Karl Peterjohn, executive director of the Wichita-based Kansas Taxpayers Network, is no convert to the downtown arena project. But he made a constructive suggestion this week to The Eagle editorial board, as he noted the public’s brief enthusiasm for the costly idea of building the arena over the Arkansas River: “The ‘wow’ factor we really need for this project is an anchor tenant,” he said. It’s true. Other cities’ new arenas are inextricably linked to the college or professional sports teams that will call them home. That issue needs far more attention in Sedgwick County’s case, and soon.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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76 Comments
Perhaps the downtown arena could be a home for a herd of white elephants. Got to go.
While I don’t often find myself in agreement with Peterjohn on this is is absolutely correct. This facility needs to be “Home of the ???s” for a number of reasons. Regular use will provide a revenue stream for operations. It will also provide regular patronage for surrounding businesses, including parking facilities. It is not realistic to expect support businesses to be able to survive on the maybe monthly big event.
Having a “WOW” building will probably entice me to visit once just to see it. I have visited Gander Mountain just to see the building I built. However, that is not something they can build a business model on; they need people to come back again and again. For this the Arena needs an anchor tenant.
Many times during the runup to this experiment I asked the promoters who would ‘live’ there; I have never received an answer. Instead, it is always “build it and they will come”
Well College sports usually kills professional sports.
The Thunder and Aviators will use it, but they are still considered minor teams and don’t recieve the public attention or the crowds warrented for anything.
The only thing that pulls crowds, other than college, is professional leagues. Pro-ball is the only thing that can happen in the arena and that is not going to happen because of WSU. The only thing close is probably a WNBA team.
I’m not for sure if an Arena needs to be a home for the “such and such”.
I would differ. I know all arenas to be multi-use, even very famous ones. Such as Madison Square Garden in NYC. Used for BasketBall, Concerts, Union Rallies, basically everything.
An arena is a mutli-use facility and not something that is the “home of the – - – ”
Now that saying. Wichita should try for an NFL expansion team. We don’t have a college football team, so we might as well go pro.
“The Thunder and Aviators will use it, but they are still considered minor teams and don’t recieve the public attention or the crowds warrented for anything.”
So what? The Des Moines arena that the pro arena folk have been pointing at as their example has a minor league hockey team as their primary tenant.
BTW, the NFL would laugh out loud at the idea of a Wichita team.
I don’t think so Todd. I have a study down by the NFL. They are looking to add 4 expansion teams by 2015. And Wichita gets a 100% rating.
Greenbay and Buffalo are much smaller than Wichita and they have a team.
But the second largest city in the USA doesn’t? LA can’t have an NFL team because nobody will support it. They like college football.
Jacksonville has the lowest attendence for NFL, because people are into the Gators and Hurricanes more.
Wichita can support an NFL team. It’s been studied. The reason why we are attractive, is because we have no college football team, and that it would bring in a lot of people from Oklahoma because they are not loyal to either Dallas or KC.
It would take deep pockets to get one, but Wichita could, but somebody (not government) would have to shell out at least 500 million just to start.
I feel pretty comfortable betting my life that Wichita NEVER gets an NFL team.
Nothing personal, but you’re blowing smoke.
You are probably right. It is quite a long shot, but possible. That is all I’m saying.
I’m not blowing smoke. What I said is all fact.
But we don’t have enough will-power or deep pockets to get one.
HAHAHAHAHA! Is that your “awesome development” Joe? An NFL team in Wichita? NOT A CHANCE!
There is only one city on the planet that can support an NFL team without a large population and that is Green Bay. They are unique in that matter. Otherwise my “5% rule” takes over – you can only look for about a 5% turnout for pro football games. 5% of a million is 50,000. 5% of 400,000 is 20,000. Nowhere near enough.
“Buffalo are much smaller than Wichita” – WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? Metro population 1,170,111 in 2000. Must be my “old math” but that is a lot more than 400-500,000 at most for Wichita!
Joe, put together an investor group and bring in an NFL team. I hope you make a lot of money.
I think you’re right Joe, we don’t have the deep pockets for an NFL team. One could not play in the arena, we’d have to build a stadium like Arrowhead or Invesco. That’s $500 million I don’t think the city can afford.
As far as an anchor tenant for the arena, it seems like the anti-arena folk–in an attempt to distort the facts to support their own case–are downplaying the role of the Thunder. Sure, the Thunder has had low attendance…IN THE PAST. This season, attendance is up 25% to over 5300 a game. Several nights the team has broken the 8,000 mark. And the Thunder’s marketing staff is gearing up for a sellout crowd March 18 against OKC. Clearly, with a quality team on the ice, the Thunder will have no problem packing people into the new arena.
I’ll admit though, the Thunder is still minor league hockey. No television contracts and no national attention. If we really want to shoot for the stars, we should consider the Arena Football League. The Stealth enjoyed a lot of success here until its owner went bellyup. It was in the AFL’s minor league, but with the success it had, a new arena, no football team at WSU, and a natural rivalry with KC, I think we could make a good case for a team here in the big league.
As far as the NBA or NHL, I don’t see the league wanting to expand here, so someone would have to buy a team and move it here. With the attitudes of the people in this city and the cost of a team in those leagues, who would want to take that risk?
Major professional sports franchises do not locate in metropolitan areas the size of Wichita, especially with a major metro area like KC only a couple of hours away. The arena will never be host to any professional sports team above the level of farm teams for the major leagues. That may be good enough to keep the arena marginally profitable if Wichita can field winning teams in more sports than just hockey.
Wichita shooting for the stars???? (giggle)
Arena football might be the best option available. IF a following can be developed then regular attendence in the 10,000 area would be a tremendous boost to the Arena and its environs. I think football might be a better fit for the Wichita market than hockey.
Maybe THAT is Joe’s “awesome development”
Ben, I hate to nitpick, but the city of Buffalo is smaller than the city of Wichita. However, comparing apples to apples, you are right in that Buffalo’s MSA is well over a million.Thanks to the addition of Sumner county to Wichita’s MSA, we now stand just at 600,000. Why Reno county is left out of our MSA I don’t know–we are closely tied economically. Add it and Wichita approaches 700,000.
