I’ve haven’t made up my mind yet about whether to build a fence along the U.S. border with Mexico. Many smart people say it will be another costly and ineffective government boondoggle. Still, we need to do something to better secure and regulate our borders.
Here is Washington Post columnist Robert J. Samuelson’s take: “The imagery is appalling, but it beats the alternative: a growing underclass and social tensions. Moreover, a genuine fence would probably work. The construction of about 10 miles of steel and concrete barriers up to 15 feet high in San Diego has reduced illegal crossings in that sector by about 95 percent since 1992, reports Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., a supporter of a U.S.-Mexico fence. Sure, there will be tunnels and ladders. But getting in will be harder. Policing will be easier.”
Samuelson also favors stiffening employer fines for hiring illegal immigrants and legalizing the immigrants already here. “It is not desirable or ethical to force most illegal immigrants to leave,” he wrote. “Yes, they broke the law, but we were complicit by making the law so easy to break.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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54 Comments
Build the damn fence. Get the damn national guard stationed on the border with the Border Patrol.
Oua La, ladies and gents!ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION CRISIS SOLVED
Troops should be on the border and a fence built but that is not enough. The criminal who broke into my country need to be deported!
“A recent study questions whether deporting illegal immigrants would be worth the cost. Deporting the Undocumented: A Cost Assessment, [PDF] was published by the Center for American Progress, a liberal think-tank. It’s touted as the first-ever estimate of costs associated with apprehending, detaining, prosecuting, and removing immigrants who have entered the United States illegally or overstayed their visas.
The cost of mass deportation according to CAP: $206 billion over five years ($41.2 billion per year). This study assumes that about 10 million illegals would be subject to deportation and 2 million would leave voluntarily if a mass deportation program was announced.
But $206 billion is an absurdly large figure. The largest chunk of it is apprehension costs ($141 billion). In arriving at this figure, researchers blithely assumed that the historical, abysmally low, deportee apprehension rates would continue under a mass deportation regime:
“We extrapolate from the available evidence to provide an estimate of the per-apprehension cost. In 1999, 240 agents apprehended 2,849 unauthorized workers, and, as noted above, 90 agents apprehended 445 unauthorized workers in 2003. Assuming a typical annual cost of $175,714 per agent, and after summing the number of apprehensions (3,294) and agents (330), the average apprehension cost comes to $17,603. Assuming a 20% voluntary departure rate, the total costs for apprehending 8,000,000 undocumented immigrants would be $141 billion over five years.”
Ten deportees per agent per year is the apprehension rate the researchers used in estimating the cost of apprehending 8 million illegals. Ten per year! You can find more illegals in front of Wal-Mart in a single afternoon.
But even if $206 billion was a reasonable cost estimate, mass deportation would be well worth it. Just consider the economic burden illegal aliens impose on the rest of us:
Federal Deficit: The average illegal alien household receives $2,736 more Federal services than it pays in taxes. (See Table 1.) Since there are at least 3.8 million such households, the total drain on the federal budget is about $10.3 billion. [Steven A. Camarota, “The High Cost of Cheap Labor: Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget,” CIS, August 2004]
These are conservative estimates. CIS assumes, for example, an illegal immigrant population of 8.7 million (the official Census Bureau figure) versus 10 million assumed in the deportation study. VDARE.COM’s D.A. King, later supported by other researchers [PDF] puts the illegal alien population as high as 20 million.
State and local deficits: The comprehensive immigration study sponsored by the National Research Council [The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration, 1997] examined the fiscal impact of immigrants in California. While it did not explicitly compare illegal and legal immigrants, the NRC research staff found that the average immigrant household generated $3,823 more state and local spending than it paid in state and local taxes. (See Table 2.) Using California as a proxy for the national average, I estimate that illegal aliens increase state and local deficits by about $15 billion annually.
American worker displacement effects: There are roughly 7 million illegal immigrants working in the U.S. – about 3.5 percent of the labor force. Each 1 percent rise in U.S. labor force due to immigration reduces native-born wages by about 0.35 percent, according to George Borjas. [PDF] It follows, then, that illegal immigrant workers reduce wages of U.S.-born workers by approximately 1.2 percent (3.5X0.35).
