoon, C F etc. to not be extreme enough in their faith or in the case of the peaceniks because THEIR faith is TOO extreme and gets in the way of your idea of foreign policy.
It starts to look like you’ve got a pretty wide idea of who is against you and a pretty narrow one of folk that you see as “right” enough.
Did you notice Nathan how I handled a REAL instance of hate toward Christians upthread? Have I or KFG or RD or X or Damoon or many of others ever been that extreme or condoned it in anyone?
Try looking a little harder for the value in post or a person and not so hard for how they are against you or your faith.
PL, could you e-mail me? I have some questions that I would rather not share with everyone who can lurk (hint).
Ian, whatever conclusions you may have reached on the current trolldom, feel free to share–likewise in private.
The cat’s awake and watching, Mr. Mouse, but that doesn’t mean we have to tell you everything.
KFG:”In other words, if you are an American Christian, you are more likely to support torture than if you are an atheist or agnostic.
“Is that a valid but simple analysis? I posted the link to the research so everyone could decide for themselves. But DD, I totally trust you if you dont think this is valid.”
KFG – this is a valid analysis. What got me hung up is the term “significant” – in statistics this means greater than chance difference – greater than 50/50. Just eyeballing the numbers, I am wondering if that effect size (a statistically significant difference) will be there. “Significant” was actually an unfortunate choice by the old statisticians who came up with these tests — mainly a guy named Fisher – who called his applied academic opponents “communists”. This was in the 1920s – things have changed so little, huh?
I play as a statistician, but not on TV.
I found a computational formula for Chi-square – it is pretty simple. If I get time I may do this the old fashion way.
The irony of the whole situation in the middle east is this:
1) Americans think that killing the terrorists is ok because in the common American / Western European mind:
TERRORIST / MUSLIM EXTREMIST / ISLAMO-FASCTISTS = EVIL
2) Radical Islamists think that killing America and the West (a.k.a. the Great Satan) is ok because in the radical jihaddist mind:
AMERICANS / EUROPEANS / “GREAT SATANISTS” = EVIL
My point being that everyone who takes up arms against another thinks of himself as the “good guy” and his opponent is the “bad guy.” So Cal Thomas doesn’t know what the hell he’s talkin about.
Yours Truly,BLOGFART1
However, if one really believes that war is always unjustifiable, then wouldn’t one be forced to admit that the American Revolution was unjustified? What about the Scotts rebellion against England a la “Braveheart?” This certainly creates an interesting dilemma…
Hey, blogfart1 the bloviated speaks, and makes some sense. Welcome back to the land of common sense (Cal Thomas).
Problem is, this war IS wrong. From day one it has been wrong. To this day it is still wrong. When Bush leaves office, and the war is still going on, it will still be wrong. It really pisses me off that our men and women are dying in a war we shouldn’t be in. To campare it to the American Revolution is disengenuous to say the least, and like comparing apples and oranges.
JM,Au contraire. I believe that in the mind of the English soldier, the American Revolution which was a violent war wasn’t it? He would have thought (much like in Cornwallis’s memoirs) that the colonists rebellion was wrong, immoral, evil; and that the “Patriots” were nothing more than a bunch of outlaws, traitors to the Crown, men of no allegiance, and therefore EVIL. Of course we all know what the colonists thought of England and King George. Therefore:
Patriots think English are tyrants = EVIL
English think Patriots are traitors = EVIL
The only difference between the factions in a war JM, is little more than point-of-view.
Salaam el Sharif!BLOGFART1 =)
BGF1The British thought they ruled this continent: We were stupid enough to equate Sadaam with Al Quida. The British were taxing this country with no representation: We are stupid enough to believe we will get lower oil prices out of this war.
There is no comparison. But I would expect nothing else from your “logical” mind.
JM,Please do not include myself in when you use the word “we.” If YOU were stupid enough to believe that democracy can be forced upon a people than that was YOUR mistake… not mine.
BLOGFART1=)
DD, I am sorry that I didnt know the word “significant” meant something special. The difference is significant for me, but I did not mean to imply it was significant in some statistical sense.
Now you know why I deal in words, not numbers.
I still think it is astounding that self described christians are more tolerant of torture than agnostics and athiests.
And nathan wants to debate the meaning of kill? Why? So he can go on to debate the meaning of murder? And now he wants to debate the meaning of the word torture?
What is the meaning of is? He sounds more clinton like every day :) When you cant deny the facts, you can always quibble about the meaning of words.
