An Afghan judge is resisting international pressure to dismiss the case against Abdul Rahman (in photo), a 41-year-old man facing the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity. Rahman, who converted 15 years ago, has been described by prosecutors as a “microbe.” The Bush administration is lobbying hard on his behalf. And President Bush noted Wednesday that persecuting converts is “not the universal application of the values that I talked about.” But it is part of the values of the hard-liners who control the courts in Afghanistan and other countries among U.S. allies.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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83 Comments
Will this remind anyone that separation of church and state is a good thing?
Does the Iraqi constitution have a similar “clause” i.e. that no Iraqi law can conflict with Islamic law?
Boy is that a messed up deal in Afganistan.
So the tar baby has grown!
It’s a rouge judge. Last night on Nightline, they said that Hamid Karzai assured the world that he would not be put to death.
He wants religous freedom and tolerance in Afghanistan.
Rogue Judge, you’ve got to be kidding, four Clerics have called for the execution of the convert, whether he stands trial or not. Their laws incorporate their Sharia, not our constitution. Democracy in the Mid-East equates to theocracy, how many American lives is that worth?
If Karzai’s guarantee is any good then it means the makeup contest* is in Kabul.
Because that’s the only place Karzai has any clout.
*–A judge of rouge?!? Gotta be a makeup contest of some sort, right?
The Christian Right should be really proud of our “accomplishments” in Afghanistan ! All you right-wing nut jobs should head over and start building “Christan” churches.The Afghan people “need” you !
It is that ever so mysterious “Christian right” again…
Actually my post to this thread mistakenly appears on the Christian peacemakers in Iraq thread. They are kinda transposable.
Onward Christian soldiers!
I thought we went there to catch ossama bin forgotten. I thought we were there to root out the people responsible for 9/11. I thought we went to fight them there so we wouldnt have to fight them here.
When did we go there to bring them democracy? Or our brand of theocracy? They seem to want their own theocracy. Go figure.
And again, the pesky problem with democracy is, well, bushco cant control it. If the majority rules and they want to govern by sheria law, who are we to say they cant do that?
Isnt that what democracy is all about? Like in Palestine? We cant tell them HOW to vote after we BRING them the vote…can we?
Not unless we want them to live by OUR values, not THEIR values.
But shrub himself says they are not applying OUR values and implies their values are wrong. So much for self determination.
I didnt know we were there to occupy and force them to submit to our values. I thought, well, what I said at first.
Mission creep anyone?
Our job in Afghanistan is only partly done – - -
Until they have freedom of religen, make them quit growing poppies,completely eliminate the Elcita(sp) and see to it they no longer teach “hate America” in their schools, their job is not done!
ksfarmgrl,
democracy was a nice second. Our mission was to destory the Taliban, find Osama, and destory Al Queada.
If you look at all the top leadership and infrastructure we have killed or captured in Al Queda you would see that we have done a pretty good job so far.
Typical liberal you are, you think Osama is the only person we were ever after and the mission is a complete failure because we did not get him.
You choose to ignore all the people we have killed or captured so you can pursue your own I hate Bush agenda of lies and mistruths.
It is a terrorist victory every day the OBL walks free. I would also like to see al Zawahiri captured or killed also – actually, he may be more dangerous than bin Laden.
Nathan, I hope you are not disrespecting our nation’s mission by trying to say the al Qaeda is not important. Even Bush is belatedly coming around to seeing the importance of capturing/killing terrorists. You know the ones who planned and executed the 9/11 attack?
No punishment for changing religion has been prescribed in the Holy Quran but on the other hand the following verse completely refutes this erroneous claim:
Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the right way. (Chapter4 Al-Nisa: Verse138)This verse proclaims that persons who renounce Islam have the opportunity to re-enter Islam if they so choose. This verse disproves the assertion that according to the Holy Quran an apostate should be put to death. Were death the automatic punishment for an apostate then there arises no question of having the opportunity to join Islam again. This verse mentions apostates who again accept Islam.There is no mention in the Holy Quran or anywhere else of any punishment for an apostate which may be meted out to him by any other person. The consequences of his apostasy in this world and in the next life lie solely in the hands of God. Man is free to accept or reject whatever beliefs he chooses. God says in the Holy Quran:
There is no compulsion in religion. (Chapter2 Al_baqara: Verse257)It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve. (Chapter18 Al-Kahf: Verse30)Islam recognizes the right of freedom of conscience and freedom of belief and that as far as one’s religious belief is concerned one is answerable to God alone. No man has the right to punish another for his choice of belief. There is absolutely no compulsion whatsoever in Islam and no punishment of any kind permitted in the Holy Quran for apostasy.Human rights are laid down in the Holy Quran which guarantee man the right of perfect freedom of faith and conscience. In such matters God is the Judge – not man
My better post to this is on the wrong thread. My bad.