If politicians don’t care, they should. Assuming native-born federal, state, and local tax payments fall by the same percent, native workers cough up $26 billion less taxes due to unfair competition from illegal alien workers.
Total fiscal benefits of deportation are thus estimated at $51 billion per year—$25 billion in deficit reduction and $26 billion in foregone displacement losses.
At this rate, mass deportation would pay for itself in about four years.
Plus, of course, we’d get America back.”http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/060126_nd.htm
V.L.R.B!!
I’m surprised that Ian was not the first to post on this thread.
Hmm . . .
I guess I was too late.
What we need is a job-proof fence!
People who don’t even have a right to be here are enjoying perks that are paid from our tax dollars! Can you do that in any other effing country?? Hell no! Only in America, baby!
ONLY… IN… AMERICA…
Demand Real Solutions on Illegal Immigration
Congress and the Bush Administration are way behind the curve on illegal immigration relative to the desires of the American people. It is time for some serious solutions.
The Scale of the Problem
America’s illegal immigrant population grew by more than 500,000 last year and is now approaching 12 million. The flow from Mexico, which arrives predominantly by sneaking across the southwest border, has far outgrown that of any country, numbering about 6.2 million. About 2.5 million more are from the rest of Latin America, predominantly the Central American countries of El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. The remaining quarter is from nearly every other corner of the world, dominated by South and East Asia.
How Americans See It
A Quinnipiac University poll finds 88 percent of all poll respondents believe illegal immigration is a serious problem. “Red state, blue state and purple state voters agree: Illegal immigration is a serious problem.”,said Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.
By 62 percent to 32 percent, voters oppose making it easier for undocumented immigrants to become citizens. And it said that by 72 percent to 25 percent, U.S. voters oppose giving undocumented immigrants driver’s licenses. Nearly 40% of voters want the current levels of legal immigration reduced. By 84 percent to 14 percent, they favor requiring proof of legal residency to obtain government benefits.
What Needs to be Done
First, we need to get control of the borders. The goal should be zero illegal entries into this country. All other considerations for changes in immigration policy such as guest worker programs should be contingent on halting inflow first. Without border control, they are meaningless band aids that will make the situation worse.
Second, we need to deal with the 12 million illegals already in the country. Strong penalties should be imposed on employers for having illegals on the payroll. So called “safe haven” policies of municipalities must be abolished. INS funding should be dramatically increased to enforce laws already in place which are being ignored.
Third, after these measures are in place and functioning, a guest worker program should be instituted that is not a path to citizenship or permanent residency. Legal immigration processes should be improved for that purpose.
Demand Effective Legislation
We need to hold politicians feet to the fire on the issue, with particular attention to the Senate which is currently in the process of drafting legislation. This is not the time for “feel good” legislation that actually does nothing. The Kennedy-McCain bill is softball fluff that will not solve the problem, as is Sen. Arlen Specter’s bill that includes a guest-worker program.
We should have learned that enforcement needs to be the highest priority from the past “amnesty” programs, which contributed to getting us into this mess. Until we have an enforcement program that has proved to be working, we should not tolerate measures that just increase the numbers of illegals.
There will be a significant cost associated with accomplishing these goals, but they will be more than offset by the savings over what we are now paying. The estimated net cost of illegal immigration ranges between 130 billion to 400 billion annually. An effective approach to illegal immigration is critical to our economy and our security.
http://theflyoverzone.blogspot.com/2006/03/demand-real-solutions-on-illegal.html
Totally agree that our borders are totally out of control, and that the illegals living here drain some of our resources (health, education, police, etc.)
One problem…a lot of illegals take jobs that nobody else would.
Case in point, in the late 1980’s, I saw a white couple on a street corner in Tustin several times. They had a sign, “will work for food”. Two blocks away, you could see a strawberry harvest going on..where the workers get paid for the number of boxes they bring to the truck.
Drive north on Highway 101 north of Oxnard and look at the people working the fields. They are certainly not high paid union laborers.
So, if we penalize the people who employ illegals and force them to pay union scale wages, the cost of a head of lettuce could possibly top $10 (guessing here, just illustrating a point).