Joe I believe is referring to a study done a few years back that identified the Wichita market as demographically capable of supporting an NFL team. I won’t argue with that study, it’s probably true. However, I don’t think the league would support locating a team here when mega-cities such as LA, San Antonio, and Las Vegas are higher on the pecking order. And the NFL seems very interested recently in the prospect of teams in foreign cities in Canada and Mexico.
The biggest problem in Wichita is bright people with big ideas like Joe are immediately sidelined by a swarm of negative and narrow minded people. Wichita used to be a place of incredibly crafty, innovative and aspiring people who came up with big ideas and had the perseverence to see them through. Today, it seems the city is overrun with pessimistic “Debbie Downers” who immediately dismiss any and every idea as a waste of money or “too big” for “tiny” Wichita.
Joe, keep it up man, we need more people around here like you.
You’re right, Steve, in that Wichita was the home of incredibly crafty, innovative and aspiring people,” with emphasis on people. Now everyone wants government to do it for us. The problem is that government, by its nature, forces a “one size fits all” approach, so we have people paying for an arena when they have no interest in using it.
“Major professional sports franchises do not locate in metropolitan areas the size of Wichita…The arena will never be host to any professional sports team above the level of farm teams for the major leagues.”
Incorrect. When the Wings arrived in Wichita, they played at the highest level of soccer in the United States. I know, I know, it’s still soccer. But, the fact still remains that the MISL was in fact a “major league.” With the development of the MSL and the Wings move to the NPSL, they still played in the highest level of indoor soccer. You may notice from time to time NPSL games on TV. If Wichita could support a major league indoor soccer team for years and years, one that never won a championship and played in a rundown arena miles away from town at a time when our MSA population had not broken the half million mark, I see no indication we could not support an AFL team in a state of the art arena downtown with 600-700,000 people to draw from.
Interesting point Wilson.The people of Wichita live in a cave these days. They have no clue what’s going on in the outside world. Arenas, cultural attractions, etc., are being built in other cities across the nation with tax money. We seem to be the only place that’s complaining so loudly that government is paying for it. We need to realize there are some things private industry does best, and some things government does best. Riverside park was not built by a company. Century II was not privately funded.
Yes, you can point to the few arenas/stadiums in the country built entirely with private money. They do exist. But they are the dramatic exception to the rule.
Contrary to the Libertarian point of view, not everything exists to make money. Arenas are not built to make money. When will people here get that concept through their thick skulls?
“Interesting point Wilson.”The people of Wichita live in a cave these days. They have no clue what’s going on in the outside world.”
Wow, you pro arena types aren’t very condescending, are you? I have a hard time imagining why anyone would waste time arguing with you. Just go ahead and continue with your fantasies that the NFL or NBA would do anything other than laugh in your face if you touted Wichita as a league city.
The “awesome development” from other postings is not the NFL franchise. Yes! I was refering to Steve mention of the study that was done a few years ago.
When the NFL annonced they were looking for several expansion teams in the 80’s, not many cities jump for it, but a city of Charlotte did. They started working on the idea since the announcement by the NFL they were looking for exansion teams in 1985. It took Charlotte until when, 1993. Basically 8 years in the making, promoting, getting secured money to build a stadium.
There were plenty of other areas that were larger and able to get the expansion teams, yet they gave it to Charlotte, Nashville, and Jacksonville. Hardely a “LARGE CITY” requirement.
Buffalo is smaller than Wichita, but it’s MSA is larger, because they include the city of Rochester and Niagra Falls. Plus Toronto is nearby.
The only reason the official population of Buffalo is smaller is that they cannot annex all the suburbs. Do a realistic count and Buffalo is twice the size of Wichita.
“there are 614,330 people living in Charlotte, and 801,137 in Mecklenburg County”
I know it’s my old math again but I think Charlotte is a bit bigger than Wichita. If you add surrounding counties you get well over a million people. Counties in the Old South are much smaller in area than in Kansas so you have to include more of them to cover the same geograhical area.
If I’m condescending Todd, it’s because I’m extremely frustrated with the mentality of the people of Wichita–people who think the status quo is good enough. People who think just because that’s the way it’s been, that’s the way it always will be. People who have no imagination and no tolerance for risk.
It’s a well known story that Thomas Edison failed a thousand times before he got the lightbulb to work. If he had been a Wichitan, we’d still be using gas lights.
I don’t think it’s just dandy that we all watch our city suffer and do nothing about it.
Charlotte: MSA population 1.6 million. 100-mile radius population 6.7 million.
In other words, Joe, Charolotte is a LOT bigger than Wichita. In fact, its 100-mile population is about TEN TIMES as big.
I think 6.7 million people stand a better chance of supporting an NFL team than one-tenth as many.
Again, maybe your “new math” gets different answers.
Joe, your point is well taken. The NFL did choose to expand to Charlotte and Jacksonville and left out many other larger cities. I guess population and TV market size are not its only considerations.
Thanks for your posts Joe. Just when the negativity and narrow-mindedness from some people around here seem overwhelming, you show us that there still is hope for our corner of the world. This city needs someone who can think big, has a positive attitude and displays a real sense of civic pride. Ever considered running for mayor?
Hey, bring on the scum and thugs–those acts are selling the tickets right now and bypassing Wichita. Eminem, 50 Cent, etc in concert at the new arena–that would be hot (and probably a sellout)!!!
Clarification: there are a million people within a hundred miles of Wichita.
Steve – even if there ARE a million (which is not true by the way) it is still a small fraction of the 6.7 million census figures show for Charlotte. Get your facts straight.
Just like everything else the city does downtown, I predict failure for this too…
It is not the city’s fault. It is that people around here don’t support this stuff.
The if we build it they will come mentality is going to have to stop.
Don’t get me wrong, I hope it is a success. I don’t like seeing my tax dollars go to waste, I just don’t think it will be.
Yes, Ben, there are a million people within a hundred mile radius of Wichita. There are 600,000 in our MSA. The MSA includes only Sedgwick, Harvey, Butler and Sumner counties. A hundred mile radius would include areas outside our MSA and would be a two hundred mile diameter extending from Salina to Ponca City and Pratt to Chanute.
I was not disputing your facts regarding Charlotte’s size, nor was I disputing the fact Charlotte is much larger. I am merely stating Wichita is larger than your figures indicate.
Granted. Charlotte has a very large area. The city itself is under 600,000. But the 100 mile radius is quite large in population, because it includes many cities in South/North Carolina, Virgina, and Tennesse.
