As far as we’ve been able to tell from Eagle archives, Sedgwick County officials never said the arena sales tax would end the instant that $184.5 million was in the till. But an early end would seem to be a reasonable expectation, now that the 30-month, 1 percent sales tax is ahead of schedule, having raised $4.8 million more than anticipated in its first five months. Many taxpayers may not like hearing that because of lag time necessitated by the state, they could end up overpaying for the downtown arena by $15 million or more. Our editorial on today’s opinion pages explains how this could happen and why County Commission Chairman Ben Sciortino says “it’s a good thing,” and urges officials nevertheless to try to end it early if at all possible.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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72 Comments
It’s all good. :)
Sales Tax is the most fair tax we have, because it taxes consumption. The more you consume, the more you pay. The poor, they get refunded for their sales tax, so it’s a win win.
30 months is 30 months. I believe most people that voted for it, including myself, knew that the chances of this arena funding being cut short are very slim.
It’s all good. Even with the Arena Sales Tax, Sedgwick County is still a lot lower than other counties in Kansas.
With government, how could we expect not to be overcharged? And would we expect a county commissioner to believe that extra taxes being paid are anything but “a good thing?”
Sales tax is the LEAST fair tax we have. Sales tax is a regressive tax because those least able to pay the tax, actually pay the biggest percentage of their income for it. What does that mean?
In Kansas, groceries, medicines and clothes are charged a sales tax. In some states, sales taxes are not charged on these items thereby leveling the playing field.
Additionally and more importantly, many services used by more affluent people are not charged sales taxes. These include doctors and dentists charges, lawyers fees, professional fees of various kinds, and, yes, even the charge for your newspaper subscription or from a newspaper vending machine.
So, this means that the wealthier people who might choose to attend a few functions at the arena have effectively evaded paying for the upfront 1/4 BILLION DOLLARS for construction of the arena and for all of the upfront “fun” costs of planning the arena out of someone else’s billfold.
A great example of “tyranny of the majority” as described by the erstwhile Mr. DeToqueville in his book, DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA. And a split that will remain in Sedgwick County for years to come.
So, Wink…you are saying that my neighbor avoided sales tax on his new, grossly oversized and expensive SUV? Are you telling me because he makes a decent living, he avoids paying sales tax on the clothes his family wears?
Are you telling me because of his income bracket, he is not paying sales tax on the gas he buys for his gas guzzling SUV? He skates out on paying sales tax on the expensive lunches he buys because of his salary?
Tell me, how do they know NOT to charge sales tax on people who have lots of money? I am really curious about this one.
Sales tax is unfair in the sense that if all your income is spent on groceries and other staples you have no choice. However, I do have a choice to by a new car, and a choice how much to spend, thereby limiting the sales tax I pay. I have no problem with sales tax, but I do think it would be fairer to exempt groceries and other staples and charge a higher percentage on everything else. As to the poor getting their sales tax back,could you explain how?
Regardless of the perceived “fairness” of a sales tax, let’s face it, we are going to be ripped off by the overage.
Would they end it early? Not in our lifetimes. I don’t think any politician has ever met a tax they don’t love.
What do you mean? Sales tax for the working poor are refunded back to them? You ever done your State Taxes?
I have recently completed several tax returns by people who make low income (in USA Standards). I did it for free and out of the goodness of my heart, because it saddens me that a professional tax preparer charges the working poor family over $100 to do their tax returns.
Also! When did the tax structure get so complicated that an average person cannot even do their own tax returns and must pay professionals to do it for them. What an extorition.
Anyways! The poor (the more poor you are considered the less taxes ,if any, you pay.) Basically on a low income person with a child or two will get back in a refund from both the State and Federal government much more then they ever put in for Income and sales tax.
The only tax that you cannot get back, deduct, or recieve any pre-tax contributions to plans such as 401K, Health Care Accounts, Education credits, and the list goes on is Social Security and Medicaid/Medicare. It becomes the largest tax burden for the poor and middle class and in most cases, is the ONLY tax a person or family pays. Together the tax rate for those can be as high as 15.3% for the self-employed and 7.65% if you have an employer that pays the second half. And this is tax on your Gross Income and not on consumption, so the tax burden is extremely high and hurts the poor the most. That is why they call it the Payroll tax. Of course Democrats don’t want you to touch this tax and even want to raise it. It is for their benefit to keep the poor as poor as they can be and as dependent as they can be.
Sales tax doesn’t because it is refunded by the state to cover basic neccessities that you have spend.
Joe – we were told loud and clear that if revenues came in ahead of projections the tax would terminate. Are you telling us that they should reneg on that promise?
Any over-collection should go into the general fund; not into a cost over-run fund for the Arena.
What’s the difference? When the arena begins losing money, just like every other public endeavor these morons undertake, they’re going to find a revenue stream to dip into somewhere. I’d rather pay a sales tax than increase my property taxes any day.
Joe W.
Do you suck or what?
