KAKE, Channel 10, interviewed Fred Phelps and filmed him giving a sermon, which it aired Thursday night. It was even creepier than you might expect.
The Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka looked tiny. There were about 60 members there when KAKE filmed, half of them children. All the women and girls had their heads covered, many with old-fashioned bonnets. In an interview, Phelps said that the United States needs to criminalize sodomy. “And you have to attach the penalty of death to it,” he told KAKE.
Phelps even went after the Rev. Terry Fox, senior pastor at Immanuel Baptist Church in Wichita. “That jackass down there, Fox in Wichita, his church is just chock-full of divorced and remarried people,” said Phelps. “He has no moral authority to preach about homosexuals.”
What was unclear about Phelps — actually one of many things — was that he said he believes that God has predestined only a small number of people to go to heaven, and everyone else is going to hell. But if we’re already predestined, and nothing can change that, what is the point of the protests?
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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160 Comments
Phillip,You seem to be assuming that rational thought guides the behavior of Rev. Phelps. It clearly does not.
Any rattlesnake handling?
Standard Calvinist logic…500 years too late.
Actually, Fred raises an interesting point. Since in some circles divorce/remarriage is an abomination. Therefore, we must have a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting it. While we are at it we should recognize that cheeseburgers are al an abomination in some peoples’ view. Therefore we neen ANOTHER Constitutional Amendment prohibiting cheeseburgers. We can add pork, shellfish, alcohol, and other things to the list. Then there is the problem of women during their period when they are “unclean”.
This is the sort of problem that can arise when we allow religious zealots to make law. The rest of us are forced to hew to their views of God’s will. This is the reason we need separation of Church and State.
Fred Phelps is and should be free to preach whatever he wants to to his flock. However, neither he nor any others like him should be allowed to force their views on the rest of us.
Once again ‘ole Fred is getting the publicity he craves. People love to be shocked and he’s as outrageuos as they come, that’s why we all finding him so facinating to watch. As long as he has a venue for his ridiculous beliefs, he’ll have an audience.
I’m guessing Fred is a narcisstic personality disorder with possible ongoing brain atrophy. I’m afraid of him being the cause of potential violence rather than any being perpetrated against him. He has a history of spousal and child abuse, according to his history on the Web. So he’s a Jim Jones or David Koresh in waiting. When he’s ready to die or confronted by the government because of a crime, he’ll probably lead his flock to suicide. The SRS should investigate to make sure the children shown in KAKE’s video are safe.
I like the idea of having him officially designated as the Kansas State Asshole, or at least have the legislature revoke his Kansas Resident status, so we can deny that he represents Kansas in any way!
Wonder if Topeka could invoke “Eminent Domain”. The location of Phelps’ building looked like a great place for a public park or a community toilet!
Sam,Sorry, it would require too much toxic waste clean-up to become a community toilet!
I understand that Phelps is over the top but the so is reaction to him of some of you leftists. I gather it really offends some of you to hear someone preaching a strict code of morality? Remember that nowhere in the bible are the words “tolerance” or “compromise” found!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Ian..Neither are the words “God hates fags”
It is not about “hate”, it is about right and wrong!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Ian,Yes, it’s about right and wrong, and you and Phelps are the epitomy of wrong!
Ian…The problem is you are extracting only the part of God’s character dealing with His righteous judgement, and you are totally ignoring another part of His character where he shows mercy and forgiveness.If you do that, we are all going to hell because we have all sinned.
Predestination is a complicated subject to discuss.
I believe we are all predestined as well.
I don’t know what Phelps is teaching, but I know what I believe about predestination.
It is not that we hvae no choice or can’t change anything.
It is that God is all knowing and he already knows the outcome of our decisions.
This doesn’t change our ability to make decisions or choose whether or not to accept Christ as our savior, just the God knows what our choice will be.
In the sense that God knows, he has predestined us.
Romans 8 kind of goes over some of it.
Phelps is finally correct about something! That Fox guy down in Wichita is a “Jackass”! Fox is a typical hate filled Baptist hypocrite – eeeeeeeeee ahhhhhnh!
Eeeeeeeeeeee Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhnh!
Rev Cain
785-296-3128 Dept of Corrections is Margie Phelps office Number i recommend everyone who can, call her. she is a public servant our taxdollars pay her salary were at least entilted to a chat. Fred Jr also works for the Dept of Corrections 785-296-4508 is his number we should give him a ring too
That bastard Phelps came down and picketed some of our churches and public shcools here in Tampa a few weeks ago.
He was one of the things I was hoping to leave behind when I left Kansas, but he just won’t leave me alone.