It is also one of the fasted growing areas in the nation. Charlotte only had a population of 300,000 (under today’s Wichita size) in 1980. It is now double that.
Let’s take Phoenix as an example of a large city. It’s MSA is 4 million. You don’t even want to know it’s 100 mile radius.
Wichita is mid-size. I’ll grant you that. Plus it is smack in the middle of rural country. So it doesn’t have the sprawling suburbs as they do in the west and east coast cities.
Kansas City MSA is 1.8 Million. It doesn’t even have an NBA or NHL team.
It just depends. Wichita is half as big as other large cities. Plus is it pretty much by itself. With KC, OCK, Tulsa being 200 miles apart from it. It is not like cities such as Cincinnati, Columbas, Indinapplois, Lousiville, all about the size of Wichita, but combine within a 100 mile radius, sure it’s a high populated area.
What makes Wichita unique, because we are all by ourselves and not clustered around other mid-size cities. That gives us identity. That is most important of all.
Yeah! An NFL expansion team here is a pipe dream and most likely will not happen. But what we need to do is concentrate on Wichita and it’s growth. It’s vibrant and growing. It will continue to do so, so lets not get all hell bent about saying Wichita is a small puny place. It has enormous potential to do good and be a place where people would love to live in.
I’d sure love to see those numbers broken down. Maybe if we can get some of Ok City counted it might work but I still doubt your figures.
Nathan, I hear ya man. Getting people off their butts in this town can be difficult sometimes. I don’t believe the arena is being built with a “build it and they will come mentality” because projections for its attendance, economic impact, etc., are based on figures at the Coliseum. At no time did the downtown arena campaign claim that it would draw significantly more people than the Coliseum. Anti-arena folks tried to put these words in our mouths. The downtown arena at the start will have a similar number of events as the Coliseum and draw a similar number of people. Its ability to generate revenue will increase due to the presence of suites and club seats, and additional advertising space and concession areas. Naming rights will also generate revenue that the Coliseum currently does not.
We should remember an arena is managed differently and is built for a different purpose than say a science museum or an ice skating center. Comparing the two are difficult to do, but in a way I understand the skepticism due to the bad press on other government projects in the area.
Ben,I have copied and pasted the following information from the GWEDC’s website:
approximately 1 million people live within 100 miles of Wichita and 706,559 reside within 50 miles
Please go to the following link. It leads to a page on the GWEDC’s website regarding Wichita population demographics:http://www.gwedc.org/3_1.htm
Joe could not be more right. We cannot grow and prosper unless we make a committment to do so and set our goals high.
An interesting thing you mentioned Joe was that Charlotte was Wichita’s size just 20 years ago. I believe Phoenix was a wide spot in the road about the same time. These cities obviously did not just sit around and wait for something to happen. Wichita could easily become another rapidly expanding city–there is NOTHING holding us back but ourselves.
Does anyone here think the Carney brothers set a goal to run a mediocre pizza parlor??
Thanks steve. Well, I hope this thing works and encourage you and Joe to invest heavily in opening bars and restaurants in the area.
Ben, I wish I could, man. Here’s to our sales tax going back down in 24 months!
Ben, I wish I could, man. Here’s to our sales tax going back down in 24 months!
Take out a mortgage to invest!
Wow, off-line for a day or two and return to find the arena cheerleaders have clogged this blog, roasting the postings. Oh well. I can’t possibly read the avalanche of words so I will respond to a few items that jump out at me.
I don’t see any point in getting into the argument about which city is bigger, Wichita or Kansas City or Oklahoma City. There are actually other statistics that are very important to consider, for example average age of residents.
The main point of the EAGLE editorial that spawned this blog is the fact THERE IS NO TENANT NOW OR EVEN ON THE HORIZON FOR THE PROPOSED ARENA THAT COULD COME NEAR PAYING EVEN A PORTION OF THE ARENA EXPENSES.
NO PRUDENT building developer in his right mind would begin construction of a building or shopping center without an A-1 tenant signed for at least part of his project. Having no tenant is known in the trade as “building on spec,” which makes getting the construction loan very very difficult.
In the case of the Wichita downtown arena stealing, oh I mean borrowing, oh I mean strong arming taxpayers for the 1/4 billion dollars in development money conveniently circumvents this problem.
As far as determining if the arena will be profitable, the income from users/tenants ethically should completely pay for:
1) Repayment to Sedgwick County taxpayers about 10% of the development cost or $25,000,000 per year in lieu of mortgage payment,
2) Payment to the Sedgwick County Treasurer of about $6,000,000 per year in lieu of property taxes since the building will be used for private businesses,
3) Payment of property insurance on the building,
4) Payment of all utilities such as electricity and natural gas for heating and air conditioning, telephone service, cable TV, etc.
5) Salaries for all arena employees and staff,
6) Outside professional services such as for lawyers, accountants, etc.
7) Ongoing maintenance services such as snow removal,
8) And all the other normal ongoing expenses of operating a large building property.
All rental scales for sports teams, concerts, and other functions should be computed on the basis of paying these expenses. In other words, no cutting costs for sky boxes and other preferred users.
Frankly it doesn’t make economic sense to spend 1/4 billion dollars of taxpayers regressive sales taxes for this kind of project.
And of course taking 1/4 billion dollars out of the economy in taxes means 2,500 new houses WON’T be built and thousands of potential jobs will not be needed.
Along the way, disparaging comments were made about the Kansas Coliseum up north of Park City.
A caller told me the architectural design for remodeling the Kansas Coliseum which I believe was already completed would make the Coliseum a sparkling, state of the art arena for all kinds of presentations. At the same time, the three adjacent pavilions would be retained for horse and agricultural shows, gun and knife shows, etc. Most of these activities have said they will not move downtown.
Of course, the Kansas Coliseum currently offers 10,000 seats and 4,000 SURFACE parking spaces all of which could easily be increased by thousands in a renovation project.
Compare frantically driving to a downtown arena and searching up and down the darkened alleys of downtown for a parking space — with liesurely driving up I-135 to the 87th Street off/on ramps to the expanded entry/exits to the Coliseum parking lots. The furthest point in the Coliseum parking lot is about a long block from the entrance doors.
And the Kansas Coliseum made a modest profit last year!