“Of course Democrats don’t want you to touch this tax and even want to raise it. It is for their benefit to keep the poor as poor as they can be and as dependent as they can be.”
That’s why Bush cut taxes on the rich? That’s why he’s cutting education by billions, cutting Medicare? That’s why the number of poor in America WENT DOWN 8 years in a row under Clinton and WENT UP 5 years in a row under Bush? That’s why the median wage went UP 7 out of 8 years under Clinton and went DOWN 5 out of 5 years under Bush (in inflation-adjusted dollars)?
Okay, the verdict is in: you suck.
Also, it’s patently untrue that most people don’t pay any taxes except payroll taxes–”in most cases, is the ONLY tax a person or family pays.”
They pay sales taxes, and in Kansas they even pay sales taxes on food.
They pay property taxes whether or not they own or rent. The landlord passes the costs on.
They pay taxes in the form of license plate tags.
They pay all kinds of taxes and fees on their phone line and gas and electric service.
What you’re doing is parroting the right-wing party line that if one doesn’t have to pay income taxes, their tax burden is minimal.
You have to just shake your head at folks constantly saying, “Bush did this” and “Bush did that”.
Most of the time it required an act of Congress to accomplish, but hey let’s blame the executive branch. Sure the President proposes a budget that reduces/slows spending in some areas while increasing/speeding up spending in others. However each time it has to pass through the Congress.
Take the No Child Left Behind Act. Idiots always are blaming Bush. Who was the chief architect of that legislation? Ted Kennedy, but I’m sure Karl Rove was pulling his strings at the time. It’s not like Teddy to get his feet wet.
As always, you learn more about people when they speak than about whatever they are talking about.
The Arena is going to open 40 to 60 days behind schedule because some idiot proposed a plan to put the Arena over the Arkansas River? It took me about two minutes to read the article in the Wichita Eagle, and then an almost instantaneous moment to realize the idea would never happen. How in the world did it put the end of the project back 40 to 60 days? Come on, people! That is simply rediculous! On another note, the county commissioners had to fly to Little Rock, Arkansas, stay in 4 star hotels, and rack up a huge bill to tour the facility? I’m all for this project, and think it is a necessity for the growth and development of Wichita, but please do so being fiscally responsible. The Arkansas trip could have been done as a day trip, or if it is a must, drive down, stay the night at a reasonable hotel, and come back the next day. The cost of the project is being paid for by the taxpayers, please keep that in mind. Every stupid idea that comes along does not need a 40 to 60 day investigation.
I would agree with some of the folks on this blog who say a sales tax is regressive. It is. Rich people may pay a greater nominal amount of tax, but it is a lower percentage of their income. But we should remember that many economically disadvantaged taxpayers can claim a state deduction for sales taxes paid on food. This includes residents who are over the age of 55, are blind, or have dependent children. And Joe is correct that many–if not most–poor families receive a refund for a greater amount than what they paid in income taxes, thanks to the Earned Income and Child tax credits.
Anyway, you know what I think is funny? During the campaign people griped about how the sales tax would never raise the promised $184 million because people would leave the county to make their purchases. Then there were those who complained (and still do) that the tax would never go away.
Now, today, those same people complain that WHEN the tax ends, it will raise more than $184 million.
Just goes to show some people don’t really know what they’re complaining about, they just want to complain about something.
Someone implied that if the tax collects more than $184 million the county promised the tax would end early. This is not correct. The county promised the tax would not last longer than 30 months, and legally it cannot. The county did say if more than $184M was collected it COULD end the tax early. The situation is that the state will need three month’s notice to end the tax early, and it can only end collection at the end of a calendar quarter. So if the full $184 million has not been collected by 24 months, it probably won’t end early. I trust that all of us on this blog have a basic knowledge of how the arena project is being supervised, so I shouldn’t have to remind our anti-government contingent that a panel of CITIZENS is actually overseeing the collection and distribution of the sales tax and will make a recommendation on whether or not to end the tax early when that point in time comes.
Thanks for your post Steve. You are a breath of fresh air.
You make a lot of sense there, Steve. Twice in two days I have actually learned something on this blog!
In all the conversations about the proposed 1/4 billion dollar downtown arena that I have read/heard in the EAGLE, the various Wichita TV news stations, radio station talk shows and various blogs — no one, I repeat no one, has come up with a real use for the arena that makes sense.
Remember “form follows function.” How can the arena be designed if the function is unknown.
Back when the arena election took place, about 82,000 voted against the arena and admittedly maybe 83,000 voted for it for a total of 165,000 voters. According to my informal poll, I believe 90% of our voters would vote against it if they could vote on it tomorrow.
This is a terrible split among Sedgwick County voters that will remain for many years.
Unfortunately Sedgwick County doesn’t have a real politician who can stand up before the people of Sedgwick County and express a large vision, without spin, that people would buy. But I don’t see anyone on the horizon now who could do that.
Meantime the little group of about 200 hard-core pro-arena folks will continue to attempt to spin this white elephant for all its worth.