I don’t think KAKE should have granted him an interview. The more he’s left alone, the faster he’ll drift into obscurity. Giving him air time just fuels his loonie views.
Predestination is logically ridiculous…as are omnipotence, omniscience, and all of the other alleged “attributes” of the classical Protestant Godhead.
Of course you would dismiss the theology behing Christianity if/when you don’t even believe in Jesus Christ as God.
I figure you don’t, right Brian?
I can believe in Jesus Christ AND a LOGICAL philosophy attached to to Christianity. If you’re wedded to 500 year old dogma that has been repeated proved logically inconsistent and justy plain silly, well, that’s your hangup, Nathan.
Spirituality should involve a deeper and more meaningful understanding of things as they are, not the mindless adherence to orthodoxies developed 1500 years ago by men living in a world that has long passed away.
So…
Before I can continue in a discussion with you I kind of need to know what you accept.
Do you accept the validity of the Bible and the divinity of Christ?
Nathan,
You are dealing with a bunch of degenerate hippy new-agers who think that Jesus would forgive abortion, drug use, homsexuality and all other manner of evil!
Viva la Raza Blanco!!
Nathan,
Try fitting these into your narrow minded world view.
If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then He knows all and wrote the book explaining it. Further, He canbnot be wrong, since this would violate His nature. Therefore, God has no free will to act, since to “change his mind” violates the tenet that He knows all and wrote the book. If He were to respond to a prayer or the like, then it was pre-ordained that He would, since, if it weren’t, that would mean God didn’t know everything in the book of life he supposedly authored.
You might also like to try your hand at this one. If, by definition, certain things ARE, then God cannot change these (since that’s what a definition is all about). Therefore, it appears that the “definitions” have more authority than God. Examples? A number like pi has an infinite number of digits appearing in no particular sequence. God cannot “know” the last digit of pi by definition since it is infinite in extent and the digits follow no defined order. Or, I define a circle as the locus of points in the Euclidean plane equidistant from a central point called the “center”. This is a definition, and hence, not subject to God’s omnipotent power to change it. Hence, God has no “power” over the definition, and is therefore not omnipotent from the classical Calvinist view. Ditto the pi example.
Do you even believe in God?
Accept the validity of the Bible?
Accept the divinity of Christ?
Not in the sense that you espouse, certainly.
Who was Jesus, what was the extent of his divinity?
Do you hold true anypart of the Bible, which parts?
Do you even believe in the “Christian” God or any God at all?
ROTFLMOSAO!!!
Jesus was not divine in any sense that you believe. That would require that the REASON for his life and death be true and acceptable.
I do not accept that God became so angy at our transgression of disobedience (which is what the original sin was, after all), that he dictated that we would have to murder, or at least be complicit in a suicide, to be forgiven. So, God had us trade disobedience for murder in the classical Pauline view.
It’s fine and dandy to say that God so loved the world that he gave his only son as a sacrifice..except when you realize that the sacrificers were US!! The Romans who did the dee were surrogates for all mankind.
This is absolute hogwash, and the reason that its’ time to rethink and reformulate this silly doctrine.
Jesus’ death was NOT what saved us, it was the example He set for us in His life.
Well,
It makes more sense now.
Of course you don’t believe aspects of Christianity.
Why would you when you reject the very foundation of it.
So what do you believe about Christ and where do you get your information on him from?
Perhaps, Nathan, because some of us are not automatons. You have any original thoughts on the subject, or should I get my copies of the Bible and Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian religion?
Have you read anything pertaining to recent Biblical archaeology, history, literary analysis or the like, or are you stranded in the 16th century?
Brian,
I am just trying to figure out what it is you do believe while you are being extremely vague.
Calling me names and trying to insult me doesn’t add to the discussion or really bother me that much.
Actually, I find it to be a compliment when people like you have to resort to mere name calliing and petty labeling.
Nathan,
The leftists wish to mold Christian doctrine to suit their own whims and to accomodate every degenerate social fad. These people wish to subvert Christian teachings in the same way they have subverted the constitution.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Not being christian, I have no desire to remold christian doctrine. I just don’t want it used to justify all the nasty things you do to everyone else! And not being christian, I don’t want to be made to pretend I am.
Well Brian, you know we automatons believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. Insomuch as any writings of man are only based on human knowledge and experience, they are ALL fallable and not worthy of comparison to the one who has infinite knowledge.
Yes.. I enjoy very much studying current archaeology, and to this day, I have seen nothing that does not support the historical Biblical accounts.
