Noting the attention the HBO series “Big Love” (in photo) is getting, conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer argues that it is illogical to argue that gays should be able to get married but that polygamy shouldn’t be allowed. “Don’t tell me that we can make one radical change in the one-man, one-woman rule and not be open to the claim of others that their reformation be given equal respect,” he wrote. But Krauthammer isn’t buying the arguments of many conservatives who see gay marriage or polygamy as threats to traditional marriage. “The assault came from within,” he wrote. “Marriage has needed no help in managing its own long, slow suicide, thank you. Astronomical rates of divorce and of single parenthood (the deliberate creation of fatherless families) existed before there was a single gay marriage or any talk of sanctioning polygamy. The minting of these new forms of marriage is a symptom of our culture’s contemporary radical individualism — as is the decline of traditional marriage — and not its cause.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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246 Comments
Why not make polygamy legal? With all the pain, suffering, aguish and betray a woman put up with just having one man. If she can stand more then one, more power to her!One woman is enough for me. First part is a joke, the second part is true.
Marriage is a dying thing anyway. More and more people are opting out and for young people almost half of them don’t bother with it anyway (many of them- and us- having seen the hell it brought to our own childhoods). I really don’t know why gays even want it but hey- if you want marriage- I’ll be glad to give it to you!
I don’t have a problem with polygamy either. Consenting adults should be free to live as they wish as long as they are not harming others.
Gay marriage is fine with me, most of them will end in divorse just like the marriages between a man and a woman. (Not saying that they will all end). Polygamy, I never thought about it but I guess it would be OK, It would be safer then one or the other having an extra marital affair. There are a lot of people who like to have one or more in their life at one time, if thats what they like, let them have what they like. Who are we to tell other people how to live or what to do with their sex life as long as it does not involve Pedifilia.
Thanks but no thanks…one bimbo is enough!
I have no problem with gay marriage, but never really thought about polygamy. Makes sense to me, why not allow people to live their lives as they wish?
Contrary to the Terry Fox’s of the world, people living happily together do not threaten my marriage in any way shape or form.
People can do what they like. As long as it legal.
If gay marriage, polygamy marriage, sibling/1st cousin marriages, children marriages, and arranged marriages are illegal in our country, and you fill passionatly about being in a reconized marriage by the state as such, then change the law.
People are free to be in relationships of the like, just won’t be reconized as a marriage under our legal system.
Personally I don’t care. People can be in any relationship they want to be in. But legalizing marriages that are currently illegal is way down in the bottom of my list of issues. I mean really at the bottom of the list. I really don’t care.
I love the idiotic comments that appear whenever gay marriage is discussed..the thought of marrying dogs, etc. Like an animal can give legal, informed consent? Seems the last bastion of the true idiots is the ridiculous..
Sheesh.
“Ok Mr.Ed, do you take Wibur as your lawfully married spouse? Clump your hoof once for yes, twice for no!” The best of both worlds……
Some things are just too stupid to address, but I cant resist.
In 2005 it was your own BonBon Huy who first raised this argument regarding the hate amendment. I remember those testifying against hate looked at each other in utter astonishment. Then we started laughing, and we almost got thrown out of the hearing!
The conversation amongst us afterwards was “holy cow, just when you think they cant stoop any lower or get any more ridiculous…”
Unfortunately, it proved to be a winning argument. Seventy percent of kansans fell for it.
Of course those same “people marrying animals” arguments were made about interracial marriages. Do ya think, if terry, joe, fred and bonbon had lived back then, they would’ve waved the confederate flag and whistled dixie?
Which makes the six black ministers who testified in 2004 in favor of the hate amendment all the more ridiculous. I guess everyone needs to feel superior to someone, and they can always find a scripture or two to support their bigotry.
How quickly we forget these same arguments were used against racial equality and civil rights.
Oh but of course, our struggle for civil rights and THEIR struggle for civil rights are not the same, dontcha know. Gays are just lower order, frowned upon by god, and choosing to be inferior beings. They dont deserve equal treatment under the law.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Krauthammer? Good god phillip, first instapundit and now krauthead? Is there any wingnut you dont pimp :) ?
All of this ignores the real issue which is civil marriage and why we as a society think we need it. Civil marriage is all about “stuff”. It is all about property, money, custody, etc. It doesnt have one damn thing to do with morality. It is a civil contract between consenting adults.
Render unto ceasar…all I want is recognition of my marriage contract by the civil authorities. It is all about property and stuff, and my civil marriage contract deserves the same consideration as everyone else’s.
All this bloviating about gay civil marriage essentially putting the state’s stamp of approval on gay marriage is just crap. The state licenses tatoo parlors too but I dont think it “officially” approves or disapproves of tatoos.
The churches have always had the domain of the morality of marriage. I dont propose to change that since I see how well it is working. :) Damn, now I am agreeing with krauthead on that point.
I see how many folks already have, without a marriage license or the approval of the state, multiple sex partners at the same time, multiple children by multiple women, and serial families that they refuse to support emotionally or financially.
It sure would clog up the legal system if all the victims in THAT chain had rights!
Jeez, why would anyone want more than one spouse? That would only appeal to someone with more energy than I have. It may sound great if you’re 25, but at my age, it sounds like punishment.
Be careful what you wish for.
Got it in in just 3 that time KFG :)
I tire of this old arguement of “if this X is ok then I guess you think Y would be ok too.!” But if we must argue in that manner then I would for my part want to go toward more rights for more people than the other way.
Shhesh that was boring. I’ll have to get fired up and try again.
NAMBLA shall be next to make a stupid appeal to emotion for the state to “legalize” their civil unions with kids. Let me ask you stupid people something: When the pedophiles start making the same arguments as the gays and the polygamists, will you defend or fight them?
See how empty your notions of morality are! Marriage as a whole should be terminated! Instead, people should copulate and their children should be raised by the state!
legalize polygamy!legalize polyandry!legalize gay marriage!legalize beastiality!legalize pedophilia!legalize rape!legalize incest!legalize child pornography!
And they said that we Russians were the “antichrist!”
DEATH TO AMERICA!!!
What? none of you brainiac capitalist swine can answer my question???
Well I have to go, I’m late for my ritual burning of Old Glory!
DEATH TO AMERICA!!!!
Well well well!
It looks like the gay defenders are advocates for the polygamists as well! hehehe…Of course the have to because the gay supporters of an alternate lifestyle MUST support other alternate lifestyles! Iam going to laugh so hard that I’m gonna piss on myself when pedophiles demand for their unions with children to be recognized by the state! Then the gays and the polygamists will be FORCED to defend pedophilia as an alternate lifestyle as well, since the pedophiles will undoubtedly use the SAME ARGUMENTS that the gays and the polygamists use!
You people are pathetic.
What consenting adults do with each other is their business. To say pedophila and beastiality are in the same catagory as gay marriage or polygamy is dumb. There are no victims when participants are adult and consenting. Laws to protect children and animals from abuse and exploitation are necessary, but what people do as adults is no one else’s business as long as no one else is being hurt or victimized.Polygamy? I could sure use the extra help around the house, but my husband says he is not a glutton for punishment and one woman bitching at him all the time is all he can handle.I certainly wouldn’t want any more men to pick up after, either.
Crux, may I suggest a course in formal logic? Or maybe just re-reading KFG’s 3 posts above, a little more carefully this time?
Or are you being sarcastic again? I can never tell.
Don’t shoot me.
Rage, all things considered, I’d be more worried about getting bit.
The seperation of church and state is in name only. The “christians” still rule the roost, and until that changes life for alternate lifestyles will be considered too immoral for the average human being.
Having come from a very strict family, living in the midst of alternate lifestyle heaven, I have no problem with gay marriage, nor do I have a problem with polygamy.
I like the saying, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” I would bet a paycheck that the current legislature, BOE member, Attorney General, and city council member would not qualify to lift, let alone throw, the first, or any, stone. Hypocrisy in action.
Rage,Who are you to determine what is MORAL and IMMORAL then? If pedophiles want to have sex with kids and have their civil unions recognized by the state, what argument would you use against them? What if the child CONSENTS to being in a sexual relationship with an adult? Give me an argument you would use to refute that!
There are no victims when participants are adult and consenting.
Damoon,What if the child CONSENTS to be in a sexual relationship with an adult? Are you gonna use the Christian “morality” argument, that you say has no argumentative basis?
Hahaha!
CruX,Logical reasoning is reading your version of logic and thinking, “opposite.”
Perhaps we should make the law state that pedophilia is ok as long as the child CONSENTS to having sex with an adult? Who here is in favor of such a law?
Exactly, when NAMBLA makes this argument I bet you’ll be kickin yourselves in the a$$es! Well, except if you’re a liberal pedophile of course!
JM,Why don’t you answer my question?
What happened to all the NAMBLA polygamist sympathizers? All of a sudden I show up with a valid argument and they resort to avoiding the issue.
Bah! There is no challenge for me here.
What benefit to society would be gained by legalizing polygamy? OK, free babysitting. What else? Why allow it?
“I like the saying, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
Walker, I think you probably know this, but that is not just a saying. It is a passage from the New Testament. The Pharisee had brought an adulteress to Jesus. The law prescribed stoning for the offense. They asked Jesus what should be done. His reply stopped the blood-thirsty crowd dead in its tracks. He then told the woman to go and sin no more.
None of us are qualified to cast the first stone. But that does not mean we are to turn a blind eye to immoral behaviors.
My evidence is strictly anecdotal but it seems that many of the polygamous households are on welfare. IF that is true then it is in the interest of the State to not allow it.
Crux, have you stopped beating your wife?
Rage – maybe the problem is that she beats HIM up!
Damoon and ksfarmgrrl you make great points.
Crusader, you’re just sick
Farmgrrl has it right when it’s about stuff. It’s about being at someone’s side when they are ill.
Adults should be able to make decisions for their lives that don’t harm anyone else.
Whoever is posting under ‘Hegel’ should get one thing straight: Hegel isn’t Marx. Hegel is a WAY more reactionary, bourgeois thinker. Notably, Hegel affirms the necessity of the family, although he does of course nest it within civil society and the state. Hegel is a statist. Big time. And heterosexual. And more than a little anti-feminist.
So, when ‘Hegel’ puts the above words in Hegel’s mouth, it is, well, more than a little ignorant.
And then there’s CrusaderX’s totally incoherent, self-congratualtory declaration of victory. He claims that those who favor polygamy also endorse pederastry. His reason for claiming this? “The pedophiles will undoubtedly use the SAME ARGUMENTS that the gays and the polygamists use.”
So, does this mean that gays and polygamists endorse pedophilia? No. Ask ‘em. More to the point, the age of consent is just that: the age below which one cannot offer consent. People who advocate this being removed are neither gay rights groups nor necesarily polygamous: they’re pederasts, by definition. For you to claim that their position requires they ascribe competency to whomever, willy nilly, is just dishonest. Or stupid.
If you’re really that bothered by pederastry, you ought to be really incensed over the Catholic clergy sex abuse scandal. Haven’t heard you say a word about it. Why not?
You have no argument, CrusaderX. But what you do have is a pathological need to submit yourself to intellectual humiliation. I’ve remarked on it previously, and I will, again, recommend that you seek professional counseling.
Idiot.Children can’t give consent. There’s an unfair balance of power in pedophile relationships: The adult is using his/her power to manipulate the child.Animals, again, can’t give consent. Even if my puppy-choo could talk, she wouldn’t have the same mental capacity as I to be able to consent to sex.I’ve heard the polygamy argument before, and I don’t think it’s a strong analogy. When you consider all of the tax benefits of marriage, it would be unfair to extend those to a union of three.Gay marriage, on the other hand, allows a person to have all of the rights of marriage with one other person. These people wouldn’t have these tax cuts/etc otherwise (with the exception of gay people who marry people of the opposite sex. It’s ridiculous to have to go against your innate tendencies to get these benefits). Anyway, that’s where the systemic discrimination comes in.
Now, I know my history, and I think we need to take baby steps. Civil unions are a good option for now. We didn’t go from blacks being enslaved to integrated schools overnight.
I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again, emphatically: Every argument against gay marriage could be applied to outlaw interracial marriage.
Interracial marriage is far more destructive than gay marriage!!!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
While I obvious don’t agree with Ian’s view (duh!), in this particular context, his last comment cracked me up. :)
Outlander,It was a parable. As such, it can be applied to any number of situations. My point, then, is who are you to cast it as immoral behavior? Because gay marriage is against the law? Is it against the law because it violates Christian princples? If it violates christian principles, and it’s against the law, doesn’t that equate to the fact that christians run the government and make the rules?
And if that is true, then doesn’t it also stand that as christians making rules regarding moral issues, shouldn’t they be held to the “don’t throw stones” standard?
There are also bona-fide religions that perform same-sex marriages? On what secular basis (moral or otherwise) should the state play favorites? Perhaps we should have mandatory circumcisions (oh vey!).
BTW, Outlander, thanks for rescuing the discussion from the two flaming idiots.
Remove the first “?”. Ooops.
That’s just too bad Ian, because I like my men pale and scrawny.
There are NO non-religious arguments against gay marriage. None. If we were to ever pass a marriage amendment defining it as between one man and one woman, it would be Christian based and totally unacceptable.
Can I get you to reconsider Tara? Maybe someone a bit heavy with a grey beard … ?
OK, Walker let me ask you this. Is there any such thing as immoral behavior? And if you say yes, who are you to judge?
If you’re really that bothered by pederastry, you ought to be really incensed over the Catholic clergy sex abuse scandal. Haven’t heard you say a word about it. Why not?
Really, I am bothered by it.However the liberal NAMBLA group as well as their ACLU defenders don’t seem to have a problem with pederasty. Whose side are you on CF? Are you on NAMBLA’s side that pederasty is not a crime? Which of course will consequently make you a defender of pedophile Catholic priets. Can your liberal side actually be capable of defending clergymen? hahaha! Or perhaps you are against NAMBLA and the ACLU, which would make your viewpoints on pederasty starkly CONSERVATIVE!hahaha!
Rage: I’m not sure what’s up with Crusader X. My guess would be that his NCAA Tourney bracket must have gone sour.
Tara: I have to disagree with your implication that any law against gay marriage must be religious-based, and therefore that is somehow wrong. Using that reasoning, laws against murder would be wrong because it also prohibits murder in the Bible.
