My column Friday wonders aloud about the sanity of the human race, and its future prospects, taking note of scientists’ accelerating warnings on global warming and America’s almost pathological refusal to admit the threat.
According to a Washington Post article, most scientists now agree that human-driven climate change is occurring. Instead, the hot debate is whether we’ve reached a “tipping point” beyond which the changes become irreversible and unstoppable.
Some scientists fear we’re already there. But the media seem more concerned about the threat of Dick Cheney with a shotgun.
Meanwhile, President Bush is safe in his White House bubble. Too bad our children won’t have that luxury.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- ANTI on Open thread 11/24
- okobserver on Open thread 11/24
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/24
- DavidB on Open thread 11/24
- ANTI on Open thread 11/24
- SolDevVB on Open thread 11/24
- ANTI on Open thread 11/24
- okobserver on Open thread 11/24
- okobserver on Open thread 11/24
- SolDevVB on Open thread 11/24
107 Comments
Oh my God! We’re all gonna die! Now before you go running around like a bunch of chickens with your heads cut off I just wanna tell you not to worry about the O-Zone layer anymore… Because we have no more goddamn O-zone layer! There is much progress being made in creating alternate energy resources though. Hydrogen fuel cells in cars is an excellent example! However, it’ll be 20 to 30 years till the technology is available to make hydrogen fuel cars much less expensive. (If hydrogen fuel cars were on the market now, it would cost several hundred thousand dollars EACH!) Don’t worry, over time, it will become marketable and the price will go down due to improvements of technology. And when everybody goes hydrogen, Honda is gonna kick our a$$es!
I know this is completely unrelated, but Matisyahu Miller is really doing well these days! God! I love that music!
I once heard that the true sign that you are insane is to come to the believe that you are the only one that is sane. With what has been happening in the world of late, I am really starting to question where I am fitting in on that subject.
I recently expressed my concerns about it being so warm in January and February, the weird weather patterns of the last few years. Weather does follow some weird patterns at time so it may not be out of the ordinary for us to have some warm days. But I must admit I do not recall it ever being this warm in these months since moving back from southern Oklahoma. As much as I hate winter (that being the reason I move to southern Okla.), even I know this is not good. Ignoring a problem does not make it go away just because to face it means that it is not what you have in the plans. I work for a company that has such a philosophy, just because it would be against the law of nature and logic does not mean it can not be done if that is what we planned to do.
It is the same here, the evidence is there but if we ignore it is not happening. And of course if we are wrong and the human race does destroy the climate till nothing survives. That is OK because there would be no one left to deal with it. As long as today we can continue to party and enjoy ourselves without having to sacrifice anything we hold as easier. But in the end, a sacrifice now would mean less of a sacrifice later and could mean that that sacrifice would not be a matter of life or death..
Yes, we have reached (and perhaps passed) a tipping point. We have entered into positive feedback loops in which warming begets more warming. Disruption of vegetation leads to both a reduction in carbon sequestration and a release of more carbon. Warming and drying of sub-polar soils releases carcon as CO2. Melting of snow/ice cover decreases planetary albedo.
As climatologist W.S. Boecker put is so well way back in 1990:
“The inhabitants of planet earth are quietly conducting a gigantic environmentla experiment. So vast and so sweeping will be the impacts of this experiment that, were it brought before any responsible council for approval, it would be firmly rejected as having potantially dangerous consequences. Yet, the experiment goes on … ”
And he said this 16 years ago.
Good post, Randy, with one exception. You wrote, “America’s almost pathological refusal to admit the threat.”
Oh no, my friend, it’s not AMERICA that refuses to see the threat–it’s the conservatives.
Example A is CrusX above. And Hank and Nathan and Raptor are sure to weigh in with their industry-funded bogus “science” hogwash.
Then you’ve got the irrational “end time” Christians who don’t care about the environment because they’re gonna get raptured (Raptored?) and taken bodily up to heaven (strangely without their clothes) while the rest of us are scourged with Armageddon.
Don’t blame “America” for what is entirely the fault of the right-wing, bought and paid for by corporate status-quoism.
Don’t forget what other countries are contributing to the problem. China has the most polluted city in the world.To those who don’t think it’s a real threat: What would it hurt to clean up our act anyway? Driving fuel efficent cars and finding alternatives to fossel fuels will benefit us in more ways than one.
CrusaderX,
Has it occured to you that, in the event that the scientific community is correct, the riskier animal to be is the Ostrich with its head stuck in the sand? Moreover, once the tipping point has been passed, technologizing our way out of it won’t be an option.
Everybody else,
Indeed. The Wingnut response to the scientific data, and to what people can see for themselves, is the same as it always is: ‘who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?’ As ProudLib points out, they’ve got the marketing to make it stick.
What’s funny–but not really funny–is then to watch them say that WE’RE the ones who are ’stuck on stupid.’
I agree the evidence is clear that there is global warming. What is not clear is how much man’s activities contribute. What is even less clear is what, if anything, we can do to stop the process. And is it worth it to attempt to if we do not know that we will be sucessful? Maybe it would be better to spend our resources to adapt to the changes.