Yes, Jesus is a Great example to follow.. but He is also the Son of God and the ONLY way to a better life that will last an eternity. It’s pretty simple really, you just accept who he is, repent of your disobedience, and He will reveal himslf to you in mighty and amazing ways. Then you will be given Wisdom.
Nathan,
I’m not calling you names any more than you are calling me them. I’m stating what appears to me to be fairly obvious…you have not given much thought to what you claim to believe since you appear to question nothing which you have been culturally indoctrinated to. Neither have you offered or attempted to offer any counters to the logical fallacies I pointed out above.
If you’re comfortable living with the cognitive dissonance, that’s fine, but some of us prefer not to have it hanging around.
I’m not so sure why anyone’s particular spiritual beliefs really matter in the context of this post.
We all agree that Fred Phelps is a complete loonie, right?
Outside of that, everyone should be able to have any opinions or faith, and participate in any toe-jam removal rituals, or virgin sacrifices that helps them to better live their lives.
“The leftists wish to mold Christian doctrine to suit their own whims and to accomodate every degenerate social fad.”
You mean the way the Popes and Kings did a couple of thousand years ago?
I never took you for the superstitious type.
Cookie,Had to give up sacrificing virgins- got too hard to find one!
I know Jed. But maybe you’re just hangin’ out in the wrong places. South Broadway is not the place to find a marriage-minded chaste young lady.
Even with all that abstinence education, virgins are hard to come by.
It’s just shame that a lot of our leaders want to keep throwing money at those kinds of failed programs, rather than teaching kids about birth control and the real facts of life, and leaving morality up to parents and churches.
Nathan,
You are clearly outmatched by Brian. Give it up before you make yourself look even more ridiculous. Just trying to help a brother out.
Thank you for your insight Truth.
Have you ever thought of a career in cheerleading?
I still don’t know what Brian believes because he won’t say.
Not mush of a discussion when it is only one sided.
Sam,
I don’t think Jesus gives a flying fig if you believe any Christian doctrine…period. What he was obviously concerned with was how men treated their fellow men, non-sentient beings like animals, and the world in general.
To make a long story short, Jesus is the WORD of God..and, the WORD is, summing up…”LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF AND LOVE THE DIVINE ESSENCE”. This statement is as true for Hindus, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Jews, Wiccans, and atheists as it is for Christians. One doesn’t have to know or even worship Jesus to have founf the WORD.
That’s the difference beyween those who are spiritual and those who are dogmatic. I find the WORD in the hearts, minds, and actions of everyone of good spirit, whether they know the name Jesus or not.
For the dogmatic, orthodox, believer, the conversation ends with: “Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God or not? If not, die heaten scum !”
I have yet to see anyone say that Brian.
I am asking you a simple question to form a base for this discussion.
Where do you get your qoutes on what Jesus says and what he did from?
Do you believe what the Bible says, if only certain books, which ones?
Becuase I see you qouting what appears to be scripture, so I am wondering if it is fair game in this discussion.
There are several ways to go about this.
You seem focused on logic. That is fine. I can discuss this with logic all day long.
However, no matter what, it still comes down to faith. Either you believe there is a God or you don’t.
Becuase there is not much point in arguing about the theology with you when you don’t even believe a God exists.
Just to clear things up:
I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is the son of God, I also believe that the Bible is true.
Has nothing to do with dogma or me being an autobot or whatever you want to call me.
I have studied the Bible, different religions, history, science, etc…
If all you can do to win this argument is try to cheapen my opinion by claiming I am some automaton there is not much point in my furthering this discussion in any serious manner.
It sounds to me like Reverend Phelps has some latent homosexual leanings himself. With so much else in the Bible, why is he so fascinated by one single subject? I’m sure he’s confused by his feelings, and simply has found an outlet for his tendencies. Seems like a serious case of self-loathing to me . . .
Nathan,
To answer your questions…formulated from much reading on religious history, archaeology, biblical interpretation, logic, philosophy. Might I suggest you start with John Crossan, Marcus Borg, Kant, Rousseau.
So, please do argue logic with me all day. Start with the logical inconsistencies about the assumptions of omnipotence, omniscience, free will, and its implications, as stated above.
Move on to the reason BEHIND the crucifixion. Do you believe that God was so displeased by putrid mankind’s infinite sins (kicked off by disobedience), that the only way He could be satisfied was by blood atonement? As I said, we had to muder Jesus to be forgiven for disobedience? Or perhaps you have some other justification.
If your belief limits your conception of the divine (remember, the unknowable, the ineffable, the infinite), and if it further limits you to believe that some are predestined for heaven and the rest for hell, then you’ve missed the boat.