Incidentally, how much money has been spent so far for the arena including cocktail parties, travel, meetings, advertising, political advertising, consultants, etc. I have heard its over a million and possibly a lot more. If there is a “citizens oversight committee,” who are they and why not publicize the expenditures?
I cannot believe people would think it is a White Elephant. This is going to be a great addition to our city.
Sure we can have nothing or the small Kansas Coliseum, but it would place Wichita in a real bad competition delimmea. When Cities like Little Rock, Des Moines (Cities smaller than Wichita) Omaha, Colorado Springs, Oklahoma City, and even Tulsa is building a downtown arena, you would put Wichita in the caboose or not even on the right tracks?
Yeah! The tax payers are footing the bill and that may be the bad thing, but it is an investment regardless if it gets filled up all the time or not. It is about presence and that is the key to attract new businesses in our area. Des Moines is spending a BILLION dollars renovating their downtown, much more than Wichita. Omaha is spending money like crazy too and they are attracting all kinds of businesses and head quarters.
I’m sorry! If we don’t do this, we will be left behind. We must pay the price for being an attractive city and raising the standard of our area. It is called community pride. Most people against it seem to have lost that community pride or really think low about Wichita.
$200 million for an arena that will be used for the next 30 to 40 maybe even longer years is a great investment. Wichita will most likely double in population in the next couple of decades.
I have community pride and love my community and the city of Wichita. I for one would like to see Wichita for its potential as a world class city. Pessimistic and grouchy people serve no good purpose in our city. They seek to drag it down because they have some beef about something.
I’m not saying that it shouldn’t have critisim, it should, but realize that this is a long term investment to our community.
Joe Williams: How come you avoid the real question about the proposed 1/4 billion dollar arena? Are you and the pro-arena boys afraid to answer or don’t you know. WHAT IS IT FOR? HOW IS IT GOING BENEFIT THE TAXPAYERS WHO WILL BE PAYING FOR IT? HOW DO THE ARCHITECTS KNOW WHAT TO DESIGN? SHOULD IT BE BOX SHAPED, EGG SHAPED OR A SPHERE?
This would have been a great opportunity for the people of Sedgwick County to discuss what they want in their county. Instead about 200 pro-arena people are pushing this project by calling me and others who oppose it names and slurs about being negative.
This whole deal puts the lie to the Visioneering effort for Wichita. They approved the arena over the objections of most of the attendees. Now they are trying to justify their efforts by talking about other subjects they can come up with.
By the way, Joe Williams and Steve, how are you tied into the pro-arena effort?
In response to the commisioners traveling and spending “precious” taxpayer money. It is budgeted in the total arena budget.
JWinkAnswer this guestion, What is the purpose of the Kansas Coliseum, Century II, or even Koch Arena? The purpose in my opinion is to bring enjoyment and culture to the citizens of Wichita and Sedgwick County. The Kansas Coliseum fails at this purpose. The place is not designed well. The concourses are to thin, the restrooms smell, and the concession stands are near the entrances. Even with little improvement the Coliseum would still be at least 30 years old. Why does Des Moines get an arena downtown and Wichita with more people does not need one? This just baffles me.
Jwink. I understand that there should have been more discussion before the vote, and preposed arena design would have been nice. It all actuality, there was a design, planned study, and many other economic impact studies done years eariler before what we now know as the downtown arena even before this went to the public for dicussion and vote.
It was called the Dynaplex, and as I remember, the studies were all funded by private sources. They were suppose to put it up for a bond vote, but they took it off the ballot because it failed to get STAR bond certified by the State. Most likely because we were not N.E. Kansas, which used the Star Bonds for hotels and shopping malls in KC and now the request for Star Bonds I believe have already expired.
So several years later they prepose a downtown arena funded by a temporary sales tax. And time was an issue. Wichita needed to get this thing rolling as quick as it can or it could have been delayed for a long time. That is why they decided on the front load vote for the arena and the details and design later. It wasn’t perfect or the perfered method for the public in my opinion, but I know they needed to get it going.
So I’m surprised they are working this swiftly at it. Usually government is a snails pace on projects. For example, the Kellogg Expansion was voted on and funded in 1983 and it’s STILL not done. :P
There is going to be an awesome project in the works coming soon that will most likely be funded by donations and not tax dollars and we will see if this project can be done with donations only. It will be a real test to see where people stand.
Joe Williams: The only “awesome project” that would make sense would be to accept donations for a giant white elephant statue to be placed at the front door of the arena. There would be lots of donations.
Please stop the spin and tell me WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THE DOWNTOWN ARENA is. Why won’t anyone say? Is the purpose unknown? Is it so piddling that its embarrassing to say we are spending a 1/4 billion dollars on it?
Keep trying.
“There is going to be an awesome project in the works coming soon that will most likely be funded by donations and not tax dollars and we will see if this project can be done with donations only. It will be a real test to see where people stand.”