Let’s all give CF a hand for placing MY religion into this! Wow! You really are an excellent logician! You attack the person instead of the issue!
Oh wait it’s the OTHER WAY AROUND! Give CF a big f*cking hand folks!CLAP CLAP CLAP…
Children can’t give consent. There’s an unfair balance of power in pedophile relationships: The adult is using his/her power to manipulate the child.
Are you sure children are INCAPABLE of consent? So Tara, children cannot make decisions therefore children are irrational creatures?? Hahaha! Don’t quit your day job!
JM Walker,
WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT PEDERASTY IS IMMORAL?
Wheeewwweeeee.
You really stink up a thread Crux.
Ok you f*cking morons,Let’s say I am an advocate for pederasty / pedophilia. I make my case based on the premise that religion as well as the concept of an individual’s “morality” should not be based on the state’s legal standing on pederasty / pedophilia. I also use Tara’s argument that the same arguments for pederasty is also applicable to gay and interracial marriage. Therefore what will you suddenly “moral” liberals use against my argument?
There are two prominent schools of thought when dealing with legal philosophy. There is the traditionalist school which advocates that all laws are and should be based on what is known as “morality.” And there is the more progressive school of thought which advocates that laws are and should be “morally” neutral. What school of thought do the polygamists/ gay marriage/ and pederasty advocates on this BLOG choose?
JM,Where do you get your notion of morality from? Is it your own notion? (since you do not believe that Christian morality has any place in the determination of our laws) If it is your OWN NOTION of morality, then WHOSE NOTION of morality should the courts determine which laws are moral and which laws are morally void / repugnant?
Finally JM,You were complaining upthread that we live in a Christian-run country. May I remind you that in a DEMOCRACY the majority rules? May I also remind you that 93% of the American population consists of Christians and/or people who believe in a religion or “Higher Power?” I feel sorry for the athiests though… Perhaps I should make a suggestion for you and other athiests to move to SWEDEN???
lol
My notion of morality centers on the concept of harm. Your rights end where another person’s begin. So murder is prohibited in the Bible, Outlander, but that’s not the reason we have laws against murder.CrusaderX, a child engaged in (even consensual) relations with an adult suffers harm. I don’t think any mental health professional would disagree with that. That’s why pedophilia is illegal.Two consenting gay adults suffer no harm.
Blogfart sez to CF:”You attack the person instead of the issue!”At least CF didn’t threaten to shoot anybody.
Blogfart sez:”If you’re really that bothered by pederastry, you ought to be really incensed over the Catholic clergy sex abuse scandal. Haven’t heard you say a word about it. Why not?”Maybe because the Catholic clergy isn’t the subject of the thread. DUH!
Blogfart sez:”Are you sure children are INCAPABLE of consent? So Tara, children cannot make decisions therefore children are irrational creatures?? Hahaha! Don’t quit your day job!Some village somewhere is missing it’s idiot. CruX, call home.
Blogfart sez:”Ok you f*cking morons”Shows a lack of taste, breeding, upbringing (do you kiss your mother with that mouth?), social skills, and intellect.
CruX, we’re sorry about your girlfriend leaving you (or boyfriend as the case may be).
It appears Blogfart the 1st has quit the field.
FOr future posters to this thread, a bit of explanation.
By his actions on a variety of threads this day, and given his posts of the past; The poster formerly known as Crusaderx has helped me to invent a new term. Blogfart.Given his assistance in defining this term, and his “exemplary” service to same, I earlier on another thread proclaimed him Blogfart the 1st.
Hear, Hear, JR! Blogfart the 1st it is. Not only has he left the field, but he’s lost what passes for his mind.
Oh he is here X. Blogfart is a latenighter like me. he is just hiding and watching. Like he was earlier when he saw his actions of last week addressed in open thread and “graced”us his posts less than an hour later and for many hours since.
Also a night owl, but I do early mornings sometimes too, JR. :)
Crux, if you’re out there, here’s the answer to your stupid question: “age of consent” has been part of U.S. law basically forever. It used to be a lot lower (hence the recent ‘marriage’ of a 12-year-old in Kansas), but the notion that allowing consenting adults to get hitched leads automatically to a free-for-all is the worst type of unsupported slippery slope argument.
The Supreme Court outlawed the production of child pornography in Ferber v. U.S., and the mere possession of it in some Ohio case (I forget the exact cite). In each instance, it was a specific exception to First Amendment protection, completely separate from the obscenity rulings.
And it was specifically for purpose of protection children from sexual abuse. The Supremes recently affirmed this logic in the ‘virtual porn’ case (to the shock of those who didn’t understand the prior rulings).
NAMBLA would be laughed out of court.
And the by the way, polygamists would have to overcome a Supreme Court ruling well over a hundred years ago. So even if it’s possible, it ain’t happening quickly.
I don’t know what happened to you, but you really need to chill out. Sure, we yell at each other a bit here–it’s not like we’re all of one mind (how boring!)–but JR is right: This is a very forgiving group.
But you might have even worn out your welcome here. Since nicks here can be changed like cheap suits, you might consider starting over. You weren’t always such an asshole.
Think about it.
Blogfart,You missed on ALL points, which I consider par for your course. You have reinvented the term “logic” to mean something thought out in a totally irrational manner. As such, the term Blogfart applies with all its bells and whistles. Wear it proudly: you are indeed the first. The last would also be an excellant tag to wear, but sadly, I’m afraid there will be more. Finally, I have one request to make: Please don’t breed.
Walker: I’m surprised that you would join in the name calling rather than to address the substantive pending questions. Easier, I guess.
I copied this off of someone else’s blog, so I cant vouch for its accuracy. I sure HOPE it is true. Great story anyway.
This is about a hearing on gay marriage held on March 1.
“At the end of his testimony, Republican Senator Nancy Jacobs said: “Mr. Raskin, my Bible says marriage is only between a man and a woman. What do you have to say about that?”
Raskin replied:
“Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible.”
What part of this is so hard to understand?
Outlander,What? Did you say something about a substantive question? Asked by blogfart? Isn’t that a conundrum?
Seriously, though, the question asked deserves no answer, as it is a moot point.
*farmgrrl tosses out the bait*
Who is harmed by gay marriage oulander?
I always wonder, is the sexual identity of so many people (70 percent of kansans!) so fragile that my girlfriend and I can bring down civilization as we know it with our partnership?
Kate Clinton has a great take on the power of gay people. Paraphrasing here, but she says it would be great if lesbians had that much power, as in “I cant tell my dad I’m gay, he’d die of a heart attack”.
Wouldnt it be great if we had so much power? If I could walk up to terry, joe and fred and say “I’m” gay and BAM, they keeled over with a heart attack?
HEHEHEH
I have no problem with Gay marrage and polygamy until it comes to sociality security time then, you talk about a drain on the system, that will bankrupt it quicker then anything.In gay marrage the spouce would normally receive half of the “head of the household)’s” portion. What about polygamy. would all the wives receive their half? Talk about a drain! ! !
Guy, I agree that expanding the definition of ALL benefits currently extended to straight married couples could be expensive.
One good solution to the inherent discrimination of those married benefits is that we could always eliminate spousal benefits for EVERYONE. That would be way cheaper for government and business. It could be done in a phased manner, like upping the age of eligibility.
As james dobson, the focus on hate guy noted, two sisters living together would like to be able to will “survivor” benefits to each other as well.
Of course, straight married people LIKE their elevated financial status in the world. They like believing they are ENTITLED to government benefits and approval of their unions.
If straight, married people remain in the majority, we would likely have to pry their marriage benefits out of their cold dead hands.
But ya know, the costs of all entitlements just keep rising…
Someone yesterday asked why we even need civil marriage, and commented that single people need to stand up and be counted.
I guess as a society, we cant have it both ways. We cant claim equal justice for all and then also create a privileged class of married straight people.
But when have americans ever really believed in equality? All that matters in this country is being part of a majority. To the victor go the spoils, ya know?
Many laws that discriminate against gays also discriminate against singles. And the growth of the number of single households outstrips all other forms of cohabitation.
Boogy boogy boogy, if the majority really rules in this country, single people are coming to get you married folk!
You majority rules people (not you guy!) need to be careful what you ask for. The new majority will be made up of people of color and single folks.
I cant wait for the revolution to be televised.
farmgirl
“You majority rules people (not you guy!) need to be careful what you ask for. The new majority will be made up of people of color and single folks.”
When the whites become the minority, will they receive all the benefits the minority now enjoy?
I’ve discussed this subject many times with co-workers, out on the campaign trail, and here. I always ask the question, “Can anyone identify reasons why the government should license any marriage?” Nobody ever comes up with a solid reason. Most reasons given are easily accomplished through legal channels. There are many examples of things single people do to control their lives. A will or a living will are good examples.
The best argument against gay marriage licenses is that nobody should be required to get a marriage license.
Naw guy, we’re gonna stomp the hell outa ya just to see ya cry :)
Just kidding guy, and I am not picking on you. I was just waiting for the right opportunity to say all that!
Oneshot. It actually has historical content. Marriage licences that is. Government got it from the church who used to do their own marriage recording (and still do in many religons).
But the reason why government grants marriage licence, which is really a binding contract between two adults, is for the purpose of controlling society.
They came up with the conclusion, and I’m not for sure how true it is but I believe it has merit, that marriage somewhat controls men. It keeps them in a family unit. Because if men didn’t marry or became a childrearer, then society would be caotic, just like Barbarian days.
The Church used it starting in the dark ages and put the fear of God into men using indocternation. Now the government does it. It establishes legal obligations of a binding contract between two adult, normally associated with a man and a woman relationship.
Does it make since to still have government conducting marriage licence? You bet. Especally when it comes to divorce, annulment, and child custody cases.
Now speaking of child custody. There is a large womens group, I forget the name, but they oppose gay marriages, not for religous purposes but for child custody purposes.
The reason is, that current law under child custody cases give perference to the mother, which is basically gender specific. But once we have gay marriages, then gender preferences go out the window and the court system will have to come up with an entirely new standards to grant child custody. There is a lot of divorced women who do not want that.
Rof. lmqao. WTF?
I see this poligamy talk is the new right wing meme.
I heard someone on tweety’s show say that as the election of 06 approaches, we can expect to see the r’s try to bring their christian base back to the party, and gay marriage would be the quickest and easiest way.
I wondered how they would do it since the frenzy of hate amendments is sort of over and the national amendment is going nowhere.
Now I see tucker carlson is having a big poligamy thing on his conservative talk show tonight. I wonder where the “if we let gays marry then sheep can marry” meme about poligamy will pop up next.
Surely not fux news.
Exactitkedlly! Women don’t know what they want, so gay marriages will make the gubment change the depenition of what makes a guy/grrl relationship for purposes of tu-rough-ly confusicatin’ us all. Now, if DAT don’ make ya wanna grow some beets, I don know what will! Pass the tater salad.
My only compaint about the queers is I don’t thing they should be in our elementary education system. I understand, some people come by it by nature but young impressionabe students tend to look up to and emulate their teachers.
Guy, a quick question (or questions):Could you ever see yourself being attracted to men? Is there anything in the whole entire world that would cease your attraction to women and pique your interest in men? Anything?
Nope, didn’t think so. Sexual orientation isn’t something you can change at will, or be talked into. If it were, wouldn’t all these gay people turn straight to avoid a life of discrimination?
Islam allows up to four wives. Some old school wealthy Chinese (Buddhists) used to have a second wife or a concubine living with the first wife.
Though both these cultures allow polygamy, it is much more honored in the breach than in the observance. I met hundreds of Malays (Muslims) when I worked in KL for three years, and all of them had only one spouse.
The trouble with polygamy is that it generally implies a male-dominated society and a highly patriarchal family structure. That’s what one sees in Africa where it’s practiced, in the Middle East, and in fundamentalist Mormonism.
BTW, who the hell cares what Krauthammer thinks?
Thanks, Tara.
Well said. Why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay, when the very words gay and queer are used as adjectives for “undesirable” and “detested?”
The more you learn about homosexuality, the more you see it’s no more of a choice than being hetrosexual.
“QUEERS”? I hope you’re an old guy, Guy. I can’t get my 93 yr old mom to quit saying “colored folks”, either.
Apology accepted.
I remember having my first crush in 1st grade. That’s a pretty convincing argument that orientation is somewhat inherent. I’d say with great confidence that I was born straight.
When you say things like “I don’t have a problem with them BUT”…it means you do have a problem, and they’re not equal in your eyes.
Much of the arguments against gay rights are based on the “squick” factor. I think it’s gross and nasty and it makes my tummy hurt; therefore it should be illegal.
J M Walker. You are a funny man. Again! I’m just passing the information. Myself? I could care less.
People make a big issue out of gays and gay marriages. The so called “alternative lifestyle”. There isn’t nothing alternative about it. There isn’t anything taboo or special about gay people, they’re just gay. A dime a dozen just like anybody else. Everybody at least knows a gay person, just like everybody knows a minority person. I don’t know why people make it such a big deal.
The tradionalist are trying to make a big deal about it, just like they did with Miscegenation Laws back in the day.
If you’re gay, keep fighting for the right to marry. It will eventually turn your way. It’s not an issue I care about, so I’ll be on the sidelines.
Joe,
You’re making sense.
What happened?
My nephews have been together for 17 yrs and were able to get married a few years ago in Vermont. One of the healthiest, happiest marriages I know. They’re wonderful parents and now they’re wonderful grandparents.I know a lot of straight couples who could learn a thing or two from them about what it takes to have a happy marriage.
Walker: I wasn’t referring to Crusader X’s questions, just the ones that I asked you about earlier. Here it is again.
“OK, Walker let me ask you this. Is there any such thing as immoral behavior? And if you say yes, who are you to judge?”kfg: Gay marriage is not the topic that I was addressing, so I think I will take a pass on the “bait” this time!
OL,Again, the question is moot. It is being used as bait. Your hook is too dull to catch anybody with a modicum of intelligence. Try another pond.
ksfarmgrrl, indeed; polygamy is the new thing. It’s tied to the arguments about bestiality.
I first heard these lines of argument, if you can call them that, last year during a public forum at WSU. Rev. Terry Fox tried to get me to commit to the idea that if gay folks should be allowed to get married, so should cows. When I raised the OBVIOUS objection that gay folks are moral agents and cows are not, he asked ‘who decides’? as if this were fatal to my position. I responded that when a cow can tell me it’s a cow, I’ll consider whether it should be allowed to get married.
