Lots of Kansans were worked up over the governor’s veto of the concealed-carry bill and the Legislature’s override of her veto. But Darrell Wilson, executive director of the Kansas Sheriff’s Association and a former Saline County sheriff, predicts the new law won’t have much impact. “Some people, as soon as they can, they’ll start carrying one,” Wilson told The Salina Journal. “Before long, they’ll find out there aren’t bad guys to shoot every other day, and the newness will wear off. They’ll leave it home one day, then they won’t carry it for a couple of days, and pretty soon they won’t be carrying it at all.” He could be right.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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106 Comments
That is correct, having carried a weapon. I can tell you that often it is a bother. The holster hangs up on the car seat, it feels at times as if you are being poked in the side and you end up shifting from one side to the other. Law enforcement carry daily and actually are looking for the bad guys. seldom do they find a situation where a firearm is needed. The stats are for L.E.O. 90% go through their career never firing their weapon outside of a firing range. of the 10% that are left, 9% never take a human life. That leaves 1% of all L.E.O. that have taken a life in the line of duty.
Back to the subject, after the new wears off there will be a number that as had been said will not carry often. There really is more chance of being struck by lightning then ever having to use a weapon. That said, it is the randomness of crime that this will impact. The average criminal not knowing if they are going to be facing a armed victim. Makes them think twice no four times about committing the crime. That has been proven, by the FBI stats over two million crimes a year are stopped by private ownership of firearms. Either by direct confrontation or unknowingly just the presents of an arm citizen. There actually maybe more that never get reported or found out.
For those that still oppose this law, you already walk around everyday with people that are carrying. Either they are a criminal and carrying a weapon is the least of the crimes they are willing to commit. Or a “Honest” citizen that for one reason or another feel the need to be armed. But every time you go to the mall, the store or to a park there are people that have a weapon within reach.
Well done and congratulations, Phil!
DANG!!!!! You mean I won’t have lots of chances be a big hero and save my fellow man from all the boogie men out there? Talk about bursting my bubble and raining on my parade!Macho, Macho Man….I WANT to be a Macho Man….
Dammo,Macho man? Am I missing something here:-)
Opps . . . Damoon . . . not enough coffee yet!
Damoon is just another middle aged, upper middle class White woman who believes in “utopia”!
Cheers and peace to all of God’s creatures!
JM, LOL, it’s just my “dallywagger” envy!
Ian, “upper middle class middle age woman who believes in Utopia”? LOLOLOLOLOL, well, you got the middle age part right anyway.I’ll bet I’m a hundred times more street smart than you, deary!
Writerdog, I love your posts. With all due respect though, I dont know that CC will cause criminals to think twice about committing random crime.
We already have the death penalty, harsh prison sentences, etc. and that doesnt stop murder now. If they were thinking about the consequenses NOW, they wouldnt do the crime.
They dont think or care about the consequences. That is why it is random crime.
Damoon,
You seem like a typical baby boomer. You probably feel that with enough nuturing and mothering and such, all of the world’s problems can be solved.
Cheers and peace to all of God’s creatures!
I don’t know, I have to agree with writerdog on the whole issue… the thing is, most criminals don’t think about the consequences in terms of legal punishment with the cuffs and the trial and prison sentence. However, self-preservation and the desire not to get dead are awfully powerful motivators. Different people operate at different levels of moral maturity; some can know what’s right and wrong and act on it, some people only respond to fear and intimidation or reward and punishment. CC is not a panacea, but it does have the side effect of having people not know who can defend themselves with deadly force. Laws may not be a deterrent for them, but fear of death might very well be. And as far as I am concerned, acute lead poisoning is one of the many occupational hazards of being a criminal.
Just my $.02
I agree with writerdog, too.
One thing that you shouldn’t discount is the appearance of CCW proponents. Many if not most appear to be ultra-rational, more than competent, and even wise in an old testament way that the kinds of criminals who don’t worry about the consequences but DO worry about their hide and retribution understand (exceptions to CCW stereotype noted: Don Murphy for one).
It may take a while to get the news out, but I think the random application of CCW will not diminish its strength as a deterrent to violent crime. So if people quit packing then the effectiveness won’t be killed.
CCW is a theory that probably gives an old liberal like Malcolm Gladwell pause because it’s so similar to his “tipping point” theory of crime.
Little crimes sometimes matter a lot if the message received by society is that nobody’s watching. CCW definitely says “we’re watching.”
$0.02
Off Topic -flike, I do not think of Malcolm Gladwell as an old liberal. He looks to me to be pretty young. He is more of a super rationalist – let science guide decisions – than a liberal. This is what I thought any way.
Here’s a link to his website. Maybe the picture is old, but he looks like a young’in to me.
http://www.gladwell.com/bio.html
I see that he has a blog. That might be interesting to visit.
Any writer who can make a living and afford to live in NY City is doing something right if you ask me.