My main point here is that there is no easy “quick fix”.
Border fence? Dream on, wingnuts. Global capital demands mobile labor.
On second thought, keep on screaming: this is a GREAT wedge issue for Democrats to split the GOP into its pro-business and nationalist / racist factions. Just look at the above discussion between raptor v. CrusaderX, Ian Santiago.
You build a higher fence, they’ll just find a taller ladder. Not going to change anything.
The only thing that will change it is to militarize the border Soviet style Iron Curtian. But I seriously doubt we will go that far.
Really the only solution is for the USA to take over Mexico. It’s sounds silly and radical, but you talk to a recent immigrant from Mexico and they would love it for the USA to take over.
Practically all immigrants from Mexico would rather stay in their homeland with their families, but what are you going to do when all you have is massive corruption, brought about by 70+ years of leftist rule, very high violent crime rates, and no opporunity for employement and business creation.
I don’t blame them. I would be doing all I can to come to the USA also.
Add some gun towers and make it even better.
“Leftist rule in Mexico”!!!
Hey, Joe, whatever wacky tobaccy you’re smoking, don’t bogart that joint, my friend.
For many decades recently, only FOUR families owned the entire penisula of Baja California.
Four.
Since land reform is a key plank of leftist ideology and concentration of wealth, land and power is just fine for conservatives, you’d have to say, like any knowledgable and rational person, that Mexico is perfect example of laisse-faire CAPITALISM.
That with a strong influence of the ultra-traditional Catholic church keeping the poor, poor (they’ll be pie in the sky by and by) and the women barefoot and pregnant.
The irony is that our own NAFTA helped cause this mess–we force Mexico to buy our gov’t subsidized corn for instance, using fossile fuel fertilizers and fossile water from irreplacable aquifers, and it drives the campisinos out of business.
A donkey and a single bottom plow can’t compete with gov’t subsidized US agri-business.
Joe, before you post the word “leftist,” think about what it means and if it really applies to the situation.
With Martin Luther King, it does. With Venezuala, it does. With Mexico, it doesn’t.
i think they should not put a fence by the border because i think is not ganna whort nothing they still going to go through and dig a hole again.so dont be wasting youre time on the building a fence
i think they shuold not put a fence over the border because is not ganna worth nothing so all ya mother fucker bithches dont be wasting yall mother fuker time on the fense and i kwow some body that helps people cross the border so ha ha ha !!!!! siykkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!! jokin!!!!! see ya later,maria
“Maria”–
Thanks for the conservative view.
It was as well thought out as your support for Bush.
Uh,,,,,Thank you ana. I think that pretty much summarizes the current administrations attitude and policy.
Proudlib? Before you eat Joe WIlliams lunch ya oughtta have breakfast. Aww it’s ok I don’t think Joe counts as a serving.
Better idea here. Let’s hire contractors to build a wall. Not a fence, a wall.
Incentivize the contractors with lucrative funding (Think Halliburton in Iraq here) Suspend all work and labor restrictions. This stops the folks right at the border building the very wall that will ultimately solve the problem. Gather illegals already in the country and send them also to work the project.
Brandon–
I’m not sure which is more annoying–your positions that sound like re-cycled Rush Limbaugh or your writing style.
Example: “relative to the desires of the American people.” Your prose sounds like it was lifted from a particularly boring high school social studies textbook.
If we want to read warmed over conservate platitudes written with a soporific sentensiousness, we’d just read William F. Buckley circa 1978.
Google Justin Raimondo:
“The events of 9/11 were an enormous defeat for the U.S., and it is precisely in these circumstances – the traumatic humbling of a power once considered mighty – that the fascist impulse begins to find its first expression. That, at any rate, is the historical experience of Germany, for example, where a defeated military machine regenerated itself on the strength of German resentment and lashed out at Europe once again.”