I’m all for “green” technologies and finding alternative energy sources. These are common sense steps. But let’s not get crazy, wreck the economy, only to find out we cannot change the process. Or have some big volcano blow, change everything back, and demonstrate how little control we really have.
PL,I believe to word to be “ruptured”, as in, ” my thoughts have been ruptured by my own ignorance”. To expect an intelligent discussion with the right-wing, who are mired in thoughts of flying up to heaven naked (O, my, do you think they might be the virgins the terrorists are killing themselves over? I shudder), is to expect an intelligent discussion from Rep. Bonnie Huy on intelligent design.
The fact that Greenland’s glaciers are melting at an unprecedented rate, the rise of CO2 levels above anything seen in the past, and the unpredictability of the el nino/la nina cycle, should wake people up, but when your sleeping with (so aptly out) your head in the sand, good luck.
Outlander – you are wrong on both of your points. It IS clear that it is anthropogenic and we DO know things we can do to ameliorate the situation.
An awful lot of my fellow scientists have studied this very extensively and have published their results. They go into great detail both about what is happening and what can be done.
What are you doing about it?
MOTHER–Dont you expect this from the bushies? 1. There is no global warming 2. If there is, it is not our fault and there is nothing we can do about it. 3. If you think we are wrong, go cheney yourself and start over again with point one.
Isnt that the usual “logical loop”?
Todd – I don’t have a whole lot of power to do much about it AND YOU KNOW THAT! I am NOT the president, I do NOT set policy. I do my little bits – try to conserve energy wherever I can. I use less than half the average American amount.
Your question would be like me asking my doctor what HE is doing about my weight or diet. All he can do is tell me what is happening.
What do you think I should be doing?
Actually, there are a growing number of evangelical Christians who are leading the cause of stopping global warming. They are sometimes called “envirogelicals”.
See this NYTimes article:
http://www.theocracywatch.org/env_evangelicals_warming_times_mar10_05.htm
“Leading the cause”?????? Not even close. They are laggards only finally admitting there is a problem. They are still a day late and a dollar short.
It’s funny how some of you idealogues can politicize any problem. Do you really think that if Kerry was president, he would seriously address the problem, if indeed there is a problem? If so, you’re incredibly naive.
Ben,I guess you can dismiss them if you like, but I and others are hoping that they can bring their political clout to bear on the Bush administration. Since GW et al. seem disinclined to listen to scientists, I for one, would welcome any help to the cause that evangelicals can bring – even if it is a day late and a dollar short.
DD – I hope you are correct. I am not saying I am not happy to have them finally admit reality; I’m just not willing to call them leaders.
Todd – I submit that it is YOU who is politicizing this. Where did I say Kerry would solve this? I didn’t and you know that.
While there is a lot of pollution in China the fact remains that the U.S. is the worlds #1 producer of greenhouse gas causing global warming. When the industialized countries get together to work out a deal to reduce greenhouse emmisions, under the leadership of the U.S. (Clinton), the conservatives brush it aside and ignore the problem completely. To them there is no problem because the ‘experts’ who advise them are too ignorant of the facts to do their jobs correctly. And when a real expert tries to voice their opinion the conservatives silence them.
http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article345926.ece
Ben – did I name you as one of the idealogues? Try knocking some of that sand out of your giner.
Read through the topic and see who it is that is politicizing it.
Todd, I doubt that Kerry would have pulled out of Koyto(?sp). I believe Kerry would have provided the leadership in this matter that is severly lacking in the current administration.
k – Then you are incredibly naive.
Kerry wouldn’t have sacrificed American jobs at the altar of the Kyoto treaty, and it’s pretty dumb to think that he or any American president short of Ralph Nader would have.
I am sure that Ben knows this better than most here, but weren’t the targets set by the Kyoto treaty incredibly low and actually would not have helped that much, even if they were met?
What I am saying is – any progress is progress, but Kyoto did not really ask much from anybody. That is what I understand, any way.
ksfrmgrrl,Remember the “What’s life” circle? Reminds me of what we’re hearing from the blinders crowd. They’re more concerned with the next American idol (well, that guy with the gray hair is kind of cute) then what’s taking place in their own front yard.
When I lived in Wichita back in the late sixties and early seventies (I think . . . being a semi-reformed band beeyatch, it’s difficult to remember), when winter came around, you could count on at least two months with snow a foot or more deep. Now you get two inches, and people freak. Seems to me people would be able to subtract two from twelve and come up with warmer weather. That is, unless they have their collective heads in the ubiquitous mind-numbing sand.
DD – you are absoluteyl correct. Kyoto was only a beginning. However, if we had started moving back then we could have a better foundation for progress today. I particular, the developed countries could be setting an example of progress in energy management rather than the opposite.
A number of things will be needed including efficiency, conservation, nuclear, wind etc. It won’t be easy. In fact, it will be a whole lot more difficult today than it would have been had we acted back in 1990 when Dr. Broecker made his “experiment” comment.