Care to give us a clue as to what this so-called awesome project is? You have referred to it before and I strongly suspect it is as ephemeral as the Iraqi WMDs.
JWink,I think I wrote what the purpose was in my previous post. Why don’t you answer this guestion. Why does Des Moines get an arena downtown and Wichita with more people does not need one? No one that voted no on the arena could answer that one.
JWink,If you don’t like my opinion on what the arena’s purpose is. Here is what the county says is the purpose”The Sedgwick County Arena will be a worldclassentertainment venue located in downtownWichita. The Arena will be located near OldTown (site to be determined), to provide acomprehensive entertainment package forresidents and visitors to our community. TheSedgwick County Arena will be home to theindoor sporting events, concerts, family showsand other entertainment.” I can’t find a better purpose than that. If you want to look it up here is the website: http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/index.cfm. It is under the about the Sedgwick County Arena section.
“Why does Des Moines get an arena downtown and Wichita with more people does not need one?”
If that’s supposed to be a logical argument in favor of a downtown arena, it falls flat on its face, to put it mildly.
Des Moines – don’t they have a University involved in their project? Doesn’t that give their Arena a baseline of useage? Why did the “powers” behind the Wichita arena SPECIFICALLY rule out any University involvement?
Can you give any examples of a successful arena project in a similar-sized city without a University? NO.
Incorrect, Ben. Drake will only play a game or two per year at Wells Fargo Arena.
Why is “Why does Des Moines get an arena downtown and Wichita with more people does not need one?” an arguement that isn’t logical. A city that is smaller than Wichita got a new arena and we are still complaining about the one that is being built.No person that is not in favor of the arena can answer that guestion for me.
I guess I was thinking about Omaha where they have an arena in operation. And N Little Rock. I think this one has just opened; we shall see how successful it becomes.
I HOPE the no-name Wichita arena is successful. However, I remain unconvinced. I think dealing WSU out was a BIG mistake.
“Why is “Why does Des Moines get an arena downtown and Wichita with more people does not need one?” an arguement that isn’t logical.”
Because it’s equivalent to arguing that KC should have a better zoo than Wichita. One has nothing to do with the other.
For the final time WSU decided to not be in the downtown arena. The county did not deal them out. Why would WSU want to play in the downtown arena when they have Koch?
JWink,The purpose of the arena should be obvious; it is to provide contracts for builders first, and when it dies of neglect, to provide contracts for demolition companies!
More bread and circuses for the sheeple.
V.L.R.B!!
Keith – the same people involved with the Arena were involved with WSU’s decisions about Koch.
Wow, the same questions keep getting the same answers and nobody listens. Ben, please pay attention. I’ve lost track of how many times you’ve asked why WSU was “dealt out” of the downtown arena. Keith and I have answered it just as many times. THEY WERE NOT “DEALT OUT.” THEY CHOSE NOT TO PARTICIPATE. When the dynaplex was DOA, they decided to renovate Koch. With a practically brand new facility, it makes no sense for them to move to the downtown arena.
Another question that keeps getting answered and no one bothers to listen: “Can you give any examples of a successful arena project in a similar-sized city without a University?” For the umpteenth time, the answer is YES. Both Des Moines and Oklahoma City have arenas with no university tenants.
Please, folks, if you are going to post on this blog, please pay attention to what other people have to say. I’m getting tired of answering the same questions over and over and over. Thanks.
“No one, I repeat no one, has come up with a real use for the arena that makes sense.”–JWink
Winky, that’s because you disregard what we keep saying. Joe has just graciously outlined many uses for the arena and even posted a link to the Sedgwick County website. There are many reasons for a new arena and one downtown, but in my viewpoint, the primary reason for the arena is to stimulate redevelopment downtown. And it’s already working–the Minnesota guys have admitted without the downtown arena project they would not have been as interested in all the properties they are renovating. Look at the success Oklahoma City and Little Rock have enjoyed with their arenas being the linchpin in redevelopment efforts.
Your apparent love affair with the Coliseum is rooted in the fact you don’t want government to spend even a damn penny to make this city a better place to live. I attend quite a few events at the Coliseum being a Thunder season ticket holder, and I’ve been to several other arenas including the Ford Center and the Pepsi Center. The god’s honest truth is the Coliseum is a bare-bones, rundown rathole with a barn-like atmosphere. It has stimulated virtually no development around it–not because arenas can’t, but because it was built in the wrong location to begin with. If the Coliseum had been built downtown, I would probably be in favor of just renovating it and making it a first-class facility. But considering the Coliseum’s location, it would be irresponsible for us to invest more money in something that should have never been built.