Oh, by the way, WHICH Bible do you believe is the unerring word of God? Would it be the Vinegar Bible of the early 1700s which substituted the word vinegar for vineyard? How many other mistakes have there been that have not been caught? How about translations, or the fact that koine and ancient Hebrew had no punctuation? How would you read JESUSISNOWHERE…lacking punctuation, you can come to 2 radically different conclusions.
I agree with Damoon: He needs to be ignored to the extent that it’s possible. Publicity is his lifeblood.
Brian, a hardy WELCOME BACK!
I must have missed it.
Did you answer any of my questions?
I support the biblical basis on Reverend Phelps and the world would be a much better place to live if we all were conservatitives too. You liberals that feel we need to have a sweet wonderful world to live in don’t see reality! If we don’t stand together today the world will be overrun with liberals who won’t stand up for what is right! I’m a conservatitive christian and damn proud to march with a christian leader who is not afraid to make a difference in this evil wicked liberal world. The right is right and we all need to stand together to get rid of all the stupid evil liberals who squeel about wanting a sweet world to live in. They need to eat some sweet worms for eternity!
Signed
One proud Christain Conservatitive!
Nathan,You and I know that the an ounce of teaching from the Holy Spirit equals the universe compared to what Brian will learn in several lifetimes. Every time Brian opens his mouth he shows his ignorance.
NoJoCo,
The problem with you, Nathan, the Phelps’ clan, and the rest of your ilk is that you put orthodoxy ahead of orthopraxy. You’re more concerned that I and those around you think like yo and believe like you, no ifs ands or buts.
Thanks God for those who question me and my beliefs, as the old Muslim philosopher pointed out.
Thank you Rage, :)
I have been reading the blog. Your comments are always erudite and on the money.
I still have no idea what you believe Brian.
Share some of your enlightment upon us ignorant automatons!
Get out of the theoretical world for a while Brian and get into the real-world spiritual side that you have potential of having. People have a relationship with Jesus Christ today as they did in Biblical times. We are living the 29th chapter of Acts.
Oh and don’t lump me into the same mold as Phelps. That would be like me saying that you’re right there with Madalein Murray O’Hare (sp?). I’m more in-line with Dietrich Bonhoefer.
The subject was Phelps.
But as the rest of you have digressed, I will as well.
Brian? You have the best take on God and religion that I have seen yet. Now I am a known atheist. But if the mission of Christ was to “spread the word” you got my vote for doing it best. That is not an insult. It is a compliment. You at least giveme pause to consider that any of this God nonsense has any basis in reality. That comes from a mind un-cluttered by dogma.
Nathan………aww Nathan. What can I say? You are a NUT. That NOJOCO blow agrees with you confirms his/her status among nuts.
But even the nuts agree that Phelps is the ultimate nut.
I am with the Eagle editorial poster and the earlier poster here. Kansas must recognize and in doing so renounce Phelps.
I nominate Fred Phelps for recognized official Kansas State asshole.
Nathan’s vehemence leads me to think he’s not trying to convince others, he’s trying to convince himself.
Brian, thank you for your comments. Truly sensible and stated extremely well. But don’t bother Nathan with the translation thing. According to him, nothing has changed from the first writings on papyrus.
Brian,You choose to focus on the here and now. Yes, you have a fairly good understanding of what Jesus taught, but you forgot one thing.
John 14:6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
That is not dogmatic, that is just plain, simple truth. By the way, Jesus is the WORD, so without Him, you have not found the true Word.. just your interpretation. To find the WORD is to have a “relationship” with Christ.I definately try to live my life in the manner you described, and our ministries are loveing, not condemning… BUT…. I will not attempt to try and win some logical argument with you because that would require compromise. That is the one thing I cannot do is compromise my faith in Christ.
You said “For the dogmatic, orthodox, believer, the conversation ends with: ‘Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God or not? If not, die heaten scum !’”
For THIS believer, the conversation ends with “Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God or not? If not, then let me introduce you to my friend Jesus, and show you through my life how He can change yours and how you can depend on Him forever. He loves you and will receive you just as you are.”
Sam,
I dare venture you’re speculating too. Jersus also said something about destroying a temple and in 3 days rebuilding it..certainly not to be taken literally.