Or The Rude pundit:
“Spyin’ and Lyin’:Sweet Jesus, the lies we must live with, the litany of falsehoods that all of us must commit in order to exist in this world. There’s a paper trail of our lies – we may wish to call them “hypocrisies,” but, indeed, they are nothing but lies. Somewhere there’s a yearbook buried in an attic where, in your junior high scrawl, you promised the yearbook’s owner, “Friends 4ever,” written for someone who is a memory, a ghost, a whisper, a forgotten thing, like an old rag doll. There’s boxes and drawers of love letters, sweet commitments to so many people, each one of whom, you believed, fully, with the entirety of what you call your heart, that you thought this person was the one. But time changes us, does it not? Time changes us and the heart clicks into a new position, and those things we swore, all the future promises, all the endearments and turns of phrase saying that there would be more, more of time, more of learning about each other, all of that is gone, gone, gone. But somewhere, someone’s got that box, got those words. And that someone knows the truth: that you are actually a liar, and you shift in the winds of circumstance.
“So it is when we look at Senator Olympia Snowe’s website, we see that she proudly keeps her box of lies open for all to see. . . ”
THAT is blogging.
Trying to sound like “The National Review,” and failing even at that, is not.
Verbs, Brandon, use some verbs, for gosh sake.
Just recently in Kansas a pickup truck containing 19 illegal aliens was involved in a rollover accident. Three of the aliens were killed. The driver of the truck will now be charged with a crime that could be a capital offense. It is estimated that the cost of trying a capital crime in the state of Kansas is $1M+. Aliens injured in the accident were taken to hospitals around the state and are being taken care of with state funds. Not long after this accident, state troopers stopped a UHaul truck containing 12 illegal aliens. After contacting immigration officials and being told they had no room to hold/process these aliens, the troopers had the truck towed away and let the aliens go. They had “no reason to hold them.” The illegals were last seen with their belongings standing near the turnpike.The high number of illegals working in this state has skewed the employment rates so that it looks like there is not an unemployment problem in Kansas. The statement that the illegals are doing jobs that citizens would not do is a cop out. When you go into a store or call a business and have to deal with someone who barely speaks English, those are jobs that should have been filled by citizens. English is the national language of the US. Local WalMarts run announcements via their PA systems in Spanish. TV ads mostly in Spanish are starting to pop up. Billboards in Spanish are beginning to show up around town.Ross Perot was right about NAFTA….I hear that giant sucking sound he talked about.
“88 percent of all poll respondents believe illegal immigration is a serious problem. Red state, blue state and purple state voters agree: Illegal immigration is a serious problem.”
One serious writing problem results from echoing the same words. This is a serious problem.
“The flow from Mexico, which arrives predominantly”
Can a “flow” arrive? Doesn’t flow imply continuity?
“Legal immigration processes should be improved for that purpose.”
Ah, processes should be improved! Whoa, don’t go out too far on a limb there . . . “improved” really?!Let’s hear from the other side–who believes that the processes whatever they are should be “dis-improved.” Anyone?
“There will be a significant cost associated with accomplishing these goals.” Impressive. Spoken like junior vice-president a small-town bank. Now if we just had the power-point presentation with those little ant-guys to go along with it . . .
And check that clinching concluding sentence–”An effective approach to illegal immigration is critical to our economy and our security.”
Is it possible to put more bland generalities into a single sentence? Perhaps . . .
Here, I have a Brandon writing generator you can use:
Match the words in group A with the words in group B and group C and finally add a hackneyed cliche to form a perfect Brandonism.
Start with a wordy “explicative sentence” and a passive voice verb
“There are . . .
A– significant, effective, important, powerful, serious, meaningless, strong, functional
B–policies, institutions, programs, plans, regulations, restrictions, agencies, enforcement
C–”to be”instituted, implimented, strengthened, improved, put into practice, enforced, expanded.
So you get “there are significant policies to be instituted” OR “there are serious regulations to be enforced” OR “there are functional agencies to be expanded.”
See how it works? One says nothing, and says it badly.
And don’t forget the hackneyed cliche–”hold their feet to the fire, meaningless band aid, softball fluff, feel good legislation.”
“There are important regulations to be strengthened, but only if we hold their feet to fire to ward off feel good legislation.”
Dang, I wonder if I could write a software program to write a Brandon-style blog wholly without my intervention?
