We all know that Kansas is a red state. Still, it is striking how much redder it is than the rest of the nation, at least about Iraq. A KWCH-12 Eyewitness News-Wichita Eagle poll last week found that 59 percent of Kansans think the decision to invade Iraq was correct. Nationally, 57 percent of Americans think that the United States made a mistake invading Iraq. Kansans also don’t believe that President Bush purposefully misled Americans about the threat of WMDs in Iraq — 61 percent said he gave an honest account based on intelligence. About the only crack in Kansans’ support was in Bush’s handling of the war — 56 percent rated it fair or poor, up from 40 percent two years ago.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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90 Comments
Kansas is behind the trend of national opinion? No news that. Most kansans are happily stupid folk. They don’t like questions about issues. Thinking is not something theydo or encourage. It gets in the way of doing their job or getting others to work for them.
JR
Since you are a thinking person this won’t be too hard. When a poll oversamples/undersamples Democrats/Republicans by ten points it is designed to give a false impression. Thinking people know better.
I know Kansas is full of uninformed and out of touch hillbillies but c’mon. Are they all illiterate or just all endlessly stuck on stupid?
The only news Kansans can get is mainstream media. Is it any wonder why people believe the way they do? When the only views you get on talk radio come from rush, neal, glenn and the other righties, is it any wonder people believe the way they do?
The happily misinformed Kansans. They can watch reality tv and complain about taxes. We are happy!
We need radio free Kansas! Underground newspapers. Anything that will open the eyes of Kansans.
Ignorance can be cured… stupid is for a lifetime!
When the polls are not in your favor everyone is stupid, when they are it is just further proof of how stupid Bush is…
Sounds like no matter what the polls say you will all think whatever you want to.
When the polls were in favor of this war you did not support it.
The only difference now is that the public has had about 2 years worth of BS fed to them by Katie Couric and the rest of the bunch in the media.
It is simple propaghanda. When all you show and display is negativity then that is what people will become beaten down with.
If everyday the media showed all the good things happening there instead of just the IED’s do you honestly think the polls would still be down?
I think that if the media could just land at the airport in Baghdad without the military escort, the screwtape approach, etc., safely, then they would be able to report on more of the “good things.”
Just getting there safely would surely help the President, doncha think? ;)
The problem has far less to do with the media than it has to do with President Bush’s policies in Iraq (i.e., not enough security, no direct foreign investment, porous borders leaking terrorists in/out freely, etc.: it’s a very long list).
The MSM paranoia just kills me. Like during sweeps periods the MSM could actually avoid the temptation of busting a big ‘ol “the NYT is the ringleader in a conspiracy!” story.
Damoon,This war is taking on the same vestiges the Viet Nam war did. The baggage is real, the deaths are real, the plan is non-existant, Bush is now saying we will be there past 2008, and the end is nowhere in sight.
If this continues, how long before there is rioting in the streets of America over this travesty? Will that mean another Kent state is possible? This administration got us into something we have no business being in. If we are supposed to be peace loving country, what are we doing going to war all the time. Something is not right here, and the problem starts and ends with the Bush administration, polls or no polls.
Nathan,
30-60 dead folks per day in Iraq tends to push aside the news reporting on the ribbon-cutting ceremony for a new soccer field.
As for blaming the ‘MSM’, please. They’ve been the major shovellers of the happy talk and rosy prospects that the more sober-minded among us rejected all along. It’s always funny to watch Wingnuts, who relentlessly bully the media, whine about how victimized and marginalized they have been.
It’s sad for Nathan that Bush’s delusional assessment of Iraq isn’t convincing to the majority of the American public, but there it is. And given Bush’s statement that we’ll be in Iraq at least until 2009 (We ARE building permanent bases, by the way), I think his numbers may even begin to drop here, in Kansas.
Check out the link: considering the amount of concrete we’re pouring on bases in Iraq, looks like we intend to stay awhile.
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/breaking_news/14151455.htm
Walker, you are forgetting one big difference between viet nam and iraq.
The draft.
When we finally have a draft, (and you know we will) when the young yellow elephants go marching off to war, (yeah right) there will be demonstrations (riots?) in the streets. The revolution will be televised… unless censorship follows illegal wiretapping and domestic surveilance.
Otherwise, the chickenhawk republicans and fat cat democrats and their kids will follow their leaders’ wishes from the comfort and safety of their BMW’s and lazy boy recliners while surfing through Fux News and CNBC.
Without a draft, we can hardly finish iraq, much less fearless leader’s next little project, iran. Look for a draft if the r’s maintain control of all three branches of government after the 06 elections. After all, democracy is on the march, so onward christian soldiers!
These neocons learned a lot from their nixon-vietnam years, and it wasnt in the military. They learned about domestic survailance (read wiretapping without a warrant) and THIS TIME, dammit, they are not going to be caught flat footed with protesters hiding behind that g.d. piece of paper formerly known as the constitution.