Clinton did it!
KFG,It does seem like Nathan’s first line of defense/attack is to try to sow confusion about the terms in play. It is a reasonable stalling tactic, but I have not seem him use it successfully (in terms of prevailing in an argument), though he seems to think otherwise.
I guess if Nathan can think that he is winning arguments, thinking that there is progress in Iraq – or any other Bush distortion of the day -would not be too difficult to swallow.
That being said, I still think Nathan is a nice kid and likely means well.
I dont think what I am about to say here is significant :)
If nathan wants to know why I take EVERY opportunity to poke fun at religion in general and christians in particular, I dont mind telling why.
For some reason, toxic christians seem to think they hold the moral high ground on every issue. Even issues that are not issues. Their narcissism and self centered conviction that THEY ALONE know what is right and good for the rest of us leads them directly down the path of the tyranny of the majority.
But when you look closely, their words dont match their theology, their actions dont match their words. They demand freedom and autonomy in THEIR religious beliefs, but they cant allow anyone else the same courtesy.
Nope. These christians think they ALWAYS know best, for EVERYONE. They take on the mantle of god and then think THEY are NEVER wrong about anything. They act as if NO ONE else deserves protection from the tyranny of the majority.
Does that make christians horrible? No. It makes them human. It puts them on the same level with the rest of us. And that is the point. They are no worse and no better than the rest of us humans. That fact alone gives them no divine right to dominate the rest of us. We are just as perfect and imperfect as they are. We are all created equal…or so I thought.
My unscientific observation is that most christians just THINK they are better and god speaks to them directly about how they should rule the rest of us. Their actions dont match up, just like the imperfections of athiests.
They just THINK their religion should be turned into law. They just THINK that because they are the majority, it gives them some divine right to force the rest of us to submit.
When I say “good” christians, I dont mean which ones god is gonna smile on and which one god is gonna frown upon. I mean good in the sense that they have their self importance in check. They understand where their right to religions stops and where my freedom from religion stops. Some of you have no clue where that line lies.
And outlander, you ALL pick and choose passages. To say that you dont is to just ignore the truth. You may say you swallow it whole, but you seem to always have an excuse for why they ignore some passages. The “reasons” for obeying some and not others just illustrate that you are not perfect. But then…neither are we.
Outlander, it isnt a matter of who agrees with me. It is a matter of who tries to dominate each other. How many times do I have to say I dont care what you believe, I dont care what you do inside your churches.
I do care VERY much about not being forced to live by your theology as the law of the land.
Of course then the arguement starts up about moral compass, and how if some of us dont believe in god, well, we couldnt possibly have ANY moral compass. See false bifurcation.
Ya know, many of us athiests lead great lives. I have never been arrested or even questioned by the police. Everything I own is paid for and I dont carry any credit card debt. I volunteer and give to charities. My life is boringly normal and free of trouble…until some christian gets involved. Then the whole domination dance begins.
I certainly know what is right and wrong, but I dont have to consult any diety to find out. The golden rule works just fine. Trying to help and not hurt, whether it is the environment or animals or humans, works just fine as a moral compass. Love and compassion work just fine.
It seems to me that you all make the incorrect claim of being infallable, so therefor, the rest of us can go straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200. And yes, go figure, that pisses me off.
As long as you remain imperfect humans, as long as you claim the moral high ground, and you claim the right to make your religion the law of the land, I am going to point out every inconsistancy, every hypocricy, every instance of you doing the opposite of what YOU claim christianity is all about.
Of course, you will never be confused by the facts, and no one will ever change your minds about anything. Religious ferver is like that. You cant tell the muslims OR the chritians anything. They already know it all, and besides that THEY ARE RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG! It seems nothing but the end of the world will change that conflict.
And there you have the reason why some of us believe religion is actually the root of all evil in the world.
If you took away the disputes that are purely religious in nature, if you took away the desire of one religion to dominate another, if you took away the idea that some of us are better than others and that athiests are no more immoral than christians….what would you have?
No wars? No religious strife? No religious rivalries or religious killings? (Or murder if you are nathan!)
Maybe, maybe not. I think it would be worth a try. I see how well it has worked with religion dominating all aspects of life.
Could freedom FROM religion cause any MORE damage?
KFG,Well said.
Thanks for taking the trouble to say it.
DD, I also think nathan is a good kid who means well. I have said that before, and also said one of the reasons I am hard on him is that I think he has potential.
He has the potential to be a great leader and a shining example. Or he has the potential to be a religious nut case along the lines of fred and terry and joe.
