The good news is that the empty Omnisphere at 220 S. Main is about to be returned to productive use, its $330,000 purchase by Fidelity Bank having been approved Tuesday by the Wichita City Council on a 6-1 vote. The bad news is that the beautiful landmark now leaves public hands for the first time since it was built as a Carnegie Library in 1914, with no prospect of public use in its future. To his credit, Mayor Carlos Mayans sought to delay the sale and allow others to enter the bidding. But seeing the building in Fidelity’s hands is far preferable to seeing it further deteriorate.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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75 Comments
Bought for 330 thousand dollars . . . appraised by the county for 1.3 million.
Don’t know for sure, just guessing from what they value my house at every year.
This sale was good for the City and for downtown revitalization. The building will no longer be unused, a million dollars will be invested in rehab, and a downtown business will have a 1.3 million dollar reason to stay in the downtown area, instead of contributing to urban sprawl by moving out to the suburbs like another downtown Wichita bank. Implying that delaying the sale would have been a good decision is short-sighted. Delaying a sale could very well undo the deal – remember what happened with Bass Pro Shops?
It might be nice to see a small restaurant opened in the main floor. From what I am told there is a demand for good lunch locations by workers within walking distance; then on weekends Fidelity’s parking could be used. I could use another option for dinner when I attend events at Century II.
Unfortunately the Wichita City Government, better known as City Hall, let the Carnegie Building deteriorate over the past ten years or more making this local treasure unfit for public use. Just the same, the City should have buckled down and spent the money to rehabilitate this building into a usable condition.
Its obvious to anyone who uses the City Library across the street that its far too small for a city the size of Wichita. But as part of our City/County leaders’ “dumb down” policy, a new useless downtown arena will cost a 1/4 billion dollars or more in sales taxes from the taxpayers but no money is available for real needs of all taxpayers such as expanding our downtown library.
Sigh……..
I guess it is just a sign of ever sad times.
I knew that building as the Omnisphere. One year I led a group of the Young Astronaut program there.
Prior to that it was a library.
And now it will be an annex for a bank.
I would rather have seen the building maintained over the years and a public use found.
But money always wins.
JWink,Didn’t the city manager propose tearing down the current library and building one away from Century II? I remember all the uproar against the idea. It is a pretty building, it is historic, and it serves its purpose. I have not heard if it is still an option. If building a new library is an option I suggest building it where the old Watkins steel factory is. There is plenty of land there. Also make it like the Alford branch wide open and plenty of space.I agree Wichita needs a better library. It is sad that Topeka’s library is better than Wichita’s. Even WSU’s library is better than the downtown branch. If we build it across the river maybe the homeless would not try to sleep in it and go to it.JR,I don’t care that Fidelity bought it. At least it is going to be occupied.
JWink,The cost of the downtown arena is $186 million not a quarter of a billion dollars as you claim.
Sorry it is $184.5 million I mistyped.
Right, Keith.
And we know they’ll won’t be any cost over-runs, hehehe.
Hey, did you see the Koch brothers made the list of billionaires again this year?
Isn’t it great they’ll be getting a good deal on a skybox while you and I continue to pay extra sales taxes for events we won’t be able to afford to go to.
Socialize the costs, privatize the profit. That’s why the rich just keeping getting rich and the poor . . . well, who the hell cares about the poor anymore, right folks!
That is the tragedy of the commons pl. Socialize the costs, privatize the benefits. Same thing this state has going with water policy.
We are restoring entire TOWNS out here with preservation grant money. I thought there was even a special program for older Carnagie buildings. Dont you have any preservation people or grant writers in wichita? :) :)
Note to self…see about the market for veggies AND grant writing in wichita.
ProudLib, I’m glad the Koch brothers made the list of billionaires. It’s good to see that capitalism is alive and well in America, a place where smart people who work hard can get well-rewarded for their efforts. I’m glad I don’t live in a country where the Koch brothers would have to fork over their billions to a government that would redistribute it to a bunch of crybabies who are too lazy to get off their asses and make something of themselves.
Come on folks, stop “blaming” rich people for being successful. Sure, the Kochs might shell out big bucks to buy luxury boxes. That’s great. I’ll be fine paying a measly $10 bucks for my seat at the same Thunder game, and I’ll have just as good of a time as the Kochs. In the meantime, the Kochs, just like you and I, are paying the sales tax to build the arena.
“Socialize the costs, privatize the profit”???? I don’t get this. How is the Kochs PAYING for luxury boxes a profit for them????