I think they are gearing up for the squashing of potential of demonstrations with all the domestic survailance of “peace” groups like the quakers.
And with haliburton now building “secret” detention centers in the u.s. I guess they are planning on overflow from gitmo. Ya know, gotta keep those pesky peacenics out of sight and out of the media.
King george and his imperial congress. No wonder nathan is having fits. It’s hard for a bush pimp…even out here.
Let’s not abandon the Iraq people now. I am heartened to see that common sense Kansans can see through the hyperbole of the MSM.
If Iraqis are dying every day at the hands of insurgents who have the goal of throwing Iraq into anarchy, just think how many more will die if we abandon them. We owe them more than that.
We promised them freedom. They should get it.
Yeah outlander, and we were promised flowers and cheers and greetings as liberators. We were promised the war would last days, weeks, maybe months, but certainly not years. We were promised “mission accomplished” almost three years ago.
I am not sure we promised the irqais freedom as much as we promised them democracy. It might have been the dreaded double d (diebold democracy), but we promised them democracy and implied it would bring freedom. Looks like we cant deliver on either.
In the south, they call that “letting your alligator mouth overload your tadpole ass”.
Sounds like bushco has lots of broken promises to reckon with. Maybe the preznit can put his presidential library in wichita as a reward for blind loyalty.
Kansas may be shrub’s last refuge, but if I were king george, I would be looking over my shoulder for pissed off big farmers. They dont like being pulled off the federal teat!
“We promised them freedom. They should get it.”–Outlander
I assume you’re down with the American blood paid, so that’s a given.
Who pays the $$$?
We didn’t tell the Iraqis that we would bring democracy (unless it gets tougher than we thought). We told them we would bring democracy.
Our honor and credibility as a nation is on the line. Do we go in, put civilians at risk and then abandon them when it gets politically difficult? What does that say to the world?
I hate war. But some things are worth standing for.
Sure, but who pays for it?
Outlander?
Folks on YOUR side maintain that the insurgency in Iraq is small and in its death throes. We also hear about how the overwhelming pluraltiy of Iraquis want what we are bringing them.
Ok………..
Last I knew the will and power of what say…..11,000,000 people can win out against say……1500 insurgents. Feel free to correct my numbers Outlander.
IF this is what this overwhelming majority wants? I THINK they can get it done without us.
But I aint even gonna go any further as to that.
That isn’t the goal and it never was.
So spare us the “don’t abandon the poor Iraquis” crap. This isn’t what the war is about. It never was.
Following outlanders logic:
The killing and destruction will continue until you accept democracy!!
Sounds like:
The beatings and layoffs will continue until morale improves!!
How is our current method of bringing democracy to iraq working for them and for us? Do you think we should keep doing the things that dont work, just do them harder and faster? Could there be another way that might actually be successful?
Do we really want to be successful or is this just the implementation of the haliburton relief act?
Once again, be careful what you ask for. The palestinians used democracy to install hamas. What happens if the iraqis vote for someone we dont like?
Will the killing just continue until democracy improves?
Nathan, what facts do you have on the good things happening in Iraq? You’re a reservist, right? Although you aren’t active duty at present, you should have more opportunity than most of us to speak with those who’ve had the experience and have the personal knowledge. Have you? If so, how many? Are they all in agreement?
I’ve spoken with U.S. servicemen home from Iraq who have said the only “rebuilding” going on there is U.S. bases. Even if they were building schools, what child is safe in a country with daily bombings? How would you fare in a country with clean drinking water amost non-existent and electricity available for only a minimal time each day? And if there was rebuilding going on, how do you think daily death and destruction weighs against that? How many people will never have the opportunity to put what’s rebuilt to use? At what cost of lives is all this worth it? They didn’t ask us to bring them democracy, we’ve forced it on them, along with all the terror and death that now accompanies it.
Outlander, at what point did the focus of the occupation of Iraq become to bring the people democracy? I don’t recall that being Bush’s first reason. Wasn’t there something about WMDs? Seems like democracy came later, down the list at number 3 or 4. Or maybe 17. Whatever, it’s certainly an acceptable excuse for many.
If you truly believe this is why we’re there, you’ve been asleep for the past 5 years.
Negativism never accomplished anything.
Outlander,
Blind happy willfull stupidity accomplishes MUCH! Just not much good.
Why do bush supporters always confuse being realistic with negativity? I mean, we can already see where UNREALISTIC POSITIVITY has gotten us.
Remember the 12 steps outlander. The first one is admitting there is a problem. There can be no recovery without that admission.
If “optimistic person comes to work here everyday” in the yellow rug room of the white house, why isnt all that positive presidential sunshine working?
Get used to it.As long as the U.S. Military Industrial Complex is running the show we will always have a boogyman. Until they are brought under control we’ll always have wars & killings.Until the American people rise up and bring the U.S. Military Industrial Complex under control, We’LL be blessed with another Bushytail and all his tailwaggers.Eisenhauer warned us this would happen and it has.On a different train of thought Ross warned us about the “large sucking sound” when jobs left the U.S.A. and it has.