I think the bottom line is: if we do not stop greenhouse gas emmisions, and continue the trend of wasting energy, as we are now, the human race is doomed to extinction.
Should we continue the way we are, most of the worlds’ ice will melt. heat from the absortion of solar energy via the water, would create a cloud cover. That cloud cover would reflect the suns heat back into space. The ability to retain the heat from the sun will be lost, and we will enter into another ice age. It is likely there would be no survivers. Sounds like fun to me, don’t it?
See, even an old beeyatch like me understands the basics of science. It shouldn’t be that difficult for the “everythings hunky-dory crowd” to understand. Of course I’m assuming some “intelligent designer” won’t step in and correct the problem.
Always so much fun when you come to play todd. Do you dare read this?
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/murray200410301615.asp
Wanna take a look at his voting record?
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/senate.html
I am NOT a kerry supporter. But certainly he would be better than bushco on the environment, including global warming.
I hate to drag out this old canard, but logic would dictate that when you’re in a hole, you need to stop digging. Kyoto wasn’t much of a response to climate change, but it was a start. I look at things like the Clear Skies Initiative, and I just have to shake my head. There are so many things we could do to at least slow down what any sensible person knows is coming. Wind generation, solar, and nuclear power have been around for a long time. Why are we so stuck on oil?
I think that like a lot of issues, conservatives don’t care about the future beyond “their future”. It’s like the deficit. If it doesn’t hit in my lifetime, who cares? And don’t count out the “endtimers”. I saw a program the other night where endtimers said climate change makes no difference because we’re right on the verge of the rapture. There are people in power who believe that.
Watch the Opinion line for the next few days. Sure as hell, some dullard is going to point to the current cold snap as evidence that global warming is a hoax.
Oops, that’s XXX
Yup, you got the conservative logical loop ALMOST right, FrmGrl.
It’s 1. deny that problem exists, 2. admit that a problem exists but then claim nobody (especially the little old powerless President of the United States) can do anything about it, 3. admit that a problem exists and government can do something about it, but that the Democrats are just as bad and would do the same thing.
Todd seems to have run through all these possibilities in a single post, perhaps a record.
Would Kerry be better than Bush on protecting the environment? Would any living human being be better than Bush?
Yes.
If we cast our minds way way back to 1998 or so, the much-maligned Al Gore wrote a bestselling book on the environment entitled “Earth in the Balance.” Conservatives ridiculed him for it.
Lastly, Todd, protecting the environment doesn’t cost jobs, it creates them. Wind towers in Kansas creates jobs right here.
If research serves me right, the Kyoto Protocol was initially drawn up December 1, 1997. And, refresh my memory..who was President that didn’t sign it then?
Hmmm..could it possibly have been Bill Clinton? Nawwww….not possible. Must have been a time warp.
raptor – you are correct.
Global warming is very real but it is primarily a natural, rather than a man made phenomenon.
V.L.R.B!!
XXX–
Small problem with your statement about: “I think that like a lot of issues, conservatives don’t care about the future beyond “their future”.
Seems that the liberal environmentalists in California, for example, have gotten bans passed on any additional oil drilling off the coast. They have also successfully stopped construction of nuclear plants in CA.
Of course, the Woody Harrelson’s of the world still drive their Mercedes to banning oil drilling rallies…
Jesus Mary and Joseph! I love to see how people politicize this as if this was a predominantly Right Wing problem and that the Right Wing is primarily culpable of global warming. As if people on the Left dont drive SUVs or use air-conditioners, aerosol cans e.g. Lysol, and fart! The U.S. was consuming 25% of the world’s total oil production long before Darth Bush Jr. AND Darth Bush Sr. came to power! Do you imbeciles even know what the numero uno contributor to global warming is!? It’s not factories emitting greenhouse gasses, it’s not cars, it’s not even liberal flatulence, it’s COWS. That’s right, I said COWS! So before you go telling China to clean up, factories to shut down, and people to use horses as their primary means of transportation, look to Kansas and to your cattle-ranchers and tell THEM that the flatulence of their many heads of cattle are the number one cause of global warming!!! Ignorant liberal pukes! Go Cheney yourselves!
ROTFLMAO!!!
Raptor, let’s use a little common sense here. Drilling for more oil in environmentally sensitive areas doesn’t really do much for our future and prolongs our dependence on oil. Shouldn’t we at least try to cut back on oil usage considering we probably have hit the tipping point on world oil production?
As for nuclear plant construction, my opinion on that diverges from the opinions of a lot of my Liberal friends. As for building them in Cali, that might not be such a good idea considering California’s penchant for earthquakes. But on geologically sound sites, I’m all for it. Of course there’s the spent fuel issue to consider. I suggest a nuclear waste dump in western Kansas. There’s very little water left to polute and everybody is leaving anyway.
“Of course, the Woody Harrelson’s of the world still drive their Mercedes to banning oil drilling rallies…”
So what’s your point?