Keith – they have already announced cost over-runs that they are papering over by shifting parking and road costs to other budgets. Add those in and the total gets to about 1/4 billion.
Wow Steve that was ……surreal.
The Kochs love you too! If there is anything bettter than getting poor working slobs to build a pet project complete with luxury boxes so you can look down at them from on high, it’s knowing some of those poor dumb slobs will be THANKFUL to climb the long steps up to see ya and begya to buy a hot dog!
Ben, the county can only spend on the arena what the tax collects. As it stands now, the tax is projected to raise just a hair over $200 million. Still a LONG way from a quarter billion. Jerry is just trying to exaggerate things to make it sound worse than it really is.
The initial budget for the arena was a very rough estimate. The county did not want to waste a lot of money planning a project the voters had not even approved. Remember, we did not vote on a specific arena project, we voted on whether we approved of the CONCEPT of a downtown arena. That’s all. Now that the project has been approved, they can nail down more accurate estimates on the specific project. Handling it in this manner is perfectly acceptable, ethical, and legal. The only cost overruns that can occur are those after a budget is finalized.
Thanks JR. That was…pointless. Can anyone get off their “poor working slob” pitty pot long enough to actually answer how PAYING for luxury boxes is profiting all these evil rich people?
Jeez, Steve, use your imagination. They may not literally make money on the deal, but they benefit at taxpayer expense, don’t they?
IMHO, billionaires don’t need massive subsidies to enjoy their hockey games and polo or whatever.
And btw, Steve, you might stop pleasuring yourself to the idea that anybody can be a Koch long enough to see how the Koch’s made their money.
Their DAD made the money.
So much for getting off their lazy asses.
BTW, the hardest working people I know are poor. They climb under buildings to fix pipes, climb on roofs in freezing weather to nail shingles, smooth out concrete with a carborundum block all day long.
You are such a tool . . .
ProudLib, the rich are paying the sales tax, too, just like you and I. And in nominal dollars, they are paying a hell of a lot more than you and I. They can afford luxury boxes, I can only afford my little 20″ seat, but I can’t hold that against them. The thousands they shell out goes to same place my $10 seat goes to–not some developer’s pocket, but the county. This money, as well as tax generated from development around the arena, helps to hold down other tax rates for ALL of us.
You want me to use my imagination? Well, I’ll stick to reality. Most of the anti-arena folks, yourself, Ben, Winky all seem like smart people, I don’t understand why you keep using your imagination when reality keeps smacking you in the face.
They pay more because they make more and have more to spend.
If that is such a bad deal, why don’t they trade places with the poor?
It’s common-knowledge that sales tax are the worst kind of regressive tax. You don’t have to buy a bigger yacht. You do have to buy bread and milk.
Not that hard to understand . . .
Speaking of imagination, it’s wild speculation on your part to imagine that the Arena is going to generate so much revenue that it will “hold down” tax rates.
It’ll be a white elephant that will require ever more taxation to keep alive, just like the airport, just like Exploration Place, just like the Warren Theater in Old Town, just like practically any massive public works project you can name . . .
Yeah, in the Koch’s case Fred Koch founded the company. But it was really a small operation until Charles took over. He has built it into the corporation it is today. He might have inherited some, but he has earned much, much more.
Why do you ignore stories like Bill Gates–a geeky college drop out who is now the richest guy in the US? He did it himself. Is he still a bad man because he is rich? No, and neither are the Kochs. Sure, poor people work hard too, and I admire the ones with a positive attitude who don’t complain. Who knows, they could be the next Bill Gates. But those who complain and think everything is always someone else’s fault or think they are being victimized by the “man” deserve no admiration. It is not the circumstances in which we are placed, but the spirit in which we face them that constitutes our character.
Spot on Pl
Sales taxes also are the only taxes that are practical to fund a project that is not popularly acclaimed like the arena. Do you imagine it would have passed if it was to be funded by personal property taxes?
Steve? How many “cheap” seats would fit in the space of one of those luxury boxes?Fewer seats available = more cost per seat; and more money for the promoter.
ProudLib, the airport is self-sustaining and the new terminal is being paid for with no local tax money. The Old Town Warren is in a TIF district, so any tax money it receives is money that would otherwise have not been generated if it had not existed. Only Exploration Place out of the ones you listed has directly received any tax money from the city or county.
JR, this is a common misconception about how arenas work. It is not fact. Luxury boxes generate a substantial amount more than the number of regular seats that would occupy the same area.