I dont want to give up on him without trying to point out something he may not know or may not have thought. Believe it or not, I am actually standing for his greatness in asking him to consider other people and their beliefs.
I fear, however, that he is already lost to the land of wingnuttia. If I didnt care about him, I wouldnt bother.
DD, thanks for giving me the room to say it. I hope you know that the “yous” in that post were generic yous and not directed at you, DD. I hope “you” know you are one of my favorites.
I am reminded of the old John Lennon song, kfg. Imagine there’s no heaven…
All I can say is that you are wrong. I am sorry that you have hardened your heart.We discuss things on the blog that we don’t and probably wouldn’t talk about with our closest friends. So there are bound to be divisions and even some hard feelings when you get into deeply held beliefs. I have no magic solution, so you?
The problem with the new style charismatics is that they feel free to discount or ignore any opinion that isn’t framed within *their version* of Christianity.
Aside from the arrogance, the biggest roadblock to fruitful discussion with many of them is that they really, truly, honestly believe they are being totally objective in their view – given that *their version* of Christianity defines the context of the debate.
In other words, many of them can’t be persuaded of anything (evolution, foreign and domestic policies, economics, meterology, origins and size of the universe, etc.) if the discussion is going to be taken outside of Christianity (hence Nathan’s and others first question is often something like “what do you believe” or “tell me about your conversion to Christ” or “do you accept Christ as your lord and savior,” etc.).
And if you agree to hold the discussion within their p.o.v. then you’ll find that even they can’t agree what the p.o.v. should be. So the versions are always slightly different, depending on the church, but their utterly sincere belief that they’re being objective _never_ seems to vary.
I think this is both a problem with and a strength of Christianity, this black/white earnest “objectivity” built on shifting sands.
It’s a strength because it allows charismatics to bring every question back to “do you accept Christ as your lord and savior”, and I do mean everything, while being happy doing so, happy in savoring their faith.
It’s a weakness because it’s not objective, and it cannot always be acted upon, but this savoring of their faith by charismatics, their happiness, demands action. To not act upon their faith reduces its promise of utiility and dilutes the experience, makes it unsatisfactory. For some, lots of bad outcomes can be justified because armageddon’s just around the corner anyway.
I guess the bottom-line problem I have with charismatics is their inability to see how the black/white criterion of their faith is utterly insufficient when applied as a decision rule in many real world problems.
Boy, there are some good posts on this thread today. Excellent post, flike.
I usually try to not engage charismatic posters in debates/discussions about religion, God, etc.My definition of faith involves accepting something as the truth without having evidence. Hence, I don’t see how you can debate this area. When a poster expands everything to being a matter of faith – that’s a clue to me that debating/discussing things is not going to be very fruitful. You can listen to what such a poster says. I try to respect it. But, I try to recongnize that such a poster is going approach subjects that could be guided by logic, in a much different way.
I try to not get emotional about it. Sometimes I succeed.
Great posts flike, DD as always.
DD
“I usually try to not engage charismatic posters in debates/discussions about religion, God, etc.”
Mostly that means not speaking to them at all then, because EVERY conversation begins and end with god, as flike illustrates.
I would love to have that luxury of just ignoring them. Sadly, I cant. They are not limiting your equal protection, your family, your marriage, your life in the way they are mine. It makes it difficult not to be emotional when all the arguments used against you are also emotional. Count on religion to do that.
One of my buddies who reads this blog was really disgusted Friday. He is leaving ks soon, and reminded me that trying to reason with jesus freaks is like dipping out of the ocean with a teaspoon. Too much baloney to ever make a dent. He says I shouldnt even try. Never teach a pig to sing, ya know?
I agree. But just because it is an endlessly frustrating task doesnt mean it shouldnt be done. I told him I do it for two reasons.
One is that there are lots of people who generally agree with me. A majority? Of course not. But more than one or two certainly. When you are chafing under the theocracy, it is good to know there are others who feel the same way.
I hope to encourage others to question. The jesus freaks hate that. Questioning causes them no end of fits, as flike said.
Second, by not responding, their lies and half truths stand unchallenged.
My friend said so what? There are thousands of blogs, and you cant stomp out the lies on every one. True, but the longest journey begins with a single step. And you eat an elephant (no pun intended) one bite at a time.
If the theocracy isnt challenged now, then when? If the lies are not illuminated now, then when? And if I dont do it…? I dont see too many others stepping into the fray here. All you have to do is read and you will know why.