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And I recall a statement that no development has occured north around the Kansas Coliseum. True it has taken a while. But now the I-135 corridor is Wichita area’s hottest commercial development area. Valley Center and even, ugh, Park City will be and actually already are the new Overland Park/Lenexa growth areas of Sedgwick County. And Thomas Etheridge’s Wild West Center will add another dimension as a family oriented entertainment center.
I guess we are all spinners to some degree. But the fact remains there is a gigantic split among the citizens of Wichita/Sedgwick County over this proposed expenditure of a massive amount of sales taxes for a building for which there is no viable usage. No developer would build a ten story building because he has a barber shop that might take a room on the ground floor.
Professional hockey and professional basketball won’t get it. And both will reduce attendance to some degree at WSU and local high school sports events.
What we need is a respected community leader to stand up, hands on his hips, to listen to the people explain what they do or don’t want out of this situation. There should be NO hurry to spend the peoples’ hard earned money until some 80% of the taxpayers say aloud, in unison, “YES, THAT’S WHAT WE WANT OR DON’T WANT.”
When this happens, I will happily ride off into the sunset!
My suggestion is someone with the reputation of Mr. Russ Meyer (who I have never met) or other top Wichita business leader who would agree to do this. This needs to be done before this issue splits the City, a split that might last for many years.
I also talked to several people in regards to the Coliseum’s renovation if the downtown arena vote failed and they have said that the improvements would not enlarge the concourses. Also they said that it would not improve the placing of the concession stands. The Coliseum is an out dated building in the middle of farmland. With the closest economic development being Wendys, Applebees, Cracker Barrel, and a Don Hatton dealership.
My experiances of parking at the Coliseum have not been pleasent. The idiots who somehow think that having only two exits open at the end of an event should be fired. I have gone to many things at the Orpheum Theatre in darkened alley filled downtown Wichita and I survived parking and walking 4 or 5 blocks. I got out faster than when I parked at the Coliseum. This believe that the Coliseum’s parking is so much better is something I have to disagree with.
JWink,Since I don’t insult you maybe you can answer this guestion. Why does Des Moines, A CITY SMALLER THAN WICHITA get a downtown arena but Wichita does not need or deserve one? I always wanted to know.
I think that when Cox moves out of the Union Station I think the city should move the Great Plains Transportation Museum there and then build a pedestrian crossing across the railroad tracks and people can park east of the arena. That way you can use Union Station. Surely if Topeka can renovate their old Depot surely Wichita can.
I’ve wondered this: why, if Sedgwick County did such a bad job designing the Kansas Coliseum, are we relying on the county to design and build the new arena?
Karl Peterjohn isn’t against all taxes, just taxes that people don’t get to vote on. He wants to make all tax increases voter approved. But the arena tax was voter approved, but Peterjohn was/is still against the tax. Why? To me he’s against all tax increases. The voters, no matter how small the difference between yea and no’s, still approved the tax. So stop trying to bad mouth this idea and lets all get behind it and make it work for everyone in South Central Kansas.
Wichita needs big plans to make the city grow and increase wages. The first step would to combine the County/City governments into one commission. 9 commissioners: 4 from Wichita, 4 from the county and 1 at-large.
Next would to go pro-casino, get the State to allow casinos in the downtown area. 4 to 5 resort/Vegas style casinos going from West Bank of the Arkansas River to the Old Town area. Two different types of transit for visitors: Monorail and water taxis. The monorail would connect all the casinos, the arena, and Old Town. The water taxis would be based at the New Boathouse in Riverside Park and travel down the river and through canals built through downtown Wichita. The “Vegas of the Midwest” would be born.
With the new airport terminal to be built in a few years, now is the time to get big with the ideas to improve the quality of life for all of Wichita. These few steps to build up Downtown Wichita would bring attention to Wichita and bring many different restaurants, shopping and businesses to Wichita. Then Wichita can start to think about that 60,000 seat rolling roof stadium for a future NFL team.
Keith, Wilson and Justin: One of you mentioned you don’t insult people in your blog postings. Good for you. Blogging is a relatively new phenomena. Since bloggers generally don’t reveal their identities, the style seems to be about the same as writing messages on outhouse walls. That is, no constraints on language and manners. But here, I want to reply to some of your comments.
Regarding the KANSAS COLISEUM WHICH I SUPPORT located at 87th and I-135, there are two ways it could be upgraded: remodel the present building OR build a new arena adjacent to the current Coliseum building. That way the current one could continue to be used while the new one is being constructed.
The advantages would be: 1) utilities are already there, 2) 4,000 car SURFACE parking spaces already there to which another 1,000 can be added. (True, some spaces would be needed during construction). 3) Save and continue to use the three agricultural pavilions which are so great for horse shows and gun and knife shows. 4) Great access from I-135. If new arena is constructed on the site, the seating could be easily increased from the current 10,000 seats.
Look at a map of Wichita and you will see that the Coliseum is actually closer to northwest and northeast Wichita and the suburbs on the north side. The proposed northwest wrap-around freeway from about Goddard around to Park City/Valley Center fits right into this location.
Currently there is a lot of debate about what will happen to the Coliseum property if the downtown arena is actually built.
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Your comment that the Coliseum vicinity is farmland. If you drive up there, that I-135 corridor is rapidly filling in with new commercial development and this will probably move north toward Newton over the next several years. It reminds me of the I-435 and College Boulevard corridor in Johnson County, Kansas. My small development company, Bryan Investment Company, built the first two ten story buildings in that area back in the 1970’s and it now looks like New York City.
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One of you mentioned Des Moines, Iowa and its arena. Sorry all I know is what some fellow high school graduates told me recently. They said that the Des Moines arena is somehow financed by a new gambling casino. Thats all I have been told and don’t know anything about the success of either the casino or arena.
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In regard to monorail and water taxis: I have been involved with various city governments, served on planning commissions, etc over the years. The idea of running rapid transit passenger trains along existing railroad lines has been discussed in Kansas City for 50 years. But the fact is the population density there and, for sure, in Wichita is not enough to support one.
Here in Wichita, as you can see today, the Arkansas River either runs almost empty or gushes over with heavy rains somewhere up the watershed. I have heard of the Arkansas River in Wichita occasionally running full when no rain has fallen here but heavy rain up around Great Bend.