DD, you are correct and I am wrong. I’m not sure how I got a completely different picture of Gladwell stuck in my head, it certainly bears absolutely no likeness to the guy in your link. Somewhere back in the fogs of time (kidding, I didn’t even realize Gladwell’s barely a baby boomer, born in 1963) my head inserted the photo of a guy who looks suspiciously like Eric Sevareid. Now that I think about it, I believe I see my mistake. ;)
Gladwell’s an extremely interesting writer, and I agree he’s an utterly rational thinker. I guess I think of him as a liberal because, in my informal study of him he seems so similar in his faith (that science can be applied to all social problems) to the old sociologists of the early 20-th century like Compte and Weber. It’s his earnestness, I guess.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clean some attic, I sure had him down, somehow, as a younger Eric S.
BTW, that’s some wild hair on Malcolm’s canuckian head, eh? :)
Good points, writerdog. I got my pistol hung up in the seatbelt once. I’m glad there was no one around to see that.
I’ll get a permit, but I have no intention of carrying all the time. Mostly, I carry when I travel. Having a gun in the car is one thing. Carrying one hidden on your person is something else. I go to very few places that would justify having a sidearm strapped on.
Conceiling a weapon in the summertime could be problematic.
well you might need a gun at the park. Those geese will attack if you run out of bread! :)
KFG, the data support it, but the best example is a responce by a teen that was a part of a gang that targeted tourist in Fla.Florida is one of the first to get CC into law. A reporter asked the teen why they only target cars with out of state tag. The teen said because those living in Fla. might be carrying a gun. They knew that out of stater will not be.
For the most part criminals are not stupid they just do some dumb things. But most burglars will not hit a house they know some one is home. The same goes for the possiblity that a victim could be armed. There are those that will go for it. Those are the ones your life maybe depended on being armed. They are few and far between that is the good news.
It appears that people are finally realizing what was being said here a couple days ago. 46 other states have cc laws, and it is no big deal.
The people we have to be concerned with are not the ones that get the permits to carry legally. The ones to worry about are the animal gang bangers who don’t care about cc laws, laws prohibiting machine guns, laws prohibiting convicted felons from carrying, etc.
With 30,000 gun related deaths in the US every year, the last thing we need is for more people to be armed. You all talk like using a weapon for self defense would be a rare occurance, but I’ll bet the accidental shootings by people too stupid to find their butt with both hands won’t be.We need to restrict gun use, not encourage it.
When I had my apartments, there was an old man (the grandfather of my partner, that’s why I didn’t evict the SOB) who carried a gun, 3 times he pulled a gun on other tenants. Once, because they parked their car on the grass, another time when some tenants tried to move out without telling me they were leaving, and a 3rd time, because a visitor got his apartment confused with someone else’s and knocked on his door.My 11 yr old nephew got shot and killed because a playmate was visiting his grandpa who lived in the neighborhood and the old man left his gun case unlocked with a loaded gun in it. His twin sister turned 21 the other day, and it’s like a stab in the heart everytime his birthday comes around.Just the other day, one of my coworkers was telling me how her husband (who is “well trained and careful” with guns) shot himself in the hand last week, trying to put the safety on his gun.
This is why I can’t condone anymore guns added to the pool, especially with the mindset most conceal and carry proponents have. We have 8 times the number of gun related deaths in this country than any other developed nation,and 12 times that for children. It’s a national disgrace, and I don’t feel anymore “free” or “safe” because more idiots will be toting guns when they shop at Walmart.Yea, you can say I have an irrational fear of guns, but the statisics speak for themselves.
As I said before, when all the numbers come in and the research is complete, conceal and carry will be shown to increase the number of fatalies due to guns. I have enough faith in human nature to believe that will be a fact.
Damoon,
If you wish to place yourself, unarmed, at the mercy of our evil government and carr brothas type criminal scum then you do so! Just don’t expect me and others to follow your lead.
Cheers and peace to all of God’s creatures.
I see it as using a kind of game theory, one that uses to society’s gain certain known human incentives.
In other words, even if actual gun-packing goes down, just the passage of this law may lead to decreased violent crime. The way this happens is that criminals prone to violence are not deterred by faint promises of jail time, but are deterred by the possibility that somebody might ventilate their hide if they act out.
At the risk of seeming cavalier (especially in the face of your loss, Damoon), I guess I see this as a kind of poker game of sorts. If violent crime can be compared to poker in this way, then I’m saying that CCW introduces the bluff, if you will. Violent criminals are forced to calculate what which they cannot know (who is packing and who is not) in order to avoid getting shot. The decrease in crime will, hopefully, come in the form of those criminals who choose not to act out because they are too lazy or inept to calculate their odds of getting ventilated.
Since there’s not too much violent crime to begin with in Kansas, I don’t think the effect will be big except in percentage terms.
Accidental shootings, though, are bound to increase if for no other reason than that licensees will spend more lawful time with their weapon.
This is the way I see it, anyway.
Even if I’m correct, though, the CCW law is a net loss for Kansas if – IF – the number of accidental gunshot wounds not inflicted on licensees (i.e., the licensee shoots an innocent bystander accidentally) exceeds the number of violent crimes prevented.
Obviously this can’t be measured. To me, though, the incentives sound right.
I guess this would get less windy if I just said that it’s the “concealed” part that’s crucial to my support.
That and the permit, the licensing, etc.
Ian, and if idiots couldn’t own guns, my nephew would still be alive.