Believe it or not, luxury boxes actually hold down the cost of regular seats. In a way, the evil rich people who buy evil luxury boxes are actually subsidizing seats for the rest of us!! Ironic, huh?
Tool, er I mean Steve?
Gates gives lotsa money to charity. I gotta give him that. That said,
Do you have any idea how man people he screwed over to get there?Wal Mart LOVES people who think like you Steve. They don’t treat ‘em very well or pay ‘em much. But they do love them
Yeah and Exploration place is the only one of them that is worth a damn. What is good and what is profitable arenot always the same thing.
JR, do you have any idea how many government social programs there are that screw money out of the American taxpayer? Welfare, medicaid, etc., etc…
I don’t know how many people Gates screwed. I do know he is a human being, just like the rest of us. How many people have you screwed, JR? I sure know I’ve done some things I’m not proud of. Hey, instead of pointing out the flaws in other people, we should remove all the ones in ourselves, first.
I don’t shop at Wal-Mart. But the people who work there, if they feel like they are being mistreated or underpaid, can work someplace else, you know. No one is holding a gun to their head forcing them to work in those conditions. Target’s probably hiring. I once had a job I hated and where I was underappreciated. But I made a decision to change my life. I quit, I went back to school, and now things are better. When will people realize the only things holding them back are themselves?
“What is good and what is profitable are not always the same thing.”
Well said, JR. Just because something does not make money does not mean it is a bad thing! We actually agree on something! Exploration Place is great, but it’s not self-supporting. The arena will be great, and it probably won’t be self-supporting. I love Cowtown, but it’s not self-supporting. JR, I’m glad you are not on this bandwagon of people in this town who believe that any project worth doing has to be profitable.
I can’t be the only one here who remembers the old library building as a LIBRARY. It was beautiful inside. I spent a lot of time in the children’s section when I was small and can still close my eyes, see the room, smell the special scent of the books, and feel the chairs that were just my size.
Is the mural of John Brown still there?
How long ago was it a library? I remember in only as the Omnisphere.
I don’t remember seeing a John Brown mural. I voulnteered there in 1985.
It was a library from 1915-1967 when the current one was built. For old pictres of the library and of Wichita go to http://www.wichitaphotos.org.
The mural is not there anymore. I think it was moved to the Southwest National Bank. I am not sure. If you can’t tell I am a history major at WSU and Wichita history is my favorite. If you have anymore guestions on the history of Wichita I will try to answer them.
Keith, since the library is on the national register of historic places, Fidelity can’t just gut the building? When they renovate it they will have to maintain its historic integrity, correct?
“Is he still a bad man because he is rich?”
I love the way the religious capitalists (faith-based economics) ALWAYS and WITHOUT FAIL willfully misinterprete my criticisms with this straw man.
I didn’t say the rich were bad or even undeserving of wealth. My parents have a vacation house in the Bahamas and they are there right now, in fact.
I said it is not fair that the rich should benefit at taxpayer’s expense. Welfare for the poor, I support. Welfare FOR THE RICH, I oppose.
And that’s what the arena is, welfare for the rich.
Stop misinterpreting my statements–I don’t hate the rich or want them gone. I admire most of them and believe they generally provide value to society.
I think middle-class and poor (who DO pay a lot of taxes such as sales tax) shouldn’t have to bankroll projects that benefit the rich.
Steve,I think that they need to keep the interior somewhat like it was when it was a library. But I wonder how much the interior changed when it became the Omnisphere. Also I don’t think that the Eaton kept all the origional interior when it was changed to apartments. Of course I could be wrong.
Steve,Fred Koch made his fortune building oil refineries for Stalin. To show his gratitude, he co-founded the Jack Ash Society, and cheated Indian reservations out of millions in oil revenue.
RD,Yes, I remember the old library well. I spent a lot of time there as a child and beyond.
As I look back at this thread, I don’t see how the Kochs became involved in this conversation. I have visited socially with both Charles and Bill, separately, and find them to be agreeable to talk with. Their names have been raised as “strawmen” in this thread for no reason.
Jed, with all due respect, you are partially correct in that their father, Fred C. Koch, after graduating from college in about 1925 did help design oil refineries in Russia and Europe. However, Joseph Stalin, although a little older than Fred C. Koch, Sr. was then struggling to gain power in the Russian bureacracy. During the years that Fred C. Koch worked in Russia and Europe, Lenin died but Stalin still had to overcome Leon Trotsky to gain substantial power. Its difficult to say but would be interesting to know which Russian leaders at that time promoted Russia’s petroleum industry. In any case, the Nazi war machine and Luftwaffe eventually bombed refineries which Fred Koch had helped design.