By coming to the Father through Jesus, what some of us believe is coming to the joy and placid contemplation of the divine through compassio n for others and wonder and awe for the world as it is. Beyond that, no one has any monopoly on truth. Ask a jew about the same prophetic passages that Christians see as foretelling the divinity of Jesus and they won’t see that at all. Both sides can argue this point of dogma or that, this piece of sophistry or that one. In the end, what we have in common is our humanity, and that’s far more important than bickering over whether Jesus’divinity was lost in his humanity or vice versa, whether works or fdaith are more important, and all the other trivial drivel that religionists worry about.
Brian…Jesus DID destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days. When Jesus died and was resurrected on the third day, the temple was destroyed and your body became “the temple of the living God”.Yes Brian, the prophesies are very clear to me, but not everyone comprehends things in the same way. That’s why we need faith. And that’s why believers need to focus on Jesus and the scripture you quoted. Otherwise we will just keep building more and more man-made denominations. IMHO, that is not what it’s all about.
If you want to know Fred Phelps and where he is comung from then follow the link below. It is an unathorized biography by one of his own sons that no longer agrees with his fathers beleifs. You also have to understand his followers are mostly his daughters, sons, grandchildren and great grandchildren.http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/michael_haggerty/expose3.htm
Brian, my prayer is that someday your eyes will be opened to the Truth. It is obvious that you have been exposed to the Truth and you refuse to accept it. You twist the scriptures to fit your own ideas.
To lump those of us who do have a relationship with the living Christ in with Fred Phelps is ludricrous. I don’t hate anyone. I would never picket anywhere with signs filled with hatred.
My faith in a risen savior is real. If you have a true faith in whatever it is you believe in (i.e., your humanity), then good luck with that.
Gertie,
If I twist the Scriptures, then I’m only another of the several thousand sects of Christianity that interpret things their own way. In fact my interpretation seems saner than most. So, I’d suggest you take Jesus’ advice and remove the log from your own eye before you point out the splinter in another’s.
The bible is the word, the message if you will, of God, but it is not God. Does one have to have ever opened and read a bible to know God?
Jesus is the Savior, not Christianity.
Brian,Ask a Jew? Sure! Of course one must identify that the New Testament books are a complete and accurate fulfillment of every single prophecy found in the Hebrew Bible (O.T.) that deals specifically with the Meshiah. Does salvation come about by doing good deeds as you claim? Well no. You see, good deeds could never atone for our sins moreover the concept of original sin, which is very Augustinian, but is plausible. For the athiests who rely on logic: just because one cannot prove the existence of God via physical means does not entail that the concept of God is illogical. Read Kantian metaphysics and the Summa Theologiae of St. Thomas Aquinas (specifically the 5 Ways of Proving the Existence of God) rationally of course. I promise it will be thought provoking for the athiests. And yes, I am a philosopher, all men who ask “why” are. I also have a little piece of paper from a college seminary that tells me so. :)
Brian,Ask a Jew? Sure! Of course one must identify that the New Testament books are a complete and accurate fulfillment of every single prophecy found in the Hebrew Bible (O.T.) that deals specifically with the Meshiah. Does salvation come about by doing good deeds as you claim? Well no. You see, good deeds could never atone for our sins moreover the concept of original sin, which is very Augustinian, but is plausible. For the athiests who rely on logic: just because one cannot prove the existence of God via physical means does not entail that the concept of God is illogical. Read Kantian metaphysics and the Summa Theologiae of St. Thomas Aquinas (specifically the 5 Ways of Proving the Existence of God) rationally of course. I promise it will be thought provoking for the athiests. And yes, I am a philosopher, all men who ask “why” are. I also have a little piece of paper from a college seminary that tells me so. :)
CruX,Yes, I use logic, but it is only one of the tools in my kit. I don’t deny the existence of the metaphysical, I just don’t know anything about it, and I never met anyone who did. A lot of people tried to convince me they did, but couldn’t produce an argument that held water. I’m no longer interested in metaphysical discussions, and content myself with the world around me, which is vast enough for many lifetimes of inquiry.
I am still waiting to see what it is Brian actually believes.
Jed,
For brevity’s sake, this is not an appropriate post for lengthy philosophical dissertations, perhaps the Eagle should make a Philosophy Corner? :)
Nathan,
What would you have me say?
I have said:
The blood atonement theory of redemption is bankrupt and silly.
The redemption idea and eternal life in a perfected human form corresponding to humanity before the fall is silly since it is beyond question that we evolved from lower, imperfect, mortal life forms. We were never perfect and immortal and we never will be.
A redeemer in this sense is therefore unnecessary since the redeemer’s purpose was to restore to us perfection and eternal life…which we never had, see above.
Therefore, if Jesus’ life is to have a meaning, which it does, it is not derived from this scapegoat/sacrifice/redemption nonsense. The meaning of Jesus’ life comes from the fact that he put compassion for everyone above ritual holiness.