I dont feel like I have any other choice. I also have little to lose in this or any forum. Self employed, no family, no longer any party affiliation, etc. Not everyone can speak as freely. I think that makes it my responibility to speak the generally unspeakable. I am prepared for the consequenses. I dont usually whine about how I am treated here. It comes with the territory of speaking opposition to the majority.
Is this the appropriate forum? Probably not, but I dont know what is. You wouldnt likely catch us in the same places at the same time. Once again, if not me then who? If not now, then when? If not here, then where?
“My definition of faith involves accepting something as the truth without having evidence. Hence, I don’t see how you can debate this area.”
Agreed DD. But if it is so etherial cant even be debated, how can we justify using it to make secular law?
I will not go quietly into that good night of absolute theocracy. They may make me go, but I’ll be damned if I go with a whimper. Funny how resolution is interpreted as a hard heart.
They say armageddon is around the corner.
I say let the revolution begin :)
I don’t know how I could say anthything or better than we see here this morning.
“All I can say is that you are wrong”
Outlander, I love you man.
After all I said about christians making everyone else wrong…
…thanks for making my point better than I could ever hope to do here!
kfg: You are just too misguided for words to describe.
Your first reaction no matter the subject, when you disagree with one you know to be a Christian is that it their view is invalid because they are well.. Christian. And, (horrors) they might have been influenced by the Bible. I get weary of you making every disagreement a referendum on Christianity. Use your imagination, please!
Since this argument has deteriorated into schoolyard recess level, I recall what my third grade teacher said, “when you point your finger at someone else, three fingers are pointed at you”. Take that for whatever it’s worth.
Perhaps KFG should learn that age old Christian adage that goes something like, “thou shalt not judge?”
Outlander:”I get weary of you making every disagreement a referendum on Christianity. Use your imagination, please!
“Since this argument has deteriorated into schoolyard recess level, I recall what my third grade teacher said, ‘when you point your finger at someone else, three fingers are pointed at you’. Take that for whatever it’s worth.”
Outlander, the above makes me wonder if you need to remember your 3rd grade teacher’s lesson? Again, I think that your comments confirm KFG’s points.
KFG,You are right, I don’t think I have suffered nearly as much from religious bigotry as you have. Wouldn’t one of these wrongs be righted if there was a legal challenge to the hate ammendent? I thought by now there would be such a challenge from the ACLU – if not in Kansas somewhere that would set precedent for Kansas’s law. This will be handled in courts, which of course will lead many people to have fits about judicial acitivism.
I worked the polls on day of the election when the hate ammendment passed. I was amazed at how many people would ask: “this will protect my marriage, forever, right?” They, at the election HQ, discourage workers from politicing, as you can imagine. So, I usually replied “it will be the law unless it is successfully challenged in court.” Where are those challenges? Do you have any news on that front?
Very well said, KFG. All of it.
DD, I dont know the status of any challenges. I know some guys in Lawrence were planning once, but I kinda dont run in those circles anymore, so I’d have to do some checking.
I do know that nationally, states are working together on challenges. We have extremely scares resources, and it takes time for these things to wind their way through the courts. We are trying to pick our battles.
And Pedro can only do so much…heheh. He stays busy in ks.
If you are asking about my case, it is a first amendment issue and a consequent defamation issue, not a discrimination issue.
I’ll keep you posted. I would have to google the hate amendment challenges.
“this will protect my marriage, forever, right?”
You know KFG, you could agree to remain unmarried as a service to straights who are and you could do this for a small monthly fee. You could start taking subscriptions and then fund your legal challenges from the revenue.
I was amazed at how many seemingly non-mentally retarded people seemed to think that gay people not getting married was going to benefit them (protect their marriage) in some way. Truly amazing.
KFG,I don’t think I have ever heard you talk about the defamation case before. I recall you saying that you were terminated for crazy reasons. If you would be willing sometime, I would like to hear it. Email me back channel. The address below is live.
KFG,
I am not nor was I ever debating what the word kill means. Are you always this disingenuous with your discussions? Do you find joy in having to lie to make your arguments work?
You make the claim that the Bible says do not kill. I show you that the actual interpretation is murder. I even explain to you that Greek and Hebrew use many words where English only uses one. If you study the context of the word and how it is used throughout the Bible you would see that it’s English equivalent is more close to murder than kill.
If you studied the CONTEXT of the Bible at all you would even see that killing was condoned in many contexts.