War is terrible, we are not doing the best we can, Bush made a lot of mistakes, many unfortunant lives have been lost (one is too many), nothing wrong questioning why we are there in the first place.
But I still support the war.
JoeI think your supportin a looser !
I agree with you guy.
Reminds me of the John Prine line where he says his grandfather “voted for Eisenhauer ’cause Lincoln won the war”.
Looks like Ike knew, as a smart military guy, what a threat would be created with the military industrial complex.
You support your team no matter what. If they lose or win, I’ll still support our troops and the war. Call me an American I guess.
If this Iraq War becomes a huge endless blunder, then let it be. At least I’ll pat our soliders and tell them I supported them 100% through the thick and thin.
I’m not supporting the war for the sake of Bush or politics. I support the war because I believe in America.
Think about what Joe Williams just said. Let it echo in your head.
We’re screwed.
Hehe CF. This is the same joe who complains about tax dollars being wasted on schools.
I guess supporting the team is free forever! No tax dollars wasted there, oh no. Never.
Or maybe he thinks guns are a better investment than the people who fire them.
We dont need no stinkin’ schools if we just use the kids for cannon fodder!
Still no comments on shrinking enlistments, expanding entanglements, and the looming need for a draft?
ksfarmgrrl,
Personally, I don’t see how George is going to be able to square that circle. He can’t reinstate the draft: political suicide. And besides, that would bring more Democrats into the military, which is very much to the contrary of the current Republican self-selection behind the military’s ideological composition. The GOP thinks it owns the military, and a draft would dilute that.
But W also can’t keep grinding down the military at the current pace. Lots of folks are on their third tours of duty, and many, many senior officers and NCO’s aren’t re-enlisting. This is why I always mention the possibility of the Army breaking under the strain; it’s a real problem.
So, I don’t know. Can’t say what the most plausible course of action is. If W and whoever comes after him really wants to try to enforce some new Pax Americana / Starship Troopers vision on American, they’ll have to reinstate the draft, and find some way of doing so that doesn’t result in their being tossed out on their ears.
Dear ksfarmgrrl,
Aint gonna be no draft. I realize this is the great hope of the left, but it aint gonna happen.
Total manpower in the military went down around 25% during the Clinton years. It’s stayed pretty constant since Bush took office. In spite of the war.
Even though enlistments are down, reenlistments are up. That’s what is keeping the force strength constant. One of the reasons that initial enlistments are down is because of the qualifications of the applicants. The Army reported recently that only about 25% of the men between 18 and 25 are qualified for enlistment in the Army. The standards for the other branches of the armed forces are even higher.
So dear, if you believe that the draft is an issue you are merely the dupe of the spin merchants in the democratic party. They are the only ones hyping a draft.
Love you and your tater salad!
Hank
Oh come on JOE!
This is not some bloody football game!
Has it ever occurred to you that none support the troops better than those who demand their willingness to serve be used JUDICIOUSLY?
See Joe, this forum is addressing the use of those troops. Some of us “America basher” as you might call us, are actually more concerned as to the issue than what comfort slapping a magnet on your car and waving a flag brings you.
I for one question the results of this poll. Most folks that I talk to want to troops to come home and put on the border to stop the flow of drugs and wetbacks into the country! I was agianst this rminal zionist endeavour from the outset and I look forward to the day when those responsible face justice!
Julian Borger in WashingtonTuesday March 21, 2006The Guardian
Iraqi police have accused American soldiers of executing 11 Iraqi civilians, including four children and a six-month-old baby, in a raid on Wednesday near the city of Balad, it was reported yesterday.The allegations are contained in an Iraqi police report on the killings, obtained and published by the Knight Ridder news agency. The report emerged at a time when a US navy criminal investigation is under way into a previous incident, in November, in which marines are accused of killing 15 Iraqi civilians in Haditha in reprisal for a bomb attack on a US patrol.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1735478,00.html
V.L.R.B!!
There was a kernal of truth to what Heckler said, even though he was essentially wrong.
There is no Republican or Democratic bias in poll samples. That’s why he didn’t provide a link.
But Kansas is an overwhelmingly Republican state. Because it’s a big agri-buisness/military state. People vote for who pays them.
Since any sample of Kansans is going to have a larger sample of Republicans, of course it will skew in Bush’s favor, just as a sample of Massachussetts would be much more NEGATIVE than the average.
There’s no story here, folks, it’s just basic statistics.
That said, it doesn’t help when the only newspaper in Kansas’s largest city writes not a single word about the 150 people who marched in the rain against the war last Saturday.
Nope, didn’t happen as far as The Eagle was concerned.
Hank, why did the army lower it’s standards for admission recently?(I’ll try to find the link)
I thought it was because they needed the warm bodies. And if re-enlistments are up, are they up more than the decline in recruits? My understanding is, the military has, over the last year, missed all its staffing goals. If not so, why the lowering of standards?