Just an observation of seeming hypocrisy…driving a gas guzzler while protesting oil drilling, usage and comsumption.
Mother,the assertion by climatologists that we will enter another ice age is plausible, but is not definite. There is disagreement among climatologists that another ice age will occur as a direct result of global warming. Some of them make the assertion you have posted about while others make a “Waterworld” assertion.To all the liberals i’ve loved before:Don’t think you can mess with a Jedi like myself, the Discovery Channel and National Geographic is second only to the Force!
CF,Why worry about something that isn’t? A man’s a fool to live his life worrying about things that are NOT. This “tipping point” is still being debated by the majority of the scientific community and all they seem to be doing is speculating when this “tipping point” is going to occur. They have neither agreed upon a definite date when the “tipping point” will occur. I know that you know that it would be foolish for you to make an argument about this “tipping point” issue while having nothing but scientific speculation to back it up. I know you are smarter than that.PL,What happened to us? All i was saying in my first post was that it was silly to despair about the “tipping point” because it is still just speculation. No one can say with absolute certainty when the point of no return for our ecosystem will take place. Further I stated that hydrogen fuel cars are a step in the right direction to slow down the process of global warming. I was not being sarcastic about that, and if you see Honda’s plans for Hydrogen refueling stations I think it would be plausible to say that they are way ahead of our American manufacturers. However GM has been taken steps in the right direction, go check out their site.
Of course if you really want to hinder the effects of global warming, you would have to kill all those cows that produce methane and CO2 when they fart, because that is the number 1 cause of global warming. However my democrat friends, killing those cows will get you in trouble with some of your (as the Rightists would put it) “tree-hugging” constituents??ROTFLMAO!
CX,The “waterworld” fantasy conjured up by so-called climatologists is just that: fantsay. If the ice caps, and the glaciers melt, the water levels will rise. As such, more heat, solar radiation, will be retained by the water.
Water, as you know, evaporates. That is where clouds come from. The more evaporation, the more clouds; the more clouds, the more earth cover; the more earth cover, the more solar radiation is reflected back into space. The resulting cooling will result in massive snow falls and ice formation, freezing the oceans.
The addition of massive amounts of new ice will reflect even more heat back into space. The skies will clear, but the earth will be frozen. The day after tomorrow, but taking place over about one hundred years.
If nothing is done to stop global warming, I would advise buying property with deep geothermal wells, digging in and building underground habitats, geothermally warmed.
It would be a good idea to learn hydroponic gardening, holistic medicine, and a million other things we have forgotten in order to survive as a species, because it will last for over a thousand years or more
There will be an ice age, and we better be prepared for it . . . If nothing is done about global warming. And you can bet FEMA isn’t going to be there to help.
This isn’t us; this is our children who will pay the price of our arrogance. Shoot, it’s that time of the month again.
Mother,But the climatologists disagree whether the “Big Chill” will occur and that it would be a direct result of global warming, which is the point I was driving at. I am not a proponent of the “waterworl” theory either.
CX,If the big chill occurs, it will be the direct result of global warming, man made or not. The only other things that could cause it would be the sudden loss of the moon, a catastrophic meteor strike, or a super volcano, such as the one in Yellowstone national park.
Mother – your scenario seems quite unlikely based on my readings in both the current literature and in paleoclimatology. The only “ice age” sort of thing being suggested is a Younger-Dryas type temporary chill around the North Atlantic caused by a shut-down of the thermohaline circulation. This would be caused by low-density fresh water being introduced into the North Atlantic by melting Greenland. A similar event occurred when the Laurantine ice sheets melted and dumped into the N Atlantic via the St. Lawrence.
BH,That’s right! That’s exactly what they said on “The Big Chill” on the discovery channel!Something about some ocean current changing or something or other,and that Europe would be covered in a sheet of ice. Then they presented counter-arguments which I forgot.
That’s why you don’t mess with a Discovery Channel / National Geographic fan like myself!Muhahahaha!
CX,it’s something or other, and something but you forgot, and that’s why you’re a discovery channel fan? Hmmm , , ,Ben, That scenario would work fine if it took place on a small scale, but we’re talking global here. The cloud cover, the reflected heat, the cooling of the oceans, would slow down and eventually stop the currents that distribute the climatic changes in the world. There would still be tides, but slush doesn’t move do much to create heat. It will also slow down the jet stream. I reiterate: Ice age . . . long term.
Oh yeah…
Now we are at a “tipping point”
When you can’t stir up enough BS with the pseudoscience rhetoric you have been spouting then lets try a new scare tactic.
It is too bad that most people are too lazy to ever do any actual research on their own when it comes to stuff like this.
“PL,What happened to us?”
Oh, okay, you’re still my favorite conservative, CrusX, not in the “Brokeback Mountain” sense, but you know what I mean.
“This ‘tipping point’ is still being debated by the majority of the scientific community and all they seem to be doing is speculating when this ‘tipping point’ is going to occur. They have neither agreed upon a definite date when the ‘tipping point’ will occur.”