I guess our soldiers gotta die for something.
Clearly it wasn’t to get bin Laden. No boogey man no justification for an open ended multi-national war
It wasn’t to get rid of the Taliban, they are regaining power.
You could say in a perverse way that they died for Afghani self determination ……and atrocities like this.
In the end they died and die and keep dying for bush.FOR bush!How sad is that!
DD,
“Nathan, I hope you are not disrespecting our nation’s mission by trying to say the al Qaeda is not important.”
Huh? Last time I checked it was you and others here who are against our President’s mission to prevent any further terrorist attacks.
“Even Bush is belatedly coming around to seeing the importance of capturing/killing terrorists.”
What alternate universe do you live in DD? This has been what Bush has been talking about since day one.
JR,
They are not dying for Bush anymore than they are for you.
So tell us JR, if Bush or Afghanistan or Iraq isnt worth dying for, what is?
“What alternate universe do you live in DD? This has been what Bush has been talking about since day one.”
The alternate universe where Bush attacks Iraq due to WMD that don’t exist there and because of Iraq’s alleged connection to al Qaeda (which also has not been shown to exist).
Bush has shown an inability to consider al Qaeda as seperate from nation states. Surely, I don’t have to draw that picture for you, do I?
They aint dying for me Nathan. I didn’t send them there to accomplish nothing other than getting killed. I also do not advocate that they continue to do so to accomplish nothing more.
My conscience is clear. How ’bout you?
Nathan,I can find the sources where Bush says “I don’t think about him [bin Laden] much any more.” You are not disputing he said this, are you?
DD, even Saddams generals thought he had them. If someone points a gun at a cop, he has every right to shoot them. If it turns out the gun wasnt loaded, that isnt the cops fault! Using the argument you do shows you to be stuck in first gear.
And Nathan, and I guess I have to add Don Murphy, you are not disputing that Osama and Sadam are different people? One attacked us, one did not?
I would not dispute that they are seperate. Of course, I would ask if you dispute the documents becoming available showing them more or less allied? Or is that just some crazy conspiracy to make the administration look better?
Don, Saddam thought that there people real eager to kick his butt (namely, Iran) – thus Saddam’s reasons for not wanting to portray himself as someone who did not have WMD. Thus, I would contend that you are the one stuck in first gear for wanting to use the argument you do.
Good luck dd.
Nathan: “Our mission was to destory the Taliban, find Osama, and destory Al Queada”
How are all three of them going for ya?
Can you point to ANY of them that have been accomplished? Or is this just a “kill ‘em all, let god sort ‘em out?
Hee hee. Your words, not mine. Let’s see…we havent got ossama, from this post, the taliban still seems to be in charge, and al queda seems to be doing just fine, no matter how many of them you claim to have caught or killed.
Even by your own standards, this is a failure.
DD,
Saddam did attack us. He has shot at several of our planes while they were enforcing the no fly zone after the first gulf war.
Semantics aside,
Lets look at things through mere common sense.
Did Saddam ever have WMD’s?
Pardon me if I interject Nathan. KFG, how would you characterize 1944 for the United States?
“So tell us JR, if Bush or Afghanistan or Iraq isnt worth dying for, what is?”
OMG, let THAT ring in your head!
Like afghanistan and iraq are the highest possible calling for the death of americans? Yikes.
I guess then murphy is saying that if afghanistan and iraq are not worth dying for, then nothing is worth dying for?
Uh, what does CF call that? False bifurcation?
“I would ask if you dispute the documents becoming available showing them more or less allied?”
Gee murphy, wanna post a link to those documents or the reports of those documents?
Who wants to bet he cant or wont do it? Who wants to bet it is a meme?
I think a part of the problem with many people (of both liberal and conservative bent) is that they want instant success. Immediate gratification. When things dont come quickly enough, whether it is a relationship or a war, they throw fits and call it a failure.
Sorry, it is off topic, but I think it accurately reflects a worldview that leads to disaster.