I mean, truly, these are the stupidest conceivable arguments. They appeal to a fear-addled mind, and not much else.
‘Fux News.’ That’s funny as hell. You have a way with words, ksfarmgrrl.
Ethos vs Mores … Ethos has to do with man’s relationship with other men; mores has to do with man’s relationship with God. The state (Caeser) has an interest in the former; not the latter.
Ah, CF, I was there too! And you were great! It was fascinating to see how flustered and inarticulate the good Rev was when not preaching to the choir. Fish out of water.
And methinks you were right: Some 20-25 years down the line, it will no longer be an issue.
Outlander, I think this addresses your question in a rather ironic fashion. From REYNOLDS v. U.S., 98 U.S. 145 (1878) (the decision upholding laws against polygamy). Sorry about the length (believe me, there’s a LOT more). . .:
“Accordingly, at the first session of the first Congress the amendment now under consideration was proposed with others by Mr. Madison. It met the views of the advocates of religious freedom, and was adopted. Mr. Jefferson afterwards, in reply to an address to him by a committee of the Danbury Baptist Association (8 id. 113), took occasion to say: ‘Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions,-I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.’ Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order.”
“Polygamy has always been odious among the northern and western nations of Europe, and, until the establishment of the Mormon Church, was almost exclusively a feature of the life of Asiatic and of African people. At common law, the second marriage was always void (2 Kent, Com. 79), and from the earliest history of England polygamy has been treated as an offence against society. After the establishment of the ecclesiastical [98 U.S. 145, 165] courts, and until the time of James I., it was punished through the instrumentality of those tribunals, not merely because ecclesiastical rights had been violated, but because upon the separation of the ecclesiastical courts from the civil the ecclesiastical were supposed to be the most appropriate for the trial of matrimonial causes and offences against the rights of marriage, just as they were for testamentary causes and the settlement of the estates of deceased persons.”
“Marriage, while from its very nature a sacred obligation, is nevertheless, in most civilized nations, a civil contract, and usually regulated by law. Upon it society may be said to be built, and out of its fruits spring social relations and social obligations and duties, with which government is necessarily required to deal. In fact, according as monogamous or polygamous marriages are allowed, do we find the principles on which the government of [98 U.S. 145, 166] the people, to a greater or less extent, rests. Professor, Lieber says, polygamy leads to the patriarchal principle, and which, when applied to large communities, fetters the people in stationary despotism, while that principle cannot long exist in connection with monogamy.”
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=98&invol=145
So that was the 1878’s Court’s SECULAR argument against polygamy. It may have been true in 1878, but I’m not sure about today (well, outside Utah anyway. . . ).
{As an aside, it’s interesting: It seemed to contain traces of both racism and proto-feminism.}
I have yet to hear a secular argument against gay marriage.
DamoonYou damn right I’m an old fart and am proud of it. The way your going you won’t make it to 78. You got to be tough, smart and good looking to get to be this old.
Wy I remember when an attorney was a lawer, an educator was a teacher, a flight attendent was a sturdiest, etc, etc and a gay was a queer.You should be so lucky to get this old. And I’m having a hell of a good time.I hope you bake it.
SorryI hope you Make it.(I have an excuse, I’m old)
Oh for a chance to confront Terry Fox or his minion Joe Wright.
I envy you CF.
I’m jealous too CF.
“Thufferin Thucotash, lemme at ‘em, lemme at ‘em”.
The year 2006 in bush’s america.
election year = wedge issue
gay marriage is the PERFECT wedge
gay marriage = forced poligamy
forced poligamy = irrational fear
irrational fear = republicans win
I think GW is back to doing what works. Making people, especially christians, very, very, VERY AFRAID. And gay people generate tremendous fear (not to mention hate, the fall back to fear) among the faithful.
BTW, how did that fear/hate thing work on the port deal? Be careful what you ask for…
…and the right wing meme continues!
I see that tonight Tweety (aka chris matthews) will have a BIG segment on poligamy. This after a similar segment was broadcast less than 24 hours before, on the same channel by the even more conservative tucker carlson.
The jackass MSM media, including phillip, just swallow whatever bush/rove puts in their mouth, dont they? How’s it taste, tucker? phillip? tweety?
Could scarborough be far behind? Stay tuned…same moonbat time, same moonbat channel. Or for the alternative…fux news? Lou Dobbs? KWCH? ROFLMQAO!!!!!
You know – What upsets me is the way society has corrupted the fine sounding word GAY and it’s beautiful meaming of happyness into a lifestyle that is so offensive to many people.
Rage… last time I checked: my children could no longer say the pledge of allegiance, prayers are not allowed, nor prayer groups, (in the public schools) they can no longer celebrate the Christmas holiday it must now be called the “Winter Holiday” so as not to offend those who do not believe in Christ. So who again is running things?????
I didn’t, as a Christian (who also happens to be a Mormon), ask for, vote for or even have a say in these things being taken away from my family, or our society. I believe your very biased opinion is colored more by what you want to believe than truth. When you talk about the rights being had and the government being run by the “Christians” I believe you forget about the filth that we now live in. TV can play anything they want now as long as they rate it. Porn can be sold in any business that has the proper documentation. I didn’t ask for this or vote for it. I know my spouse didn’t either, nor the rest of my family… so who again is running things???
I am not afraid of the gay community. I have a cousin, whom I dearly love, that is gay. I wish more for him. I hurt for him and the life he has chosen but I love him no less. He doesn’t scare me, nor does any gay person. What does scare me is people not seeing the right and wrong in a situation. If we legalize gay marriage, where does the family system gain it support? I think a very good point was made about having a gay divorce where children are involved. Which mom do they go to? No I am not saying that children should always go to the mom, I believe fathers have just as much right to raise their children. How does this effect the future. I think that is the point. The world was destroyed once because no one could look past their selfish desires. Whether that was more then one lover (same race or not), sex with children, sex with animals, sex with whatever, they destroyed themselves and everything that was once good. Noah warned them they didn’t listen…. With every new ‘Christian’ right that is lost I can feel the rain…. Drop by drop…—–
i meant to say “same sex or not” not race. opps!!
i meant to say “same sex or not” not race. opps!!
rockl,
Your comment is valid because Christian teachings also contain prohibitions against race mixing.:)
V.L.R.B!!
NOAH????
You ARE kidding right?
Rock you would call me lost. I don’t see things the way you do. Thing is, your post seems to indicate a lack of tolerance for views other than your own.
If you truly believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old and was saved by an old man with a big boat full of animals, well……sorry but I would call you a nut. Thing is I got all kinds of tolerance for nuts……as long as they don’t try to get me to be one.
Your child can pray in school. If anyone stops them you let ME know. I’ll be right there. There can be and must NOT ever be organized or disruptive prayer. I think you are more concerned about making my kid say your prayers.
Pledge of Allegiance? That is a sworn oath. I do not think we have any buisiness having small children swear oaths. Particularly when the oath uses words like “allegiance” and “indivisible” and other words that small children cannot comprhend.
Don’t like what’s on TV? I have the same problem sometimes. Are you familiar with the on and off switch? Changing channels is also helpful. But……maybe you are more concerned that others viewing habits more closely reflect yours.
Sanctity of marriage? Nevermind……already covered upthread.
Gay people choose to be that way? Oh that’s right. Your beliefs are generally geared toward convincing folks that if they are suffering it is THEIR fault. If only they believed and lived as you tell them they would be happy.
You made some good points.. however i noticed that you did not comment on some points is that because no matter what you say the truth is the fact.. ie the “winter holiday” instead of christmas.. see this is my point.. your right i can turn off the tv as i do often but why should my rights to have something of value be taken away so they can put something else on???I guess maybe I could be a nut for somethings but I don’t believe that because I believe different then you it makes me one. I am not forcing my ideas on you or my beliefs, but I do get sick of others forcing theirs on me.
Also i do not care if your children say prayers or not, it is not my right to force anyone to do that nor would i try, but i think it is wrong that everything that has a christian center to it is forced out. what if i want a prayer time for my children, it is the same as reading time, not every child has to do, not even mine if they don’t want to but to have it not be allowed in taking away my rights.
as far as your comment that my beliefs are geared toward convincing folks that suffering is there fault, you are correct any time we suffer for our actions not what we are given we are indeed responsible… however I do not believe or desire to tell people what is going to make them happy. my entire point which it seems you missed is there has to be a system to life… it can’t just be a free for all.. no matter how fun you think that might be
Rock?
Christmas has as its origins an ancient Roman holiday called Saturnalia.You can read about it if you like. Winter break is appropriate and does not exclude anyone.
TV programming is the province of what folks want to watch. If there are no programs that you like, it is not that they are “taking the place” of your programs. It is lack of popular interest in your programs.
Prayer or “reading time” at school? Whose prayer? Yours? Will there be separate groups? You can of course share your bible reading at home.
See you make my point for me. You do believe if someone feels oppressed or marginalized that it is their fault. Thing is, that gives you an awful lot of power. It also means you always get to be right. Not a good combination I think.
Don’t I remember something in the bible about pride?
I think there was also the subject of judgement……
Well said, JR.
Rock, I haven’t heard a child yet complain about a Winter Party, a Spring Party, a Fall Party, or any other. They don’t seem to care what it’s called as long as they get their parties. It’s the parents who are up in arms, afraid their religious teachings aren’t being followed in public schools.As far as prayer in school is concerned, as long as tests are given in school, there will be prayer. Silent prayer from the heart, as it should be.
And please remember that there are also people who are members of some branches of the Christian faith that don’t celebrate Christian holidays or any other. Could it be that they, too, were involved in the dissolution of the religious titles of the parties?
Rock – last time I checked private prayer IS allowed, bible-study groups after school ARE allowed. I attended MidNight mass last Christmas and was NOT arrested.
hehehe
There ya go, in black and white. Seventy percent of kansans could have written what rockl wrote.
And we wonder why we are the laughing stock of the nation. And we wonder why kansas is bleeding population.
Ya know, they still celebrate christmas in my school. They still say prayers and the pledge of allegiance at our schools and they say them in two languages at democrat meetings in kansas.
And when your kids are in school, they cant pray in private? Why, because it is all about the SHOW of prayer? They cant bow their heads before they eat unless SOMEONE ELSE CAN SEE AND HEAR THEM? It really is all about the show and all about making others submit, isnt it?
And using the bible to legislate? Isnt that theocracy? So why not make divorce illegal? How about denying known adulterers the right to marry?
Hell, being gay didnt even make the top “commandments”. But straight adultry sure did. Why not go after THAT very clear are real threat to THE FAMILY. Catch too many straight people in the net?
The last time I checked, divorce was the leading cause of the breakup of straight families, not gay marriage.
“If we legalize gay marriage, where does the family system gain it support?” I am laughing my ass off now. If THE FAMILY is so shaky that my marriage RIPS the supports from it and it collapses…I am laughing too hard to finish that sentence. Your family must be really fragile.
If your marriage is that weak dude, you are to be pitied, not scorned. I mean, gay marriage is illegal NOW so what is your excuse for the sorry way the churches have handled the morality of marriage?
And since gay marriage already doesnt exist, who do you blame now for the demise of THE FAMILY. Generalissimo Franco is still dead…
You straight folks can still get married while drunk in las vegas in front of an elvis impersonater.
But of course, GAY marriage destroys the sanctity of straight marriage. It couldnt be the fault of STRAIGHT PEOPLE that STRAIGHT marriage is such an abysmal failure by any standard.
“there has to be a system to life” I have systems in my life. It is not a free for all. I dont need a make believe all powerful friend to tell me what is right and wrong. My systems just dont have anything to do with your fairy tales and fanatasies.
Dont you really mean life has to have YOUR systems? Or what, the second flood will come? You and terry, joe and fred will turn into pillars of salt? ROFLMAO
Boogy boogy boogy. Noah is coming to get you all if you dont repent now. You may show god your repentence for screwing up your own marriages by passing a constitutional amendment to stop others from marrying.
Yep, I think I got that message from god too! NOT!
I’ll take my own risks with my own soul on the miniscule chance there really is a god. You should watch out for your own soul as such activity would no doubt leave you less time to worry about mine.
But if the truth be told, it’s christian assholes like you that worry me, not some scary but still mythical god.
” How does this effect the future. I think that is the point.”
So rock, how about these points.
How do current births out of wedlock and divorces of straight people affect the future? How do YOUR abandoned kids, the millions of children in foster care, affect our future? How does YOUR increase in domestic violence affect our future? How do YOUR broken homes affect our future?
Arent all the above problems largely created by straight people?
What do you straight christians propose to do about those things now that the queers have been put in their place?
What other answers do you get through your pipeline to god? Do any of them involve other constitutional amendments?
Enquiring minds really want to know…
BBBBOOOOGGGEEEEERRRRRR!
BOOGER!
I will add this to ksgirl’s question. I am straight, married almost 35 years – one marriage. How does a gay couple down the street threaten my marriage of my family? NOT AT ALL!!!!!
By the way, I think there are many more passages from Christ about greed than about sex.
Uh farmgrrl?(as I peek out from under the table I dived under during the barrage)
I think you got him.
Well said, Frmgirl.
As I recall, the question was originallly the directed at me. I suspect this was due my parenthetical reference to Utah (which I almost deleted, but deliberately kept, in the hopes of drawing a self-identified Mormon into the discussion).
Mission accomplished. The injured tone was (unfortunately) expected, if not intended.
But KFG has a far more personal stake in this than I do. So be it.
At any rate, I’ve been drinking, and I’m very, very tired (I wouldn’t even know if I was on fire at this point, JR), so I’d rather not pull a Blogfart if I can help it.
I’ll try to answer you in detail tommorrow if I can, Rock. One quick question: Has occurred to you for the briefest moment that the “Christians” you’re aligning yourself with might not have your best interests in mind?
“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?”
— James Madison (From “A Memorial and Remonstrance,” though most websites seem to miss it, for some reason).
Hee hee, sorry JR. I thought I was using a rifle, not a shotgun!
But I guess reading that was kinda like drinking out of a fire hose.
Rage is right. I do have a personal stake in this.