Yet you do what you do best and that is find whatever verse you can and twist it to suit your purpose of bashing Christians.
You can call it standing up to the theocracy or challenging the lies all you want to. I call it yet another weak attempt of yours to manipulate the text of the Bible to do little more than support your cause of bashing Christians.
I am not even close to being an expert on the Bible. I am not very well studied on the Bible compared to many theologians. However, I do try to take the time to actually understand things in the Bible instead of just spouting off whichever verse suits my fancy at the moment regardless of what it really means.
Perhaps it is as a living victim of religious ideology that makes KFG so very eloquent upthread to speak to it.
I could not say any thing better than she, or Darwin, or Flike have.
I would like to address Outlander.
You can never be wrong Outlander. God said it, you believe it, and that is the end of it.
I don’t want this taken the wrong way. I would never stand in the way of anyone’s right to speak.
That said, why do you come here Outlander?? And I am not just picking on you. You are probably just the best spoken of the “fundie” crowd. But why do you and they come here to a debate forum? All matters are pretty much set for you in your faith. Who are we to present arguements when god himself has already decided for you? Why would you even bother with us?
Do you come here to tell us how wrong we are and how right you are? I can go along with that I guess. Part of your Christian duty to bare witness. But shouldn’t that be enough? Just to share your message and move along? Why the advocacy here and at large for laws of man to enforce your take on god?
It has been said that polite company should not discuss religion or politics. Folks like you Outlander make religion and politics one. And that makes polite discourse with you well nigh unto impossible.Live and let live—–
JR,
If you notice, most of the time any of us ever talk about our faith and Christianity is after people on this blog say something untrue about it.
I don’t recall Outlander or myself ever advocating for laws of man to enforce your take on god.
Can you please show me where anybody on this thread has advocated for that?
I don’t think you can because we don’t do that here nor do I do it elsewhere.
Nathan your own father Hank was one of the very first to post as to this thread. His take was that some Christians were misguided. Seems their faith interefered with his ideas as to foreign policy.
And you do have me here Nathan. I give you credit. On this PARTICULAR thread legislation of morality is mentioned only by us “christian bashers”
But I think it was you yourself Nathan that cried “Chrisitian bashing” and thus re directed the flow of the thread.
But there are other threads.
Outlander has actively advocated for outlawing all abortion. He is of course free to discount that. Rockl and Don Murphy have advocated maintaining gay marriage as illegal.
Is that enough evidence that some want to use their take on god to make laws for men? If not I am sure they will continue to provide further examples.
Oh but we are off topic. And it was you who drew the thread off topic.
How about your newest take on the Christian “peaceniks” Nathan? Are they soldiers for your god? Or are they just in the way of soldiers for policies you prefer?
JR,
You seem to be confused. I am not saying Christians are perfect. They are not. No one is.
I am only saying that the crap KFG is saying is just that… crap.
If you or anyone else says something about Christianity or the Bible or other Christians which is not true and nothing more than another attempt to bash Christians I will respond regardless of going “off topic” or not.
JR,
Abortion has little to do with my faith in Christ.
I just don’t see how anyone with even an ounce of common sense can say that aborting a baby is not killing another human being.
As far as homosexuals getting married I argue that from a secular point too.
JR, too often you and others simply assume that any opinion a Christian has is invalid becuase we are Christian and believe in God…
I hate to break it to you, but I can argue all these topics without ever having to say it is because the Bible says this or God says that.
Nathan:
“I don’t recall Outlander or myself ever advocating for laws of man to enforce your take on god.”
Of course you advocate the passage of the hate amendment. You are INSANE if you dont think you or outlander have not done the above. There isnt enough bandwidth to POST all the times you all have done that.
Denying the obvious in black and white is what destroys your credibility boys. Wail all you want, we read. We know what you say. Like these quotes of Nathan:
“Did you even read my posts?
Obviously not. If you did you would see where I said I got my greek and hebrew from.
You would also see a very logical and detail explanation of murder vs. kill too.”and this:
“Any attempt at an explanation from you on why you think kill means kill and not murder”
And he follows those posts with this: “I am not nor was I ever debating what the word kill means.”
You cant deny it once it is on the screen. It is your complete willingness to disregard the truth, even about your OWN posts that makes your positions so laughable.
Of course, facts are criticism and you are always right. Everyone else is always wrong and just too stupid to see it your way.
Nathan, did you ever think maybe some of us prefer the truth to outright denial of the facts? That kind of denial is the ONLY way you could possibly swallow whole the lies other people feed you. And then you turn around and generate some of your own.