PLDamn, I had the same sensation when I read Brandons post. I expected Jack and Jill to come running across the screen next. I think Brandon’s already got a market on that style blogging.
Sigh…
Just build the wall already. I say we send the National Guard and Reserve units on rotating tours patroling the border too.
It is too easy. Illegal drug trafficaing reduced and illegal imigration reduced.
I don’t know why any administration let alone this one wont do it besides the politics of it.
LOL
Damn Pl.
LOLYou already had Joe’ lunch. Now ya want Brandons too?
CF,So everyone who advocates for a fence is a racist? Perhaps you forgot the many American Hispanics who also advocate for a fence and tighter border security? Perhaps you forgot that I’m Hispanic. You are beginning to spiral out of control, my uber-liberal friend. Labelling people as racists who are simply concerned with the security of our country isn’t going to get your precious Democrat party anywhere.
Nathan, most of the people I know are all for controlling who crosses the border. And was it the gov of Arizona who’s trying to order NG troops to the border?
Looks like the skank maria is a spelling bee winner or wineer
Gee, Nathan,We could build our own Maginot Line! We all know how effective they are!
There are no National Gurad or Reserve troops available to do the job.
Maybe we should have those well trained brigades of Iraqi police (chuckle) sent over here to do border patrol work while the NG and Reserves are deployed in Iraq.
I havn’t had time to read all the above posts but I think if arresting employers that hire them would serve the same purpose as building a fence.Not allowing them to use the excuse of them having legitimate looking documents.Ignorance is no excuse!
I translated the email addresses of “ana laura” and “maria” at google and in English the result was “small marijuana user”.
Anyone else suspect that this is the handiwork of Ian?
DD,Nah, not even Ian could spell that bad!
DD,
I resent the implication that I engage in “trolling”! I have never done so and I never will!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Jed,
If we build a wall across the border then the slithering beaner invaders will be forced to swim for it up the Pacific Ocean or across the Gulf of Mexico, good luck! I would also suggest landmines and guard towers with heavy machine guns and weekly sweeps for tunnels and the invader problem would soon be solved.
As for the scum that hire illegals, they should face prison time, asset forfeiture and prosecution under the RICO statutes. Politicians and judges who aid, abet, reward, encourage and excuse the invaders should face recall, impeachment and trial for treason and suitable punishment!
As for your Maginot Line comparison, well that is ridiculous. The low iq, disease ridden, criminal beaner invaders are not the Wermacht and thre is no Belgium via which they could bypass our security wall!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Ian,don’t you mean you “resemble” the implication . . .
DD,
I don’t troll, never have. I only post under my full, real name.
cheers.
Here’s the rub: Our fearless wingnuts have proposed a “gold card” be issued to all immigrants, good for two years, and reissued on an unlimited basis. If that doesn’t give the democrats an issue to build a platform on, nothing will.
We have the infamous homeland security act, which cuts into peoples rights, and then they propose gold cards for immigrants, effectively pardoning every illegal in the country. How moronic is that?Sorry about the wingnut link, but they had the best description.
http://www.rightnation.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=98969
The sign in the picture will be on the Mexican side facing America if any more illegal immagrants flood America and drain it’s resources. Americans will not be allowed in Mexico when things here get equally as bad! Any more you have to be from Mexico to get a vision card to get food for your family. How many weeks does the average American work to support the food stamps and government paid health care. Hell, Americans can,t even get health care now days! Who knows Osama Bin Laden might put on some old jeans, cowboy boots, and a poncho and bring terrorists across the border. The solution could be stage a trial test bomb range in Mexico to prepare for when we go nuke Iran. Make sure the wind is from the north!
The statement keeps coming from those who push for open immigration that “they do jobs that US citizens won’t do”. The facts speak for themselves.http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/14044655.htm?temp
Build it. Even FDR understood that when you come to America you do so in a legal manner, you learn the english language and you become a citizen.
Our doors have always been open but it is now becoming a nation of everything but Americans.
“Looks like the skank maria is a spelling bee winner or wineer
“Posted by: Rom Lewis |”
But, she can at least spell her name correctly.