Yes you do have a personal stake Farmgrrl and I admire your passion to fight for it.I’m right there in the battle with ya. That is why when Rock appeared with that on a neglected thread I took him? on.
(shaking my head)
I enjoyed knocking that guy? down a few pegs. hell you went thermonuclear on him!
Rock,If you were THE rock, I would be all aflutter. But you don’t come close, now, do you. Try thinking of life as a series of “Things that affect my well being.”
Are you afraid of gay people? If so, they affect your well being. Do men that marry more that one woman rob you of your one night stands? Then they affect your well being. Do parties thrown without an invite to you leave you depressed and lonely? Then they affect your well being. Do people who consider different religions than you make you feel as if they are against you? Then they affect your well being. Do people who voice opinions you disagree with give you pause for thought, and make you think you might NOT be correct all the time? Then they affect your well being.
If all the above are true, you must be one sad human being. Then again, if they are NOT true, none of the above should bother you in the least. So to your gay cousin, you should not hurt for him, but rejoice for him. He’s a human being with the same frailties we all have.
It really saddens me when people like you say they “hurt” for people not of their beliefs. Hurt for yourself, and your bigotry. The rest is unneeded and unwanted.
You say you had no voice in the laws banishing prayer from schools, along with other so-called rights the Christian community seems to think all people of this country should follow. Well, dear, you did: it’s called voting. And the people YOU elected selected the Supreme Court justices who then interpreted the laws that made it so.
My dear friend, ksfarmgrrl, said it most eloquently when she said, “How do current births out of wedlock and divorces of straight people affect the future? How do YOUR abandoned kids, the millions of children in foster care, affect our future? How does YOUR increase in domestic violence affect our future? How do YOUR broken homes affect our future?” What do gay and polygamous marriages have to do with any of that? Isn’t THAT something you should be more worried about? Take care of the people IN trouble before you even think about taking care of the people who cause NO trouble. They obviously neither need nor want your help.
That’s it . . . MOTHER has a migraine and a little Capn’ Morgan will take care of that. Then I’ll get an adult beverage.
Damned eloquent MOTHER
Rock?
It’s me again.
I hope you are getting a healthy dose of what other people think. Your post (maybe your first here,,,,and if so welcome) suggested a pretty selfcentered or yourparticulartakeonreligion take on matters.
You are taking a pounding ROCK. Learn from that. Not everyone believes as you do. And even if your God tells you in your heart that you are right, remember from what is posted to you here that you live in a world of folks who may not affirm let alone embrace your take on things.You at least for now have to live in that world. Try a little more understanding and a little less judgement.
I hope you will not shy away and retreat. I hope you will post again. But when you do, share your “message” don’t foist it.
Thank you all for the support!
Rockl, we’re here, we’re queer, get used to it. A closet is way to small of a space for adult human beings to live.
A lot of queers are not gonna take those statements anymore without responding and calling you out. Be prepared to defend your positions with logic, not fairy tales.
I mean, when I speak out, what are ya gonna do to me?
Refuse me equal protection under the law? Get me fired? Beat me? Harrass me verbally? Scorn me, disparage my family and publicly damn me to hell?
Kill me?
Heheh. I have been forged in the fire, so bring it on. All of the above except the last one have already been done. It still hasnt stopped me or thousands of other gays from speaking the truth.
A little advise rockl, you dont want to make me a martyr by killing me. And killing me is the only thing that hasnt been done…yet!
BOOGER!!
Ok, first let me clarify that I happen to be a women not a man, and yes I am getting a health dose of what some ( in the minority ? ) seem to think . I am glad that people stick up for what they believe, as I will. No my marriage is not fragile.
Yes, you are correct that marriage and family have taken severe beatings in the last couple of decades… from all sides. The gay lifestyle didn’t just happen, it has been PART of the demise of the family. For you (or me) to believe that it is the main cause would indeed be silly and ill founded. It is however a part of our society and it is changing the way things are viewed, thus helping a societal “free for all”.
As we let go of standards and embrace this new way of thinking, we allow more of what was normal to slip away. Let me clarify that not all gay couples do this. Many do and there are indeed committed relationships that last. I am happy for these couples. I personally do not understand this but I am not going to say it doesn’t happen. I guess my question is when is it enough??? Do we turn away from everything we have been taught to be right because someone tells us it’s not for them? Because it’s not the way they think? If we lose everything by doing so what do we have left except chaos??
When a person decides that they have a right to marry someone who is of their same sex whose business is it, mine? Nope. When they want this marriage to be welcomed and recognized, as a way that the world should look at marriage, then it is wrong. When a man or women decides that he or she needs extra spouses because they want more of whatever it is wrong. When a man or woman want to have a relationship with a child, no matter why, it is wrong. When a man or women want to have a relationship with an animal it is wrong. I do not see in gray the way that you conveniently do.
Does this make me a judge? I don’t think it does for me anymore then it does you. If you don’t like what I am saying you blast me (your right). I even respect you for having the fight in you to stand up for your beliefs. You don’t do the same for others though. That’s sad. (Hypocritical?)
Also I am still very anxious to hear back about how you think the family will perpetuate with gay couples. No one has answered that question directly. I appreciate you giving me your insight….
Rockl a mother of 4 and a wife of one who will not apologize for her beliefs..
JRare you serious??? is that really what you think of people who don’t agree with your lifestyle?? Kill you… beat you… be real..I no more want to kill or beat or damn or any of the other silly things you have said to you or anyone else that believes the way you do. I just don’t want you to force what you believe on me or my children. I don’t want you to be denied life, or a job, or even your lifestyle if you want it… just don’t change what we the majority need or want either. If you need a male to keep you happy then as long as he is an adult who agrees then have at it… it’s your life… your future . Just don’t expect me to embrace your lifestyle and call it the future.
Rock
I think your last was for farmgrrl but you addressed it J. R.I’m sure it was a simple mistake.
THANK YOU, There is no one on this forum I would rather be mistaken for. I have more to say to you since I was kinda your first contact here and got this last round going. But Farmgrrl deserves first go at you.
I’m a white straigt male so I don’t know alot about oppresion or prejudice. But I will fight it where I see it. And I see it in you.
I am glad you continue to post.
Sorry JR
Mother, to assume all that you do shows that you use 1. more emotion and 2. possibly liquor (as you so mentioned ) to respond as you do. I do not have one night stands. I am faithful to my marriage commintment and the man I chose to spend the rest of my life with. I have a very active social life. Any religion that a person wants to believe in is their right. I have no desire to take that from them. I love to hear others opinions and I believe myself very open minded. The cousin I mentioned earlier has taken me to a drag show. It is not anything I would normally go to but it was amazing to see some of the talent that was there and costumes were amazing. The reason I hurt for him is this: I see the drugs and the “free love” that he and his mate use. I see how it hurts him when he sober. Maybe that why you drink as you do.
What affects my well being is the thinking that because my views are different then yours I am wrong. Because I do not wish to take a woman to bed I am a bigot. You want to blame the demise of the family on me. I am all of a sudden responsible for all the children who are abused, or the divorce rate, or the affairs of the world. Are you truly saying that the only ones who cheat, beat, rape, molest, hurt, lie steal, use and hurt others are straight? REALLY??? (Can you offer empirical proof or do you just have emotions to go on?)
I have had several people whom I call friends that have been cheated on by their gay partner and left with children they both wanted. Now children are left with out a parent and guess what: they are gay!!! Surprising I know…. yet it is true.
So again my question is when is enough, enough????
It is gonna be REAL interesting watching you evolve (sorry I know that’s a bad word) as a poster here Rock. I cannot wait to have your take on other issues. Do be forewared that your…..self “righteousness” (my perception) is gonna get you a LOT of attention.
JRwhy do my beliefs make me self righteous… how are they different then any other expressed here??? Who am I judging?? Who am I deneying personally??? who am I attacking…
JR I will enjoy the ride… thank you
KFG,
I think that homosexuals should live their lives to the utmost, They should not be killed, beaten or fired from jobs for their sexual orientation. I am a devout SSPX Catholic and I don’t agree with or understand homosexuality but in the end that will be between you and God.
You have said that this is mainly about “stuff” as far as you are concerned and that is reasonable. You should have the right to will property and visit your partner in the hospital and such. However, in Canada and Europe there are calls for governments to strip Christian churches of their tax exempt status if they refuse to perform religious marriages for homosexuals. Ho do you feel about that?
Too often the quest for “minority rights” leads to tyranny and evil like forced busing, set asides, affirmative action and other heavy handed actions taken by government to address grievances. It is often true, sadly, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
V.L.R.B!!
“just don’t want you to force what you believe on me or my children.”
So who is forcing you or them to be gay? Who is forcing you or them to get married.
You are such a weaking you and your kids cant even LOOK at us?
And YOU get to say what is normal? And moral?
HEHEHEHEHE
again with slams and no answers is this what you are best at???
I’m getting to you rockl.
Ian:
“However, in Canada and Europe there are calls for governments to strip Christian churches of their tax exempt status if they refuse to perform religious marriages for homosexuals. Ho do you feel about that?”
I think that sucks. I think that is wrong. If civil marriage is available, no one is forced to marry in a church. The church should never marry someone they dont want to marry. They just shouldnt stand in the way of equality in civil marriage.
I think that canadian thing you mention will never hold up here. If that was the case, someone would have long ago sued the catholic church for not marrying divorced people when divorce is legal.
Red herring. Scare tactic.
“I don’t agree with or understand homosexuality but in the end that will be between you and God.
You have said that this is mainly about “stuff” as far as you are concerned and that is reasonable.”
Thank you for allowing me that Ian :) Really. I’ll take my chances with the mythical god. I just want ALL the STUFF benefits, the civil benefits, that straight people get.
rockl can tell her kids all day long how bad we are. The church can rail against us and throw brimstone all day long. As I have said before, churches can dance the hokey pokey and sacrifice marshmallows for all I care.
I am not trying to take anyone’s right to believe and to worship away. I just want the church out of my life, and that includes barriers to equal protection under the law. Other people may submit to their churches however they want.
I dont want anyone’s children converted. I dont even think that is possible. The church cant make me straight any more than I can make Ian gay.
Render unto ceasar what is ceasar. You can do whatever you like in your churches. And you can take your chances with god on that too! :)
No Ksfarmgrrl I wish you were… I love a good debate..actually I am quite disappointed… I really would love to have you answer some of my questions.. I would love to have some new way to see things and perhaps open your eyes as well.. Do you really think that if you have 1 or 10 female lovers that you endanger me or my children or cause me to quake at night. do you really think if i feared you i would respond to you or go places in Kansas with my cousin and his lover.. gays do not scare me.. have it… do what you are going to do…but don’t expect because you view things the way you do I have to… by the way thank you for calling me rockl i was getting tired of being called rock!! lol
farmgrrl I am curious about your last post to Ian. ” and that includes barriers to equal protection under the law.” are you not protected because you are gay? I would really like to understand how that is so…
Ian do they not have these rights to will property, to visit those they love in the hospital are they denied this right because they are gay??? Please clarify
When it comes to the matters of the heart, I think the state needs to quit micro-managing.
I see one glaring contridiction in polgamy arguement…Hue Hefnerwhy is he ok but a guy that marries and loves two or more women is bad ?
I am tempted to start this out like saturday night live. “jane you ignorant…”
rockl says “I love to hear others opinions and I believe myself very open minded.”
I’ll just let the humor of that stand alone.
“I see the drugs and the “free love” that he and his mate use. I see how it hurts him when he sober.”
So now being gay CAUSES drug use? ROFLMAO…yep. There is a good argument against gay marriage. Arent you the one who said we cant take the actions of a few and say they are the actions of the group?
MOTHER, you damn drunk :) arent you straight? Of course, having a drink negates EVERYTHING mother said.
Rockl,I think you are drunk on religion and political power and that negates everything YOU say!
see my first comment above.
“The gay lifestyle didn’t just happen, it has been PART of the demise of the family.”
Uh, yeah, homosexuality DOES just happen. To about one in every ten people. Gay people have been around for all of history. Even during the times that the FAMILY was strong and healthy.
Is there ANY logical causation between gay people and your so-called demise of the family? NO. Correlation, which you also have not proven, is not causation. DUH.
see first comment.
“Because I do not wish to take a woman to bed I am a bigot.”
Holy cow, where did that come from? DEFINATELY see first comment on that one.
As for the so-called “demise of the family”…
The economic need for two paychecks in families is frequently blamed for the demise of the ozzie and harriett family.
I dont see a constitutional amendment in the works from christians to ban wives from working. Why not rockl? If you are on a mission to save the family, why not this?
And perhaps the grand champion in your feeble stabs at MOTHER:
“You want to blame the demise of the family on me. I am all of a sudden responsible for all the children who are abused, or the divorce rate, or the affairs of the world. Are you truly saying that the only ones who cheat, beat, rape, molest, hurt, lie steal, use and hurt others are straight?”
You really are just like jane.
Get a grip on proportion rockl. We are only 1/10 of the population. How much mayhem can we create, and how much do STRAIGHT people create?
Do you deny that ALL the problems listed above are ALMOST ALWAYS caused by straight people? Are there jerks who are gay? of course. But if you want to blame us even remotely equally for the above named problems, damn, you NEED a drink.
No one is blaming you personally rockl for all the sins of all the straight people. Just dont deny the obvious. Obvious things like ALL divorces are among straight folks since there is no such thing as gay marriage.
Dont deny MOST child abuse, both physical and sexual is done by straight people. In fact, mostly by white, straight, self-identified christian men. You look up the damn statistics for yourself.
Dont deny that you BREEDERS are responsible for children without a home. Of course that is true since you point out the family cant reproduce with two members of the same sex. Who is having all those unwanted children? Gay people? You cant have it both ways rockl.
Why are those children of breeders not ALL adopted into straight homes? SURELY you dont want gays to adopt them if you think kids arent even strong enough to LOOK at us or know about us without becoming gay.
“What affects my well being is the thinking that because my views are different then yours I am wrong.”
That is just stupid rockl. What is wrong is not your religion or your belief in fairy tales.
What is WRONG is you making your religion the law of the land, even when, ESPECIALLY when, other religions hold different beliefs, and some of us dont want ANY religion doing our thinking for us.
Making the law according to your personal religious belief, and then forcing the rest of us to submit to those civil laws is EXACTLY WHAT THE TALIBAN DOES!!!!!