Why is the military, not just the army, supposedly spread so thin? A media myth? Are you saying it isnt at its limit and we could take on more conflict without a draft?
Hank dear, I desperately do not want a draft. Even I am not that much of a political opportunist :)I just think from all reports, a draft will be necessary to clean up bush’s mess even without another conflit to staff.
And the more they deny it, the more suspicious I am, given their track record for sustituting truthiness for the truth. Re: bush’s denial of things he said on tape!
Glad you like the tater salad. Somedays I think it is my only talent!
“If this Iraq War becomes a huge endless blunder, then let it be.”
And what will you tell the families of the dead who died needlessly because we just “let it be”?
BH,
Just tell them that they died for a glorious cause; zionism, haliburton and US$ hegemony! There is no sacrifice too great for others to make for those evildoers.
V.L.R.B!!
Dear ksfarmgrrl,
There was an article a year or so ago about recruitment goals and why they weren’t being met.
Part of the problem is the girls. Yes the girls! It seems the Marines are meeting their goals. The others aren’t because they now have co-ed basic training. It seems it takes away from a recruit’s macho image if girls are able to do the same training they do.
Why is the military stretched so thin? Well, here’s a question more to the point: What president deployed troops to foriegn countries 44 times during his presidency, more than four time more than any previous president?
Hank
We can see the fruits of Democracy in Afghanistan where the crazy guy may very well get the death penalty for converting to Christianity. You would think the religious right might be having second thoughts about spreading democracy in the mid-east. But, no, they envy the guy that gets to be a martyr for Christ!
Bush supporters are too dumb to recognize the mission creep. We went in to rid Iraq of WMD’s, not to install democracy.
Hank, can you provide a link to that comment about the girls falling short?
I’ll show you mine if you show me yours :)
So if clinton was wrong for those deployments (of course CLINTON did it) why didnt shrub bring them home? You mean they arent all engaged NOW in the war on terror?
Where are they NOW and what are they doing?
And..I dont suppose the bush administration’s push to cut benefits for service people has ANYTHING to do with the missed recruitment goals…
Uh, oh. Marines Gone Wild. Here’s the video.
80 year old blind man mown in his house mown down along with rest of family.
Damn, I hate when that happens . . .
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=329328&ch=161968&src=www.bushflash.com
Dear ksfarmgrrl,
I agree, let’s bring the troops home! Let’s start with the ones in Germany.
Hank
JoeWhere in my post did i say I did not support the troopsThose poor young bastards are over there dieing because of the whim of some old fart politicians over here.
“the active-duty Army shortfall — they recruited about 4,000 fewer soldiers than in fiscal 2004 — is especially troubling because the service has already widened its recruit pool to accept older candidates and those with lower test scores, according to Mike Reilly, vice president of operations at the Center for Security Policy.”
“You can’t compare these numbers to the ones from last year, because you have to understand what they did to get these new numbers,” he said. “They’ve really gone down more than just what the difference is.”
http://stripes.com/article.asp?section=&article=31389&archive=true
“For fiscal year 2005, the Army is 40 percent short of its goal of 80,000 new soldiers. After missing its quotas for four consecutive months, the Army did reach its monthly recruiting goal in June.”
“Also troubling is the decline in enlistments for the National Guard, which according to the Department of Defense (DoD), is now some 10,000 soldiers short of its year-to-date goal.”
“The Army already pays enlistment bonuses of $20,000 to certain individuals and the Pentagon will probably ask Congress to double them. DoD will also ask Congress to raise the age limit for active-duty service from 35 to 40. More troubling is the Army’s decision to go to a 15 month enlistment policy, which means that a soldier will receive only basic and advanced individual training—no unit training—before deploying to Iraq as an individual replacement”
http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/owens/05/army.html
I’ll probably catch hell for this, but I have no problem with a draft. Men of my era grew up with the idea that they owed 2 years of service to their country. I’m anti-war, not anti-military. I think military service should be manditory. There’s a lot to be said for the dicipline and the experience you gain from the military. Military service makes men out of boys, teaches responsibility, and instills maturity.
Most of the people I know under 40 could use a stint in the military.
XXX, I have said here before I could support a two year public service draft. No exceptions for sex, age, ability, orientation, or income. Especially income. I’m not sure it has to be military, but it could be mandatory.
I could go for general public service. I don’t want the military any where near my kid.
Come on, Kansans are not that stupid as the polls indicate. What with all the yellow things hanging on their cars. Now with 75% of troops supporting a pullout, we will see if those actually mean “support Bush no matter what”. While still at it, express your support by volunteering your own self and family to go to the frontline.Now that is what i call support.
Some folks here are always criticizing conservatives for lack of compassion, yet seem to be more than willing to think up any and all excuses to kick the Iraqi people to the curb.