Damoon,
I am truly sorry for the accident that took your nephew’s life, it was a tragedy. You have a legitimate reason to be wary of guns and if you choose not to own them, well that is your right. However, I don’t think that you or others of the anti-gun persuasion should be able to make that choice for the rest of us.
Cheers and peace to all of God’s creatures.
More freedom is a good thing to me.
Ian,It’s only a tragedy to you if the person who dies is white. For all of your usage of the Carr brothers, you fail to realize that in the United States for every 1 white woman who dies, 6 black men die. Quite a discrepancy which you failed to mention in the past “black on white” crime statistics that you get from the Zundelsite.
Crux,
It is a FACT that 95% of inter-racial crime in this country is minority on White, next!!!!!!
Cheers and peace to all of God’s creatures.
Damoon,
Of those 30,000 deaths due to guns, about 17,000 of them are suicides.
Sorry, but I dont think guns should be outlawed because people who are trying to kill themselves use them for that purpose.
Damoon,
It is awful what happened to your nephew. Taking away guns or restricting them is not going to stop idiots from killing people though.
Damoon,
I could post a bunch of stories where people use guns to save their lives or the life of thier family.
Guns can be used for good too.
I suppose you would sacrifice all the lives guns save because you don’t like them?
Where are your stories Nathan?
Now that they passed that new law, I will go out and buy a gun and get a permit to carry it. Not because I like the law and fear criminals, but because the so called “law abiding citizens” who wanted this the most are a lot scarier than any criminal I might meet. If my car breaks down late at night and some paranoid redneck threatens to shoot me, I’ll pull my pistol and drop him like a fly.
I don’t feel “free” in a society that is overflowing with guns and redneck idiots.I think it’s pretty pathetic that human life doesn’t seem all that important, either. So what if 17,000 people kill themselves each year with guns? So what if 12,000 people are murdered each year and a couple thousand more die from gun accidents? So what if 5,000 children die and 20,000 children are wounded each year? So what that 45,000 adults are wounded each year and that all this carnage costs our country 100 BILLION dollars a year? So what if gun deaths in the US are 8 times higher than any modern country?It doesn’t matter because we can’t to anything about it anyway so who cares?Afterall, isn’t carrying a gun is what freedom’s all about?
won’t shutup, won’t shutup, won’t shutup……..
Damoon,
You sure are feisty today!
Cheers and peace to all of God’s creatures.
Feisty and FULL OF RAGE!
Actually, I’m done for the day. Got to clean house before the Sopranos comes on….can’t wait to find out if ‘ole Ton is going to make it!
I think old ‘Ton’s gonna be fine, it’s Uncle Junior who’s gonna suffer – and at the hands of Anthony, Jr. to boot.
Damoon,
Almost the same number of people die in boating accidents as firearm accidents.
Lets take away boats!
Almost the same number of people die drowning in swiming pools and bath tubs.
Who cares about them?
Do you know how many people accidently die from poisoning themselves?
Don’t you care about them?
I could go on, but who would care about all these people who accidently kill themselves?
Numbers are so much fun! Especially when you compare them with other numbers then you start to get this wonderful thing called perspective.
Then we can see that when about a thousand people accidently kill themselves with guns there are thousands more accidently killing themselves by poison, falling, drowning, electriution…etc.
Oh and by the way Damoon, nobody ever died at any of the places where I keep guns in response to no one drowning at the lake.
I don’t think anyone has been killed by guns at the lake either.
Still no stories of folks using guns to save their lives huh Nathan.
Now your last is a real hoot and until you prove otherwise, an outright unsubstantiated lie.
Boat, bathtub and poisoning accidents are equal to gun accidents? Prove it.
And I do have a personal story of my own to share.
Several years ago, a good friend of mine lost a son. His son was burglarizing a house. He was not armed. The homeowner shot him dead. He was cleared of any wrong doing.
Was he right to be burglarizing a house? No, clearly not.
Isn’t it intresting that mt of those on the “pro life” crowd seems so much more concerned about property than life.
But don’t you use that as a distraction Nathan. I want your facts that boating, poisoning, and bathtub accidents are equal to gun accidents.
—–
JR,
I didn’t see you ask Damoon to provide the proof for her numbers.
You can pick up any copy of American Rifleman and read about people who use guns for self defense or I suppose you could even do some research too.
Is your position that guns are not used to protect life or save lives?
Once you answer that I will give you some stories.
When I ask for proof it is because I don’t believe what is being said.
It seems to me you are asking just to make me jump through hoops.
In response to your demands for evidence concerning my numbers, I ask you this:
Do you know how many people die from accidental shootings?
When I know what you think that number is then I will respond.
I then wonder when you find that out if you honestly are wondering if the same number of people die from accidents in boating…etc…
Once again it seems you are just asking me to be a pest, instead of really thinking I am telling lies.
Yes I am sure the “American Rifleman” is an objective source.
You made the assertion Nathan.
I want your statistics to prove that boating, poisoning, and bathtub accidents each individually are equal to gun accidents. I say you went too far and cannot provide that info.
Axe and you shall receive!