Ksfarmgrl,
I see the strawman beat down is going well for you.
Why do you even bother posting here if you are going to speak for those you are debating with?
The Taliban no longer is in control of Afghanistan. Neither I nor Bush claimed that it would be easy. It takes time for people to change and coming out from a very repressive regime like the Taliban is not something that is going to happen overnight with dramatic changes.
I don’t see them on the TV saying they support Al Queada or openly allowing terrorist training anymore do you?
I don’t understand how anoyne can sit here and say that this is a complete failure. You have to openly disregard the facts of all the leadership we have caught or killed in Al Queada.
I sure don’t see Osama openly defying the US or giving interviews anymore do you?
He may or may not be dead, but he sure isn’t sitting comfortably in Afghanistan training people to kill us like he used to.
You have so much hate for Bush that you can’t even look at this with any hint of rationale thought…
KFG you are ignorant. The question was sincere and I await an answer. I did not state that they are worth dying for. Rather, since JR is convinced they arent worth it, I want to know what, in his opinion, is.
As for a link, I will be happy to find you one, though I doubt you will follow it. Also, for those of use who try to speak in plain English and not ebonics, would you kindly tell me what a ‘meme’ is?
Don,I am not aware of “documents becoming available showing them [Saddam & OBL] more or less allied.” Do you have an credible evidence of this? Note the word “credible”.
I stick by my contention that there is no such credible evidence.
The Taliban no longer is in control of Afghanistan.
Really? Then why are they executing christians?
If Al Queada has been defeated why are the troops not coming home?
bin laden and his deputies have always taken their time with communications. Just because you havent heard any recently doesnt mean there arent more to come.
What sincere question did you ask me here murphy? I cant find one.
What straw man? Nathan made statements and I refute them
If you are too lame to look up meme, then you can remain uninformed. I have said repeatedly I am not doing research for you or anyone else.
Even someone with a kansas education can look things up these days.
“KFG you are ignorant.”
I consider that a compliment from the likes of don murphy.
Now lets see your FACTS and EVIDENCE and LINKS as requested.
“DD,
“Saddam did attack us. He has shot at several of our planes while they were enforcing the no fly zone after the first gulf war.
“Semantics aside,
“Lets look at things through mere common sense.
“Did Saddam ever have WMD’s?”
Nathan, YOU KNOW full well I was referring to 9/11. Please don’t change the subject and try to argue something else. I am not chasing that red herring. Was Saddam behind, involved with, in any way, 9/11. You know as well as I do, the answer to that question is NO.
KFG, I didnt ask you a sincere question, you butted into one that I asked JR.
DD, documents as credible as ABC, which though biased, usually does better then CBS… As I said, if I can find a link, I’ll post it.
heheh…
Is this the “sincere question”?
“I would ask if you dispute the documents becoming available showing them more or less allied?”
Well how can we answer until you show us the documents or there is something we can read so we CAN dispute or not dispute them?
“So tell us JR, if Bush or Afghanistan or Iraq isnt worth dying for, what is?”
You mean this question? Like I said, if they arent worth dying for, it doesnt mean that NOTHING is worth dying for.
Can you look up bifurcation?
As usual my dear, you are jumping in the middle of something you know nothing about. You also prove my point about demanding instant results. Are you a microwave or something?
Instant results?
ROFLMAO.
No I am not a microwave, just a stupid athiest lesbian democrat with a VERY old computer and a dial up connection.
Just a little non-christian charity here dude. Let me help ya
This is listed as the Afghaninstan Resouces site. OF course since it is from a university, it will have no credibility for the likes of murphy.
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/SSEAL/SouthAsia/afghan_US.html
Here’s a little charity on bifurcation too. Not that I think you will actually understand it, but hey,
IT EVEN INCLUDES A DIAGRAM.
A picture for ya don.
Are you still looking for your link?
ROFLMAO
http://ironphoenix.org/tril/bif/
Oops, I was laughing so hard I forgot the link.
What is it I know nothing about?
Once again, I can read and actually…SEARCH.
Can you?
The link. http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1734490&page=1
I found it pretty quickly actually, but since Im at work by the pool with my feet up and a little unbrella drink in my hand I got a little sidetracked.
And you are correct, seeing Berkeley means as much to me as TownHall would to you.