As a reminder, Russia took the brunt of the German invasion during the terrible winter of 1941-42 which gave the U.S. and Great Britain time to prepare for war and the eventual invasion of Europe and Germany. True, Stalin was a very tough military leader but think of what would have happened otherwise particularly if Russia had no oil for its war machinery.
In regard to your comment about founding the “Jack Ash” Society, I believe you meant the Birch Society, an organization to promote the American free enterprise system back when it was being attacked by socialism/communism.
In regard to your comment about “cheating Indian reservations” out of oil revenues, I am a long-time historian of Shawnee Indian history. The Shawnees’ neighbors in Oklahoma, the Osage Indian nation profited tremendously from the oil found on their reservation in the 1920’s. They and all Oklahomans eventually honored E.J. Marland, the early Oklahoma oil developer and resident of Ponca City, by electing him Governor of Oklahoma in the 1940’s.
JWink–
The Koch’s got introduced into the discussion when I said it is not fair that average people have to pay for an arena that will benefit billionaire Koch brothers.
That’s not the straw man.
The straw man was when the right-wingers came back with “why do you hate rich people,” which is not anywhere close to what I was saying.
PL,Having worked for the Koch outfit, and learning what the word “cutthroat” actually means, I would, if given a choice, refuse to support them in any way shape or form. The two brothers have been fighting each other for years. They are high-strung kids with alot of money. Just what Wichita needs to further enhance the cities reputation . . . right.
ProudLib: Now as I look back on this thread, I agree with you, the strawman was “why do you hate rich people?”
The pro-arena cheerleaders use bait and switch, also known as the old shell game, to spin the proposed downtown arena since they know there is absolutely NO logical reason to build it other than to remove the 1/4 billion dollars from the billfolds of large groups (Wichita police officers, firemen, teachers etc.) and give it to the small group who will profit from its construction.
Meantime the list of real Wichita needs for which there are no funds available keeps getting longer and longer. I say SHAME ON arena supporters.
JWink,For the last time the cost of the arena is not $250 million dollars it is $184.5 million.
Keith,
I’ll bet you 50 dollars for charity that after the arena is built, the final cost will be closer to 250 million than 184.5 million.
You don’t think cost over-runs are going to be closer to 30 percent than to 10 percent?
ProudLib,I will take the “bet”. The problem I have is JWink keeps on sayinng it is $250 million dollars wich is misleading . He does not look into facts. When I win this “bet” I don’t expect the money to go to my charity because you anti arena people will come up with an excuse to not fulfill your side of the deal. Just like you have come up with excuses for the downtown arena.
Well, you’re assuming that the arena gets built in a more timely fashion than, say, the Kellogg construction . . .
So we may both be retired in Florida when they finish this thing, but I have made a log of this bet and will get back to you when the final numbers come in.
And just so we’re clear on the terms of the bet, you say that the project will come in at cost of 184.5.
I say it will be closer to a quarter billion (250 million).
So if the final arena cost after construction is 217.5 or LESS, you win, and I pay your charity 50 dollars.
If however the cost after construction is 217.6 or MORE, I win and you pay my charity 50 dollars.
And, you sir, are on.
If it’s between 217,500,000 and 217,600,000, we can call that a tie.
Not good odds on that happening though, heh.
ProudLib, first of all, the county CANNOT spend any more on the arena than what the sales tax collects. PERIOD. Enough of the cost overrun crap. You don’t know what you are talking about. Projections are that the tax will generate about $200 million. That’s it ProudLib. That’s all they can spend. PERIOD. Not a penny more. How many times do we have to talk about this before you get the idea??? Again, THEY CAN ONLY SPEND WHAT THE TAX COLLECTS!!!
Secondly, no one has yet answered my question on how the rich are benefiting for something they HAVE TO PAY FOR. Since you love to bash the Koch brothers, tell me how, for God’s sakes, they get richer from SPENDING money on luxury boxes??!!
Steve, your naivete is truly touching.
First, the costs. They’ll be overruns. Then the county will say, “we can let another 20 million stop this important project; we’ve already sunk 200 million into it.”
Look at how much the war in Iraq was going to cost, and how much it’s cost so far. Look at how much the Wolf Creek Nuclear plant was going to cost, and how much it did cost. Decades later the average Wichitan was paying hundreds and thousands of dollars a year more for electricity for a project that had been guaranteed to drive DOWN costs.