Crux, I guess you’re still being ironic {scratches head in puzzlement. . .}
But, Crux. . . you are aware that the “tipping point” is the “point of no return,” right? They’re not talking about whether we will experience significant changes–that’s a given. We are going to–hell, already are!–facing some pretty dramatic changes, and for many years to come, no matter what we do. Too late to stop that. Outside of a handful of dissidents, there’s no real argument about it anymore.
And scientific ’speculation’ is not (usually) just uninformed guesses, ya know? Have you read any scientific publications lately?
The only real question remaining is whether we’re dumb enough to keep making it worse.
Soon 8 million New York Zionists will open their doors to 88 million rats treading water.
We are playing at dice with the future of the planet.
Think on that. I beg you to think on that.
I’m encoraged that some Christians have stepped up to encourage our stewardship of the planet. It’sa helpful start.
Now I know that some here are of a Rush Limbaugh trained school of thought. Rush says “It is impossible for us to change the Earth, therefore it is impossible for us to “save” it” FOr those folk…..please go away, wait for the rapture or whatever.
Before I go on, I observe that even a dog does not shit in it’s own bed.
We are the dominant species on this planet. Some percieve that God made it so. Others see humanity as the ultimate accomplishment of many billions of years of the evoution of life. Whatever.
We are either absent Godly intervetion as chosen stewards of this Earth or merely the highest life forms on it. In either case, we owe our very best efforts to making this planet a home and treating it as such.
If any of us had the least fear that our home was in peril…..even from the smallest perceived threat, wouldnt we act?
My son is 11. Now I know some would tell me his homeis not here but in heaven or hell or some other place. But for now his home is here. I need to be able to tell him that it will always be here and that I am doing my very best to make it so.
Stop with the studies. Stop with the speculation born of procrastination. We are changing this planet. We better take pause on what we change it to.
Please.
Maybe our congress will do something to address the situation. But it will have to wait til the gays are stopped. We need to address the destruction that all seven of those couples have caused or might cause if they were allowed to steal one of our marriage licenses.
uraliah,What the hell are you talking about? You, Ed and Ian been getting together and taking stupid pills? Am I nuts here, or am I missing something? What do gays have to do with global warming? Never mind. I have a feeling coherence is beyond you.
Mom, I think I detect a note of sarcasm in uraliah’s post. Lighten up.
Great post JR. “Before I go on, I observe that even a dog does not shit in it’s own bed.” It really isnt any more complicated than that, is it?
Uraliah, too funny too. Mother,I was irony impaired myself the other day. Uraliah is making your exact point, the two have nothing to do with each other yet we spend our time worrying about “god guns and gays” while the future of our children is in peril.
XXXYou make a good point in your statement—”conservatives don’t care about the future beyond “their future”"
Proof in point– borrow and SPEND in place of tax and spend.
Tax and spend WE pay now – Borrow and spend our kids and their kids pay.
Gentle people,
Where does one begin? There is definitely two sides to this argument, good points on each side.
Its an interesting argument that does go on on many levels.
Is the earth warming? Maybe, maybe not. If so, does it have to do more with natural cycles, or is man to blame? If it is warming, is it even a problem? Maybe, maybe not.
Are ‘greenhouse’ gases involved and if so, how much does man contribute to the greenhouse gases?
One thing for ceertain, the Kyoto Accord is nothing more than a political farce that actully does nothing to address the problem. If anything, it would make it worse by penelizing countrys that are already taking steps to improve admissions and giving third world developeng nations (the worse offenders) a pass.
One thing for sure is that anybody that can’t debate this issue without flameing the others religion or political party adds nothing to the debate.
Personnally I don’t think there is a problem. If there is a problem, I don’t think man is the cause, or the cure. I can debate my views in a calm and courteous way and we all might learn a little. Or we can take the flame approach and have great fun.
Hank
Uh, Hank,The US is the worst offender, considering we produce 25% of all greenhouse gasses.
MOTHER, would this be the model you defined so well?
“Personnally I don’t think there is a problem. If there is a problem, I don’t think man is the cause, or the cure.”
Hi Hank, good to see ya!
Hank, I do not know a single scientist who agrees with you. And, as I AM a scientist I know many scientists and I read the literature in the field extensively.
Dear ksfarmgrrl,
Good to be back! Had to make a speed run to MO yesterday. Resting up today, I’ll generate a few greenhouse gases and take a nap!
Hank
Hey Ben,
What kind of scientist are you? What things do you do research on? Your statement is pretty anecdotal and conveys little information other than you need to broaden your horizons.
Hank
Duh, MOTHER, my point…Why, thank you, anonymous. Ksfarmgrrl gets it – My point is that this issue of gays is really great for getting the pews out to vote for the republipewks, hence Frist’s decision to get the marriage amendment back out there for November turnout. The fate of all living creatures on this planet can wait in line.Expect a rise in sealevel of 21 feet, experts predict. Americans should have no fear.I’m envisioning a response of Presidential proportions.The Prez sez this about those 21 feet: I…I…uh…uh…uh… er…That would be 10.5 people, right? snork Right? uh…uh…uh.Or 5 dogs plus one named Lucky.Hehehe. Right Brownie? Good job!