The Good Samaritan is the case in point. The 2 who avoided the injured man were a temple priest and a levite from the ritual tribe of temple priests. These people avoided the Samaritan because He was unclean, both as a Samaritan and because he was bleeding.
The fellow who stopped to help was a just-a-guy Jew who knew something of the law, but not all of the ritual taboos. In spite of what he knew, he put the welfare of the injured man above the purity regulations of his belief system.
That, in a nutshell, is the meaning of Jesus’ ministry. He recognized right action as more important in the eyes of God than right belief.
There, does that clarify things?
Hello Brian,
The true mission of Jesus Christ was to die on the cross for the redemption for our sins. Read any one of the synoptic gospels and you will find Jesus’s own foreshadowing of his true purpose. His healing the sick and doing good deeds is the fulfillment of the OT prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, et cetera. You are interjecting 2 things: 1) your belief in evolution cited from what u have posted above,and 2) your belief that Jesus Christ is human, NOT divine again cited from above. Now Brian, as Christians, we believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ (with an exception of a few sects) and consequently we believe in the Trinity. (again except the Unitarian sect). Now, your above statement would be plausible IF Jesus was not divine. Now, one can not prove faith, because that is it’s nature. So if you’re looking for empirical proof, you’re never gonna get it. That is why faith is insisted upon when interpreting Scripture. What exactly was your conversation with Nathan about? It seems you are trying to dispute more than one issue here. You are entitled to your own beliefs, and I respect that. If, you would state what your original dispute was with Nathan, perhaps I can be of service?
CrusaderX,
Ask any Jew about Isaiah and you’ll get a completely different answer. And as far as dying on the cross, please read the above for the lunacy of this position…God is angry at disobedience so He sends an innocent for us to murder to make his anger go away.
Further, read the gospels a bit more carefully yourself. Pay particular attention to Mk 13:32 for example, where Jesus claims to not know what the Father does. But, Jesus and the Father are of one substance, and further, Jesus exhibits periods of omniscience, so how could he be one with the Father and NOT know what the Father knew?
Or consider that kingship follows the MALE bloodline in Judaism. Yet, Jesus is not the son of Joseph, so he cannot claim Davidic succession through Mary. Further, it is unclear what Mary’s bloodline is.
Also, Jesus is to be of the tribe of Levi…where is that fulfilled?
Brian,
All you did is once again talk about why you don’t believe what Christians do.
What do YOU belive?
You keep talking about Jesus.
Where do you get your stories from about Jesus and where do you get your information on him from?
I suppose the Bible, so once again I ask if you accept what the Bible says as true?
Who was Jesus, what was his relation to God, and where do you get your beliefs from?
Brian,
1)Both branches of Judaism whether Reformed, Hasidic/ Orthodox have different interpretations not only of Isaiah but even of Genesis! The foundation of the Torah. Judasim as a whole does not accept Jesus as their Meshiah because they anticipated their Meshiah to be a warrior king. Now, if all you see is the human side of JC you will say that this was not accomplished. But look deeper. This Christian sect that started off as a bastard branch of Judaism that started with a son of a lowly carpenter and twelve guys (minus Judas) has successfully taken over the Roman Empire, and with it, the entirety of the Western world since the first Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne. When pagan Rome defeated the last Jewish rebels at Manasseh 70 A.D. they dispersed them throughout the world.(diaspora) However, these Jewish people repatriated their homes which is now present-day Israel fulfilling prophecy. Now what about JC? Did he forsake his people after he died? no. HE’S COMING BACK. Upon the Second Coming will come the Thousand-Year Reign. “Thousand” in Hebrew, numbers signify meaning. (40 days) = suffering/ trials 7 = perfection. 6 = imperfection (666 = indicates supreme imperfection/ evil) Most scholars agree that “thousand” indicates permanence/ eternity. It is still a work in the process Brian, when he comes back and Israel’s mass conversion to JC is complete, only then will ALL prophecies be fulfilled. In the OT, people would have to sacrifice a SIN OFFERING to cleanse them from their sins (Leviticus). An unblemished lamb. “Unblemished” signifies the purity of the sacrifice, Speckled and potted lambs NOT ALLOWED. God had ordered this for a purpose.It is a foreshadowing of what was to come, Christ’s death on the cross. Indeed, Paul was right, the death of Christ is a stumbling block to the Jews and nonsense to the Gentiles. Meaning, they would not understand the meaning of Christ’s death, and “stumbling block” for Jews because they rely on the law (Torah) for right conduct and believe such is