Look at the Brooks Landfill. It wasn’t going to leak. It will never leak. Don’t worry about it. Can’t happen.
It leaked.
The costs to clean it up are high, and that was one reason they shut it down.
Exploration Place too has never been self-sustaining as was originally promised.
Second,The Kochs benefit because an arena has huge fixed costs. Fixed costs are the costs that the owners pay whether anybody uses it or not.
I and everybody else in the county have to pay those costs. I, being somebody who chooses not to watch grown-men chase each other around on ice skates, will probably never go to the arena.
BUT I STILL HAD TO HELP PAY FOR IT ON MY LITTLE OLD SALARY.
Meanwhile, the Kochs who not only can afford to go to events at the arena but can afford a tax-payer subsidized sky box, also pay too.
But they don’t pay nearly as much as they benefit.
If the 200 million dollars to build the arena were fully passed on to the people who use it (like the Kochs’), they wouldn’t pay for it.
That’s why no private developer would touch a project like this in this community.
But if the rich backers (like the Koch’s) can get ordinary suckers like you and me to build it FOR THEM, why, yes, they’re all for that.
That’s what modern capitalism is all about–socialize the costs, privatize the benefits.
ProudLib, your ignorance is truly touching. I won’t argue that there may be cost overruns, but these have ALREADY been built into the arena budget. A $7 million contingency (set aside for overruns) on top of $20 million for parking garages that may not be needed are part of the $184.5 million initial estimate for arena construction. Then consider that the tax will likely generate about $200 million and the county has roughly $40 million ALREADY set aside should unforseen issues arise. ProudLib, you also need to understand the legal issues as well, THE COUNTY CANNOT SPEND ANY MORE ON THE ARENA THAN WHAT THE TAX GENERATES. I don’t know how many times I have to say this. It’s like I’m talking to a wall. Again, the county cannot (legally) spend any more on the arena than what the tax generates.
Repeat after me, THE COUNTY CANNOT SPEND ANY MORE ON THE ARENA THAN WHAT THE TAX GENERATES. It would be illegal for them to do so. ProudLib, if you are going to participate in this discussion, please be aware of the legal and economic FACTS that surround it. There is no place for your rhetoric.
Again, THE COUNTY CANNOT SPEND ANY MORE ON THE ARENA THAN WHAT THE TAX GENERATES. It would be illegal for them to do so. ILLEGAL. They cannot do it. Period. End of discussion.
Again, please answer my question. How do the Kochs benefit from the arena??? How do any rich people get richer from the arena by BUYING luxury boxes??? You refuse to answer the question. Just more rhetoric about how rich people are screwing the rest of us–but no facts to back it up.
ProudLib, I went to the car show a couple of months ago (as well as a whole bunch of other “rich” people) at Century II. Thanks for all the money you spent to build it. There’s no way I could have built it myself. I heard Sesame Street live was here the other day. I’m not rich enough to afford kids, but all the millionaires in Wichita who can afford them and the price of admission appreciated your help to build the Coliseum, I’m sure. Ah, democracy and capitalism, I love it.
Attendance at a Thunder hockey game awhile back: 8,000+. Wow, there’s a whole lot of “rich” people in Wichita who can afford to go to these games.
I almost forgot about Rascal Flats. They SOLD OUT the Coliseum the other night. Holy Hell, Wichita must be the Beverly Hills of the Midwest!!!!
Ya know one of my pet peeves, when people find out I’m a Thunder season ticket holder, they always try to hit me up for money. It’s like I won the lottery or something.
Now I know, I know, being a college student, I already have the rep of being “rich” beyond anyone’s wildest dreams, but the added pressure from having the means to mingle with the upper crust of society at a rowdy minor league hockey game is becoming burdensome.
When I graduate maybe I can shake off a little of that image and just go back to being a mild mannered accountant.
Steve – the County won’t spend the extra money “on the arena”; they will spend it on other things like parking and operating subsidies. That is how they will dodge the requirement you refer to.
Ben, parking and operating subsidies is part of the arena budget and part of the tax collections. Out of the $184.5 million originally projected, the actual arena building was estimated to cost $70 million. Parking, street improvements, land acquisition, anything and everything associated with the project is to be paid for out of the tax collections. To say it another (more exacting) way, the county can only spend on the entire arena project what the tax generates.
AH now I get it!Steve is an accountant!