PhD Chemistry; BS Geology; MS Environmental Science.
I do not claim to be on the cutting edge of climatology research but I strive to keep up with my reading of the reports of those who are.
With my interests in energy, environment, geology, etc, I suspect my horizons are a bit broader than yours, at least in these areas.
How about you Hank?
Hey Ben,
Pretty impressive! What are you doing with all of those degrees? Having a bunch of degrees doesn’t make you a scientist.
Personnaly I’m not a scientist, nor do I have any degrees. But then I’m not claiming any expertise.
Funny with all of your reading and all of your broad horizons you haven’t heard of the 17,000 scientists that have signed a pettition that claims they don’t believe the climate of the earth is warming.
Also, approximately 50% of climatologists polled do not believe the climate is warming. Also, funny you haven’t stumbled accross any of the reports that show evidence that the earth might be actually cooling down .07 degrees per year.
I suspect you are no more than an academic teaching in a local university.
Broaden your horizons. Read reports that will make you think.
Hank
Actually I am familiar with all those things. And that they have been thoroughly debunked. And I DO read reports that make me think. Perhaps you should try it yourself.
And your suspicion is wrong.
Ben is being modest. I have to confess that I have Googled his name before and he is more than an academic, for sure.
Ben, you know a little about land fills from what I have read. Plus he knows about making boats/canoes from unusual materials. No?
Thanks DD – yes to landfills. Not a whole lot about canoes except how to turn one over! ;^) Great at dumping small sailboats too! (learned that at CalTech)
By the way, just for the record: I have no vested interested in the Global Warming issue except for the fact that I live on Planet Earth. I do not work for any companies involved nor own stock in them (except perhaps through broad-based mutual funds) In other words, no “conflicts of interest”
Sorry about the canoe/boat person, that must have been someone else.
When I saw the references on your expertise on the internet, I thought, ‘yes, what a perfect intersection of the different degrees Ben described’.
Note to Hank: You’ll need to find someone else to disingenuously marginalize. Somehow, I am sure you are up to the task.
And, there is no shame in being an academic, unless you’re a Republican that is.
Thanks DD. By the way, the coach who taught me to sail always told us there were two kinds of sailor – those who HAVE dumped a boat and those who WILL. I made it through my time at CalTech without dumping one but did so several years later on a lake in New Hampshire. Taking a tiny Sunfish out in gusty winds with almost 6-foot waves was probably NOT a good idea! But it sure was fun.
Always sail at the edge – and make sure you like swimming!
uraliah,my apologizeeeeees . . . i have been thuroughly chastised, and, after the stupid pill wore off, understand you comments. Must be my time of the month.
ksfarmgrrl,Would you be refering to the statement, “”Personnally I don’t think there is a problem. If there is a problem, I don’t think man is the cause, or the cure.”, or Hank himself? LOL
third world developeng nations (the worse offenders)
Perhaps this is true in your world, but this is not certainly not the case on a little planet I like to call “Earth”.
Well, I’ve been gone for nearly an entire day (I know you missed me so much) but I still want to hear the Dems / liberals on this blog propose solutions to this “point of no return” situation. Any takers?
CX – the various things that need to be done have been repeatedly pointed out over the past several decades. Basically it all boils down to decreasing the use of carbon fuels, stopping deforestation, reforesting areas that have been cleared, increasing carbon sequestration in soils (this can benefit KS farmers), finding ways to incfease carbon sequestration in the oceans.
It would have been a lot easier had we begun a few decades ago. It will be tremendously more difficult a few decades hence.
Nuclear, wind, solar, biomass … all of these should play a role.
As for the cost – what has this past way-out record Atlantic storm season cost?
Oh yes, those wonderful third world countries are so clean and orderly.
HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) — The corpses of at least 20 newborn babies and fetuses are found each week in the sewers of Zimbabwe’s capital, some having been flushed down toilets, Harare city authorities said, according to state media Friday.
Town Clerk Nomutsa Chideya said the babies’ remains were found among a wide variety of waste and garbage cleared by city council workers unblocking sewers and drains in Harare.
“Apart from upsetting the normal flow of waste, it is not right from a moral standpoint. Some of the things that are happening now are shocking,” the state Herald, a government mouthpiece, reported Chideya as saying.
Acute shortages of revenue and gasoline in the nation’s worst economic crisis since independence in 1980 have crippled public utilities and garbage collection services across Zimbabwe.
Hospital fees and charges for scarce medicines have soared. Church and charity groups blame economic hardships for an increase in illegal back-street abortions.
Chideya said workers removed at least 20 tons of sand from sewers every day. Inflation is running at 613 percent and many impoverished Zimbabweans, unable to afford cleaning materials or detergents, use sand to scour cooking pots and household dishes.