Hmmm…. he’s either left the thread or….
let me spell it real slow.
g-o-o-g-l-e-
KFG and you wonder why people attack you…it isn’t because your gay..it’s because you are rude and when it’s not going you way you get pissed… talk about a reason to stay on the porch…
Is someone askingme what I would die for?
KFG, the tone of these threads are civil and even reasonably intelligent until you arrive. You are utterly defined by what is between your legs and it has poisoned your mind and spirit. I have nothing further to say to you. Mock on little girl.
Well what is so rude about the truth? I certainly havent called anyone names here. Names like ignorant.
I am really HOWLING now. I urge EVERYONE to click on don’s link and then actually READ WHAT IS THERE!!!
Don, ya should have checked out the editors notes!
Of course, he is gonna say they are out of context!! heheh, not much context to doubt here.
“(Editor’s Note: This document is handwritten and has no official seal.)”
“(Editor’s Note: The controversial claim that Osama bin Laden was cooperating with Saddam Hussein is an ongoing matter of intense debate. While the assertions contained in this document clearly support the claim, the sourcing is questionable — i.e., an unnamed Afghan “informant” reporting on a conversation with another Afghan “consul.” The date of the document — four days after 9/11 — is worth noting but without further corroboration, this document is of limited evidentiary value.)”
Inside the document it says this:
The document does not establish that the two parties did in fact enter into an operational relationship.
SO uh, yeah, based on the document’s editor’s OWN NOTES I do dispute what YOU say the document says.
Funny stuff guys. Sorry if pointing out the truth is rude. You should try it sometime.
Notice the Berkeley site, if you ever go to it, has no EDITORIAL comment. It is a list of resources and links where you can do your own research.
Really. You should try it sometime.
I was asking you JR. To recap the question: you seem to feel that the various activities of our military arent worth dying for. They may not be, I wont debate that right now. What, in your opinion, is worth dying for?
What did I tell you all?
THEY HATE IT WHEN THEY ARE PROVEN WRONG.
I see how civil you all have been.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHa
Oh was that who was asking??
Pass
Yeah JR, if you arent willing to die for two foreign countries or bush’s war, what the hell ARE you worth dying for?
ROFLMQAO
So then by KFG’s logic, since I passed and therefore hate to be proven wrong, JR also hates to be proven wrong as he passed on my question.
ouch Don…good call
I am selective about who I post to. Some folks don’t pass muster.
I suppose that I am not emulating a policy of not confronting that which I disagree with. Isnt that what the liberals postulate? How is it that when they feel they are right, the forcing of an issue becomes allowable? Quite simply, they are hypocritical, deceptive, and untrustworthy.
Well, I too am selective. KFG no longer passes muster. Nice how that argument works.
I prefer to let some people define themselves.
Why yes, that works wonders! KFG has defined herself as an obnoxious brat who likes to argue and emote for the sake of the argument. She has no self esteem so apparently feels the need to try to take it forcibly from others. She desperately needs a psychologist. You on the other hand have had an occasional good point to make. I find it saddening that you dont rise to the occasion. That is your right, but it makes me far less likely to take your posts seriously when you evade and dodge under cover of ‘muster’.
heheh. You didnt pass don. You answered. Remember the old saying “it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
He asks JR for opinion. JR refuses him.
I ask him for FACTS. He tries and fails
See what civil response that generates?
Too MUCH fun.
No one earns any respect from me when they insult my friends. When they start out in the negative and keep digging it aint likely they ever will.
Your friend is one of the worst to insult everyone in every way that does not agree with her. how does that keep you open JR
I agree with KFG, OBL and Saddam officials talking in the mid 1990’s seems to fall pretty short of an operational alliance. Nice Try.
Though you did much better than I expected, Don. I figured you would link to some nut-job site.
DD, I thank you for the comment.
You’re welcome.
KFG has carpet munching on the brain. Don’t expect much in the way of informed commentary from it.
Wow what insightful rhetoric “Jimmy”! But since I’ve not seen “Jimmy” here before, I am curious as to your font of knowledge as to a poster……given your new presence here.If you are new, you have made a poor start. You did not address the thread and posted only a short personal attack against someone you “presumably” know nothing about.What is MORE likely “Jimmy” is that you are not new here but lack the balls to post an attack without using your ususal screen name.
In any case “Jimmy” your post would be termed a “blogfart”.
Don,it looks to me like your link got shot full of holes. And one of the documents refered to has been floating around for years and was on the internet in 1997.