THAT is what is wrong rockl.
“I am not forcing my ideas on you or my beliefs, but I do get sick of others forcing theirs on me.”
Given christian efforts to make the law in your own image rockl, I can only point out AGAIN who is doing the pushing here.
You said to JR: “why do my beliefs make me self righteous… Who am I judging??
I think the answers to that are self evident. Your beliefs dont make you self righteous, the constant repetition that yours are the only CORRECT beliefs makes you self righteous.
“how are they different then any other expressed here???”
Uh, I am not trying to make my beliefs into laws that are unfair to you. I am not trying to make you live in the shadows. I recognize your civil rights. I think that makes our beliefs VERY different as expressed here.
“Who am I deneying personally???”
Uh, if you voted in favor of the hate amendment, you have personally denied the benefits of civil marriage to my girlfriend and I and about a hundred of our closest friends. You denied the six people who will be my dinner guests tonight. You denied the pursuit of happiness to ANYONE who doesnt agree with your religion’s position on gay marriage.
“who am I attacking…” I dont think that needs an answer. Just read your replies to JR, Rage, MOTHER, me. Listen to your own attitudes.
You said this to RAGE of all posters:
“I believe your very biased opinion is colored more by what you want to believe than truth.”
That is just about the most blatent case of the pot calling the kettle black than I have seen in a very long time. Good job rockl.
Did you make any other points you want me to address? I had to scroll through a lot to get to the few points, so I might have missed something.
And speaking of unaddressed points…
Rockl says she: “just don’t want you to force what you believe on me or my children.”
So who is forcing you or them to be gay? Who is forcing you or them to get married? What laws am I advocating that restrict your equal protection under the law?
What are gay people trying to stop you from doing, or believeing, or trying to make you do against your will?
You are such a weaking that you and your kids cant even LOOK at us?
And YOU get to say what is normal? And moral?
And back to the begining, this makes you open minded how?
Woof. I tire of this sport.
JR, please take the field!
Rock 1
I could take you at your word. I could believe that you are content to believe as you do and leave others alone.
I could. But I can see between your words and so I do not take you at your word.
You are already exposing that you are not in fact open to debate. And thus far you are not doing a very good job debating. See, the very first dodge of a closed minded person and the very first retreat of a poor debater is to call your oponent names.
“again with slams and no answers, is that what you are best at”
KFG can fight her own battles.
I got a bone or two of my own.Rock1? I’m an atheist. I do not believe in your god. So you start from a disadvantage. Since everything you believe and practice is based on something I do not believe in, I cannot find your posistions valid. From your point of view, you are divinely guided. Thus you cannot even question your own preconceptions. You simply accept them on faith. This has the added benefit as I posted before that you always get to be right….and rigtheous.That is the very essence of a closed mind.
But I’ll answer the question that brought you here,
“How much is enough?”
I bet that question has been asked alot.
No doubt it was asked when black Americans were liberated from slavery. It was asked I’m sure when women (see it hits home sometimes) were elevated from the stautus of property and given the right to vote. It got asked really loudly when blacks were OF ALL THINGS allowed to drink from the same water fountains and attend the same schools as white kids.
Starting to get the idea?Now YOU ask that question.
Do you do it out of fear? If so it’s rather stupid. I don’t think you have anything to fear physically from a lesbian or an atheist or naughty pictures on the TV.
You will protest this. But you ask this question for the reason it has always been asked. Fear…..born of PREJUDICE. That’s OK that makes you human.Evolution favored the prejudiced. It kept tight groups together and outsiders at distance. TOLERANCE of the unknown could get ya killed.All these millenia later, that predjudice bred into usstays with us.
You are concerned for your family. That is good. It too is a primal survival instinct. But it is not incumbent on society (at least not yet) to behave according to your own pesonal defenses against things that make you uncomfortable. And until you can accept that and learn to live and let live, you are a threat to the freedom of others and society at large.And you must be seen as such.
Think of it this way.
I am sure you would not want me to tell you how to live or what to believe.
Neither do I want to live by your rules.
God is so far silent on the subject.
Rockl, you are too funny. I meant I am getting to you AFTER I REPLY TO IAN.
Of course, no one can “get to” anyone as closed minded as you. I wouldnt even try…lololol. I push enough rocks up the hill over and over.
rock1 – a spouse is allowed access in a hospital that is denied to others, including friends. Similarly, inheritance favors a spouse as opposed to others. There are a whole host of legal things that go along with the Caeser “marriage”
Ouch I wanna retract “I cannot see your views as valid” I should have said, I cannot see your views as born of reason,but rather blind faith.” I DO consider them valid and I DO respect your beliefs. I apologize emphatically for any hint that I do not consider your views valid.
Your last two questions sound suspiciously like nathan, and I caught him using name “barb”. I am starting to wonder about gertie and rockl.
I am denied equal protection under the law because I can be fired, legally, for being gay. I am denied equal protection under the law that allows civil marriage and its accompanying benefits.
If I die without a will, my property goes to the state.
If you die without a will it goes to your husband.
I cant visit my spouse or make medical decisions without a bunch of legal fees and documents making me the legal decision maker.
You just have to show your wedding ring in most hospitals.
The law protects your right to your spouse’s social security benefits. No amount of lawyers or documents will give my spouse and I equal rights.
If you and your husband divorce, without a prenup, you have access to the courts to mediate your civil disputes.
If my spouse and I divorce without a prenup, I get no potection under the law. In a word, I am screwed. You and your property are protected by even COMMON law.
I could go on, but why? I am sure you already know why I am wrong on these points. That would be very nathan like of you.
There are over 1000 legal and civil benefits that come with civil marriage. In kansas, it will now take a constitutional amendment to give me equal access to those benefits.
Dont believe me? Go to the HRC website. And no, I am not giving you a link. Even a grade schooler could find it.
You people are amazing. If people like Rock and the remainder of us myopic Kansans are so neanderthal and infringe upon your precious way of life so much, why dont you join the population hemmorage and find some gay, liberal utopia to live in? Someplace where the taxes are high, there is no military (or very little of it) ‘alternative’ lifestyles are the norm and you dont have to listen to anyone claiming to believe in any sort of God?
Could it be the reason is because you truly do want to evangelize those of us who do not accept you? You want to force feed us a diet of the swill you call freedom? Or is it bacause your paradise doesnt exist and your frustration at that fact lead you to try to ram it upon the rest of us?
If our taxes did not go to subsidize or support the things that we dont believe in then you would have no argument from us on gay marriage or anything else you happen to feel is a right. But when those taxes are used to support views and beliefs that run counter to our own, you will, very deservedly, get a battle. If your taxes went to support a specifically Christian initiative (i.e Pres. Bush’s faith based initiative drivel) then I would expect you to clamor raucously about it.
Our country is about liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As long as you dont take government money to make that pursuit, you are welcome to do what you like.
KFG it seems you have missed my point entirely… i know that you say being gay is not a choice (maybe it’s not, not gay don’t know) my question is this if we allow the change in marriage where do we stop it…
The facts are correct and sad but none the less true, straight people (as you like to call us) have caused a great deal of harm on the family… never have i denied this.but you have yet to answer how the family exist with the gay couple.You keep bringing up how me and my children are afraid to even look at you… do you only read what you want to??? there is no fear of you nor is there the desire to take away your rights but you insisting on taking away ours with your choices. You say,” I don’t want to tell you how to think”… yet you put down with your “boogey” everything that the general population holds dear.
If you want to have a girlfriend and you can be happy good for you, that is your choice, that is your life, i don’t want to take that away from you, but do you realize that every standard we let go of gets us closer to chaos… what about the sicko that really loves his youngest daughter… no really he didn’t chose to love her he just does and now they have a right to a relationship.. It happens. Are we going to go on with that next, or the sick women who really loves her dog… where do we draw the line????
You are right the minority is not the reason we are screwed up… the demise of the family… but what happens when you have what you want… and you all get to have divorces and children out of wedlock, when you have more affairs … when you have all the rights you think you want do you not think that the numbers of abuse and divorce and unwanted children in the gay community will go up??? It will…
You act as though wanting to change what marriage is wont matter. Every time something changes there is the chaos that follows. does this not concern you?? Do you not worry about the impact that it will have? Or is more important for you to have your stuff. I did not marry because I wanted stuff. I married because I wanted to have a family with the man I love.You are no more open minded then me. You see it your way and you will take whatever you can to change things no matter what the cost. Because I hold different standards I am a fairytale believer, I am afraid of you and now must hide my children in the closet… I am lead only by what others tell me to believe I have no mind no will of my own… I am robot controlled my a myth… and you say you do not attack you only want what you have the right to…. Funny
KFG I am sorry I did not know these rights were denied you. I do not agree with any of that.. I will go and check out that website because I am curious.. also I do wish people would quit thinking me male .. I am not Nathan nor do I know of him. thank you for the info.
“why dont you join the population hemmorage and find some gay, liberal utopia to live in?”
You mean like the blue states in this letter murphy?
Dear Red States…
We’ve decided we’re leaving. We intend to form our own country, and we’re taking the other Blue States with us.In case you aren’t aware, that includes Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and all the Northeast. We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation, and especially to the people of the new country of New California.To sum up briefly: You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states.We get stem cell research and the best beaches. We get Elliot Spitzer. You get Ken Lay.
We get the Statue of Liberty. You get Dollywood. We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.We get Harvard. You get Ole’ Miss.We get 85 percent of America’s venture capital and entrepreneurs. You get Alabama.
We get two-thirds of the tax revenue, you get to make the red states pay their fair share.Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than theChristian Coalition’s, we get a bunch of happy families. You get abunch of single moms.Please be aware that Nuevo California will be pro-choice andanti-war, and we’re going to want all our citizens back from Iraq atonce. If you need people to fight, ask your evangelicals. They havekids they’re apparently willing to send to their deaths for nopurpose, and they don’t care if you don’t show pictures of theirchildren’s caskets coming home. We do wish you success in Iraq, andhope that the WMDs turn up, but we’re not willing to spend ourresources in Bush’s Quagmire.With the Blue States in hand, we will have firm control of 80 percent of the country’s fresh water, more than 90 percent of the pineapple and lettuce, 92 percent of the nation’s fresh fruit, 95 percent of America’s quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners) 90 percent of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most of the U.S. low-sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools, plus Harvard, Yale,Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.With the Red States, on the other hand, you will have to cope with 88 percent of all obese Americans (and their projected health care costs), 92 percent of all U.S. mosquitoes, nearly 100 percent of the tornadoes, 90 percent of the hurricanes, 99 percent of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100 percent of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you. YOU GET KANSAS!!!Additionally, 38 percent of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62 percent believe life is sacred unless we’re discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44 percent say that evolution is only a theory, 53 percent that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and…
61 percent of you crazy b*****ds believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties.By the way, we’re taking the good pot, too. You can have that dirtweed they grow in Mexico.Peace out,Blue States
Ya I’d hate to live there and miss out on the fun of “converting” you!
OMG, the “ick” factor of that is overwhelming.
Murphy says:
“But when those taxes are used to support views and beliefs that run counter to our own, you will, very deservedly, get a battle.”
I want my money back from the military, murphy!
All of us pay taxs for things we dont agree about. Grow up murphy.
So then madam you have yet to answer the question of why you dont go there.
You seem to be complaining louder then I about the way your taxes are used. They are used to fight in Iraq and that is very obviously an issue for you. They are used to subsidize heterosexual marriages in the form of tex benefits and from your post to Rock that rankles you as well.
Do you mean to tell me that you are going to take your own advice and grow up or are you going to continue your little gay temper tantrum? Your logic is as flawed as your worldview.
If the above mentioned states were to vanish, the remainder of our country would far surpass you within a generation in all of the areas you mentioned. Why is that? Well, for starters, since we are not gay, we can have children. Since we are pro life, we dont abort them. Our population would continue to increase while yours would decrease. The only way you can get people to your side is to convert them. Hm. Is that too religious a word for you? I think not.
So you see, the argument that you dont want to make people see your point of view is disingenuous at best. You are on a religious crusade. The difference between yours and those in the 12th century is methods and the name of your god. That is all.
“But you have yet to answer how the family exist with the gay couple.”
That question is so stupid I didnt bother to answer it. I didnt think you were serious.
Do you only define the family as a married, never separated or divorced, mommy, daddy, and 2.5 kids born within wedlock?
Then you are completely out of touch with the real world. That is no longer the model for most families. You can look that up in the u.s. census report.
If we cant reproduce, without alternative insemination, surrogates, or adoption does that mean we cant have families of choice? That would exclude some straight families too!
Family members love each other, protect and defend each other, share resources and provides comfort and support to other family members. I think my partner and I and our extended family qualify under that definition.
My mom and dad adopted me because they couldnt reproduce. Does that mean they werent a married couple? If I am not their biological daugher, does that mean they were not my parents?
If they had been unmarried and then adopted me, would that have made us less than a family?
You really need to get out more rockl.
Well all, I am heading home. It has been real, and it has been fun. My gas guzzling car with a v8 engine awaits and I’m thinking a steak sounds good tonight, preferably endangered seal, as does some freaky great sex with my wife. I’ll no doubt thank my God tonight that my mind is (in your exalted opinions) ruined.
Have a great evening while I think of more ways to support your rights to make idiots of yourselves. If your thoughts elicit more than a passing yawn from me tomorrow I just may look you back up. Maybe we can have a lively discussion about concealed carry or lack of school choice… I imagine this thread will get closed sooner or later as it is now way off topic.
Well all have a good night.. I can see that you see it your way and I will see it mine…God bless to those who believe he is more then a myth
Rockl, you are wearing thin.
“just don’t want you to force what you believe on me or my children.”
How am I forcing what I believe on anyone else? That is what made me believe you are so ignorant you think just having your kids LOOK at me will put them in some kind of jeopardy.
“yet you put down with your “boogey” everything that the general population holds dear.”
heheheh. Yea rock. Can you say tyranny of the majority? Because the majority believes it that makes it right?
At one time the majority of the people of the u.s wanted to kill or at least outlaw mormanism. Why didnt your people just go along with that tyranny of the majority?
I could not possibly care less about what you think, or more appropriately, what you DONT THINK.
I DO CARE about laws not being based on your religion. BIG difference if you are smart enough to see it. Or think about it.