Salt is also used as a substitute for toothpaste.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/02/17/zimbabwe.fetuses.ap/index.html
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
BH,and what about those cows that are the number one producers of C02? You do know that cows are the number one producer of C02 don’t you? Perhaps we should stop eating beef and start eating sea food (kinda hard around here in KS) or maybe we should just be vegetarians? Those points are good points you made, but what about those farting cows that are producing C02 depleting the O-zone layer?
No, CX, I do not know that because it is an Urban Legend. They are, however, a significant source of methane. That should be addressed, largely through what they are fed. Just like with us, the amount of methane produced depends on diet.
And, by the way, CO2 has nothing ot do with the ozone layer.
Look, just kill the cows! Dammit!
lol…
It was CFC’s Crusader which they claimed were destroying the ozone.
Specifically the Chlorine part which breaks down the O3.
Don’t get me started on that topic though. Just another example of politics and science mixing for the worst.
I am not arguing against the possibility that the earth may well indeed be heating up.
what role humans play in this is what I dispute.
This is the same old doomsday science at it’s worst.
This is not some stupid show like The Day After Tomorrow no matter how much you goofball’s want to portray it to be.
It is funny how we are at a “tipping point” and that now not only is the earth heating up, but now it might be too late for us to do anything!
LOL
When you can’t get enough attention with your other rhetoric I guess it is time to start using the scare tactics.
You are correct Nathan that it is the CFC issue RE: Ozone. And yes, for you to talk about it would be more “Just another example of politics and science mixing for the worst”
Fortunately the release of fully-halogenated CFCs has pretty much stopped and they have been replaced with HCFCs and HFCs which have much less effect. Thus ozone levels in the upper stratosphere are recovering.
If that is what keeps you warm and comfortable at night Ben.
At the very least Dupont is happier now since they replaced their expiring patent on CFC’s with their new one on the substitute…
Nope, no politics involved there.
I watched several video’s in my Chemistry class in High School. The video’s all talked about the harm of CFC’s and how we were destroying the ozone with their production.
The funny thing is that they were all funded and sponsored by Dupont.
It was as if Pablo Escobar was making films on how Cocaine is bad for you… LOL
I’m so disappointed in you Cru. The cow fart thing is a direct lift from Rush Limbaugh. And while cows are a significant source of methane gas. You and Rush wrongly blame the cows! I mean last I checked, large scale herds of domesticated animals were a MAN MADE construct. This requires a MAN MADE answer and not simply blaming the cows. Am I wrong? Hmmmmm Millions upon millions of buffalo once roamed this same land…..and methane from them was “strangely” not causing climate change.
The point is there ARE answers for the part mankind plays in global release of greenhouse gases that are….I did say ARE causing global warming. The fact that global warming is occuring is absolutely beyond any dispute. And unless anyone can provide even the smallest evidence to the contrary, (and that does NOT mean trusting Mah hah Rushie) Then we better put party aside and act in any way we can.
JR,
I see we are still playing the game of you have to refute my claim or it is right…
LOL
Damn how I hate to waste time on nathan.
Global warming is irrefutable is not my claim nathan. It is the concensus of the scientific community including top scientists at NASA and NOAA. Surely you know nathan of bush admnistration direct efforts to silence these folks. A blog a few days ago addressed it.
So now you admit it is a claim.
We are making progress now.
I knew there could be hope for you after all JR!
“I watched several video’s in my Chemistry class in High School.”
LMAO Ben Huie, with all your years of study, take that. I assume you are now properly chastized!! LOL.
You go Ben!
Watched the 60 Minutes segment on global warming last night. It was about 90% hogwash.
They were blaming the hurricanes on global warming which was entirely false. Initially global warming (if it is happening) will have the effect of dampining hurricanes. Initially the melting arctic ice will have the cool the oceans. Sea water temperature is the driving engine behind the hurricanes, therefore, if the ice caps are melting the chance for castistrophic hurricanes is lessened.
There was so much in the 60 minute peice that was just BS i don’t know where to begin.
Hank
Wrong again Hank. In case you haven’t noticed the melting ice of Greenland flows into the North Atlantic, not the Gulf of Mexico. So, to a first approximation (assuming no disruption of currents) it has no effect on Gulf temperatures. They are heating due to overall warming effects and this heating has been measured and documented.
Now, to go past that first approximation. As for know, fresh water is less dense than salt water. As a result, the cold fresh-water lens formed in the north Atlantic will not sink. This disrupts the thermohaline circulation pattern which depends on the sinking of cold salty water in the North Atlantic. This, in turn, slows the Gulf Stream. That slowing of the Gulf Stream results in less hot water leaving the Gulf through the Florida Straights. That then leads to less cooler water entering the Gulf from the Atlantic. Thus the heating of the Guld intensifies further.
The 60 Minutes show was based on good science.