sufficient, but unwittingly are confounded in killing their God. “May his blood be on us, and our children!” -John. The reason Jesus died on the cross was a mission of love of sinners. “I did not come for the righteous, but for sinners.” The Psalms of David is perhaps the best summation in the OT. “Blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven, blessed be the man whose sin the Lord does not record”. How does this come abut? How can one be blameless from sin? Through SACRIFICE, more specifically God’s sacrifice for us, because he loves us. “No greater love has a man than this: to lay down his life for another” Or in our case, the sinners i.e. ALL OF HUMANITY. That is why the title Lamb of God is applied to him. Because as Paul states: “Through the blood of one man, all have been made clean”. This act of Christ’s sacrifice, Brian, is just as true for you as it is for me, and as it was and will be for countless generations of Christians. It is an “Eternal Act” of sacrifice, since it cleanses us from our sins and God’s law is upheld. God is just, Brian. When Moses and his people made the first Covenant with God, it came with terms. “Cursed be he who does not do all of the things prescribed in the law.” AND “He who deserves sin, shall die.” Exodus. Since God is just, He must uphold his law Brian. We all break the law through sin. Therefore, every sinner dies because of his transgressions. However, Brian, God is merciful. He put a substitute in the place of us. That was the whole purpose of the sacrificial lamb Brian. However, that lamb was imperfect, and every time one sinned, one would have to sacrifice another lamb. But when JC sacrificed His life for all, (unblemished = sinless in Christ’s case) it was a perfect and living sacrifice. You see Brian, our New Covenant in Christ (who share in his sacrifice and New Life) does not override the Old Covenant God made with the Chosen at Sinai, it fulfills it. I pray to God to give you guidance.
“He who sins deserves death”
typo correction
2) Now you are talking about Trinity. The triune God is one but exists in 3 “personas” This term was from the original greek, many people say One God 3 persons, but persons and persona is a bit different in the greek. Persona means ore of “thing”. Semantics aside, you cite the gospel of Mark where Jesus says he does not know what is in the Father’s mind but is at the same time God. Once again do we look for empirical scientific evidence Brian? Of course not! So let’s attack this rationally. St. Augustine, a prominent Catholic theologian had the same problems as you did Brian. He asked, “How can 3 be 1 and 1 be 3? He was puzzled by the idea of Trinity. Thankfully God has given us the grace through faith to explain these lofty things to others rationally. The personas of the Trinity are indeed separate because they are distinguishable respectively, through their “accidents”. Brian, there is a difference between a substance of a thing and it’s accidents. This is very Aristotelian, however, before you accuse me of backing Christianity with pagan philosophy, we should go directly to St. Thomas Aquinas. Being and Non-Being. “Esse” the essence of a thing. It is a philosophy based on Aristotle, but came in use in rationalizing the Trinity by Aquinas. God is “substance”, and the 3 personas Aquinas writes are the “accidents” of the “substance” of God. (I must be careful to stay in philo. rather than theo. since you want a rational explanation.) The substance of a thing is its essence. While the accidents of a thing are the traits of the thing, that comprise what that thing is. For example: I am a man. Man is my substance. It is different from my being a dog. Dogs have substance which pertain to them. And accidents would be my arms legs, for a dog it would be legs, tail etc. But im getting off topic here. Now, substance NEVER CHANGES while accidents change. (my arms could be cut off, like tail of a dog too.) But even if my arms were cut, I would still be a MAN. I would still have my esse. Esse, “Being” roughly translated- is NEVER changing. SUBSTANCE = STATIC. ACCIDENTS = DYNAMIC. So, this explanation rationalizes God being made man. In the example of JC, which you know so well Brian. Even though JC became man, he may have had an accidental change, but his substantial change stays the same. He may have become human like us, but he DID NOT LOSE HIS DIVINITY. Furthermore Brian, John 1:1 is a statement of Jesus. Encoded, if you will but it has everything to do with the above explanation. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was made
Preach on CX!
It’s all bullshit.
With such an argument like that one Damoon I now see the error of my ways…
Thank you for your wonderful thoughts and insight on the discussion.
You’re welcome.
Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing
GOD HATES FAGS. AIDS CURES FAGS. AMERICA IS DOOMED FOR ITS SUPPORT OF THE FAG AGENDA.
Brian insists on a logical consistent Bible. It isn’t. It relies on faith–i.e., mysticism.
If you’re not willing to break out of the cage of logic, you’ll never be able to reconcile it.
That doesn’t mean, however, you have to believe like Hank and Nathan that the entire universe is only 10,000 years old.