According to the National Safety Council’s “Accident Facts: 1997 Edition,” (see http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/afp08.htm) there were 6,700 accidental deaths for children age 0 to 14. These accidental deaths break down to:
3,300 or 49.3% due to Motor-Vehicle accidents1,000 or 14.9% due to drowning660 or 9.9% due to fires, burns and deaths associated with fire250 or 3.7% due to suffocation by ingested object240 or 3.6% due to firearms190 or 2.8% due to falls100 or 1.5% due to poisoning by solids or liquids60 or 0.9% due to poisoning by gases or vapor900 or 13.4% due to all other types
6,700 or 100% due to all causes
A legal definition of children would include those up to age 18 (depending on the state). However, the statistics compiled by the National Safety Council aggregate persons into 5-year increments. As can be seen, firearms are either the *FIFTH* leading cause of death (not the third as you report), or the *SIXTH*, if “all other types” is included as a categorical cause, excluding deaths due to perinatal conditions, congenital anomolies, and infectious disease. Regardless of its rank, it can be seen just from the data above that only 3.6% of all accidental deaths under the age of 15 are caused by firearms. That is far less than those killed in motor-vehicle accidents, drowning, or in fires.http://www.sugisorensen.com/cablequit.html
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
JR,
Here is one of the places I get my numbers.
http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm
You stold my thunder Ian, mine is the 2002 data though!
Here are some more recent numbers and government numbers at that.
According to the National Vital Statistics Report, dated 9/16/2002, found on the CDC website, during the year 2000, there were 2,403,351 deaths in the USA, total. Of these, the combined total of accidental firearm deaths and undetermined intent firearm deaths is 1006.There were 16,586 suicides attributed to firearms.There were 10,801 homicides attributed to firearms.The total number of suicides by all means was 29,350.The total number of homicides by all means was 16,765.There were 19,698 drug-induced deaths.There were 19,358 alcohol-induced deaths.There were 43,354 vehicle-related deaths.There were 97,900 total accidental deaths.
0.041% of deaths in 2000 were what i would call preventable, the 1006 accidents and undetermined firearm related deaths.1.150% of deaths in 2000 were from firearms used in suicides, homicides, and legal interventions.
0.819% of deaths in 2000 were from drugs.0.805% of deaths in 2000 were from alcohol.1.803% of deaths in 2000 were from vehicles.4.073% of deaths in 2000 were from all accidents.75.56% of deaths in 2000 were from the top medical-related deaths, which include HIV, malignant neoplasm’s, diabetes, Alzheimer’s, heart disease, cerebrovascular diseases, influenza, lower respiratory diseases, liver diseases, nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, nephrosis, and numbered 1,815,974.
3,012 of the firearm related deaths occurred to victim’s age 0-19. An average of 8.332 in that age group each day died from firearms.229 of those were accidental or undetermined intent. Average 627 each day.1,007 of those were suicides. Average 2.758 each day.1,776 of those were homicides. Average 4.865 each day.30 of those were legal intervention. Average .082 each day.
Overall, for all causes of death, an average of 6,584.523 people died each day during 2000.Overall, for firearm related deaths of all age groups, an average of 78.528 people died each day during 2000.1.19% of the average daily deaths during 2000 were firearm related.
V.L.R.B!!
Thanks Ian.
Not that it matters though. Because guns are bad and children die because of them and they must be taken away to save the children!
Nathan,
Guns are merely tools that can be used for good or bad. As I said before they may as well ban bath tubs because slightly more children die from drowning every year. If people don’t want to own guns then that’s fine but don’t try and take away my choice to do so, that’s all I ask.
V.L.R.B!!
Damoon:
I know how you feel, and now know why. I won’t tell you not to feel that way.
However: you write that once the numbers are in “conceal and carry will be shown to increase the number of fatalies due to guns.” Surprise. The numbers ARE in. Now 47 states. Again, and again, and again, it doesn’t happen. Why would Kansas be different?
You further wrote: “Feisty and FULL OF RAGE !!
I could take the JR position: Gosh, Damoon, you are full of rage; I’m generally a good judge of character, and you scare me!! It looks like I’ll have to pack heat to protect myself from raging liberals!!!
See just how silly that is? The problem with some is that they just can’t see how reasonable people could disagree with them, so they assume that anyone who disagrees must per se be unreasonable.
JR takes that position. I have yet to see JR substantiate his “fear” with anything I have written which would support the idea that I am a threat to anyone because of their political positions (at least there is something Damoon said – he’s “full of rage” – to support such a position should I take it). But that doesn’t prevent JR from “fearing” me (who JR has never met – that I know of – and knows only as a poster). Irrational? Absolutely. Oh well. JR’s fears are not my responsibility.
The original writer was right. We know the result of CC – look at the states who have it. On a daily basis, you won’t even notice it.
Now: as to a previous poster (last gun thread), yes, there is a civil component to “stand your ground.” I don’t do civil work at this time, but it seems to me that some discretion, including retreating when safe to do so, makes a lot of sense. If a person draws that weapon when it is NOT necessary to protect life, frankly, they should be liable.
If the situation is clear SD, you’ll win. Yes, I know that defending is itself costly, but that statute won’t prevent a crafty lawyer from filing a case and framing an argument, if for no other reason to squeeze some “go away” money out of you.
Finally, I’d love to be in the loop on shooting day – I’d like to meet many of you, and share and learn something. But this topic is over for me as far as “convincing” others. Minds are made up. The battle is over, for now. Now we have to make it work.