Very christian of you.
So lets hear those secular arguments nathan. Or do you want me to post links to your religious arguements?
Deny ’till you die, it doesnt change the truth.
Nathan
I once…..just once called a Christian posters opinions invalid.
I immediately retracted that.
I DO maintain that folks such as you and other Christian posters
By the way we wouldn’t know your faith persuasion if you didn’t so eagerly share it….
are not disposed to have anything resembling an open inquiring mind.You don’t have opinions. You have dogma.
But I am happy to see you at least TRY to deny it.
So since you say that your arguements against gay marriage and abortion are not faith based, I guess that instead of advocating for the rules of your god you are instead advocating for the laws according to Nathan.
JR,
” I guess that instead of advocating for the rules of your god you are instead advocating for the laws according to Nathan.”
And what is it that you are doing JR?
KFG,
I see your typical strawman tactics are in full use!
My discussion on what the Bible actually says verses your intentional deceitful use of it has nothing to do with making laws and everything to do with my showing what a complete idiot you are when it comes to bashing Christians.
I am not saying that my faith doesn’t play a role in my stance on issues.
I said that I can debate the issues mentioned, Homosexual marriage and abortion, without using my faith.
I find it besides the point anyhow.
No matter how much you hate Christians or Christianity you can’t stop us from voting with our values and morals.
It is a Representative Republic we live in. My opinions are not worthless just because I have faith and you do not.
KFG,
Here is the truth of the matter. You CHOOSE to be a homosexual. For whatever reason, based on your life experiences or whatnot, you made the choice.
The Constitution affords no protection of “equality” to people who choose to be homosexual.
You have no “right” to marriage.
Untill a majority think otherwise or science proves otherwise or the Supreme Court rules otherwise or you go to a state that has legalized it, you are not getting married.
I don’t support or condone your “right” to get married as a homosexual anymore than I support the “right” of poligamy or incestual marriages either.
I will go so far as to add in I don’t think people have the “right” to marry their dog either.
I don’t think adults have the “right” to marry minors either.
JR: I don’t make a practice of bringing up God or religious bases in arguing secular matters. As Nathan points out, it comes up when we are forced into defending Christianity when it is attacked or we are attacked only because our faith is known. That seems to happen an awful lot more than I would like.
“Outlander has actively advocated for outlawing all abortion.”
You are also mistaken in stating that I have advocated eliminating all abortions. My exceptions are in a recent thread, if you care to look.
So, lets see if you can do it JR.Don’t mention religion in your arguments. Let’s see how much it comes up.
I will make a proposal.
I won’t interject Christianity into a topic untill someone else says something I think is false about Christianity.
Unless the topic itself is about Christians or Christianity.
Lets see who lasts longer.
I have my money of KFG being the first to attack Christianity yet again.
Untill a majority think otherwise or science proves otherwise or the Supreme Court rules otherwise or you go to a state that has legalized it, you are not getting married.
TRUTH IS NOT ARRIVED AT BY A MAJORITY VOTE.-Pope Benedict XVI
Nathan’s own words:
“Just because people vote for something doesnt make it right”
I’ll just let my posts and your posts stand alone. No other comment is necessary for thinking people.
Amen that farmgrrl. No sense arguing with dogma.
You mean no other comment is needed for those that think exactly like you do and agree with everything you say?
Blogfartcrux is on their side. He oughtta be their poster boy!
I notice a distinct silence concerning Nathan’s proposal, or my challenge to JR.
Have you folks decided you can’t get along without bashing Christians as your primary argument?
Team Bush hates the CPT and everything they stand for.
“Insurgents” take four of them hostage and kill the American.
Then for the first time in three years, the remaining hostages are “rescued” without a ransom paid.
Just amazing, isn’t it!
Thank God for our brave soldiers, sniff, sniff . . .
Now who benefits the most from this?
The insurgents? Not really.
CPT? Nope, they won’t be going back soon.
TeamBush? Oh hell yes. They get a PR coup at a time when support for the war is going down, down, down, and they send the dual message that “terrorists want to kill Americans so you NEED us” and “CPT are hopeless idealists and if weren’t for our big guns they’d all be dead.”
Looks like a win-win for BushCo.
HEHEH Funny what a little stroll through the archives will turn up regarding nathans posts. Too funny.
“The problem is that there is no such thing as Conservative and Moderate Christians.
There are those Christians who follow Gods word and those who do not.”