Winky, you ask how Joe and I are tied into the pro-arena effort? What difference does it make? You were intimately tied to the anti-arena effort, passing out your “top 10 reasons” brochures before the county meetings and helping Peterjohn organize footsoldiers. I won’t hide anything, I was a volunteer for the Vote Yea campaign, and I gladly did it out of civic pride, doing what little I could do to make this city a better place to live and do business. Being a young person myself, it also scares the **** out of me seeing other young people leave Wichita in droves. They leave NOT BECAUSE OF TAXES BUT BECAUSE THERE ARE FEW PROFESSIONAL OPPORTUNITIES. If you want to work in a factory for the rest of your life, Wichita is the place to be. Some of us want something different, but Wichita has a notoriously hard time getting professionals to come to town partly due to a lack of first-class entertainment options and facilities. I would love to see NCAA regionals come to town, top concert acts, maybe even professional basketball someday–none of that will happen with the Coliseum. Now, we at least stand a chance.
“Keith – the same people involved with the Arena were involved with WSU’s decisions about Koch.”
Incorrect. WSU’s decisions about Koch were internal. The Greater Wichita Area Sports Commission, Sedgwick County, and the Vote Yea campaign did not decide to renovate Koch. Likewise, WSU had no input on the current downtown arena plan.
“The purpose of the arena should be obvious; it is to provide contracts for builders first, and when it dies of neglect, to provide contracts for demolition companies!”
Cute, but not a statement based on fact. I’m assuming you want to base success on attendance, and attendance projections for the downtown arena were based on attendance figures at the Coliseum. Unless you would like to claim the Coliseum is a “failure” based on attendance, the downtown arena will not “die.” Again, you’re missing the point. The idea is to move current attendance at the Coliseum to a location downtown to spur development. The arena’s success will be determined on this development, not turnstile count.
Steve – the jury is still out on the success of DesMoines new facility. As for Ok City they are a much larger city. Both DesMoines and Ok City have successful professional sports franchises – I hope our moribund teams can become successful. Obviously, only time will tell.
My prediction stands. We shall see.
Steve,Remember the Wings? All the other great events the Colisseum was going to bring to Wichita? All the money and effort spent on “revitalizing downtown?” Exploration Place? Wichita’s capacity for being sold on throwing good money after bad has no limits! And now this arena is going to solve all our problems?I’m pretty tired of paying for all these pie-in-the-sky projects that fail, and I can’t imagine that this one has any more chance of success than the last dozen or so, with all those seats to fill, and no parking! Better to simply admit that cities grow on the outside and turn the middle back to farmland or into a park.
“Steve – the jury is still out on the success of DesMoines new facility. As for Ok City they are a much larger city. Both DesMoines and Ok City have successful professional sports franchises – I hope our moribund teams can become successful.”
Ben, Ben, Ben. I’ll tell you what. You’re right about Des Moines, it’s only about a year old, right? Oklahoma City being “much larger” does not, in my viewpoint, mean a whole lot. Your argument is that arenas without university teams are doomed to failure. Why? Can you name current downtown arenas that have “failed” because of a lack of university teams?
Anyway, sure, OKC has a million people, we have 600,000. OKC’s not “much larger”–it’s not Denver or Dallas–but I’ll play along with you. How does this make up for a lack of university teams? Professional sports, right? Wait, they have a CHL team, just like WE do. Their team is successful and our’s is “moribound,” right? Wait, the Thunder’s season attendance is up 25% this year over last, the Blazers are down. The Thunder’s average attendance per game is fourth out of 15 teams in the CHL. OKC has arena football, and the Stealth folded, right? Wait, the Stealth was actually a very financially healthy franchise with increasing attendance, but its owner went bankrupt for unrelated reasons and new ownership could not be found in time for the next season. OKC has the Hornets, right? Temporarily, until they move back to New Orleans.
Umm, sorry Ben, looks like our teams aren’t so moribound after all. And it looks like OKC’s size does not really make that much of a difference. Like the rest of the anti-arena folks, you have made up your mind and THEN look for arguments to support your position. That’s why none of them really hold any water (no pun intended on Winky’s rainwater runoff joke). I’m sure even you will admit most people in favor of the arena were against it at first–because they were open-minded, examined the facts, and recognized that it was a good investment.
You predict the arena will fail, but cannot even point to any arena that has. Your “just wait and you’ll see” argument will convince no one.
Jed, do your homework, man.
The Coliseum was built in freakin’ Park City!! Well, at that time, it wasn’t even in Park City, it was in the middle of nowhere. The Coliseum was not built on promises of bringing sports teams or whatever. It was built because Century II could not handle agricultural shows.
The arena was NEVER advertised as the single thing that would solve all our problems. This was a myth invented by those who had a knee-jerk reaction to the proposal, those who make up their mind before they examine the facts. Rather, the arena is a vital PIECE OF THE PUZZLE to continue downtown revitilization efforts. Imagine a football team without a quarterback–that’s downtown revitilization without an arena.
No parking? You must be in favor of a parking garage–which would cram thousands of cars into one small area, and only allow for a few exits. People who are in favor of a parking garage are for the very thing that will cause untold gridlock. Tell you what, I will gladly park five blocks from the arena and walk–walking is good for you, you should try it sometime.