It is a tragedy that any lives are lost to guns but the media rarely reports on the instances when guns are used for defence.
“I often give talks to audiences explaining that research by me and others shows that guns are used much more often to fend off crimes than to commit them. People are very surprised to learn that survey data show that guns are used defensively by private citizens in the U.S. anywhere from 1.5 to 3.4 million times a year. A question I hear repeatedly is: “If defensive gun use occurs so often, why haven’t I ever heard of even one story?”
Obviously anecdotal stories published in newspapers can’t prove how numerous these events are, but they can at least deal with the question of whether these events even occur. During 2001, I did two detailed searches on defensive gun uses: one for the period covering March 11 to 17 of that year, and another for the period July 22 to 28. While these searches were not meant to be comprehensive, I found a total of 40 defensive gun uses over those two weeks. Some representative examples:
Clearwater, Florida: At 1:05 a.m., a man started banging on a patio door, beat on a family’s truck, then tore open the patio door. After numerous shouted warnings not to break into the home, a 16-year-old boy fired a single rifle shot, wounding the attacker.
Columbia, South Carolina: As two gas station employees left work just after midnight, two men attempted to rob them, beating them about the head and neck with a shovel handle. The male employee broke away long enough to draw a handgun from his pocket and shot at his attacker, who later died.
Detroit, Michigan: A mentally disturbed man yelled that the President was going to have him killed, and started firing at people in passing cars. A man at the scene who had a permit to carry a concealed handgun fired shots that forced the attacker to run away.
West Palm Beach, Florida: After being beaten during a robbery at his home, a home owner began carrying a handgun in his pocket. When another robber attacked him just two days later the homeowner shot and wounded his assailant.
Columbia Falls, Montana: A woman’s ex-boyfriend entered her home to sexually assault her. She got away long enough to get her pistol and hold her attacker at gun point until police arrived.
Baton Rouge, Louisiana: At 5:45 a.m., a crack addict kicked in the back door of a house and charged the homeowner, who shot him to death…..”http://www.lewrockwell.com/lott/lott14.html
V.L.R.B!!
The studies by Lott and Mustard that claim CC laws decrease crime was based on faulty research, in fact research may well show that CC laws increase the number of gun related deaths, that’s according to the John Hopkins Center for Firearm Policy.Nathan, My numbers don’t come from the latest edition of “The Rifleman” or the NRA, they come from the Centers for Disease Control, The Bureau of Crime Statistics, and John Hopkins. Guns are tools used for destruction, there is no other real purpose.
“Because guns are bad and children die because of them and they must be taken away to save the children!”
My nephew died because of idiot with a gun, and what a wonderful Christian response…you insensitive son of a bitch.
Damoon,
If you want to interject your personal story to further your political cause you should have the thick skin for the disagreement.
I already said it was awful what happened:
“It is awful what happened to your nephew.”
Taking away my guns or my license to carry concealed is not going to stop accidental deaths or idiots that cause them.
If you look at my argument I am using accidental death statistics from a legitimate organization too.
Oh the CDC? Like they are not biased either? That organization has already stated numerous times they think guns should be taken away. The CDC has been the back door for trying to ban guns a public health risk.
Don’t you care about all the kids that drown every year in lakes?
The Sheriff is right, but at least the people will have a choice.
I dont think there will be a probelm CC. at first there will be some interest in carry guns but once people find out there arent that many bad guys to shoot and combined with the long list of places that ban guns; schools,hospitals,courthouses,gov. buildings,church,most large employers and what other private buisseness bans guns on their premises. people will leave them home.
Ian complains that the media doesn’t report when guns are used in self defense. Then lists media acounts of guns being used in self defense
But the bad guys still have to ask themselves: “Do I feel lucky?”
And that’s what makes crime go down where there are ‘carry Laws.”
Damoon, Guns are an “art form.” Check out some prices and collections.
Here’s a few hundred stories.
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html
Doesnt matter if the source is biased when the stories are reported by the unbiased news media.
Damoon
The “Shall Issue” concealed carry movement has been underway since about 1987. The accidental firearm death rate has been going down since before then. With millions more people owning and carrying guns in the past 20 years you would think that the acc.dth.rate would go up now wouldnt you?
I doubt that its gone down because of ccw but if you were right it should have gone up.
The reason is went down is because of the aging population. There aren’t as many young folks to wreak havik as there used to be. All crime has gone down due to the fact that baby boomers are getting old and staying home on Saturday nights, it has absolutly nothing to do with conceal and carry laws.The only crime that has increased dramtically in the last few years is the sexual exploitation of children, probably due to the internet.
It’s interesting that no police department condones conceal and carry, if it’s the solution to crime, why aren’t they embracing the idea?The CDC is as unbiased as it gets, Nathan. With gun violence costing 100 billion dollars a year, no wonder they want guns declared a health hazard, because they are.Most emergent care medical professionals favor gun control also. I guess the view is a bit more realistic when you work on the front lines.Why are you so stuck on kids drowning in lakes? I don’t think lakes kill 5,000 kids and disable another 20,000 every year. What is your point? That kids die anyway, so who cares if they die in a lake, die in a car accident, die from disease, or die by a gun? If you don’t care about children, then why do you bother to speak out against abortion?As far as I’m concerned, the life of even one child is not worth your right to carry a gun.