Posted by: Nathan | June 20, 2005 at 12:18 PM
Howling now. I cant imagine why anyone would be interested, but you can get the gospel according to nathan here:
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2005/06/calling_all_mod_1.html#comments
His arguments havent changed since the beginning of the blog!
I had no idea Nathan had been with us so long. His posts I guess just aren’t memorable.
Gotta go read that link. Nice to know that he is at least consistent foolishly.
Didn’t someone once say something about foolish consistency?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2005/07/has_phelps_shoc_1.html#comments
Here you can find nathan’s “secular” arguments about gays and gay marriage.
I am rolling on the floor laughing because his first post is about phelps not being a real christian, and his second post is a LONG list of bible verses for Damoon to contemplate.
ROFLMQAO. Nathan, you should really be careful about letting your alligator mouth overload your tadpole brain.
Outlander, when I have more time for research, you are next.
KFG,
I stand by everything I have said.Big surprise that my arguments are the same.
Are you trying to prove something by posting my past comments?
Where did I say Phelps was not a real Christian KFG?
Next at what KFG?
Should I bring up all the times you have done nothing but bash Christianity?
You are not proving anything here or have yet to say what it is you are trying to prove.
Proudlib,
Do you use the name brand tin foil for your hat or do you buy the cheap stuff?
KFG: I notice still no response for you or JR on Nathan’s proposal or my challenge. If you decide not to take it up, I do not want to hear any more whining about injecting religion into politics. And everyone will know where it all really comes from.
I dont negotiate with christians
It was not a negotiation.
Nathan, are you too dense to see that what you say and what you SAY YOU SAY are two different things?
I am gonna be charitable here and say that you are mistaken about how you do not judge other chrisitans, and how you make secular (ROFLMAO) arguements about homosexuality.
But a less charitable person might use the lie word. But if you dont think that bush is lying, why would you recognize your own.
Websters:lie, an untrue statement made deliberately 1. to tell a lie 2. to give a false impression.
In any case, foolish is the mildest term available.
Ya want more examples? ROFLMAO
Show me the statements you think are in contradiction to each other KFG.
How about that?
It aint all Christians KFG. These two are just bad examples of their faith.
Out? I will attack NOT religion but your sad narrow take on it. And I will do so ruthlessly and until you keep your own narrow ideas within the confines of your church, or that little space between your ears.
Nathan manages to say pretty much the same stuff as back last June. He just does it with fewer words. Good when you can unfluff the fluff.
Go look at that link. I’ve lost a little of my edge since then. But as Nathan I stand by everything said back then.
That thread ends with Nathan and I. I don’t call names like that anymore. I don’t need to. I prefer to let people define themselves. It is sad that Nathan still fits the words I used.
Nathan, read what I have posted today, if you see no conflicting statements, I think that says it all.
As for you and your opinion of fred and others, from the same thread:
“Damoon,
All those example you gave are of “Christians” not doing the Christian thing.”
Nathan, the first rule of holes is that when you find yourself in one, you should stop digging.
Laughing, laughing, laughing.
JR, I agree it is not all christians and said so above. But nathan is just so easy to discredit. The more he protests, the more foolish he looks.
KFG,
Would this be an example of two statements in conflict from JR:
“I don’t call names like that anymore. I don’t need to. I prefer to let people define themselves.”
“It is sad that Nathan still fits the words I used.”
KFG,
You can’t show me the statments in conflict?
I think you should look at your websters definition of lie again seeing as you are domstrating it.
By the way you lose your truce bet Nathan. KFG used a link with your words. You responded as to “Christianity”
heheh. Nawwww, nathan NEVER wants to redefine the terms:
“Torture is a relative term in itself anyhow.”
Nathan, what IS the meaning of the word is?
JR: When you start insulting, you have lost the argument. You have no further substance to show and you’ve hit dead end.
Still waiting to see if you will forgoe injecting religion into secular arguments.
No conflict there at all Nathan.
Look up the dictionary definition of torture KFG.
What does it say?
It says extreme mental or unbearable physcial duress.
What is that? Is there a set amount of that for everyone or is is RELATIVE to the indidividual?
Nathan: “I am not nor was I ever debating what the word kill means.”
I posted where you did exactly that several times.
“I don’t recall Outlander or myself ever advocating for laws of man to enforce your take on god.
Can you please show me where anybody on this thread has advocated for that?
I don’t think you can because we don’t do that here nor do I do it elsewhere.”