The old Wichita Boathouse was located on the little Arkansas River near Waco and Murdoch which appears a little deeper because of the dam near the Indian Center. But there are probably several sewage treatment plants discharging into this tributary further north, perhaps from Park City, Valley Center and town of Sedgwick so this needs to be considered. Now days, all streams and rivers of any size are, in effect, sewage dispersal waterways, even though treated.
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One of you mentioned combining or as its typically called consolidating government agencies, in your suggestion city of Wichita and Sedgwick County government. This idea is usually a lot harder to do than to talk about. These governments furnish many different complicated services. Trying to eliminate oversight by reducing the total number of councilmen and county commissioners probably wouldn’t serve the taxpayers well. Perhaps some consolidation can and actually is being done between county and city firefighters and sheriff’s and police patrols.
Interestingly, the City of Kansas City, Kansas and Wyandotte County did consolidate in the past several years. There was a fellow who worked here for City of Wichita in public communications who took a similar job with the Wyandotte/KCK combined government. It would be interesting to hear his comments on this.
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Like you, I am disappointed that Cox Communications is going to move out of the Union Railroad Station if that is indeed what they plan to do. I think the City of Wichita should have tried to provide more parking space in the vicinity if that would have retained them. However, as much as I enjoy visiting the Transportation Museum on north side of Douglas, I doubt if they could afford even the utilities and maintenance of Union Station.
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If you study political science, you will find there are elections for candidates and there are elections involving money or the “public purse” as its sometimes called. Yes, in candidates’ elections, the candidate with one more than his oppponent (subject to recounts) is generally the winner. This is because most politicians serve on boards, commissions, legislatures, etc. where their votes are checked by their fellow members.
But when the vote is on spending money for public improvements, itis a different matter. In political science there is a phrase coined by a cogent observor of the American political system, Mr. De Tocqueville, that is, “tyranny of the majority.” The arena vote is perfect example of DeTocqueville’s concern — that a majority of one could spend the money of the minority of one with impunity. This could very likely create a split that would last many years in Sedgwick County unless a strong leader steps up to bring all sides together on this arena matter. If this doesn’t happen, it will probably be years before the public will again respond favorably to calls for bond approval for public improvements, etc.
Incidentally, I certainly don’t speak for Karl Peterjohn — he might have a totally different opinion. I know him but we don’t agree on all issues. But he is an enthusiastic supporter of his issues.
Briefly, what I think should be done in downtown Wichita. Forget the downtown arena for the time being. Work on the water walk project which I do support to see if it will attract tenants. If it does, extend it on east and north into the downtown area. My image is the Country Club Plaza in Kansas City with which I was associated over the years. It is great and that kind of development should be the goal of downtown Wichita.
I am not disappointed that Cox is leaving Union Station. I think that the city could help them move out. The guicker the better. When Cox bought out Multimedia they destroyed the interior of the Union Station. I think that we could make it into a great museum on the bottom floor and add shops in the rest and rent it out to weddings and partys. This town needs a good wedding reception place. Topeka has a better railroad museum then Wichita, TOPEKA!!! Of course if I know the citizens of Wichita they will do nothing and let Union Station rot to hell, instead of actually spending money and bringing another tourist attraction to Wichita.JWinkYou did not answer my guestion about why Des Moines a smaller city than Wichita gets an arena and Wichita doesn’t deserve one?
The Arkansas River is low right now because of the construction at the Keeper of the Plans site. Once that is done, the river will run at regular depth. Which at Kellogg is about 5 feet.
All of my plans would take work. Damn, no one here wants to take the time and work for what is needed. IF it takes work, forget about it. The idea of monorail in Wichita would only work if the city had 4 to 5 resort size casinos. The River can be made deeper.
—————–Cox is moving this year from Union Station to the old Sears building, 901 George Washington Blvd. Should all be moved by Late 4th quarter of 2006.
“You did not answer my guestion about why Des Moines a smaller city than Wichita gets an arena and Wichita doesn’t deserve one? ”
And again, you have dodged my question as to what logic states that because Des Moines has a downtown arena, Wichita needs one?
Todd,I think the logic in my statement is that Des Moines is smaller than Wichita and that they get an arena before Wichita is due to lack of leadership. I also think that to not build an arena in downtown Wichita would be a grave mistake. If we don’t build an arena what other cities bigger and smaller than us will build one? If you don’t think it is logical to ask why Des Moines gets an arena and Wichita does not need one then I am just going to have to agree to disagree.
Todd, Keith’s question about Des Moines has a lot to do with arguments against our downtown arena. Common complaints include our market size is not large enough to sell it out and we don’t have a “marquee” tenant. These are even greater concerns in a city like Des Moines, which is even smaller than Wichita. Why, then, were these not deal breakers for Des Moines???? That’s the point.
Winky, you mentioned there is no tenant at the new arena that would be able to cover the arena’s expenses.
First of all, anti-arena folks massacre arena “cheerleaders” for not having indisputable evidence to support their conclusions. Where is your indisputable evidence to support your claim?
Secondly, you are forgetting the Ford Center in OKC, Qwest Center in Omaha, Altell in Little Rock, Wells Fargo in Des Moines, etc., were all built with no “marquee” tenants as you might call them. These arenas are operating successfully. Are you somehow suggesting no arena can possibly be successful without an NHL or NBA team?? Sorry, it doesn’t add up.
Qwest – UniversityAlltell – UniversityWells Fargo – too early to tellFord – bigger city/metro area
Ben,Alltell Arena does not have a college team in it. University of Arkansas at Little Rock has a brand new arena to play in. If you don’t believe me, go to Alltell Arena’s website and go to their calender of events and they don’t have UALR basketball scheduled.
Ben, what does having a university tenant have to do with success of the arena anyway?? Can you show that rent charged to university basketball tenants is significantly higher than rent charged to professional hockey or arena football teams?
Remember a previous discussion, Ben, when we established that OKC’s market size is not a significant factor in the success of the Ford Center. Remember??? Remember???? Its permanent marquee tenant is also a CHL team. Please recall our discussions from previous postings before you try to drudge up a point that has already been discounted.
BTW, thanks Keith for pointing out that Altell in Little Rock has no university tenants. I had missed that fact. That makes three arenas in similar sized cities that were built without permanent university tenants.
Oh, and Ben, your post failed to show evidence that these university teams are able to cover a “significant” portion of the arenas costs.