Damoon,
How far logically are you willing to extend your arguement that if is saves one life it is worth it?
Let me guess… only as far as your fear of guns goes.
Damoon,
I care about children. I just dont use the statistics of their death to further my fear of guns.
Once again I ask you how many of those “children” that were killed by guns were involved in gang or drug related activity?
Oh, you don’t know do you? Becuase the people adding those numbers didn’t care either, they just wanted to say X number of children died from guns so they could show how bad guns are.
Nathan,
You will also notice that the anti-gun zealots rarely make the distinction between LEAGAL and illegal firearms.
V.L.R.B!!
Legal or illegal..what difference does it make when a child dies by a gun? Are children killed by “illegal” guns worth less than children killed by “legal” guns?Knowing the way you think Ian, you probably think it’s a good thing when a gun kills a black or hispanic child.Nathan, so what you’re saying is that you’d choose a gun over a child’s life?
Nathan, the statistics say that 5,000 children UNDER the age of 14 are killed, and 20,000 UNDER the age of 14 are wounded each year. That pretty much eliminates the gang element. Why does it matter anyway? A young person dying is tragic no matter what the circumstance.I get the feeling you couldn’t care less about children.
Damoon,
So what your saying is that you’d choose to live on a lake over a child’s life?
I don’t “fear guns”, I fear morons and idiots with guns, present company included.
Damoon,
That doesn’t eliminate the gang element or the drug element.
Are you saying that only kids over 14 are in gangs?
I get the feeling that you don’t care about kids either since you live on a lake.
Your analogy makes no sense, why don’t you make an intelligent point once in a while instead of always arguing extremes. As I said before, you bring nothing to the table.
I would grieve just as much for a child in a gang as I would any child. I know that’s a hard concept for you to grasp.
Damoon,
Don’t resort to name calling. I don’t like to brag about myself, but I am a Marksmanship instructor in the Marine Corps. I have taugh hunters safety and I am a hunters safety instructor. I take people out to the range that have never handled a gun before and teach them safety.
Don’t be a hater just becuase you are afraid of guns.
I teach people how to be responsible and safe so that people don’t get killed.
I advocate for there to be safety classes taught in the school.
For some reason though, the anti-gun crowd is more against gun safety in school than the Christians are against sex education.
I find that education is the solution not a ban on guns.
Do you support gun safety classes in school?
I am the extreme one?
Lets see, did you not say this:
“As far as I’m concerned, the life of even one child is not worth your right to carry a gun.”
Who is being extreme now?
Let me mirror your statement:
As far as I’m concerned, the life of even one child is not worth your right to own a jet ski.
As far as I’m concerned, the life of even one child is not worth your right to have household chemicals and poisons under the sink.
As far as I’m concerned, the life of even one child is not worth your right to have a swimming pool in your yard.
As far as I’m concerned, the life of even one child is not worth your right to live on a lake.
How much do you care about kids Damoon? Seems like just enough to support your fear of guns to me.
When you can have a rational, intellegent debate, let me know. I’m not interested in anything else.
Do you support teaching gun safety in school Damoon?
I would only ask of you Nathan that you do your very best to monitor those “on your side” as to carrying guns.
There are a great deal of people who would legally qualify and want to carry who have no business carrying.
I spend a great deal of my time trying to educate people on gun safety and on guns.
I am sorry that some of you don’t like guns.
The simple fact is that the 2nd amendment gives us the right to have them.
You would spend your time more wisely supporting education and training then on taking them away.
JR,
Where do you get your info on this “great deal” of people that carry and have no business doing so?
It seems that concealed carry is not causing a great problem in the other 46 states which allow it.
Nathan: “Don’t be a hater just becuase you are afraid of guns.”
Farmie: “Dont be a hater just because you are afraid of gay people.”
See any similarities there?
Ian. . .ahem. Recall our previous conversation? Where you set me straight about your ideology?
Never mind. I’ll just chalk it up to a bad day. . .this time.
“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them. “Mr. and Mrs. America, turn ‘em all in,” I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren’t here.”– U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D/CA) speaking of her authorship of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban on “60 Minutes” 2/5/95
“If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the government’s ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees.”– President Bill Clinton, August 12, 1993
“I don’t care about crime, I just want to get the guns.”– Senator Howard Metzenbaum, 1994
“We’re going to hammer guns on the anvil of relentless legislative strategy! We’re going to beat guns into submission!”– U.S. Representative Charles Schumer (D/NY) on NBC 12/8/93
“Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal.”
Janet Reno
“I am one who believes that as a first step the U.S. should move expeditiously to disarm the civilian population, other than police and security officers, of all handguns, pistols and revolvers … no one should have a right to anonymous ownership or use of a gun.”
Prof. Dean MorrisGovernment employee, Director of Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA)Source: in testimony to Congress
“What good does it do to ban some guns. All guns should be banned.”Howard Metzanbaum, Jew “US” Senator
“A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie.”
Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, First Leader of the Soviet Union
A GOVERNMENT THAT FEARS ARMS IN THE HANDS OF ITS PEOPLE SHOULD ALSO FEAR THE ROPE!