“realize that every standard we let go of gets us closer to chaos…”
Well hell’s bell’s, lets not get rid of any standard that is BAD. By all means, lets keep tradition that is stoooooopid. It is afterall, the will of the majority.
That is the same crap said when blacks were allowed to vote, and then attend public schools and sit next to little white girls. Southerners STILL SAY segregation was a good standard.
They lso said if we sent them to school and let blacks learn to read, well, where will it stop? With them being equal? I seem to recall churches saying god wouldnt approve of that either and that slavery was good.
You’d fit right in with them rockl.
“but what happens when you have what you want… and you all get to have divorces and children out of wedlock, when you have more affairs … when you have all the rights you think you want
do you not think that the numbers of abuse and divorce and unwanted children in the gay community will go up???”
Well gee rock, couldnt you straight folks just have a few less divorces and unwanted children to make room for us? Just to even things out a little? I mean, god forbid straight people should STOP screwing up the family.
“and when you all get to have divorces and children out of wedlock, when you have more affairs”
Rockl, you are laughable.
Even without legal marriage we have all the above. Why would getting married increse these ills? Arent you the one who says marriage CURES such ills?
Oh, it cures them for straight people but not gay people? Marriage makes them worse for gays? Yikes.
“Every time something changes there is the chaos that follows.” so the truth comes out. Gay marriage isnt wrong it is just a change, and dammit, WE CANT HAVE CHANGE!!
You sound like Kay O’Connor. Letting women have the vote was a change that created chaos. Giving blacks the right to be equal created chaos. ALLOWING MORMANS TO PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION IN PEACE was a change.
But change is always bad, and well, when will it stop? I guess when the world ends rockl. If you hate change, you hate life.
“You are no more open minded then me.” Did I say I was? No..you are the one claiming the moral high ground. I am an average human being without a direct pipeline to god.
“I am a fairytale believer, I am afraid of you and now must hide my children in the closet… I am lead only by what others tell me to believe I have no mind no will of my own… I am robot controlled my a myth…”
And the incorrect part of that would be what?
You still havent answered ANY OF MY QUESTIONS. But then, neither does nathan.
Murphy, you are the best argument for why STRAIGHT people should never breed. It ruins the gene pool.
“So you see, the argument that you dont want to make people see your point of view is disingenuous at best.”
That is possibly the dumbest thing said here today, and that is a stretch. What arguement? OF COURSE I WANT PEOPLE TO SEE MY POINT OF VIEW. OF COURSE I WANT PEOPLE TO AGREE. duh.
“If the above mentioned states were to vanish, the remainder of our country would far surpass you within a generation in all of the areas you mentioned”
Lets see, in 200+ years and how many generations, you red states havent matched the prosperity or progress of the blue states.
You think it is the GAYS in the red states that hold you back?
“Well, for starters, since we are not gay, we can have children. Since we are pro life, we dont abort them. Our population would continue to increase while yours would decrease.”
ROFLMAO. How’s that “no gays no abortion thing working for kansas now? I guess you do think gays and abortion, are the reason red states lag behind in almost every catagory.
Ya know murphy, blue states grow because people move there. They want to live there. They are not bleeding population, and it is not because they have so many live births. It is because people want to live there. Unlike ks.
Can you all breed faster than kansas can bleed population? I think not….And there is the matter of the health of those left in the red states. See above.
“The only way you can get people to your side is to convert them” OMG, now I know you are off your meds. I have said many times, I cant make staight people gay any more than they can make me straight.
Why would I want to convert anyone? I dont want anymore people on our side. Too much competition for available women. Unlike the lack of competition I get from men like you.
If marrying you is the alternative to being a lesbian, I better eat my wheaties. I am gonna have lots of dates. You can expect to see lots of smiling women when you go to get your viagra prescription filled.
Rock.First, if you had mentioned your cousin was an alcoholic and a drug abuser, I would not have said what I did about you “hurting” for him. Information, or lack therof, really does matter, doesn’t it.
Second, You in no way intimated your feelings regarding gay marriage other than to say it would have a negative affect on the institution. I replied by saying in my opinion, it would not.
Third, regarding gay marriage as a start to whatever it is you think my be forthcoming in the future, does did not answer the question of what is WRONG with gay marriage. Since then, you have voiced an excellent argument, and I can relate and applaud you for it.
Forth, to insinuate that I am a drunk because a enjoy humor, as opposed to slams, does not help your cause at all. If I make reference to “adult beverages” it is because I am, in age anyway, an adult, and therefore able to enjoy them. Does everyone who partakes of the dreaded vice automatically an alcoholic in your mind? Pulleeezzzeee . . .
Fifth, God a myth? If I don’t believe homosexuality is wrong, I think God is a myth? Honey, reality is the myth, any woman knows that.
And, Ben . . . I want my tax money back also, as I oppose others spending my money:-)
Oh and murphy, the reason I dont leave?
I stay here JUST TO PISS YOU OFF!!
Isnt it funny how all these right wingers seem to have quit posting after five or so? Are they using work equipment to do personal things?
What would jesus say about that theft of time and equipment?
Hey Don? rock?
All farmgrrl wants is equal treatment under the law and for you all to keep your “morality ” to yourselves.
Oh ..uh Don? As to taxes you best worry bout somebody like me more than KFG. If I had my way you bible bangers would have your churches taxed. If you are gonna play politics ya gotta pay like every other interest group.
Well I’m semi right wing but then again sometimes I switch sides just to play devil’s advocate. But my boss knows about what I do and doesn’t care as long as my job gets done. so ;)~
Have a good night
I find the whole paranoia of certain straights about the gay issue to be rather amusing. I am straight; have been married for almost 35 years; and have never felt that kfg or anyone else is trying to “force” a gay lifestyle upon me, my wife, my son, or my grandkids.
Why are some people so insecure in their orientation that they feel threatened?
Uhhhhh where did Julie come from?
Well, looks like I showed up after the party ended (Damn! Any beer left?).
“You said this to RAGE of all posters:
‘I believe your very biased opinion is colored more by what you want to believe than truth.’”
Gee, THANKS, KFG! I’m certainly not the most polite soul here (I use dirty words too!), but I try to be fair when I can.
I was hoping to point out to Rock that the dimunition of “rights” she was talking about was, aside from being based on out-and-out falsehoods (e.g. you can’t pray in schools) is actually an argument for the morally superior to control everyone else on their own religious terms, using the government as their personal enforcement agency.
I think such people are genuinely terrified of other views because imagine their kids coming home decked in leathers clutching the latest Diecide album. And all because the society was corrupted by the evildoers! The idea that atheist kid their son’s class should not be “straightened out” by the administration–let alone have equal rights–drives them nuts, because of the influence wrongthinkers might have on society. My god! What next! (I don’t know, but you can start with killing your television. . .or just ignoring it. How long did the Book of Daniel last, huh?).
Guess what, Rock? That’s the way it works. Sorry. Something like”Family Guy” stays on the air because a lot of people find it funny as hell–me included, but Nielsen hasn’t yet asked me. . . turn it off, and set your v-chip! Then send Rupert Murdoch a nasty letter. You’ll feel better.
In the 20’s showing “serious leg” was considered “racy”! Will people be walking around naked in 2020? Probably not. But I’d buy Pepto-Bismol® stock if thought so!
I don’t want to beat a dead horse. I just would rather not have to get injured stopping some jerk from beating up a queer. . .(offensive expletive intended, Damoon).
I’m done with the thread. Have a nice day.
Still have the bad habit of leaving. . . out and not adequately proofreading. Oh well. . .at least you know it’s me! :)
Who needs prepostions anyway?
Ohhhh. . .it ain’t over at all. About 40 column inches while I was composing that. Whew!
Oh well. Pass. You’re doin’ fine, folks!
Wait. . .never mind.
You can’t make fun of me if want (sniff, sniff. . . )
Rage,Darlin’ I think you just tapped your own keg!:)And yes, I do post from home occasionally.
I think more along Liberterian lines than Republican/Democrat –depending on the issue.
Rage, I was trying to give you a compliment. Your posts are usually filled with logic and facts. I found it particularly outrageous that bible girl would question your post, given your history here of well thought out arguements backed up by facts.
Unlike rockl.
Still waiting for rockl to answer my questions…
Still waiting….
And I’m still waiting for his answer to mine …
Good morning folks…Yes I am at work and yes I am smart enough to be able to do a job and write to you, at least by boss seems to think so… lol
Mother thanks you for responding, know I guess it does not make you a drunk, I apologize.
I guess what surprises me the most is that you all think I am against the gays. I am not against gays, I do not believe that because I have a gay cousin or friends that they will molest or ruin my children. I am not afraid of gay cooties as you like to thank I am. I have gone to drag shows for goodness sake…If I was afraid of getting something on me I don’t think I would be near the place. They have their life, it is not one I chose for myself and I pray that my children do not either, but what am I going to do if they do, stop being their mother… I think not !! They are my babies and always will be.
As far as not understanding your “bitch” your right I don’t. If you write out a will you can will the things you own to anyone. Problem solved!! Talked with an attorney and though Kansas is indeed a fire at will state, (straight or gay doesn’t matter) an employer may fire anyone but to fire for no other reason then who you sleep with is called discrimination, you know the sex, race, religion thing.
Also called Wesley to see about what you claimed as far as not being able to visit with you significant other, that according to human resources and hospital policy is an untrue statement. You have as much right as I do, to be with someone you love.
If your argument is all about “stuff” and not anything but, it seems a weak one. However for the record let me state one more time… I do not want to stand in the way of you and your lover… I am not afraid of gay cooties or people… they are people… I am not for slavery…racism… I do not believe in forcing my religion down anyone’s throat… I do not believe in taking away rights you have had that you were born with…I do however worry about how changes of marriage that has been the same since the beginning of time may indeed however effect our world… If this makes me unfair in your eyes sorry…I think you asking the world to change to fit your desires are unfair as well.
KFGsorry it has been a busy morning in real estate. took longer then I thought it would to get back to you.
rock – how about separating the Eclesiastical “marriage” from the civil function and assign a different name to the civil for both gay and straight? After all, I do not go to the courthouse to get my children baptised; why should i go there for any other religious ceremony?
sounds good to me…
Rockl, you are completely full of crap. No gloves on this time gertie or nathan or scott or hank whoever the hell you are.
How stupid are you?
With all the HIPPA privacy regulations, I couldnt even find out what ROOM my lover is in, much less make medical decisions for her. If someone at wesley told you that, they are more stupid than you.
Call ‘em up, any hospital at all, and ask for info or a room number on a patient who doesnt have you SPECIFICALLY listed on record as having rights to their info. They will tell you nothing if you are not a spouse or on the info release list. And in an emergency, there IS NO release list done when the patient isnt able.
How do I know all this? I was a PATIENT in Wesley three years ago. And Via Christi or St. Francis or whatever they call themselves. Then I went to Our Lady of Loudes rehab, and guess what?
MY lover couldnt even FIND me there or get info on the phone, you idiot. She found me when I was well enough to call her in Houston. But if we were married? oh of course she could have gotten anything she wanted.
Now if the medical facilities wont even tell her my room number, what are the odds she has the same rights as a spouse? Especially for decision making.
As for being fired for being gay, you could not have POSSIBLY contacted a reputable or LICENSED lawyer, you damn liar.
“but to fire for no other reason then who you sleep with is called discrimination, you know the sex, race, religion thing.”
My point exactly rockl. Does your sentence say anything about sexual orientation? That is not the same as being fired for your sex, read GENDER, you dumbass.
Find AND POST where the non-discrimination statute in ks included sexual orientation. I guess that is why for three consecutive sessions bills have been introduced toINCLUDE sexual orientation. Because it isnt in there now.
You want the name and number of my lawyer so he can call your “lawyer” and educate him? Or maybe I should call the phantom lawyer you supposedly called so I can get him to take my case. On contingency. I mean if it is such a slam dunk, he should be jumpin’ to take it right?
“If your argument is all about “stuff” and not anything but, it seems a weak one.”
Well you dumbass, STUFF is all the law has to say about your marriage too. It says nothing about the “love” or “morality” your particular union does or doesnt have.
Are you willing to give up all your STUFF priveleges? The law doesnt give a DAMN about your marriage except for stuff. So I guess your case for straight marriage is weak too?
“I have gone to drag shows for goodness sake” Oh well, arent you a role model for tolerance. You go to the zoo too, but you dont give animals equal rights. How did you vote on the hate amendment asshole? Yea, I see how you are FOR gays.
“If you write out a will you can will the things you own to anyone.”
So can you jackass, but you dont HAVE to do it. I must. And if you die without a will, which happens frequently, your property still goes to your spouse. Mine goes to the state.
Wanna dispute that or say that is equal protection under the law? Wanna call your lawyer on that one? ROFLMAO.
So who wants to bet rockl will get huffy, maybe even tearful, about
a)languageb) name callingc) my FACTS vs her liesd) or throw up her hands and leave because she wasnt treated “nicely”?
Here’s a little news for ya rockl. If you say stupid and untrue things, I am not going to be compelled to treat you with kid gloves. Run with the big dogs or keep you ass up on the porch with the little dogs and quit whining.
Your kind are so predictable rockl.
KFG wow your really pissed now aren’t you!!!! and who is getting to who???heheehhehehehe
I love it when KFG gets all fired up. I find her passion refreshing and her desire for property rights for gay couples seems eminently reasonable.
V.L.R.B!!
it’s nice to see people stand up for what they believe in no matter what… isn’t :)
rock – orientation is NOT protected under Title 7.
re: wills: things go tax-free to a spouse; not to other beneficiaries. Check with your accountant.
KFG Just some advice… get a will, don’t leave it to the state. You know what has to be done..do it! Also make a durable power of attorney then the medical problem is taken care of as well.
are your panties still in a bunch???
Hey, I played with a band in the 70’s. We played in a lesbian bar in WICHITA. Best damn time we ever had playing anywhere. Awesome people.
Thing is rock; why should she have to jump through all those legal (expensive lawyers) hoops when I don’t have to (by virtue of being married)?
Why is it that because I don’t vote for gay marriage that I am considered hating gays??? I don’t call them the names they call themselves… I don’t want less for them… I was appalled when I heard that the rights at the hospital were denied them, that’s why I called and talked with HR dept. at Wesley. That’s why I called a Lawyer this morn to see if it is true that they can be denied work over sexual taste. I was told no… If I was told incorrectly I would appreciate someone showing me some facts to back them up.