Re-read the link on gay marriage. Count how many times you did exactly say laws need to reflect the bible.
“Where did I say Phelps was not a real Christian KFG?”
here nathan: re-read the link. You said
“”Damoon,
All those example you gave are of “Christians” not doing the Christian thing.”
I think we need tara to draw you another picture.
Anyone wanna bet he STILL denies and starts to argue the LITERAL meaning of what he said?
JR,
What is the difference in calling me the names and simply saying I am still those names you once called me?
Give me a break.
Laughing too hard to type. HE STILL WANTS TO ARGUE THE MEANING OF TORTURE!
I’m gonna do a catch and release here nathan. You are off the hook. When it comes to using examples of your contradictory words, one’s too many and a hundred isnt enough.
KFG,
I am debating what the hebrew word means which means murder.
I count zero times where I said laws should reflect what the Bible says. Show me where I said that without your intentional deceitful paraphrasing.
I said that Phelps is not doing what a Christian should do, I did not say he was not a real Christian.
There are many people who have faith in Christ and struggle with following his commands. It doesn’t make them not real Christians it makes them the sinful humans they are.
So you have to lie and purposfully distort the things I say to make your point…whatever it is?
Torture is reading you and outlander.
KFG,
Without your intentional paraphrsing to manipulate what I say into your own words to bash me you can’t show any contradictory statements.
Cant you almost hear the plaintive whine in his voice?
Nathan, anyone reading the links will draw their own conclusions. They dont need my interpretations.
Just keep digging boy.
Back to the personal insults now.
KFG,
You are a sad person. I feel sorry for you that you can do little more than make up things and lie to bash Christians because the Bible says the act of Homosexuality is an sbomination and that you who do not have faith in Christ will not have eternal life.
I will pray for you.
Nathan: I think that this thread say a lot. Our friends KFG and JR will not agree to eliminate religious references from secular arguments. KFG will “not negotiate with christians”. They have resorted to insults and name calling.
I don’t know see any reason to stay around any longer.
buh-bye
I dont negotiate with terrorists either
That is more than alright with me Out. I cannot imagine that your mind is open enough to bother engaging you further.
I do want you to try and be well adjusted citizens. So you need to wrap yourselves around a few ideas and get used to them.
Prayer is never going back in the schools. Not even in Kansas.
Abortion is not ever going away. You may make it dangerous and unsafe and illegal but it is never going away.
America is not going back to the 1950’s. Enjoy reruns of Donna Reed, Father knows Best, and Leave it to Beaver. That is as close you will get.
Stem cell research is going to happen.
Right to die is going to happen.
Sex is going to happenGay marriage is going to happen. (by the time it does it will probably be about the ONLY marriage happening)
Winter break is going to happen.
Patriarchal (male dominated) society is on its way into the history books.
And last but far from finally, you precious boy president is gonna get impeached. OR, were you too busy typing here to know that there is now definitive proof that your christian president lied us into the war that is the subject of this thread.
JR,Isn’t it interesting how, after three years, more and more truths about Bush’s lies keep popping up. His determination to go to war with Iraq, regardless of whether he got backing or not, whether or not WMD’s were found, shows that he had no intention to follow anything but a war plan. His story about bad intelligence was evidently in reference to his own:http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/27/europe/wev.0327memo.php
Blogfartcrux is on their side. He oughtta be their poster boy!
JR,and that megalomaniac Hegel would definitely be on your side.
nuff said.
Gay marriage is going to happen. (by the time it does it will probably be about the ONLY marriage happening)
JR,Only in your demented little world would gay marriage be the only marriage. Where will children be raised then hm? Probably by the uber-Liberal state. It’s good to hear you are anti-marriage, but I hate to be the one to tell you that the first gay couple that got “married” were divorced after two months. So much for your ideal little world. ;)
Sighhhhhh
Everybody knows Hegel was you Crusaderblogfart.
Me against marriage? Hardly. I just note that the institution of marriage is being destoyed by forces other than “the wrong people” seeking marriage. MOST of those forces are the fault of a society that places work, money, “success” and power, over family.
JR, you’ve given me a lot of things to live for, especially this one:
“Patriarchal (male dominated) society is on its way into the history books.”
Maybe going backwards won’t be so bad after all.
JR,What? so you think gay couples are always gonna do a better job than heterosexual couples did for the “family?”
Keep dreaming…
I hate to admit that yet again I agree with you JR but that last statement would probably have to be the saddest.. yet most correct thing I have heard come out of your mouth… but it is true..