GENEREL NATHAN BEDFORD FOREST
“The said constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.”
Samuel Adams
“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
Richard Henry Lee(1732-1794) Founding Father
“Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation.”
James Madison
Damoon JR
You think banning guns saves lives. Try this from a place where guns are banned.
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=16869741&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=shock-rise-in-gun-crime-name_page.html
No one carries a loaded bathtub or swimming pool. Addicts may carry drugs, but they won’t share them with you, meaning they only kill themselves.If someone breaks into your home, you never needed this new law to protect yourself. You can do that now.As for as the last comment I read, about the government fearing people, weren’t we already armed to the teeth before this law?
If people feel the need to carry guns, it’s due to the fear mongering perpetrated by the gun industry and the NRA. Just goes to show how propaganda can outshout the facts.
Just more propaganda, Heck.
Damoon
Propaganda? Do a little investigating. Check the violent crime and murder rates in Great Brittain, before the ban on handguns. Check it now. Do the same for Australia. You will notice an immediate substantial increase the year after the bans took effect.
I’d send you some links to make it easier, but you would probably call crime stats from the governments of Brittain and Australia “propoganda” if I sent them to you.
It’s common sense, you ban guns, you leave the law abiding defensless, and the criminals have easy pickings.
Damoon,
You are siding with vile jew gun grabbers against the express wishes of the Founding Fathers, congratulations!
Viva la Raza Blanco!!
Damoon,
I suppose clerks in the bad part of big cities who work at quick shops which are robbed and often times killed are just brainwashed by the NRA propaghanda too?
You only argument appears to be that any thing good about guns is simply NRA proaghanda and everything bad about them is abosolute truth.
You still did not answer my question:
Do you support gun safety classes in school?
Look upthread, Nathan. Yes, I answered your question, did you answer mine? No.How many Quiktrip clerks lives are saved by conceal and carry? Oh, you don’t know? I could have guessed as much.I think I’ve presented lots of rationale for the way I feel, but you seem to fall short on facts, Nathan. All you know is what you read in your gun magazines or hear on neocon talk radio, hardly credible sources in most people’s view.
Heckler, there were a little over 1,000 murders in the UK last year. Out of that %8 were committed with a handgun. Even if you take the population difference into account, it doesn’t come close to the murders committed with a gun in this country. As long as I can remember, handguns have been banned in the UK. I don’t know where you get your numbers, mine came from the bureau of crimes statistics.
Nathan, I answered your question on the other gun thread.If you believe CC laws reduce crime (which by the way has been disproven), then why don’t police departments support CC laws?
Damoon
Some police DEPT don’t support CC. That’s a political decision.
But I can tell you, again, from working with officers daily that the vast majority of OFFICERS do support concealed carry.
They understand, even if you don’t that the individual who goes through training, follows the law, and put himself under the law enforcement microscope to do so is no threat to anyone (except a bad guy).
You’ll see. Again. The sky will not fall here, just as it didn’t fall anywhere else. Soon Illinois will be left alone as the only state in the nation with no legal concealed carry. I suggest you move there.
I don’t honestly know whay Police departments don’t support CC laws.
I have many friends who are police officers, sheriff’s and state troopers.
The funny thing is that they all give me advice on how to carry concealed and not get caught by the police.
There is probably a big difference in the “leadership” taking a stance on CC and what the majority of Police think themselves.
Hi there, This is the first time posting here but reading this I had to post a couple things, I noticed a quote from U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein posted by Ian but he left out this quote by the Ms. Feinstein “When asked earlier why she carried that .38 Smith & Wesson concealed in her purse while promoting gun control for the rest of us, Feinstein answered, “I know the urge to arm yourself because that’s what I did. I was trained in firearms. I’d walk to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me.”Crime statistics were brought up about the U.K. and Australia and thought this article might be of some interest. It summerizes “The International Crime Victims Survey” which shows that since guns were banned in these 2 countries there violent crime rates have gone up and that these two countries rank #1 and #2 for violent crimes. Here is the link, http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902
I’ll stick by my sources. The US has the most gun violence of all industrialized countries. As far as violent crime goes, we’re not outranked by the UK or Austraila. There is no reliable study that proves violence goes up when guns are banned, only false propaganda perpetrated by the gun industry.
I’ll give you a hint as to why police departments don’t condone CC laws, Nathan. It’s because they are well aware of the fact that your average American is an idiot and has no business carrying a weapon.
Damoon,
There you go again. Anything you disagree with is NRA propaghanda.
If the average American who obtains a CC license is an idiot then you have statistics of all the stupid things they are doing from the other 46 states which allow it right?
Right?
Hmmm… I’ll see if you can dig anything up.
Damoon,Why don’t you supply a link to your information from the bureau of crimes statistics, I did a search but I have yet to find a link to a study comparing nations. If you do a search on the International Crime Victims Surveys you can find many links to this survey, the US bureau of justice uses this survey and the U.N. uses this survey. Here is a link to the PFD of the results of this survey and a link to the U.N. site that has it. http://www.unicri.it/wwd/analysis/icvs/pdf_files/key2000i/app4.pdf http://www.unicri.it/wwd/analysis/icvs/statistics.php The information in this survey shows a higher crime rate for Australia and the U.K. In 2000 the percentage of people victimized by violent crime in the U.S. was 21.1, the percentage in Australia was 30.0 and England and Wales, the UK, was 26.4. Clearly higher percentages.