JR, RD, what does it matter what the initial main objective of the war was? Certainly to install a democratic government in the power vacuum was part of the plan from the beginning and promised to the Irais. We cannot abandon those people to anarchy.
Outlander?
We, that is bush, created the anarchy. There was no anarchy before bush’s little vendetta.bush was told what the result would be and he went anyway.I say give bush a gun a broom and a dustpan and let him clean up the mess he made
Who pays for this largesse, Outlander?
I guess that I’m just amazed that some Kansans could”back the war” while not considering the treasure itcosts. Or hold the president to account for failing to find ways to mitigate the cost.
I mean, we were told by President Bush that the cost would be borne by Iraqi oil flows if the “battle” (Bush’s word) was at all drawn out.
But somehow our “honor” extends only to the Iraqi’sand not to Americans? I mean, the President was wrongabout so many things in Iraq, especially the cost.He’s now saying he wants to borrow until at least2009, and “common sense” Kansans are still behind him.Where’s the accountability?
In my opinion, he’s seriously failed us all, even”common sense” Kansans, by failing to mitigate in anysignificant way the cost:-He’s failed to build a coalition capable ofprotecting the oil pipelines.-He’s failed to create a coalition inflow (get them topay for it, like GHWB did).-He’s failed to grow the coalition in order bring inmore treasure.
And there is this number.
$2,000,000,000,000. The current estimated cost if the war continues its current course for the next 2 years.
If we brought back the draft, we’d be outta Iraq by now. When all the chickenhawks have the same chance of sacrificing their life or the life of their loved one, support for Dubya’s big adventure would quickly fade.
Flike makes a good point about the cost of the war. Look at what happened to the Soviets in Afghanistan. That little adventure ruined the Soviets fianancially. Looks like we’re going to learn the same hard lesson in Iraq.
Bush won’t stop until he’s bankrupted the country.
To Ben:
I don’t think it’s going to be an endless blunder. I have faith that what we are doing is the right thing and the sacrifice of the soliders will not be in vain or used for political purposes.
When I say, let it be, to clarify, is let history tell. People thought WWI and WWII was a blunder, worthless, cost too many lives and money. History did not show their side. Vietnam was, but at the time, especially in the begining, lot of people in the Democratic Party and in government thought that Communist Containment was a good policy, history showed that it wasn’t a good idea.
I have to say that I’m not for the war for political purposes. Most people against the war are against it for political purposes, and I guess that is your excuse. That’s fine. I have no problem with people disagreeing with the war for political purposes.
I support the war because I believe in America and it’s agenda regardless of the party in power. I supported Clinton’s Balkin war intervention, bombing of Iraq in the NFZ, Haiti, and Somalia.
Were some of them failures? Yes! Were some of them success? Yes! But I supported his decision on each one of them regardless of the outcome.
Being a loyal American may be a stupid blind-in-the-dark conviction and I’m not saying that if you disagree with Bush and the war on Iraq makes you unamerican, it’s just I have a different take on it.
What it means to be an American is different for every person that is one. For me, if an American President decides to use military action for any purpose I’m going to support the President. That’s just me.
I’ll disagree with any President, Democrat or Republican on domestic issues, foriegn policy issues (that does not involve military conflict), and any other thing. But once boots are on the move I’m for it 100%.
Do I condone innocent people getting killed, atrocities done in the name of America or by our military soliders? No! I don’t think we should be conducting a bloodbath or dropping nukes. We have our mission and the United States in every conflict it has ever been in has always had the mission to be on the right side of humanity. I believe America is good and when the military is sent out to secure that or battle the bad guys, I’m going to be with them.
Just because somebody, such as myself, supports the war it doesn’t make us a Bush lover or a blind Bush follower or a zombie Republican. Some of us support for the war goes beyond the President but straight on our loyality and patriotism of America. My love for America is way above politics and Presidents.
If the President decides to end the Conflict in Iraq I’m for it. If it’s Bush or Hillary Clinton that makes that call. But before that decision is made, I’m for the war. But the President has to make the call,(again regardless of Party). If the public and Congress wants to end the war because of any reason, I’m not going to support anti-war sentiment and belief.
Outlander, it matters because changing objectives (reasons)weakens the case. He started off good with the WMD excuse. Then it was to topple Saddam, as if there wasn’t another way to do that without tons of bloodshed. Somewhere along the line it morphed into giving the Iraqi people freedom and democracy.
Democracy is certainly not a bad thing, but are you aware that most Iraqis have no idea what that word means? They are accustomed to doing what they’re told. They were told to vote. There voting was tied into their food rations. If I were an Iraqi, I’d go vote, too, and be sure to raise my purple finger so I wouldn’t miss out on my reward.
What does it matter what the initial main objective of the war was? Because giving them democracy is nothing more than justification. It’s an excuse. An afterthought when the other reasons/excuses didn’t work and were questioned.
By the way, is this the same democracy we were trying to give the South Vietnamese? If so, I’d say that was a bit of a failure.