Cities grow on the outside and turn the inside back into farmland? Honestly, Jed, do you live in a cave? There is a revolution of urban life sweeping the country. Cities large and small all over are revitilizing their downtowns into vibrant office, entertainment and residential areas. Denver, Kansas City, Omaha, OKC, Little Rock, Des Moines, St. Louis, just to name some closeby towns, are plugging millions into downtown redevelopment and seeing quite a bit of success. In a way, society seems to be rebelling against the 1950s “Leave it to Beaver” suburban lifestyle. Downtowns are hip and trendy again.
Steve – twice as large is significant. OKC at over a million, Sedgwick County at 453,000.
Like I say; we shall see. Thus far, the successful arenas in smaller cities have had the benefit of a University as a baseline. I wish this experiment well but …
“Downtowns are hip and trendy again.”
A fad in other words.
Steve,If this arena is such a sure-fire enterprise, why not let the developers finance it themselves, and reap all those prospective profits?I can’t afford the pricey tickets to anything in that place, even if I wanted to, yet I’m expected to help build it for those who can? Screw that!”Hip” and “trendy” are words that mean “way overpriced!”
Sorry Steve and Joe Williams, I think you are over zealous cheerleaders for the downtown arena and you are past listening to common sense facts. BUT THE FACT IS THE DOWNTOWN ARENA DOESN’T MAKE ECONOMIC SENSE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
When I spoke of the lower/medium income people paying through the nose with a regressive sales taxes, I wasn’t speaking of the homeless. I was thinking of the teachers, policemen, firemen and other middle income people who work hard for our city — they are the ones getting shafted. I am told new college graduates with masters degrees in larger cities are now receiving $130,000/year.
In regard to proposed arena use, I don’t buy waving your hands in the air and saying, “Oh, its for some unnamed sports events, and its for a comeback location for Brittany Spears, and maybe some other events that might come down the pike.”
A quarter billion dollars is too much to waste on maybes and wannabe’s. With a quarter billion dollars downtown Wichita could be torn down and completely rebuilt without an arena. The outlying suburbs of Derby, Haysville, Goddard, Andale, Cheney, Bel Aire, Valley Center and, yes, even Park City could be given a strong hand by the County Government to update their infrastructure. Yes they do pay taxes to.
Your attitude of “build it and they will come” is not something to base an expenditure of a 1/4 billion dollars. Your comment is rediculous that somehow Wichita will be “left behind if it doesn’t get an arena.” Like a baby that cries if it doesn’t get its rattle.
On this subject, there will be many people and companies that move out of Wichita or don’t come here in the first place because of the threat of continuously paying taxes for arena losses, utilities, maintenance for many years.
Your theory that Wichita must keep up with the Joneses, meaning other area cities of similar populations doesn’t make sense. As far as I know Wichita is not competing with Little Rock or Des Moines on anything.
In regard to the Des Moines arena, I was told by fairly good authority that income from a new casino, if any, will help pay for it. I don’t know — I don’t go to Iowa.
Your comment that $200 million is a good investment for 30 or 40 years fails to consider the likely losses even when financed by the taxpayers.
The greatest economic engine in the midwest, Johnson County, Kansas, doesn’t have an arena and wouldn’t want one even if proposed to be built by private investors. Of course, there is also no tax financed arena in the Country Club Plaza/Westport area.
You said that the Minnesota “investors” came to Wichita to capitalize on the 1/4 billion dollars in tax money to be spread around downtown. Smart move on their part, not smart on the taxpayers part.
So, once again my questions are:
1) What is the specific use for the arena?
2) Who are the citizens who serve on the arena oversight committee?
3) How much money has been spent on the arena so far for promotion, politics, cocktail parties/dinners, travel expenses, salaries, etc.
4) For starters on the above, I spent $300 out of my billfold for flyers, bumper stickers, etc to oppose the arena. The County government spent $300,000 of taxpayers money to defeat me and other arena opponents. Is this legal?
I’m tired of repeating myself on these facts over and over again so please answer my questions without spin this time.
Joe, Keith, Steve,Thanks for progressive views on the Arena and downtown Wichita.
The naysayers on here are just that. They want their property taxes to go to that barn up on N I-135. It’s sad and pathetic.
J’Wink,You must be ignoring Keith’s posts.
Oh, and by the way, “Is this legal”? What, the fact that you lost?
NoJoCo: I didn’t see Keith’s posts as representing the left wing big tax spender ideology. He seemed to be asking questions and providing helpful information in a reasoned debate without name calling and mud slinging.
Des Moines or OKC do not have pro-teams. Also. OKC the city itself is around 420,000 people. Their extended MSA is close to a Million and it is pretty stretch for it.
Wichita MSA is above 600,000 but it isn’t near the size(land wise) as that caculated by OKC’s MSA. Wichita’s MSA doesn’t include Cowley County or even Kingman County.
Wichita pulls in a lot of people over a large area, much more than that calculated by the MSA.
Although we probably fall a bit short of OKC, Tulsa, Omaha, we are comperable. In all actuallty, we are mid-size cities. All of us.