So what you’re saying is that crime increases when guns are banned? Go to the sites for the CDC or the John Hopkins and you will find that there is no reliable study proving that. There are however, many studies showing that the prevelence of guns has a direct effect on the incidence of gun related deaths.The rate of violence in other counrtries has nothing to do with guns being banned, there are many factors that lead to violence, including the lack of police, the rate of drug and alcohol abuse, poverty and unemployment, etc. If you allow guns into that mix, not only will you see the violence go up, but so will the number of deaths. If you go to the sights I mentioned above, you should find the info.
Damoon,I have not stated that banning weapons raises crime. You said earlier that the crime rates in the UK were not higher than they are in the US, I showed you a study used by the UN that shows you are wrong. Here is a link to another article summerizing a study by Center of Defense Studies at King College in London that states “In the years since the ban was enacted, the criminal use of firearms has increased by 40%”. http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/flawed2.htm I also went to the Center of Defense Studies web site, on its home page the first paragraph talking about the CDS reads “The Centre for Defence Studies (CDS), part of the International Policy Institute (IPI) at King’s College London, engages in research at the highest level on British, European and international defence and security issues. CDS was established at King’s in 1990, with a grant from the UK Ministry of Defence.” So this study is funded by the UK Ministry of Defence and not NRA propaganda. You keep talking about kids getting killed by guns so we should ban all guns, well kids are killed all the time in car accedents from other people being irresponsible, not putting there childeren in car seats, inattentive driving, drunk driving. By your logic we should just ban all cars instead of just holding the irresponsible accountable. Basicly Damoon, until you can logicly argue on why to ban guns, instead of emotionally argueing like you have been here, you will not convince anyone to change there opinion. And Damoon, I am truly sorry for your loss and I am no way tring to deminish what happen to your nephew with my examples, but the plain truth is you are emotional on this subject and are not using logic which will not change any minds.
I never said anything about banning all guns. Yes, I’d like to see stricter gun control and I think conceal and carry laws are careless and wrong.I’ve seen lots of web sites that state what you say, but they’re not reliable, just because a site has an offical sounding name, doesn’t mean it is. There is a lot of propaganda based on opinion out there, not facts.One site you can try is the Australian Bureau of Statistics. It states that the total number of murders was 321 for the year 1995, and there were a total of 290 murders in 2003. These totals are lower than before the Austrailian government passed gun control laws. The argument that gun control increases crime is simply not true, there is no study to back up that claim.The UK had a little over 1000 murders last year, that number has stayed fairly consistant throughout the last decade. Of those murders, only %8 were committed with a gun.Conceal and carry laws don’t lower the crime rate. John Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research debunked the study this myth was based on, you can go to their web site to read about it. They have a lot of facts and statistics regarding gun related deaths in the US, and I trust their research methods.I don’t think I’m being overly emotional, I am basing my opinion on facts. When you consider that gun realted deaths are 8 times higher in the US than in all the other developed countries combined, and an American child has 12 times the chance of being killed with a gun, that 30,000 people die every year from gun murders, suicides, and accidents and that another 65,000 are wounded, at a cost of 100 billion dollars per year, I think we need to pay attention to the numbers and ask ourselves what can we do to lower gun related deaths.Maybe I won’t change any minds, but I owe it to my nephew to try, don’t I?
Damoon,
You do realize you keep talking about murder numbers and not crime rates don’t you?
All of Chucks studies and links are talking about CRIME not death and murder.
I think you are correct in wanting to lower those numbers of deaths in America from guns Damoon.
The first step is looking at what most of those numbers are from.
Suicide, gang related activity, murder, accident…etc…
Simply saying guns are bad is not the solution.
Lets teach gun safety to kids like you want to teach sex education.
Lets do more for suicide prevention.
The murder rate is a bit tricky. Our culture is very different. It is not just the presence of guns Damoon. For you to only look at guns in this equation is wrong.
You need to look at many things in America that are higher too. Why are serial killings in America so much higher?
Why is violence in general so much higher?
All of these things and more lead to why people are killed with guns, not just the mere presence of the gun.
I agree, Nathan, the gun is the symptom of the real problem. But guns are an easy way to kill people, especially on an impulse.The simple reason why we have so many gun deaths is because we have so many people with guns who shouldn’t have them. I don’t doubt you or your dad’s ability to handle a gun safely, it’s the irreponsible ones I worry about, and there are far too many of them. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the solution to the problem, and I sincerely hope you’re right, that conceal and carry won’t add to the number of gun related deaths in this country. We have weay too many already. Time will tell.
PS Why do you think violence is so much higher in this country, Nathan? What sets us apart from everyone else?The violent assault rate per 100,000:
USA 8.2Australia 2.0England and Whales 1.4
This figure came from the Australian Bureau of Statistics
I’d really like to know what everyone thinks about why this is.
It is a well-known fact that many americans have serious problems with athority. There are also many idiots here. Stop arguing over whether people should own guns and find a way to prevent MORONS from getting them. And while you’re at it figure out a way to educate people about guns.