A fence is going to be expensive to build along the border. How about we take the cheap way out and just install a mine field? Crude, but effective!
Darwin’sDickhead…So can I. My name is Rom….so what asshole
Rom,Well, pleased to make your acquaintence, too.
XXX,
I was actually thinking that myself.
But you know how things go… The drug dealers would send some helpless little 10 year old mexican boy wandering through till he was blown up and then it would be all over the international news outlets that mean old human rights violating imperialistic America has killed some little boy with a mine or worse yet turned him into sushi in a hospital bed for the rest of his life…
It was the same thing that happened when we had the Marines down there and they shot a boy who was shooting at them.
“Darwin’sDickhead…So can I. My name is Rom….so what asshole”
Then, why does your email address say “ron@efn.org. Were your parents, too stupid to know how to spell “Ron”?
I bet you make friends where ever you go. Punk-ass-butt-face.
I bet it wasn’t fun servicing the real men in prison, was it?
OUCH!
Never saw Darwin get heated like that! I don’t blame him.
Ron or Rom or whatever? Get yourself straight as to your nic/id and then come on back. When you do, start with something better than an attack on someones spelling!
We seem unanimous here as to illegal immigration. The bush port deal tells us that we can still make a difference. Let us resolve to make a difference in this.
A few days ago. 75,000 illegal invaders in Chicago paraded and protested and demanded their right to be illegal! Where the hell was the Department of immigration?
If I was a bank robber and paraded in protest with 75,000 other bank robbers for my right to continue to rob banks, could I get away with it?
If laws are gonna be optional in this country because ignoring them is lucrative for some then I want in on that!
I ROBOT had a good solution.. Store them in shipping containers..Nafta is a joke , send the jobs to Mexico. Plus Fox sends all his crimminals to the USA..Now they dont have to learn English at all because of nafta .. Everything has the 3 language labels….Last weekend the Kansas turnpike let at lest 50 go….If the states that border Mexico wont take care of the problem then maybe the Governor of Kansas should call out the National Guard to close the Kansas border.The construction industry wages have stagnated because of the cheap inbread mexican labor..
Welcome Driabyor. Ive not seen you before.
My family came to America in 1634 from England . Fought in every major battle to secure our freedom and to perserve our Independance… and to watch our Goverement sit by idle with the back door to our Country open makes me sick .We are all told that the price of our fruit and vegatables will increase if we remove the immigrants from the fields . It is interesting to hear this stated since most of our produce comes from South America in the first place . Not to mention it is also filled with pestisides and chemicals .
In his Saturday radio address, I heard the president say that “there are some jobs that Americans will NOT do,” and I wonder how many Americans listening buy that crap.
The president is telling a half-truth and letting the US down in doing so. If he were completely forthcoming, he should have said “there are some jobs that Americans will NOT do _at the current market price for labor_.”
Something tells me that if picking honeydew mellons in Colorado paid US$15 per hour then we’d see that Americans will indeed do those jobs.
It’s a shame to see a purported Republican president argue that taxes to the very rich must be reduced (that ending 2x-taxing of corporate dividends is a key driver of our economy, an extremely radical argument economically) and that America must become an Ownership Society while propping the whole thing up with cheap illegal-immigrant labor.
The president runs a very real risk of hurting Americans badly by literally begging for an anti-GATT, anti-NAFTA, anti-CAFTA backlash in the form of a rollback of this very important – but very tricky – legislation.
President Bush’s fiscal policy is toxic to the middle class and fatal to America’s poor who also happen to be US citizens.
This is not leadership, folks.
Woops, should have said his immigration policy is toxic to the American middle class and fatal to poor US citizens.
His fiscal policy very strongly favors the wealthy.
File with the IRS in reporting employers hiring illegals and reporting illegals and GET a REWARD $$$$ Pass this along to as many people as possible. Here is the web address for the form.>>>>>> http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f211.pdf <<<<
BULDIN DAT FENCE WONT WORK AT 4 ALL DA PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY SHOULD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DAMN IT PEOPLE IM ONLY 17 N I THINK DATS STUPID ITS GONNA COST A LOT OF FUCKIN MONEY!!!!!!!!!
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