No wonder he likes people with lots of money. Us poor working slobs generally don’t need to avail ourselfves the services of accountants.
Steve? You get to COUNT their money. Only if you are clever or devious do ya get to keep it.
Speaking of devious. A Thunder season ticket holder? You clearly got money to burn!
8000+ at a Thunder game doesn’t sound right either. Last I heard a THunder game was a pretty lonely place.
You mention the events at Century II Garden show a awhile back 10$. So I couldn’t go.
Oh and “Blah blah it is illegal for them to do so?” That never stopped anything Steve let alone a tax.
Do you think the arena would have passed if it were to be financed by a property or luxury tax?
I’ll be for your arena Steve. But since Iam paying for it I kinda feel like if there is an event I’d like to see that I could get a ticket I could afford.
Steve – they have already ‘blue-penciled’ those costs out of the arena budget. They seem to be assuming that they won’t need them. So, later on, when they find they don’t have needed parking and they run out of operating money; will they just shutter the building? I dount it.
I have heard that statement (county can only spend on the entire arena project what the tax generates) a million times – I just don’t believe it. I put it in the same catagory as “The check is in the mail” and “Of course I’ll respect you in the morning.”
Time will tell … I just hope that when the county starts saying that they need more money for these “unforeseen” costs you join with me in saying “NO”
JR, you clearly missed the point of my sarcastic posts regarding the endless rantings of anti-arena folks who claim only rich people go to arena events. I’ll stop with the cleverness and just go straight to the point.
Thunder games are full of middle class, hard working folks just like you and I. I have never seen the likes of Charles Koch or Phil Ruffin at these games, or Rascal Flats concerts for that matter. I may never. The point is, if you believe only rich people go to arena events then you’ll be disappointed to hear that there is no Santa Claus. Wake up, grow up, and get real. Hello, I am accounting student working on my degree while I intern part-time at an accounting firm. I’m not rich, but I do have goals and aspirations for my life. I refuse to sit on some pitty-pot and feel sorry for myself while I stereotype everyone else who does the things I wish I could do. If you want to spend your money on something else Friday night, fine, but don’t get upset at others for spending their own hard-earned money doing something at a public building we ALL pay for as a duty of living in a democratic society.
Your claims that Thunder games are poorly attended only proves my point that anti-arena folks don’t know what they are talking about or use out-of-date facts to back out-of-date arguments. While the past few years Thunder attendance has been lower, this year it is averaging over 5,000 a game. Several games this year have broken the 8,000 mark and several more broken 7,000. The team is currently undertaking several promotions to SELL OUT next Saturday’s game against Oklahoma City. No, JR, Thunder games are not lonely places.
So you couldn’t go to the garden show…plenty of other people did. Get off yourself for awhile and start thinking about what is good for the city as a whole. Some Wichitans are very, very selfish people. Being part of a community means that sometimes you put the community’s needs ahead of your own. I haven’t used a city park in God knows how long but I’m GLAD my tax money supports them.
No, just because it is illegal for the county to spend non-sales tax dollars on the arena project does not mean it will not. But it is HIGHLY unlikely they will carelessly throw caution to the wind and flagrantly break the law, especially considering the scrutiny given this project. Your distrust in county officials, especially on legal matters, is without any basis. Do you distrust county officials because they have flagrantly broken countless laws before??? Or do you merely distrust them because of some preconceived notion that they are bad people based on no factual evidence whatsoever? It sure seems like the latter.
Finally, on what factual evidence do you base your belief that you cannot afford a ticket to any event at the new arena??? Tickets to Oklahoma City’s hockey team are comparable to Wichita’s even though its team plays in a brand new arena. Concert promoters say their ticket prices are based on market factors and not building rent.
So yeah, if you can’t go to anything that’s fine. But myself, even though I probably make much less than you do AND have the added cost of college, will. Don’t blame me for being “rich.”
I will agree with Steve on one thing – most of the Thunder fans are blue-collar. I don’t know what their numbers have been this year – I will ask my son how many were at the game they took the grandkids to for their birthdays.
Ben, they don’t have needed parking?? There are over twice the number of parking spaces downtown than at the Coliseum, the difference is we will have to walk a little farther to some of them. When people around here FINALLY realize that walking is good for you and that having a parking spot 10 feet from the door is not a Constitutional right, we’ll be okay. Realizing this might be painful in the short term, but as the saying goes, no pain, no gain.
The county will not find out it needs parking garages and spend money to build them. The lazy people of Wichita will find out walking won’t kill them. They will have to. A healthier population is better for the city as a whole anyway.