The word “democracy” to our pretzeldent means nothing more than installing the people in the Iraqi government that HE (and his buddies) want there. Weren’t they a little disappointed in the results of the election because THEIR guys weren’t the favorite of the voters?
Keep in mind that the U.S. government put Saddam in power. If it doesn’t work out with the latest group, we can always invade again…if we ever bother to leave.
It is funny to me that this poll has become at topic as to the timing. I was wanting to bring this up as a sign of hope. When this first hit the front page, the issue was laying on the break room table at work. The people I work with are at times the reason I may go on a tirade about the general apathy of the American people these days. They discuss sports and some tv show that they may have seen. But bring up the war in Iraq or the latest installment of what the President has done. And you get a blank stare then they go back to discussing something that has no meaning.
Even things that do not having anything to do with the war or Bush, just general news escapes them. I call it the three day rule, I come back from lunch with the news that there has been a killing or some other news.They show no interest and continue to talk about sports, then three days later suddenly someone will blurt out “Hey did you hear about the killing…. To which the other will ask when it happened? And the person will say it happened today.” It will be the same killing that I told them about three days prior.
Anyway, one of my co-worker was walking pass and glance down at the paper. Then exclaimed “THAT IS B.S. WHY WOULD THE MAJORITY SUPPORT THAT? HE LIED US INTO THE INVASION, HE …”.The co-worker went on for about three minutes listing all that Bush&Co, had done and why it was wrong.This coming from one of those that seem totally uninterested and unaware of current events. I was shocked and surprised.
Never before had he shown any knowledge or concern about this subject, there maybe hope yet.“What was that? That rustlings from the bedroom…maybe it is the general American public waking up!”
You take 9/11 and “your unpatriotic if you don’t agree with me” out of Bushytail’s speeches and he has nothing.
Everyone should download and read the following paper. Harvard is already coming under extreme pressure to kill it!
The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign PolicyBy John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen WaltWorking Paper Number:RWP06-011Submitted: 03/13/2006Download Instructions
AbstractIn this paper, John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago’s Department of Political Science and Stephen M.Walt of Harvard University’s Kennedy School of Government contend that the centerpiece of U.S. Middle East policy is its intimate relationship with Israel. The authors argue that although often justified as reflecting shared strategic interests or compelling moral imperatives, the U.S. commitment to Israel is due primarily to the activities of the “Israel Lobby.” This paper goes on to describe the various activities that pro-Israel groups have undertaken in order to shift U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction.http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
“Three-day rule.” Yeah, no kidding, writerdog. If we become a nation of serfs, I fear we will have earned it.
There have been proposals to institute a draft. From Democrats! Most notably Charlie Rangel. Tell you something?
However, if Diebold-Democracy becomes the rule, it may not matter. Institute a draft and let ‘em howl! The wealthy kids and grandkids of those who had “other priorities” during Vietnam will find a way to sit this one out. As a popular metal band put it, “Why do they always send the poor?”
Joe: Opposing the war for POLITICAL reasons? You’ve got to be kidding me! You, actually, seriously, believe that those of us who are angry, horrified, and sickened by this UTTERLY PREDICTABLE and EXPEN$IVE tragedy are just making hay. . . because we don’t like Bush? Deja vu!
I think I may have said this–to you!–before: it’s just the reverse. When the administration does something sane, I notice. Example: They recently called the “elections” in Belarus a farce. Yes! Not the best messenger, but I heartily agree!
And I am so glad that Hank let us know our military is doing just fine, thank you. I was getting worried that we might be stretched a little thin.
Leave it to XXX to quote a commie peacenik source like that so-called “Stars and Stripes”! Hah! WHERE’S YOUR PATRIOTISM, DUDE?
Oh, Outlander? One Iraqi’s opinion of the our beneficent presence:
“The real fear is the mentality of so many people lately- the rift that seems to have worked it’s way through the very heart of the country, dividing people. It’s disheartening to talk to acquaintances- sophisticated, civilized people- and hear how Sunnis are like this, and Shia are like that… To watch people pick up their things to move to “Sunni neighborhoods” or “Shia neighborhoods”. How did this happen?”
“And what role are the occupiers playing in all of this? It’s very convenient for them, I believe. It’s all very good if Iraqis are abducting and killing each other- then they can be the neutral foreign party trying to promote peace and understanding between people who, up until the occupation, were very peaceful and understanding.”
It makes no sense until you realize we’re building 13 military permanent bases there. Strategic outpost flush with oil–if we could just stop those damn bombings!
Ask Israel how well military occupation has worked for them. . .
Oops! Got my typing right, but omitted the link:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com
Joe Williams?
Are you familiar with Stephen Colbert of the “Colbert report” on Comedy Central? If not I encourage you to check it out.
Colbert lampoons the quintisential flag waving love America Republican.
You remind me a lot of him…..only you are not lampooning.
JR: I don’t wave flags nor am I a Republican.