KC is large, but not as near as large as Dallas/Ft. Worth. KC’s MSA I believe is around 1.5 million. Dallas/Ft. Worth is close to 6 million. That is a HUGE difference.
Winky–
I will answer your questions (again) one by one. I’ll go on record, please don’t make me waste my time again.
1) The arena’s primary purpose is to spur downtown redevelopment. Secondary purposes include improving Wichita’s image, providing an improved atmosphere for cultural and sporting events, and attracting events we cannot currently host including NCAA regionals.
2) A list of the citizens who serve on the arena oversight committees may be found at the following links:
http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/fact_sheets/tax_oversight_committee.pdf
http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/fact_sheets/arena%20citizen%20design%20committee.pdf
Just copy and paste into the address bar on your browser. This is public information available to anyone on Sedgwick County’s downtown arena website: http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/index.cfm
3) I honestly do not know. I’m sure this information is available if you contact the Sedgwick County finance department. All money used for travel expenses, etc. associated with the project come out of the arena’s budget and not the county’s general fund.
4) All money spent by the Vote Yea campaign on advertising, etc., came from private donations. No money from Sedgwick County taxpayers was used by the Vote Yea campaign. So, yes, it was legal. Like you, I spent several hundred dollars out of my own pocket to get the arena passed. The campaign did not reimburse me for gas to deliver Vote Yea yard signs, travel to events and community meetings to hand out brochures and speak about the projects, or my own brochures which were similar to yours. Yes, sir, the campaign was legal.
There you go, Winky, honest and without spin. You are getting tired of asking the questions, I am getting tired of answering them. Please actually read my post this time.
“left wing big tax spender ideology”?????
Winky, I’m a registered Republican!!! I completely disagree with government sponsored social welfare!!! I don’t like paying taxes anymore than the other guy!!
But we can ONLY rely on private business to invest in projects that will turn a profit.
The arena is not a profit center. IT WON’T MAKE MONEY. Just like roads and parks, this has to be done by government.
This is not a left-wing vs right-wing issue. This is an issue over who is best suited to do the project, and private industry is not.
“The greatest economic engine in the midwest, Johnson County, Kansas, doesn’t have an arena and wouldn’t want one”
That’s because Kansas City, Missouri, is building a taxpayer financed arena in downtown Kansas City. Please tell the whole story, Winky. The spin on this blog is coming from you.
“You said that the Minnesota “investors” came to Wichita to capitalize on the 1/4 billion dollars in tax money to be spread around downtown. Smart move on their part, not smart on the taxpayers part.”
Winky, for every dollar government has invested in downtown Wichita, private industry has invested $10. Hell yes it’s a smart move for the taxpayers to spur downtown redevelopment. If this trend continues, after spending $200 million downtown on the arena, private investors will spend $2 billion.
You and I both agree private investment is essential. What we disagree on is how to attract investment. You seem to believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that investors will just show up at our doors and beg to spend millions redeveloping our downtown. My viewpoint is that investors sometimes need some motivation. Sometimes in life, when the going gets tough, you need to create your own opportunities–that’s what the city is trying to do.
“When I spoke of the lower/medium income people paying through the nose with a regressive sales taxes, I wasn’t speaking of the homeless. I was thinking of the teachers, policemen, firemen and other middle income people who work hard for our city — they are the ones getting shafted.”
Funny how anti-arena people like to label the arena as a playground for the “rich.” Ever been to a Thunder game? Ever been to a concert? The same teachers, policemen and firemen who pay sales taxes are the same ones who go to Thunder games and concerts. Thunder games aren’t attended by millionaires, they’re attended by the middle class. It’s that way now and it will be that way at the new arena. What will be different is that the folks who do make tons of cash will finally be able to shell it out for luxury boxes. What they spend for these suites will help to operate the arena and continue to make it a fine facility for the rest of us as well.
Steve,When you’ve got those investors lined up to the tune of 18.7 billion (with a B), then build your arena. Until then, it’s just pie-in-the-sky!I’m not a venture capitalist, with lots of money looking for a home, and I’ve been burned before, so don’t force me to invest in some cockamamie scheme to bail out a bunch of developers and stroke a bunch of egos!
Ps. I’ve never been to a Thunder game, and damn few concerts. My budget doesn’t allow it; and with this inflated sales tax, it doesn’t allow it even more!
You don’t make any sense, Jed. What’s this $18.7 billion you’re talking about?
What developers are being bailed out?
Hey, I’m not a venture capitalist either, and God only knows I don’t have the kind of money to invest in downtown property. But there are some people who do.
I don’t get these implications that business and rich people are our enemies. Just because someone has more money than you does not make them better than you. If some rich people think they are better than the rest of us then that is THEIR problem. I’m not going to reinforce their idea by getting on some kind of pity pot, thinking “woe is me” because I don’t have millions to invest, and fight every deal they try to make. So what if the Minnesota guys are making money?? Has anyone really realized that the buildings they are fixing up are going to contribute much more in property taxes than they would sitting empty???? These developers are risking millions in their own money and indirectly keeping the rest of our property taxes from going up even more.