The problem with otherwise intelligent and well-meaning anti-arena folks are that they don’t seem to believe anything based in fact (the county can’t legally spend any more on the arena project than what the tax collects) but do believe anything based entirely on speculation (only rich people go to events, you won’t be able to afford tickets, the sales tax won’t raise the $184 million, etc). Geez, guys, let me guess, you believe the halocaust never happened, the moon landing was a hoax, and Elvis is still alive. For your own good, please back up your arguments with facts or you’ll just look like extremists crying wolf. You’re smarter than that.
My son tells me the Col was 1/8 full for the Thunder game they went to.
As for your false condescending comments “they don’t seem to believe anything based in fact” I’ve been dealing with fact for a half-century. Tell me this: when this thing is built and they THEN find they have shortfalls what will they do? Close it?
By the way: Elvis is dead, we DID walk the moon, and the holocaust happened.
And, by the way, the TEMPORARY tolls on the Turnpike are still there.
As for all that parking that is there – you are assuming that it will be opened to the public. Much of it is not.
The following link shows the average attendance of each team in the CHL, compiled from league statistics. I sincerely hope this finally puts to rest the common anti-arena misconception that no one attends hockey games at the Coliseum.
http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/attendance.html?leagueid=12&seasonid=903
The following link is to the Thunder’s home page. Near the middle of the page you will find a ticker which shows the number of tickets sold for next Saturday’s game (March 18). At 1:45 this afternoon (Monday), 6772 tickets have been sold.
http://www.wichitathunder.com/
I’m sure it’s just a stunning coincidence that everybody’s property valuations went up about 8 percent this year.
Ben, if the Coliseum was an “1/8″ full, that would be 1195 people there (9560/8=1195). There has not been a Thunder game attended by less than 3000 people this season. Please see the link above–statistics are always more accurate than heresay. Average attendance has been over 5400.
Ben, you can’t have cost-overruns AFTER the arena is built. Cost overruns only occur DURING the construction phase. I will give you the fact that operating shortfalls do not fall under the legal protection of the sales tax ballot, if that’s what you’re talking about. However, operating shortfalls are not cost-overruns.
Turnpike tolls were never legally required to expire.
Private parking lots and garages downtown ARE indeed open for use by the general public during nights and weekends, when most arena events will take place. Most of them are free at these times.
Steve, I was born here and have lived my whole life here.
People in this town DO feel like they have a Constitutional right to park at the door. Do I think that is a good thing. No. Do I think it is likely to ever change. Again no. The parking issue should have been resolved before this was ever voted on. This means one of two things will ultimately happen:
The arena attendance will suffer and the parking problem will have to be solved with more money orThe arena will fail.
8,000 folks at a hockey game? The Wranglers almost never have numbers like that unless they are giving something away! Hockey more popular than baseball?? This town just gets worse and worse!
They must be having another 5 dollar ticket night.
Since I wasn’t at the game in question I don’t know for sure.
However, as to “you can’t have cost-overruns AFTER the arena is built. Cost overruns only occur DURING the construction phase.” – actually you CAN. They had promised that a significant portion of the tax revenues raised would be used for parking and operating loss reserves. Instead, due to cost overruns in the Construction phase they are wiping out those reserves. They have already acknowledged that fact. So, when losses accrue they will not have the loss reserve promised. And, they will then come back to the taxpayer to pay that.
JR, I’m with you, it’s not a good thing that the city has this attitude against walking. It’s also not a good thing that we also seem to just give in to laziness and accept it as a fact of life. We need to change the things that aren’t good. But we can’t change it unless we try. Giving them a reason to change by transforming downtown into a pedestrian friendly area and opening their eyes to the way things can be and ought to be is both honorable and necessary.
I will get on Wichitans’ case for many things, but I do have faith that in time, attitudes can change. There might be some people who at first refuse to go to arena events because they have to walk more than 10 feet, but I feel that in time they will ditch their lame excuse and get off their lazy butt.
Just giving in and accepting the status quo should not be an option.
Ben, the loss reserve still exists even with your phantom cost overruns (you must have missed the post addressing estimates vs. budgets). An estimated $10 million still remains as a loss reserve. The loss reserve was never billed as being able to cover ALL losses EVER incurred by the arena. Instead, it was there to HELP offset any losses the arena could incur over the next 20 years.
You are again twisting the words of the arena campaign to say something it never said.