Why is it so bad that a person loves and is loyal to their country? There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bumpkin mentality or ideology.
Call me old-fashion, I guess. So I’m not cool because I don’t despise or hate what America does, well, I don’t care what you leftist think, you can’t get me to turn on my country for nothing.
Look! I don’t wish for war and rather not have it. I believe diplomacy can work in most all situations, including handling Saddam Hussian.
Iraq isn’t a safe place, either is most of Africa where death and war is commonplace, yet I hear nothing coming from any of you guys about it. It’s always Iraq, because that is where the politics is at. Yes! I do believe that most people who oppose the Iraq War, oppose it for political purposes.
If it were a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress, most of you would be singing a different tune. Garunteed! I would be the same! My character doesn’t change on who is in power. And yes! I believe that the vast numbers of Republicans who support the war only support it because the Republican holds the Presidency and if it wasn’t, they would oppose the war. But since that the Democrat in power model is not the case, we can never prove my theory on it.
Some of you are opposed to the war, because you are opposed to war in general, and I think that’s great also. At least you have character and are not persauded on which political party is in office.
I wish the Iraq war never happened, I wish it ended eariler, I wish the troops were all home now, but since they are not, I still support what we are doing there. Until it ends in one way or another, I’ll support it.
Wish all you want about the Iraq war. That is some conspiracy theory of the industrial military complex, the Isrealis, Oil, Bush family revenge or what ever nonesense you think it is.
The America I know has never been that way nor currently is. We’ve done bad things and made bad decisions and had bad Presidents, and we have bad apples in our population, but for the most part, America is about freedom and doing good all over the world. We’re not angels, but at least the vast amjority of us try to do the right thing and America reflects that.
I support the war because I believe we are over there with the best of intentions of doing the people in Iraq, American and the rest of the world good. Is it worth the deaths and the billions of dollars? I guess we can debate the meaning of the sacrifice.
Damn Joe you are a hoot.
“we are over there with the best of intentions of doing the people in Iraq”
yup we are doing themand folks like you are doing America in the process.
I like the “turning on America” part!
It’s called “democracy,” Joe. Look into it.
Wow. Some real dolts on these boards. From the “I’m naturally better than you because I’m republican” to the “people oppose this war only for the political purposes.”No wonder the Kansas BOE is in such shambles. Look at the examples of some of the people that went to the schools here. Yes sir, fine educational system they got here.
Turning on America? Point that out Rage. I haven’t said anything about turning on America.
Democracy? The United States is a Republic. It is ruled by law and not by the people.
The next poll the do in Kansas should include the question ” If your offspring told you they were seriously considering joining the military and wanted to go to Iraq, would you encourage, or discourage their decision?
my son-in law turned me on to this site and after reading some of the posts i am wondering if any of you have sons or daughters in iraq-my son recently returned home on leave from iraq and was surprised at what was shown on the news r/t iraq-wanted to know where the good things they were doing over there was being shown-news is all one sided-he is proud to be serving over there and backs the president 100%-all service men and women are volunteer,that means for you that dont know they had a choice-my son is a intelligent person,he believes in what he does-i back him 100%-when our president made the choice,he did it because he believed he was doing the right thing-war is not an easy thing to sign on too-funny how everyone says bring our troops home,unless you have a child over there i believe it should be up to their families to say that-i listen to the political rheteric from both rep.and dem parties-it actually makes me sick to my stomach as both have an agenda-both are up to their elbows in corruption and lies-promise you anything to get your vote and never come across-everyone is so busy bashing the other side they could care less about the people they are suppose to represent-wisen up
“Bush supporters are too dumb to recognize the mission creep.”
Heheh. I did enough government contracting to know about “out of scope” work and “engineering change orders” and how they can be used to increase the income of the contractor.
“mission creep” sounds suspiciously similar.
$700 hammers anyone?
Outlander, dude, you need to see a doctor quick.
“JR, RD, what does it matter what the initial main objective of the war was?”
Outie, it matters because the PRESIDENT LIED. REPEATEDLY. Shifting mission objective or mission creep is like trying to slide a lie past your parents. “I wasnt really running with scissors, I was just walking fast and anyway, I was just going to do my homework.”
Bush lied but it doesnt matter? Kinda like clinton ya know. Try this on for size:
“What difference does it matter WHAT the inital main objective was when clinton got a blow job?”
XXX thanks for posting that link about the military missing its recruitment goals despite lowering its standards for admission.
Still waiting on Hank’s links about how the military is just fine and anyway if it isnt, it is the fault of the girl(not women) recruits.
Geez, you dont think they will have to start recruiting or keeping GAY soldiers to make their numbers, do ya?
Come on kfg, it’s clear that the quoted comment was in the context of the general subject of “why we should not abandon the Iraqi people”. In that context, it clearly doesn’t matter.
Outie, yes it does matter, especially in that context. How are we going to fix the mess if we dont admit we are the root cause?