It is obvious to me that KFG has had some traumatic things happen to her. It sounds like the life that she chose or that chose her is a hard one. I personally hate that people have been beaten, robbed and killed for their beliefs. Many Mormons have been as well. Up until the last decade you could kill a Mormon in the state of MO. and it was legal, according to state law.
Sad how things like that work…
JR I agree. I had the best time at the drag show and like I said earlier it was amazing talent and such a good time. I hope someday to go again. lol
Rockl’s lies and the questions not answered:
Lie 1: prayer in schools is illegal.
It is PUBLIC prayer, not private prayer that is illegal.
Unanswered question:
“And when your kids are in school, they cant pray in private? Why, because it is all about the SHOW of prayer?”
Lie 2: She doesnt want to push her religion on the rest of us
And using the bible to legislate? Isnt that theocracy? So why not make divorce illegal? How about denying known adulterers the right to marry?
Hell, being gay didnt even make the top “commandments”. But straight adultry sure did. Why not go after THAT very clear are real threat to THE FAMILY. Catch too many straight people in the net?
Unanswered questions:
If you want to make marriage sacred and save the family, why no constitutional amendment or law making divorce illegal? Or adultry? Or out of wedlock child birth? Why not make it the law that only one parent can work and the other must stay home with the kids?
All would be consistant with your position rockl. Or do you only have the will to fight 10% of the population instead of all the straight people?
Lie number three: gay marriage would cause untold social problems and hurt straight marriage.
Unanswered questions:
How do current births out of wedlock and divorces of straight people affect the future?
How do YOUR abandoned kids, the millions of children in foster care, affect our future?
How does YOUR increase in domestic violence affect our future? How do YOUR broken homes affect our future?
Arent all the above problems largely created by straight people?
MOST IMPORTANT UNANSWERED QUESTION HERE:
What do you straight christians propose to do about those things now that the queers have been put in their place?
Lie 4: gay marrige invites a free for all in society with no morals whatsoever. Rockl says: “my entire point which it seems you missed is there has to be a system to life… it can’t just be a free for all.. no matter how fun you think that might be”
Unanswered question:
Dont you really mean life has to have YOUR systems?
Lie 5:
“As we let go of standards and embrace this new way of thinking, we allow more of what was normal to slip away.”
Unanswered questions:
Who gets to say what is moral and normal?
YOU? YOUR church? What about the bonefide churches who sanction and perform gay marriage? Is it just YOUR beliefs that should prevail?
Lie 6:
Family is only defined as biological mother father and kids.
Unanswered questions:
Do you only define the family as a married, never separated or divorced, mommy, daddy, and 2.5 kids born within wedlock?
If we cant reproduce, without alternative insemination, surrogates, or adoption does that mean we cant have families of choice?
My mom and dad adopted me because they couldnt reproduce. Does that mean they werent a married couple? If I am not their biological daugher, does that mean they were not my parents?
Do you think my mom, dad, and I were not a family? Is family all about reproduction?
Lie 7: majority should rule
Unanswered question:
At one time the majority of the people of the u.s wanted to kill or at least outlaw mormanism. Why didnt your people just go along with that tyranny of the majority?
Lie 8:
Legalizing gay marriage would be pushing farm girls view on everyone.
Unanswered question:
How do you justify that statement?
Lie 9
“I am not pushing my religion on anyone else.”
Unanswered question:
When you advocate laws for no other reason than the position of YOUR religion, how is that not pushing your religion on the rest of us?
And last but not least, this unanswered question at the end.
Rockl says:
“”I am a fairytale believer, I am afraid of you and now must hide my children in the closet… I am lead only by what others tell me to believe I have no mind no will of my own… I am robot controlled my a myth…”
And the incorrect part of that would be what?
Still waiting on answers rockl…
“are your panties still in a bunch???”
So now we know. Very funny cruex.
Did you get banned under your real name blogfart? Did you have to sneak in under Hegel and rockl.
Yes I am mad. Fuck YOU.
KFG How are you any different in your views then I am in mine????
“If I was told incorrectly I would appreciate someone showing me some facts to back them up”
Screw you. Do your own research. NO ONE at wesley told you live ins have the same rights as spouses. Get us a quote asshole. Or a link.
Cite some case law, with a link, about property or inheritance rights that give gay partners the same rights as marrieds.
I am not doing research anymore for stupid people. Do your own. I back my statements up. Do you?
Kansas Farm Girl is such a sterotypical, name calling liberal that rational thought and debate is useless. I have seen several people post here with interest and dignity and without fail, she degenerates into name calling and temper tantrums. People like her who are governed solely by emotion must lead horribly unpleasant lives and you have earned my pity, wanted or not. If I were Rock or Nathan (curious fixation you have for him being lesbian…) I wouldnt bother replying as much as they have.
When someone (me) asks a fairly straightforward question (why dont you move?) you reply with lengthy diatribes anbout secession (not mentioned) and sexual competition. Is it any wonder that straight people dont take you seriously?
I guess you did answer the question somewhat. To piss me off. I had no idea I had that sort of power over you. But you dont piss me off. Rather, you amuse me. How does it feel to be a failure?
As for JR or JM or whoever, I think the government should tax churches as well if it is going to tax anything. If churches are exempt, citizens should be as well. I am a national or flat sales tax proponent, so you wont gain traction from there.
Since it is taking too long to scroll down to the bottom of this thread, this will be my last post on it. No need to thank me, I’ll undoubtedly find you elsewhere.
You answer my questions first rockl. No more time wasted on stupid people. And I already answered that question. Can you scroll up and find it jackass?
KFG I guess I should be honored that you keep thinking I am someone else but I am not.. My name is Rachel. I am not Nathan or Cruxx… for someone who is gay you sure seem to think about men an awful lot!!Good
“rational thought and debate is useless”
Wanna give some examples of where you used that murphy?
Would this be it?
“If the above mentioned states were to vanish, the remainder of our country would far surpass you within a generation in all of the areas you mentioned. Why is that? Well, for starters, since we are not gay, we can have children. Since we are pro life, we dont abort them. Our population would continue to increase while yours would decrease. The only way you can get people to your side is to convert them.”
Yea, rational debate. Here’s your sign.
Answer the questions rockl or whoever the hell you are.
Back up your mouth with something other than your ass.
KFG I was not asking you for answers to my questions as far as proof… you seem unable to do so.. I would however like to know if I was informed incorrectly.. Though you do not believe me, makes no difference to me, but if there is something out there that makes yours fact not lies I would like to know it. To anyone who might be willing to do this I thank you in advance… and to KFG take some valium.
“rock”?
Upthrhead you addreess me in reference to a drag show you attended???? Uh…..I never mentioned that.
I earlier extended my welcome to you on this forum.I am becoming increasingly convinced that that may have been redundant.
I don’t know any Mormon mothers of 4 kids. My guess is such folk do not use phrases like “got your panties in a bunch”
For me, you are now on probation “rock” My guess is you will eventually out yourself. It is day 3 and you seem to be slipping. In the meantime, I do not feel that your posts are worth addressing.
JR I would have to say that you are indeed correct.. I was being mean with out throwing vulgar words and baiting back at KFG..she has slammed me in everyway possible and i did it back. It was not right of me to do so, but i am human. I have been called a bible girl and yes I do read the scriptures but I have not made one reference about burning in hell, or any other such mean statements. However I stand up for what I believe in and I am slammed…I ask questions… I am slammed…I go looking for answers..post them and am called a liar and again slammed…I ask for proof of being informed incorrectly and again I am slammed… is the only way on this site to not be slammed is say bring on the gay marriage and all that in encompasses???
I dont do drugs rockl. I know that astounds you since I am gay…
“but if there is something out there that makes yours fact not lies I would like to know it”
What have I said that is a lie?
Prove it rockl, or shut the hell up. You offer no backup for your bullshit except fake conversations that are flatly untrue.
As for your phoney assertations, I cant prove a negative. Can you prove that they are correct?
Ben pointed out what was in title 7 and I asked you to show me in the kansas non-discrimination statute where “sexual orientation” is protected. YOU have not done so.
Can you, at a minimum do this? Cite ONE case where an employer has been sanctioned in kansas for discrimination against a gay person.
Show me Wesley’s policy, or any hosptial policy about non-married partners, or post a link where we can see it. Otherwise, my truth about my experience stands. Do you even know what HIPPA is?
Your constant refusal to acknowledge black and white proof of the truth of my statements, and your CONSTANT unwillingness to prove your own, and your ABSOLUTE REFUSAL to do research is earily similar to another poster.
Answer my questions rockl. We are still waiting.
JR if i made it sound like I met you or knew you from a drag show I am sorry. I was at the drag show with my cousin and his mate in KC city. I did not mean in imply that we know each other. If i did so it was a mistake. thanks
Rockl, jesus doesnt like lying, virtually or in person.
So…with jesus watchhing….
Have you ever posted anywhere on this blog at any time under any other name?
Lets see if you can tell the christian truth, even to a virtual heathen like me.
I wouldn’t waste my time KFG.”rock” or whoever it is might be interested to know that disapproval of gay unions is now at only 51%.
“How much is enough?”"rock” asked. It will be enough when small minded folks keep their predjudices within their own little house of worship. Whether it be a “house of god” or just the little space between their ears.
KFG I find it funny that you say Christ name, yet you don’t believe in him and he is a myth. BUT to answer your question..NO never as a matter of fact this is my first time ever responding to a blog of any sort.
I am a 35-year-old women who happens to be married and has 4 children. You have talked with my husband many times and no its not Nathan or Cruxx. I do not think you a heathen I am sorry if you do… I really shouldn’t have gotten you so riled up…
I can see how important your issues are to you and I am truly sorry that you have had to face so much to have them… with that being said it does not mean that I still am not going to stand up for what I believe either. I did in fact call those people to find out if you were indeed denied these rights. I did receive the answers I posted. I would like to have the correct answers if those are incorrect.. But instead of helping people to understand you, you like to think of us a bible thumping myth-believing idiots. Though you are correct that I do not know everything, I am smart, I have not once thrown church in your face. I don’t say to you all the hateful things I have heard said to my cousin, but I am a bible thumper no less(to you).
I think if you calm down and just maybe try to see just even a little bit of what I am saying you might see a little more clearly what my worry is.. and your not it.
Answer the questions rockl. Do your own research on hippa.
I have not once thrown church in your face.
you are insane read you own posts
KFG, Hippa in the hospitals is about protecting medical information. Unless a patient in the hospital requests not to be identified, anyone can call and find out if a person is a patient and what room number they’re in. If a patient signs a “release of information” then their medical information can be shared with anyone they choose.I have to call the hospitals all the time to find out if my patients are there, no one has ever witheld that information from me. If I need to know what medical treeatment they had, I just fax them a copy of the ROL that the patient signed when I started providing home health services to them and I have access to that information also.Paients have a right to have whomever they want involved in their care, and it doesn’t have to necessarily be someone they’re married to.
Damoon do I understand correctly that you work in the medical field? If so who is correct the hospital HR that I talked to or is KFG… I am not trying to bait her… I just really want to know that is the reason I called this AM. any info would be great.Rachel
It’s as I said above. If someone doesn’t want anyone to know that they’re in the hospital, they have to sign a wavier, otherwise anyone can call and find out if that person is a patient and what room number they’re in.Medical information can’t be given unless the patient signs a release of information giving permission and stating who can have access to their medical information. As a patient you have the right to have anyone you want involved in your care.
I’m sorry, the way I remember it is that the patient signs a wavier when admitted to the hospital that allows the hospital to acknowlege that they’re a patient to anyone who might inquire.
thank you. that is kinda the way it was explained to me today.. when i called Wesley the lady in HR said she had never heard of anyone being denied because of there sexual prefrence. That unless there is a medical issue loved ones are allowed to be there.
Damoon, with all due respect, every time my mother was admitted to the hospital, I had to sign an OPT IN form. It was not automatic. They wouldnt give info to anyone UNLESS they were on the list I signed.
Everytime I was admitted, everywhere I was admitted, I had to sign the same form. No one could even get my room number at St. Francis unless I signed a release. Same at LOL, and believe me, my friends called. No dice without me specifically signing the form for them to receive information.
I did have the option of signing a blanket form that would make ALL information public. But if I didnt want to sign that form, the only option was the form that listed specific names.
You said this yourself Damoon:”Medical information can’t be given unless the patient signs a release of information giving permission and stating who can have access to their medical information.”
That is exactly what I am saying. Maybe you can get info, like room numbers, condition etc. for your clients, but I am telling you that is NOT true for the rest of the world. Not without signed releases.
I can point you to the blog of my friend in Ellsworth whose’s son was in Wesley and then Wesley rehab. Same thing. People called for him or stopped to see him, and then had to call his mom because the hospital wouldnt give them the room number if they werent on the list.
What am I missing here Damoon?
As for being denied visitation because of orientation, that’s nuts. I never said that. What I said is that you cant get info or make decisions like a spouse unless you are a spouse.
If I am unconsious when I am admitted, I cant sign anything can I? But if I had a legal spouse, I wouldnt have to sign anything. And yes, I have medical power of attorney papers for my partner, but if we were married, we wouldnt need those things. THAT is the point.
Without signed documents, my partner has no more rights than my third grade teacher. WITH my consent and documents, she can participate. Spouses dont need either consent or documents. They automatically get info, decision rights, etc.
The idea wasnt that my partner was barred from the room because we are gay. Good grief. The point was the difference in the rights of a married couple and an unmarried couple.
You get yours automatically. I have to pay a lawyer to have my spouse not be treated like a stranger!
Sorry to beat the dead horse.
Damoon, you said this:
“the way I remember it is that the patient signs a wavier when admitted to the hospital that allows the hospital to acknowlege that they’re a patient to anyone who might inquire.”
That is what I am saying too, when the patient is able to sign. However, it isnt just a release form for acknowledgement. It is a BLANKET release of infomation, including medical, and many people decline to sign it for that reason.
Nothing gets released to anyone, except spouses or parents, without signed documents.