Here is what the downtown arena campaign ACTUALLY said regarding the operating reserve: “Any tax revenue or interest on invested arena tax receipts that’s remaining when the arena opens will become the operating reserve, and will be used only for future major maintenance needs of the arena or to cover anticipated operating deficits. Using the sales tax this way will offset the use of future property taxes for the arena.”
I pasted this straight from the still-active voteyea website.
No, Ben, there were no promises that operating losses would be completely covered by this reserve fund. And again, willfully increasing the scope of the project does not constitute a cost overrun. Transferring money from parking garages to a second concourse is not a cost overrun. As it currently stands, the only line-item costing more than original estimates are the architects fees. Current estimates show land acquisition costs will be LOWER than original estimates.
Operating losses do not constitute cost overruns. Sedgwick County can use non-sales tax money to offset operating losses, just as it has with the Coliseum. However, all funds associated with BUILDING the arena, including peripheral projects such as street improvements, have to be paid for out of sales tax money. This is the law.
Non sales tax money cannot be used to build the arena. They can only spend what the tax generates. That’s it, folks. You might disagree, but your opinion has no basis in fact or in law. Why can’t you understand that?
Ben already answered your question, Steve. We understand it just fine. We don’t believe it based on past experience.
Stop going hysterical on us here.
“Repeat after me, THE COUNTY CANNOT SPEND ANY MORE ON THE ARENA THAN WHAT THE TAX GENERATES.”
Heh, right. These are the guys that WRITE the laws. If they want to change it, guess what, they change it.
Unbelievable.
So in a couple of years after they destroy blocks of historic buildings and move Mom and Pop buisness to make way for flat, sterile parking lots, we’ll see who was right, you or us.
Instead of having two money-wasting under-utilized big ugly halls (Century 2 and the Coliseum), we’ll have three . . .
ProudLib, you don’t understand how the legal process works.
Unbelievable.
They don’t just up and change laws whenever they want to, and especially not this particular law. It was a ballot question. If they want to change it, then they will either have to change STATE law (not county law) or they will have to convince the “90%” of Sedgwick County citizens who are now against the arena (as Winkleman says) with another public vote.
I don’t understand on what “past experience” you are basing your beliefs. When have current county officials flagrantly broken state laws regarding ballot initiatives????? When have they spent gobs more on heavily scrutinized public projects than they were legally able to do so?????
Gentlemen, blind mistrust is just as foolish as blind trust. I admit these guys are capable of anything, but it is HIGHLY unlikely that they would wrongfully misappropriate arena funds, especially considering there is a citizen committee overseeing all arena expenditures. In addition, there is NO evidence of past inappropriate behavior.
If you think I’m going hysterical it’s because it seems like I’m trying to have a discussion with a wall. Some of you guys have no facts or evidence to back up your claims and you totally disregard actual facts presented to back up pro-arena arguments. Your minds are not open to discussion and you will seem like you will NEVER accept anything as truth other than what you already believe.
Only two historic buildings lie in the arena’s footprint, not blocks. And they will likely NOT be destroyed. Where are these “Mom and Pop” businesses, too, you speak of? Most structures due to be condemned are run-down, dilapidated eyesores and empty lots.
Whether Century II is ugly is in the eye of the beholder, but we both agree that the Coliseum is God-awful. Underutilized, however, is not so much subjective. The Coliseum hosts about 300 events a year. Century II has just a few less. Obviously, underutilized is not a good adjective for either of these buildings.
Okay, Steve, I hope you’re right.
We’ll see.
ProudLib,The arena is scheduled to open in 2009. I expect it to be on time or maybe a little behind due to the weather. Of course if we have winters like this one the construction would be done sooner.
Trusting government to always do right is incredibly stupid. Trusting government to always do wrong doesn’t prove a higher level of intelligence, either.
Come on guys, you have to be realistic. There is a citizen oversight committee watching every penny the county spends on the arena. This is the most controversial public project ever undertaken in Sedgwick County. Elected officials are putting their jobs and reputations on the line. Hired officials face jail time as well should they do wrong. Our sensationalistic local media is ready to pounce at the first sign of wrongdoing with the arena. Karl Peterjohn is undoubtedly getting off on the possibility something could go wrong.
Wake up. Grow up. Government is not harmless and innocent, but it is just as much not the boogeyman.
Sedgwick County has done nothing wrong, illegal, or inappropriate in similar matters since recent officials have been in charge (I mean, I have no idea if it broke any laws in the 1920s).
Why the blind mistrust??