Folks, the arenas costs are spread out over a multitude of events each year. Even the Kansas Coliseum hosts around 200 events each year–none of them likely cover a “significant” portion of the its costs, yet even Winky admits the Coliseum turns a “modest” profit. Please, please, guys, get your stories straight.
Todd, you were curious “what logic states that because Des Moines has a downtown arena, Wichita needs one?”
One poster a while back complained that Wichita is trying to keep up with the “Jones’.” Well, an isolationist mentality will get us nowhere. Wichita competes with other cities in the Midwest and across the country every time a young person considers moving to another city. We compete with other cities when corporate executives look at the quality of life in cities they are considering relocating to. We compete with other cities every time a concert act tours through the area on a limited schedule. We don’t even compete when events such as the NCAA tournament looks for arenas larger than the Coliseum.
Yes, guys, it is IMPERATIVE that we keep up with the Jones’, otherwise, Wichita will just be another Garden City someday. Who in their right mind wants that??
Steve – I’m not saying a U would pay more; I NEVER said that. As for OKC we NEVER established what you claimed; only that you make the claim and I say otherwise. I think that was also one of the discussions where you claimed that 1 million is equal to 6.7 million (Charlotte area)
I hope this experiment works. I hope that the Stealth or Thunder or somebody else comes in and fills it every week. I just don’t think that it will.
If UALR is gone from Alltell that must have just happened – it will be interesting to see the impact.
In a few years we will begin to learn the answers to these questions. I hope that I am proved wrong. After all, I will be paying for it if I am proved right!
Casinos and arenas and other white elephants are of very little economic benefit for the community at large. If it is just a matter of prestige then why doesn’t Wichita simply make a bid for the summer olympics in a few years? lol
If you think that the NBA or the NFL will come to Wichita then you are being delusional. Heck, even the NHL won’t come, they are looking at Kansas City and Seattle.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Bottom line, folks.
It’s a boondoggle. Developers and builders win, taxpayers lose. Again.
Get out while you can, Wichita, before the ground is turned. Spend the money already collected on real needs, and repeal the tax.
Or some day, those sane among us will be saying “I hate to say I told you so, but . . . “
Attendance update:For anyone who believes current Coliseum tenants cannot bring fans to games or that our local sports teams are “moribound”:
The Thunder is now ranked SECOND in the Central Hockey League in average attendance per game. The only city we currently trail is the Oklahoma City Blazers. We have greater attendance than some much larger metro areas including Fort Worth, Austin and Memphis.
Thanks to everyone who said our teams cannot draw fans. Just yet another claim you make that actual facts do not support.
Ben, I’ll agree you never said a University would pay more. But your post listing Qwest and Alltel as having a U was apparently in response to the subject over whether an arena needed a tenant to cover a significant portion of operating costs. I was then confused, wondering how a U would possibly make any difference, so then I asked the question to clarify if that was your point since your original post was ambiguous at best. To ask my question another way, what difference does it make whether or not an arena has a U playing there? Please enlighten the rest of us.
Again, there is no evidence justifying your claims regarding OKC. There is evidence justifying my claims. I could tell everyone on this blog that the sky is actually green, but I better have something to back it up. Until you can provide evidence, I win.
Also, as I mentioned in our Charlotte debates, I never disputed your Charlotte figures. I was merely correcting the claims regarding Wichita’s population. Charlotte is significantly larger than Wichita, you are correct.
It’s funny that the anti-arena people persecute the arena “cheerleaders” because of our promises of the arena’s success. But then anti-arena folks do the same exact thing and promise its demise, “just wait and see.” I have yet to see any evidence to support claims that any arena anywhere has not been successful. I’m waiting, but I’m not seeing. For every arena that is successful, you guys invent lame excuses for its success and never back up any excuse with actual facts. Sooner or later, you will run out of excuses. Am I wrong in assuming your point is that the only place in the world where an arena could possibly fail is Wichita, Kansas?????
GMC70, I’m still waiting for the “I told you so’s” on Century II. There was massive opposition to the city spending bond money to build it–and today it is arguably the most beloved asset this city has. No “I told you so’s” on the Coliseum, either, at least regarding its ability to generate a “modest” profit, a fact one anti-arena poster even admitted.
To Arena Cheerleaders: Funny, I get the feeling I’m communicating with masked banditti because I don’t know who you are. But anyway …
Since you can’t come up with logical reasons for a downtown arena, you are reduced to name calling, “why can’t anyone get this through their thick skulls”, and verbally slapping around the smaller suburbs in Sedgwick County. And you have set up “straw men” in the form of various cities supposedly with arenas around the country to try to compare with from afar. Of course, we don’t know the whole story in these other cities to know how they are paying for it, what it replaced, or why it was perceived to be needed, etc., etc.
By now, most of the people of Sedgwick County know the proposed arena is a boondogle of the highest degree, a white elephant, to use the regressive sales tax for a bad use when Sedgwick County and Wichita have so many very important needs going begging.
If you weren’t so blinded by your infatuation with a downtown arena and when you get some maturity, you will understand what I am talking about.
I’m busy today so please go back and re-read my previous postings more carefully.
It seems to me that the success of any arena is going to be based not only on the proposed venues, but also on a thing called “disposable income”. Has anyone done a real comparison of these other cities to see what the average household disposable income is compared to Wichita? If Wichitan’s have little they will go little!
Winky, “masked banditti”???? At least I’m posting with my actual name.
We have come up with logical reasons for the downtown arena, it’s just that you won’t listen. Economic development, civic pride, and having a decent place to enjoy sports and cultural events are ALL logical reasons. But you act like we haven’t even responded. On most of your points I try to make a reasonable counterpoint (occasionally we even agree on something). What really gets under my skin is the apparent lack of willingness of the opposition to even acknowledge our answers to your questions.
You act like none of us have done any research. “…We don’t know the whole story in these other cities to know how they are paying for it, what it replaced, or why it was perceived to be needed…” Don’t be so sure, my friend.
By far the most uninformed and speculative comment ever made on this blog is your own, that some 90% of Wichitans now oppose the arena. What is the source of this information? Your own conjecture?? Jerry, people tend to surround themselves with others who think and act like they do. If I were to poll people I know (friends, coworkers, classmates, etc), 90% would probably be in favor of the arena. In the end, what really matters is that during the democratic and very legal and binding vote in Sedgwick County, people felt the arena was a necessary economic development tool and a better buy than spending $100 million on a barn in the middle of nowhere.