A patient signs a blanket wavier when admitted to the hospital so that the hospital can acknowledge to whoever inquires that they are a patient there. If they refuse to sign, then they are considered a “Fed” and the hospital will not acknowledge that they are there. In order to get medical info about a patient, that patient must sign a release of information and be specific about who they want their information shared with. A ROI and a wavier are two different forms and both have a different purpose. You’re right about spouses, they don’t have to have a ROI to get info, neither does the parent of a child.
Oh my good G-d!!!
This is all my fault, really, I lit the match that started the whole freakin forest fire! The argument between the Ks and the new guy is fierce! Sorry to disappoint you Ks, but I am definitely NOT a communist or a mormon. Well, I guess my POV has kinda changed a bit. I’m gonna respond to Tara upthread. You can’t equate mixed race marriage with gay marriage. That is not cool, man! Minorities are not the poster child for the gay marriage movement. I mean personally, I don’t care about gay marriage. Really, it’s polygamy that’s just gonna compound the amounts of divorce! Bitter jealousy between wives or husbands (in a polyandry). Really, Tara, don’t equate us colored folk in the same boat as homosexuals. These are COMPLETELY different issues, they merit different arguments to defend them.
You are studying to be a lawyer crux? You are too damned predictable to be a lawyer.
You telegraphed that you would come to this thread next.
First I have knowledge that you are a minority Crux.
And the inter racial/ gay marriage comparison IS a relevant one.
It was not so long ago that couples of mixed races were not allowed to marry. Their marriage would have hurt no one. But it was not done because “that’sjust the way it is”
How is this different? If you are a minority Crux surely you must know the cruelty of oppressive stupidity…..even if just through history.
Predjudice is predjudice.
And if you Crusader X truly desire to be a lawyer, you would do well to dstinguish between mattters of right and matters of “that is just the way it is”
Ugh!Legislation is not gonna be my JOB! You got a problem with the current marriage laws, you take it up with the legislation, not us!
Us? who is “us”?
You can run but you can’t hide. How many threads you want to dance over?
HIPPA is a federal law was enacted in order to institute medical privacy rules to go along with increased sharing of information among various parties. It’s the same reason you have to stand 6 feet behind someone at a pharmacy counter.
Listen to Damoon, assuming you’re capable of absorbing facts. A nurse, of all people, has to follow HIPPA rules every day.
I haven’t followed this thread closely because it’s so huge, and it looked like pure torture. Seems I missed some important information.
That wasn’t meant for you, KFG. :)Ya know. (See what I mean about not following closely–goodbye!)
JR,I got a heart believe it or not. But trying to appeal to emotions is NOT gonna get gay marriage passed, not in the Appeals court, and it’ll be years until the Supreme Court even bothers to look at a “gay marriage” case! (They’re extremely overloaded with other stuff right now) What the “gay marriage” agenda people have to do is first to establish valid reasons why their unions should 1) be recognized as “marriage.” 2) cite reasons why gay unions are entitled to marital benefits. Ok! So current marital laws are virtually identical in each state. (that’s why a marriage license from one state is still valid when a married couple goes to another state.) As of now, polygamy is not recognized by any states (that’s true for Utah isn’t it?) lol! The current marital law states that 1M 1W hetero marriage is the only form of marriage that is recognized throughout the union, so gay marriage peeps should really just garner support from their legislators rather than waiting for a federal law to be “made” a la R v. W, it would be much quicker in my opinion.
JR,”us” meaning judiciary.
Damn! Even when I’m not talking to her, I get a F*ck You from KsFarmgirl!!!
Gahahahahaha!!!
Rockl,You’re new here. I should warn you that the one known as Ksfarmgrrl brands EVERYONE who doesn’t swallow the gay agenda and preach it from rooftops is automatically branded a HOMOPHOBE. Don’t waste your time with the likes of her or her henchmen buddies.
“Don’t throw your pearls before swine.” eh?
The gay agenda? And what would that be CrudX? That gay people want to be treated equally and have the same rights as everyone else? OMG, how dare them!!
i caught that…thanks for the advice
I am not Nathan or Cruxx… for someone who is gay you sure seem to think about men an awful lot!!Good
I know, she wants me.
Hahahaha!!!
And you so NEED to be wanted.Crusaderblogfart.
Gay people don’t really give a crap about gay marriage, it’s the social engineering Leftists who do.
http://www.rachelmarsden.com/columns/gaymarriage2.html
Now which one of you commies said that the “gay” (really Leftist) agenda wouldn’t hurt anybody?
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/03/15/kids_take_back_seat_to_gay_agenda/
Read Well!!!
More ways the Leftist idealogue machine that hides under “gay marriage” agenda “benefits” the people of Massachusetts!
http://www.article8.org/
And here is how Leftists want to educate our kids! Of course, they already ARE doing this:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=%5CCommentary%5Carchive%5C200402%5CCOM20040218c.html
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!
http://www.parentsrightscoalition.org/
How is it NOT like interracial marriage, Crux? I’ve given you all the reasons why they’re similar, and you haven’t refuted any of them, except for saying “That’s not cool!”
People thought that marriages between people of different races was unnatural, against God’s plan. There was talk about how their children would be psychologically damaged. No one wanted to extend the tax benefits of legal marriage to mixed race couples, because obviously it would cost more in taxes.Oh, remember the argument that “gay people can get married and get the tax break, they just have to get married to people of the opposite sex! See, it’s not discrimination!” Yep, I’m sure they used that one, too. Anyone can get married, but they have to marry within their own race. They can’t marry the one that they love and be recognized by the state.The very same thing is happening here.
The only argument I have against polygamy is that it seems unfair that people can collect the tax breaks more than once. It would throw off the whole system. Two consenting, competent adults who will otherwise remain unmarried should not have to cough up more in taxes because of the majority’s sex hang ups. We cant make laws based on the “ick” factor.
Crux, did you forget that I’m a minority, too? If I couldn’t legally get married to the one I love simply because of the color of our skins, and I couldn’t get all the legal perks, and the ONLY reason for this was because people have their hang ups, I would be PISSED. It would be WRONG.That’s why the gay marriage thing is so important to me. I would be proud to be a poster child for the gay marriage movement.
To all you commies who equate homosexual marriage with interracial marriage and who believe that there is NO SUBSTANTIAL DIFFERENCE between the two, this is my gift to you all!!! This goes for you too Tara, though I know you’re not a commie, you are seriously misinformed.
“As black preachers, we are progressive in our social consciousness, and in our political ideology as an oppressed people we will often be against the status quo, but our first call is to hear the voice of God in our Scriptures, and where an issue clearly contradicts our understanding of Scripture, we have to apply that understanding,” said the Rev. Gregory G. Groover Sr., pastor of Charles Street African Methodist Episcopal Church in Boston.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/02/10/black_clergy_rejection_stirs_gay_marriage_backers/
Oh, so you’re using Scripture as a reason to ban gays from getting married? Well you can’t make laws that discriminate against people ONLY because the Bible says so. Not if the SOLE reason to make such a law is a religion that–oh my head–not everyone believes.Render unto Caesar…I read all of the propoganda about the “homosexual agenda” on those sites you linked to. It seems that they are fighting information in school such as “Being gay is not a choice”. Well, I think the fact that we’ve identified over 450 species of animals that engage in homosexual behavior is a pretty damn good indication that it’s not a choice. Not to mention all of the gay people who can say with certainty it’s not a choice. But these “anti-homosexual agenda” people are fighting facts with fear and Bible thumping? That’s wrong on so many levels.
People used the Bible to preach against interracial relationships, too. God scattered all of the people in Genesis 11, so it must mean He thinks interracial marriage is wrong.
I’m cautiously optimistic, though. History is on their side. we always wised up and extended equal rights–eventually–to groups despite opposition. It’ll just take some time.
Tara,What you’re doing is equating gay “marriage” with marriage between a man and a woman. Just because the color of the man’s skin is different from the color of the woman’s skin does not stop the man from being a man and the woman from being a woman. There are those who also equate homosexuality with beastiality, this is of course an ridiculous comparison. From what I know, the Catholic Church never made any papal document which stated that interracial marriage was not really marriage. Are you talking about the Protestants? Those same fools who at first backed abortion and later came to the inevitable understanding that abortion is the killing of a human life? Well, I certainly can’t speak for their reprobate minds! JR also follows the same logic as you do I’m afraid. That because I’m a minority, I OWE it to them to be a proponent of homosexual “marriage.” Of course we’re not talking about RACE relations, we’re talking redefining the traditionalist value of Holy Matrimony. Do you know what the difference between myself and KFG / JR / RAGE and CF? Marriage is a sacred institution… However it appears that to those guys (Are they Protestants?) that marriage is not a sacred institution ordered by God and is to them subject to the use and abuse of human interpretation. This whole thing about gay “marriage”, this is strikingly similar to Henry VIII’s condoning divorce.
Oh, so you’re using Scripture as a reason to ban gays from getting married? Well you can’t make laws that discriminate against people ONLY because the Bible says so.
No Tara I can’t make laws based on the Bible, (as a lawyer I wouldn’t be making laws anyway.) But I CAN hold my beliefs and speak out against that which I feel is little more than an abberation of something which is good, pure, and holy. You will at least afford me that right won’t you?
Well, I think the fact that we’ve identified over 450 species of animals that engage in homosexual behavior is a pretty damn good indication that it’s not a choice.
Furthermore, we are NOT ANIMALS. Human beings have something called willpower and can exercise it even when it comes to sexual attraction. e.g. I may be attracted to you, but that doesn’t mean just because Im attracted to you, that I would have sex with you. My point being that even if one has a homosexual orientation, it mean that person has sex with every man or woman he or she sees. Frankly, I find your comparison of gay people with animals disgusting. You should be more respectful when talking about people.
I don’t mean to say that you should be forced to be happy with gay marriage. Ok, so you believe it is sacred and that the gays are going to taint it for you. That’s your right.However, when the government has all of these (secular) perks for being married, it’s unimaginable to not extend those rights to gays simply due to a religious belief. I’m all for civil unions, until the shock and the ick factor wears off (perhaps another 20 years). Leave it up to the churches to decide whom and whom not to marry. But you can’t take your religious belief and demand that that it dictates laws for people who really have nothing to do with you.I know you’ll point to the Catholic charities fiasco, and I think we’ll both agree that it was a lose-lose situation. The best way to deal with cases like these is to apply some sort of immunity to churches, so they don’t get their tax breaks yanked when they discriminate against gays. Such a protection will eventually be challenged, of course, and it’ll almost certainly be overturned after gay unions become more mainstream and less stomach turning. But the churches will be able to turn away gays for at least 20 years, I think. Once our society evolves to accept unions more readily, the churches themselves will stop discriminating against gay couples voluntarily.
A little brutal honesty never killed anyone.
And God scattered the people because of their pride. You are referring to the Tower of Babel incident. God confused the people’s language (at that time they spoke just one language) because they thought they could build their tower to heaven and be like God. So God brought calamity on the insolent ones. That is what you are referring to in Genesis 11, it has nothing to do with race. (If all people spoke one language, then we all share the same ancestors don’t we?)
Whether you believe in that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, it is a good lesson to learn. Our generation plays God all the time, thinking we can control life and death, thinking we can change God’s idea of marriage to fit our own concepts of what marriage should be. In short, we appear to believe that we can be like God. It is no wonder we are paying dearly for our sins.
My point being that even if one has a homosexual orientation, it mean that person has sex with every man or woman he or she sees.
THAT SHOULD READ:it doesnt mean that person has sex…
my bad!
I don’t find it disgusting, because biologically speaking, we are animals. We share the same conserved gene sequences with animals. I’m saying that the gay orientation is something that science supports being born with. Gays shouldn’t be forced to pretend to be straight and deny their nature just because of a cultural hangup that we created. They should be able to fall in love and get married like any other adult.
All of this backlash against gays is cultural. It too, will pass. Someday gay couples will be accepted with open arms, and the world won’t stop spinning. People will look back on this era, shake their heads in disbelief and think “How could we have been so wrong?”
So you’re all for educating children in elementary schools with cross-dressing, and having teachers teach classes about “searching out their sexual identity?” The likes of which can be found in my aforementioned link above?
Yknow what? I hope the day comes when homosexuals are welcomed with open arms. They are people created in the image and likeness of God, which makes them deserving of respect due to any other human being. But I don’t believe that the Left should be doing their social engineering experiments on our kids just so they can achieve their political agenda! That is in my opinion disingenuous, sneaky, and underhanded. Then again, that is what I expect from the Left.
I think classes about searching out one’s sexual identity are stupid. You’re either gay/bi, or you’re not. It’s not rocket science. Same with cross dressing.But I doubt schools are teaching these kids HOW to be gay or transsexual. Just like schools don’t teach kids how to engage in foreplay (snicker, i’ll refrain from adding a snide comment)…I imagine that it’s away to let kids who are confused know that there are others like them, and they have support if they need it. And it’s a way to take out the stigma so they’re less likely to be harrassed by their peers. Nothing wrong with that, right?
Marriage is a social contract with terms and conditions sometjimews specified beforehand by the parties. It is a religious institution because the parties making the the contract choose that a religious representative witness and approve the contract. That’s it.
Back in the early centuries after Rome fell, there was a controversy over whether the pope should invest kings with their power (after all, God chose them to be kings), or whether princely powere could be invested by a lay authority. For centuries, the papal side held the upper hand because Charlemagne got duped by the pope into a religious investiture.
Thankfully, Napoleon, a child of the enligghtenment and incredibly astutue despot, invested himself with the political power.
Marriages, whatever kind they might be, are first and foremost legal and social contracts. Aftger that, ifthe parties choose to include some religious aspect to the contract signing, then that’s their privilege and their right.
And lest we forget the 400 years of enlightenment thought on the subject, recall that government is a social contract among people. The PEOPLE choose who their representatives will be, the PEOPLE decide which laws should govern them. The president and senior administration officials don’t have their powers bestowed upon them by any religious authority. Nor do we accept the idea that any religious authority has the right to hold power over our elected leaders. As so beautifully summed up bt Abraham Lincoln, we have a government of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE, and for the PEOPLE. WE choose, via the social contract, to govern ourselves, and WE choose to obey the dictates of that elected government unless we find it objectionable, at which point we CHOOSE to elect a new government.
WE CHOOSE to cede to religious authorities the symbolic privilege of investing a couple (or whatever the case may be) in a social contract called marriage. It may have religious overtones for the participants, but the power to aloow the marriage rests in the civil authority of the PEOPLE.