Pardon if we’re a little sceptical of “documents” that show up from unsubstantiated sources. Some of us are still a little suspicious after the yellowcake forgeries and the WMD we were lied to about.
But back to the original subject, are we ok with having American soldiers dying to support a government based on Islamic law? In my humble opinion, I think we’re going to end up with Islamic theocracies in both Afghanistan and Iraq. How many American lives is that worth?
I’m perplexed over the comment about dying for Afghanistan, Iraq, and Bush. I don’t consider either country worth dying for. Die for Bush? Would you?
America on the other hand, is worth dying for.Don, have you ever served in combat or faced hostile fire in defense of your country? Not that it’s important, but I like to gather data for a theory I have about tough-talking conservatives and actual war experience. I kind of question anybody who is all gung-ho for war but has never been shot at.
Not infering anything…just asking.
The good news is that Bush’s Iraq war has resulted in stemming the tide of terrorist imported into Iraq; the bad news is that Bush’s war has increased the # of terrorist exported out of Iraq. Iraq may have had a little terrorist camp or two in remote areas before the war. Today the whole country is a training camp, and Al-Quida recruiters dream. Gotta be ‘Worth the Dying For’.
JR, carpet munching was one of blogfart’s favorite sayings regarding phill klein.
Lauging XXX. Dont they call those conservatives yellow elephants? Google operation yellow elephants and see what you find. Tucker Carlson is their poster boy!
Prior to BushCo’s invasion the only alQuada presence in Iraq was under the no-fly protection up north in the autonomour Kurdish area. Today alQuada has free reign throughout Iraq. I guess this is another “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED”
Don writes–”I think a part of the problem with many people (of both liberal and conservative bent) is that they want instant success. Immediate gratification. When things dont come quickly enough, whether it is a relationship or a war, they throw fits and call it a failure.”
Well, gee, Don, who told us this was going to be fast and painless? Maybe Donald Rumsfilled, Sec’ry of War?
Q–”How long will we the the war last, Mr. Sec’ry?”
Rumshow–”Could be six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.”
IT’S THREE EFFING YEARS! And Bush is talking about the occupation continuing indefinitely.
I don’t want instant success, Don. I just want some EVIDENCE that success is possible after THREE YEARS . . .
PL, I saw a replay on the news this anniversary week of an interview three years ago where rummy was talking about the estimated eventual cost of the war.
He said maybe 20 billion at the outside. The interviewer said that other people were estimating that the war would cost closer to 250 billion.
Rummy’s answer? “Baloney”.
so…how do we all like our sandwiches three years later.
Mayo or mustard anyone?
I find it utterly hilarious that not a damn person here actually commented about the post from Farooq. What’s the matter guys? It’s ok to be “critical” of Christianity but it is not ok to be “critical” of Islam? Perhaps it is only ok to bash Christianity because the majority of people in this country are its practitioners, but oh no! we can’t be critical of Islam because they are a M-I-N-O-R-I-T-Y!
Since no one here has BALLS, I the great Blogfart1 shall criticize this post. (Call the ACLU!) So finally:
Dear Farooq,What is the difference between the Quran of the “moderate” Islamists and the Quran of the “extremist” Islamists? Are they not one in the same book? Or do the “extremists” a.k.a “RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS” practice a different religion altogether?
Humbly awaiting your reply..BLOGFART1
KFG, I lose more conservatives with that question. As I’ve said before, being shot at gives you a whole different outlook on war.
Can we say C-H-I-C-K-E-N-H-A-W-K?
Interesting, KFG . . . what TV show had the temerity to show what BushCo was saying three years ago.
That’s practically a treasonous act to the con-servatives.
*****
CrusX– Yup, I thought “Farooq” was full of crap too, but what are you going to do about it?
We don’t live in Iran, do we.
But, Farooq (if you’re for real), it’s not what your holy books SAY, it’s what you religious people DO.
Same goes for us Christians . . .
PL,True, the same does go for us. You are one of the few liberal bloggers that I actually respect.
Cheers, CrusX. And welcome back.
PL, well, I slept several times since that show, but I think it was on MSNBC or CNN or NBC evening news. I’m pretty sure it wasnt the food network, my other fallback channel.:) Maybe it was on Dateline. I watch a lot of news and cant get CBS, and I dont watch ABC or fox, so it was probably MSNBC OR NBC news.