Now, if we could just get all that cold glacial meltwater to flow down the Mississippi …
Gee Hank,
Maybe you should contact the major climate research groups around the world since they can’t make any predictions about what the initial effects of global warming will be, given that the feedbacks are so nonlinear and so interdependent.
Try this simple model for giggles.
x[i+1]=r*xi*(1-xi)
pick a value of r and a value of x between 0 and 1..compute the right hand side, then plug the result back in and keep doing this…interesting and unexpected things happen with r between 3.4 and 3.6. Try it with 3.5..and if you can’t explain this simple feedback loop you have no business commenting on a far more complex model.
JR, Hey I didn’t get the cows thing from Rush Limbaugh, I got it from seeing a documentary on the discovery channel about chloroflourocarbons and it’s effect on the ozone. I’m not an expert on the global warming issue, I just got that from what I saw, so sue me then!
Actually Ben,
I know more about the ocean currents than most. I also realize that the gulf stream goes by Greenland in a NW direction.
The surface water temp in the Gulf of Mexico is affected very little short term by the artic and antartic ice melt. The waters off the Azores and the Canary Islands where most tropcal storms originate are effected more by the currents coming south from the north atlantic.
Katrina, curiously enough, lost energy as it transversed the gulf, it built up to a cat 5 after passing the Keys, and was a cat 4 by New Orleans.
Most climatologists aggree that last year’s storms were just part of a natural cycle and had nothing to do with global warming.
I wonder why nothing is ever said about the fact that the sun seems to be in a warming trend.
I wonder what man did 10,000 years ago to end the ice age.
I wonder why the layer of the atmosphere that would be most effected by ‘greenhouse’ gases doesn’t seem to be warming.
The earth may actually be in a warming trend, but there are still scientists on both sides of that issue.
I wonder what happened to the great ‘ozone hole’ scare a decade ago.
I wonder what happened to the ice age that was coming only 30 years ago.
I wonder what’s for supper.
Hank
Solar “Constant” is changing – over billions of years. In fact, that is a very important factor to understand climate over the entire Phanerozoic. However, the rate is only about 1-1 hundredth of one percent over a million years. So, if I am talking “long term” I include variation in solar radiation; over short times (millions of years) I don’t.
The storms of the past season got their “kick” after they entered the Gulf. Yes, they were spawned out east but they got interesting in the Gulf.
Ozone – an unrelated issue, is still real. However, as pointed out above, it is improving as we have addressed it.
Most climatologists do NOT agree that the severity is part of a natural cycle. The NUMBERS are cyclical; severity has moved outside of the envelope of cyclicity.
What “layer” are you referring to?
What coming ice age? If you are referring to the one expected in several thousand or tens of thousands of years (Milankovitch) it will probably happen but will be lessened.
Katrina entered the Gulf at Cat 1; became cat 5 in the Gulf, and weakened slightly to 4 in the shallow waters at the edge of the Gulf.
I see you have changed from “melting arctic ice will have the cool the oceans” to “affected very little short term by the artic and antartic ice melt” In fact, the Arctic melt will have a minor increase effect in the Gulf; overall warming is the greater effect. Measured temperatures are at record high levels.
Man did nothing 10,000 years ago to end the ice age. Milankovitch did. We all know that!
Southward current will probably not be greatly effected – just not quite as cold and a bit less saline.
Dinner is pork roast with pineapple on rice with green beans.
Hey ksfarmgrrl,
Did not say I watched those videos to show my credintials. I was making a point on how it was politics.
Nathan – just because Corporate America has chosen to exploit something does not mean that it was politics in the first place.
If a company came out with a cure for cancer and then advertised it would that make cancer “just politics”?
“I wonder what man did 10,000 years ago to end the ice age.”
Funny, I thought you believed in a 6,000 year old earth.
Good point Tara!
BTW Ben, we have the very best pineapples here for your pork roast. Perhaps I should FedEx you one.
Dear Tara,
Here we are mixing science and politics, now do you really want to bring religion in?
Love ya, thanks for thinking of me!
Hank
Tara – you in Hawaii?
Nice shot TARA!
Hank? Hogwash is when you take a bath.
60 minutes report o global warming showed the arctic ice cap in photo comparison between 1979 and present. Unless you say pictures lie, about a fifth of it was gone.
“Scientists on both sides of the issue”
Uh seems pretty one sided to me. Is Rush Limbaugh a scientist? I must’ve missed that.
The only way to resolve this issue is to burn all the oil and gas and forests and grasslands as fast as possible, and release huge quantities of raw methane and fluorocarbons at a rate unseen in all of history. Then we can measure the effect. Then we will know how much we have to do to correct it.
Until then, blow on, blow on, oh winds of wonder.
TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!
NEOCON POSING AS JR K AND PROUDERLIB!
TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!
WOW I got my own personal attacker!
I must be getting on some nerves!
In the words of the immortal Mark Twain, “Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it.” Which is probably just as well, given not only how little we actually know about the ins and outs of our climate, but how much we can’t know. We’d likely screw it up worse than it already is! A better course of action would be figuring out how we can live with global warming.