Anti-arena folks complain that the arena won’t make money, and in the next breath criticize developers for their profit motive.They complain that developers are the only ones that will get rich off this “scheme,” and in the next breath say the arena won’t attract development.They complain that no one will attend events there, and in the next breath say there will be untold traffic and parking problems!!They complain that no events will come here, and in the next breath say ticket prices for those events will be outrageous!!!They complain the sales tax will not end in 30 months and won’t raise the $184 million, and in the next breath say when it does end, it will raise too much!!!!!!!
Get your stories straight people. And for God’s sakes, don’t feel bad that you don’t have a gazillion dollars. Let the ones who do build condos, restaurants and bars around our new arena that the rest of us can enjoy.
Steve,I don’t have a gazillion, and don’t need it. I’m just tired of rich people getting richer by nickel and diming me to death without my permission, and with no foreseeable benefit to anybody but themselves!Big money’s advertising made you a bunch of suckers, conned you out of your votes and sold you a bill of goods for a totally unrealistic arena project that will never be self supporting, with promises of a brighter sky tomorrow if we just pay in advance! Just where are all these people who will invest in Wichita, if we only have an arena? Out it the ether someplace? Why do you think they aren’t risking their own money on an arena? If the answer isn’t obvious, go invest in a resort about 500 miles east of Miami!
Jed. I guess you forgot the Minneosta investors who purchase quite a few run down and empty buildings downtown and are renovating them and people are moving in to them.
One of the main factors that got them to invest is the downtown arena. They saw that Wichita was going somwhere with a vibrant downtown, now they are capitalizing it.
Okay, so Jed says the advertising for the arena came from “big money.” Winky says the advertising for the arena came from Sedgwick County. Does everyone see what I’m talking about? Anti-arena folks can’t get their stories straight.
As I have said before, private investors will not build an arena because arenas don’t make money. That is not their purpose. NOT EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD HAS TO MAKE MONEY, FOLKS. MONEY IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN LIFE!!! The world does not revolve around our wallets!!!
There is an INDIRECT benefit to you and I through more spending in the economy (the developments around the arena) and increased property tax collections from these developments.
It’s difficult to see because it is indirect but that does not make it any less real. Air is difficult to see but it is there.
In a town practically founded on entrepreneurialism, we sure have a lot of people here who are anti-business. Kind of makes you wonder why Safelite, Pizza Hut, Rent a Center and Brite left town, taking their high paying jobs with them…
Oh, I almost forgot Jed, in addition to the Minnesota developers Joe is talking about, John Q. Hammons is also a developer that has announced a hotel project downtown SOLELY because of the arena.
So, to answer your question, the people who will invest in Wichita, “if only we have an arena,” are coming out of the woodwork and construction is still two years away.
Looks like you sold yourself a “bill of goods” with your skepticism. Who should be investing in that resort now?
“FOLKS. MONEY IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN LIFE!!! The world does not revolve around our wallets!!!”
Speaking strictly for yourself, of course.
Winky, looks like one of my links on answer to question 2 did not properly paste to my post. This is the correct link:
http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/fact_sheets/tax_oversight_committee.pdf
Oooops!! Sorry for the inconvenience!
Advertising money came from two primary sources: taxpayers and construction/design companies. Taxpayer money was channeled through the Chamber and WDDC which both receive tax dollars. The construction/design companies are the ones who will get the contracts.
Okay, Todd, good one :-)
Ben, the design and construction contractors on the arena go through a public bid process. Just because Key Construction contributed money to the campaign does not mean they will build the arena. They’ll have to bid on it like everyone else.
Ben, this is how political campaigning works. Sure, Key gave money in the hope it would have a chance to build the arena, I can’t argue with that. But there should be no implication that they WILL be the ones who build it.
Besides, a hell of a lot of other interests funded the arena campaign. Explain why the car dealers gave money–this flies in the face of common sense since the sales tax would hit them pretty hard. Boeing?
The primary source of funding for the Chamber is member dues. The primary source of funding for the WDDC is the municipal service district. Any taxpayer funds given to these organizations are kept separate from the private sources. Again, folks, taxpayer money was not “channeled” to the Vote Yea campaign. There is no conspiracy, you are not being victimized by the man. (sigh).
(sigh) – money is a fungible. Sure, you can segregate the accounts but you can still use one to displace and free up other dollars.
I don’t audit the Chamber or WDDC, but accounting for non-profits is quite different from normal accounting. Special tax money distributed to either of these entities is most likely restricted and cannot to used to “free up” other dollars.
The Vote Yea campaign was not successful because the Chamber and WDDC gave it a buck or two anyway. It was successful because of the 800 volunteers who walked house by house throughout Wichita and showed the voters the facts. The Dynaplex relied solely on an advertising campaign and failed miserably.