I’m not infatuated with the downtown arena. In the beginning, I was in favor of remodeling the Coliseum. If I’m infatuated with anything it’s the potential of Wichita to be a truly great city. But we cannot achieve this goal by maintaining the status quo. We have to take appropriate risks, we have to have some vision, and we have to learn from the successes of others–we have to ACT like a truly great city. I have nothing against suburbs, but sinking millions into the tiny burgs surrounding Wichita will do little to benefit Wichita.
Kansassam, you bring up a good point. Last I knew, Wichita’s average household income was right at the national average and comparable to other nearby cities. I don’t know the latest figures but you have made me interested in finding out.
Given what aircraft people make, the rebound in aircraft employment, and the national economy of the past few years, I’d be willing to bet that generally speaking, Wichitans are faring pretty well.
To help you, Steve, you might consider one of the goals of Visioneering Wichita:
“Stop the 21-year decline of Wichita per capita income as a percentage of U.S. per capita income before 2011. By 2024 exceed the annual average of Omaha, Tulsa, Kansas City and Oklahoma City.”
What does this say to you about Wichita’s income?
A couple observations from a former Wichitan now living Des Moines.
One, while the “We need the arena! vs. the No we don’t!” discussions are entertaining, what’s the point? The arena is going to get built no matter what, right?
It seems to me as if the good people of Wichita need to do everything they can to try and make it successful. I can’t imagine why anyone would actually want it to fail.
The best thing for everyone is if it can succeed. Even those who hate it and are against will be better off if it can do well.
Second, being here in Des Moines with the brand new Iowa Events Center (Wells Fargo Arena and attached convention center), I don’t know that we can be a good predictor of success for Wichita.
The downtown here is far different than Wichita for one thing. Downtown is already a destination: 65,000 people work downtown and thousands (yes, thousands) of new loft, condo, and apartment units are being constructed downtown. There’s also lots of other public and private investment going on downtown.
Is the Events Center responsible for all the new investment? I would say not entirely, but it did signal that downtown is a worthy place for investment and that there’s yet another reason for people to come into downtown and spend money.
But it’s not all about money. It does add to the cultural and entertainment scene of the city and region. Which helps us compete with other cities. Like Wichita.
Another thing that’s different is the funding. The Events Center was paid for by a $50 million grant from the state and $150 million from bonds backed by rents and profits from the local casino and horse racing track.
The sales tax is actually a better way to fund it, it’s collected and you’re done. So that’s good for Wichita.
You do need a primary tenant though, and possibly privatizing management and operations.
So what’s going to happen with the old, pathetic Kansas Coliseum?
Arena Cheerleaders: I guess a difference between you and me is that I believe in the free-enterprise system. You, on the other hand, appear to be liberals who believe that government should pay for everything. You probably wear T-shirts that say, “From everyone according to their ability. To everyone according to their need.” That’s a long time Socialist motto.
That’s probably not criticism. Just a reflection of the direction of thinking of society today.
According to Mark’s post above, the Des Moines, Iowa, arena is being paid for by about 25% from the State of Iowa and 75% by income from a new gambling casino. Although I am against gambling, at least the cost is from gamblers, not from the taxpayers. That’s basically what I heard from friends who just moved out of Des Moines.
Remember, I was one of the first to call for an arena to be built on the east side of the ICE SPORTS building and south of Lawrence-Dumont Stadium. My idea about two years ago before the tax-funded arena drive began was to go out and find private sports investors to build the arena. This step was left out by the cheerleaders when they saw the possibility of strong arming the money from the taxpayers.
However, I have since become convinced the best path is to either remodel the existing Kansas Coliseum or build a new Coliseum adjacent to the old one and then remove the old one.
Another factor is whether or not the dog-racing track adjacent to the Kansas Coliseum is going to get slot machines.
In downtown Wichita, the best answer is for the City of Wichita to establish EAST and NORTH Urban Renewal districts and put a planners office physically in those districts. Take a year to inventory and plan and talk to the citizens of the area and of Wichita generally to decide what everyone wants there.
Kansas City’s Country Club Plaza district could serve as a goal.
Personally, I think the best chance for Wichita to stand out is to build an INTERNATIONAL BOWLING CENTER with all the bells and whistles. The purpose would be to attract tourists to Wichita from all over the world to the banks of our ARKANSAS RIVER. This would work. The downtown arena funded by taxpayers is a horrible idea that we don’t need.
Wilson, the Visioneering statement is an excellent observation. Do you happen to know where we stand right now compared to the national average? Since we have been declining for a long time, it would be interesting to know if we started way ahead, were at average, or were way below.
Mark, thanks for your observations from Des Moines. Even though Des Moines is smaller than Wichita, I’ve always considered it as a model for Wichita to follow. The city and its people seem to be progressive, open-minded, risk-taking, and full of civic pride. An acquaintance of mine is from Des Moines and she raves about it. Wichita would do well to learn from Des Moines’ example.
No one has determined what’s going to happen to the old and pathetic Coliseum. It could be demolished, or it could revert to its original purpose as an arena for agricultural shows. At any rate, no matter what happens to it, none of us in this part of the world will ever have to endure the embarrassment of bringing out of town visitors to the Coliseum after 2009!!
Coliseum – how about as a warehouse/distribution center? Right on I-135, near K-196 for access to I-35, rail lines. Labor supply nearby.
JW – I agree about doing Brownsfields alone the Canal Route; particularly the couple square miles between 135/Broadway/13th/27th. The environmental issues can be dealt with easily.
“Personally, I think the best chance for Wichita to stand out is to build an INTERNATIONAL BOWLING CENTER with all the bells and whistles.”
I don’t agree with many things you say, but I LOVE this idea.
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. I am not a socialist. Just because I believe that government is better equipped than private business for doing A FEW things does not make me a socialist. I have already said on this blog that I am a Republican and against government funded social welfare. In fact, I am against government funding of most things–with the exception of economic development. I absolutely agree with you that the free enterprise system works and that people should be self-reliant, however, I also acknowledge that SOMETIMES free enterprise needs a little motivation. This happens every day in Wichita and other major cities across the nation in the form of IRB’s, STAR bonds, subsidies, you name it. Using government funds to help economic development helps the rest of us in the long run. You’re going to have to get used to the fact America is not a pure Capitalistic system. Our mixed system has helped us became the largest and most powerful economy the world has ever known, and we are still a hell of a lot less socialist than most other countries in the world.