I thought from the beginning that this war was a VERY bad idea. But I have never agreed with immediate pullout, especially after we screwed things up so badly.
My dad always taught me that if I told a lie, I needed to own it and then make right the damage.
My dad also taught me that if I made a mess, I should clean it up. Too bad king george wasnt taught the same lessons. And now he wants us to pretend it was ok that thousands of people died because of his lies?
Accountability always matters. Being responsible always matters. Being honest about something as serious as why we should go to war always matters.
And lying ALWAYS matters. It’s one of the ten commandments, no?
So why is one lie ok and another is not?
“Never mind that he lied boys, just move onward christian soldiers!”
I think that is how we got into this mess…blind obedience and no questions allowed!
My dad always told me that some people are too damn hard-headed to talk to. Sometimes you fall into that category grrl.
BEEP . . . BEEP . . . BEEP
Okay contestents, that singles the end of the qualifying round.
Judges may we have your decision?
tick . . . tock . . . tick . . . tock
Hmmm, okay, it looks to be unanimous. All our judges agree that Grrl kicked Outlander’s ass, but good.
That means we’ll be saying goodbye to you Outlander, but be sure to pick up your consolation prize, “GW Bush’s Best Speeches,” the 35 second CD from the front desk.
And for our champion, Grrl, you’ll be moving into the semi-final round and playing for a brand . . . new . . . CAR!
PL: Yep, I lost on volume, not uncommon when you debate the grrl. I have very high style ratings though. I just get tired of people playing dumb so that they can bloviate on whatever their point is.
Outlander, my friend, :) wanna dispute something I said?
I guess advocating for the truth makes me hard headed. I guess being unforgiving about LIES makes me hard headed. I guess demanding accountability makes me hard headed.
If I am hard headed, does that make those opposite of me softheaded? I’ll take hard headed for $100, thank you very much.
heheh. loved your post proud lib, but I would rather play for a new TRUCK!
grrl: Oh right, now you’re nice to me!
Of course, I almost always have issues with your posts, but sometimes it just ain’t worth the aggravation. This is one of those sometimes. So back to the green room for me or wherever it it you go when you “quit the field” as JR puts it.
PL, that was pretty funny.
ACTUAL STATEMENT: “you can’t get me to turn on my country for nothing.”
My humble apologies, Joe. It was not an exact quote, as you wrote it (shoulda cut-and-paste–I got lazy), and at any rate I brazenly assumed America was your country.
“Democracy? The United States is a Republic.”
Uhm, actually it’s a democratic republic. You need both, otherwise you get mob rule, or unrepresentive government. Nice pedantry, Joe. You pick that up at Wazoo? (Oops! Excuse me: Wichita State University.) Go ask Ken for your money back (JUST KIDDING!)
Okay, let me spell it out for you. Spying for the enemy, or revealing troops movements (even if it’s in a dumbass fashion, like Geraldo), or likewise taking any actual actions to undermine the war effort isn’t a legitimate exercise of citizenship. Objecting to a war or its conduct, or indeed any government policy, is. (Bonus Point, Mr. P.S.B.S.: it’s in the Constitution. Name where, and quote it; Hint: “grievances”).
“It is ruled by law and not by the people.”
I believe the standard phrase for years was “a government of laws, not men.” While I commend your gender neutrality, the way you state it really cracks me up! It’s completely wrong. The “people” RULE! That’s democracy, LITERALLY: ????? (demos) ‘the common people’ + ??????? (kratein) ‘to rule’, as opposed to “men” (as in the Monarch or the Junta). See the difference?
But since you basically grasp that it’s laws that are supposed to govern this country, you might remind the Commander-in-Chief of this; he thinks he’s above the law.
“‘”What difference does it matter WHAT the inital main objective was when clinton got a blow job?’”
Well, KFG, if that’s how my day ends, the logic sounds fine to me! :-)
{Posting here rather than the huge polygamy thread below):
I knew it was a compliment, KFG. Since Rockl was attacking my “bias,” I thought you was saying I was generally fair. So I was grateful was wrong compliment I guess! No harm, no foul, right?
If he’ll lie us into one war without accountability, why wouldn’t he lie us into another? Seems to be his MO anyway, don’t fix the last bungle, just create a new and bigger one.
Bush may be a liar, he probably has told lies in his lifetime…
However, none of the things you guys are talking about are any of Bush’s lies.
No matter how many times you say it, no matter how much you want people to believe it.
Bush did not lie about the things you say.
“When we find the WMD’s, AND WE WILL FIND them!”
“When we find OBL, AND WE WILL find him!”
“Mission accomplished!!”
“you’re doing a heck of a job, brownie!”
“Today, America is a safer place”
I could go on and on and on and on……..
Damoon, notice he doesnt argue the context of “thou shalt not lie”.
Sheesh. Do you guys really post from Kansas or are all Kansas liberals overtly pessimistic manic depressives about their state?