Regarding your arena south of LD, you have to realize private investors interested in building arenas in cities like Wichita are few and far between. Hell, even in huge metropolitan areas, private arenas are extraordinarily rare. The owner of the Stealth had been interested in building a private arena, but it was to be bare-bones and even smaller than the Coliseum. His interest was giving the Stealth a place to play, not building a landmark building for the benefit of the city as a whole, a place for concerts, NCAA tournaments, etc.
As a “cheerleader”, I am not personally interested in your tax money. None of it goes directly into my wallet. Instead, I am interested in making this city a more attractive place to live and do business. I am also a realist–finding an investor to build an arena comparable to the one we will have in three years would be impossible. OKC could not do it, Omaha could not do, Little Rock could not do it, even your beloved Kansas City could not do it.
You are aware that remodeling the Coliseum, your “best alternative,” would have cost about $100 million of our property tax money? And under that proposal, we would still be left without a building capable of hosting NCAA tournaments. It would have been too bad that, with the rebuilding job Turgeon has done at WSU and the real possibility they could be playing in the dance this year and years following, that they would never host. Building a new arena next to the Coliseum would have cost undoubtedly much more–and it still would not have near the same economic development potential as the downtown site.
Bowling again??? Come on Jerry, you want a “modest” sports arena but a state of the art bowling center??? Please be serious.
Steve, since you have alluded to the fact that you are an accountant, would you please tell us what GASB statement 34 means in relation to the downtown arena, and how it was accounted for in the financial projections that were presented to the public in 2004?
Wilson, I found the following information on the GWEDC’s website:
Average Annual Pay : $34,760(7.2% below the national average of $37,440)Source: Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics (November 2004)
On the flip side:
Overall Cost of Living Index: 93.9(6% below the national urban average of 100.0)Source: ACCRA Cost of Living Survey (Q3-2005)
My take is that netting the two of these figures puts us at 1% below the national average in comparable dollars. I haven’t been able to find what our average household income is, which I think would be a better measure. What do you think?
Let me read up a little on GAS 34 before I make any sweeping comments, but my initial reaction is that projections for the downtown arena centered primarily on economic development and not the financial operations of the arena itself. I don’t believe any projections were made as to the arena’s operating results other than the admission that these buildings do not generally generate large profits–if any–but that the profit motive is not the reason these buildings exist. Let me look at GAS 34 pretty close sometime today and I’ll get back to you ASAP. Great observation!! Wilson, you give the anti-arena arguments credibility. Thanks for your input on this blog!!
It’s interesting seeing these discussions from a distance after having lived in Wichita for 15 years (we moved to Des Moines in 2003).
I was surprised to learn the long-talked-about arena was actually going to be a reality there. I saw many failed attempts to get that done when we lived in Wichita.
Steve, you’re right, everyone around here is very proud of our downtown and quality of life. The pride in the city is different here than in Wichita. There’s challenges and arguments here like anywhere else, but overall we like moving forward.
Even so, there’s a few who make sure to point out any event in Wells Fargo that doesn’t sell out to say “See the place is a failure!” They’re a definite minority though.
I think what Wichita needs to do is reach some sort of “critical mass” to move forward downtown. Will the arena help get that going? Do the good people of Wichita really care enough about downtown to invest in it and make it a destination?
But now the city and county there have a big stake in saying it’s a priority, so it’ll be interesting to see how that plays out.
But you have to start somewhere, and the arena is a good step. For everyone’s sake there I hope it succeeds!
Wilson, sorry for the delay; governmental accounting only makes sense when you are extremely drunk, so it has taken me awhile to review some of these concepts. The major accomplishment of GAS 34 was the mandate for governmental units to issue both fund financial statements (which was required before) and government wide financial statements (which were not required). It seems like what spurred GASB to issue the new requirements were a series of local government financial crisis in the mid nineties, partly blamed on the inability to know the true economic position of the government unit.
With government wide statements, it is possible now to measure what is called “interperiod equity,” or the extent to which current financial resources cover current expenditures. For example, the federal government is notorious for using future revenues to cover current expenditures (of course, the feds are exempt from GASB, hmmm…).
I am not sure how Sedgwick County will handle accounting for the arena. Perhaps it will be its own fund, or maybe it will be under another fund, such as public works. I hope for the sake of scrutiny it is its own fund. Someone on a message board during the arena campaign once commented that they obtained financial records for the Qwest Center in Omaha and noticed no depreciation in the reports. This is because non-cash expenditures like depreciation are recorded separately in what they call a “General Capital Assets and General Long-term Liabilities general ledger”. Of course, the rules are different still if the arena ends up being what they call an “Enterprise” fund, which the statements resemble more a traditional business format.
The point of my rambling: I’m not sure the method Sedgwick County will use to present financial data for the arena. The financial data they did present to the public during the campaign was not related to the arena itself but rather to the economic impact to the area around it. These figures were determined by an independent study conducted by WSU and KPMG. I don’t believe any county official even uttered a word about the arena’s profitability–I believe other officials like WDDC’s Ed Wolverton even mentioned it will most likely operate at a loss, and he was absolutely right. Sedgwick County was very upfront about the existence of the reserves built into the budget to help offset losses the arena could incur for the next 20 years.
Mark, don’t stop checking out these blogs. It is great to hear your perspectives. I think you really touched on something that Des Moines has and Wichita needs. You asked, “Do the good people of Wichita really care enough about downtown to invest in it and make it a destination?”
You really hit the nail on the head. The great people of Des Moines care. Sometimes I really question whether the great people who live here really care about the city as a whole, not just downtown. You see it in these posts all the time and we experience it everytime a project comes along that has the ability to improve the quality of our living experience in Wichita. We have an inferiority complex and are extraordinarily down on ourselves. I don’t know how it got that way and God only knows how to fix it. This is a great city with ENORMOUS potential, but a seemingly insurmountable lack of willingness to realize it.
Can you put your finger on what makes attitudes in Des Moines different? On paper the two cities are similar, but you don’t have to dig too deep to find out they’re strikingly different on the inside.