Much about God is beyond human comprehension. We don’t have to be willfully stupid about the rest though.
Dear Concerned Citizen — or are you Fred Phelps? Where in the Bible does it say “God hates fags”? My Bible says “For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” We all need Jesus.
Brian, if you think that no one cares about you, I hope you take the time to print out this blog and realize that many, many people care enough about you to share Christ with you. What you do with Christ is up to you. And while I’m sure you feel high and mighty for quoting scripture about removing the log from my own eye before worrying about the splinter in yours, I think you misunderstood my comments. I truly hope that you find the Lord. I hope that some of the comments you have read penetrate your soul.
Concerned — Why does God create “fags” if he hates them?
The same brain chemistry that creates homosexuality leads to creativity. It is an environmental adaptation, the same as introversion and extroversion. They all have a role to play in a more diverse, hence, HEALTHIER society.
I do not believe in any god or anything in the bible as being a fact. As such I don’t really care about religion or churches as long as they don’t infringe on my rights. I do not preach my beliefs out of respect for others and I expect the same consideration in return. I believe that many problems could be solved simply by following the Golden Rule. Therefore when I see pseudo religious men like Fox, Wright, and Phelps preach to the media and push their religious agenda on the public (and me) it pisses me off. The only thing preventing me from walking into cental christian and b!tch slapping wright is tolerance. So when idiots post things like:”Remember that nowhere in the bible are the words “tolerance” or “compromise” found!”I think about what I know about the bible and jesus and I say “What a f—ing moron!” It may not be written in the bible but toleranc is an accurate description of the way jesus lived his life.
So if he never uttered those words it is probably because he incorrectly assumed those who followed would be intelligent enough to not only read the words but to read between the lines and take the way he lived his life as an example of how a christian is supposed to live.
Calling all moral Christians to stand up for our brother in Christ! All who can make the next service this Sunday In our state capitol, in Topeka, need to take the time to stand up for Christ and attend Rev Phelps service this Sunday! We all need to save the sould of the lost and eliminate the open threat of liberals from spoiling our religion, our salvation, and the future of our children.
Pray now for our rightous conservative leader, spreading christian values, and fighting off satans grasp on liberals who seek to destroy American values!
See you all, in Topeka, for prayers and committment towards the conservative ideals toward a christian society restored in America – once again!
I used to beleive [insert religion here] my whole entire life, but then I stumbled onto the WE blog and those messages changed my [insert age] years of core beliefs!
Why do we even bother? It only ends up getting kinda ugly.
*cackles madly at her hypocrisy*
Has anyone dressed in black robes and put on skeleton masks and protested at Phelps church in Topeka?
HE IS THE ONE THAT SHOULD BE PROTESTED!!! Any one who protests and dead American soldiers funerals who gave the ultimate sacrifice of their life for this country they love ….
How about protesting a “Satanic Priest” posing as a christian minister and army funerals!!!
I am ready to picket this sicko and I don’t even support the war we are spending our great grand kids futures down the drain on. I would even rather be a liberal with compassion for fellow Americans and our solidiers than that “A” hole Phelps! Has he ever been picked against?
3) The genealogy of Jesus was painstakingly traced in the gospel of Mathew. If you read it, you will see that Mary is indeed the descendant of David, King of Israel. In the OT, the Meshiah would be called wonder-counseler, MIGHTY GOD, etc. Now, no one who is human would be called MIGHTY GOD because to do so would be blasphemy and in their culture you would be stoned. And the Meshiah is of the tribe of Judah. JC is the “Lion of the tribe of Judah” so I don’t know where you get that he is a descendant of Levi. The only answer is that the Meshiah would have to be God Himself. Consequently, JC is the only person in Jewish history who has accomplished and fulfilled each and every single prophecy that has been foretold by the prophets about the Meshiah. Do you know anyone else who has done so? The chances of a person who is born of a virgin and doing everything JC has done is mathematically, 6 billion to 1.
It’s still all bullshit. Well said, K.
Proudlib,
If you accept the premise of there being a God then the Bible is very logical.
Damoon,
I see you have resorted to one liners now. Are you that short on thoughtful comments or are you short on time?
PL,As a fairly creative straight guy, I tend to argue with your interpretation. I don’t think creativity is inherited; it’s developed. Gay people find out early in life how important image is to survival, and invent all sorts of ways to mask their homosexuality. Such constant awareness spills over into other outlets of expression.When gays gain complete acceptance in society at large, the old separate gay culture will begin to die off, and over time, gay people as a whole will become no more or less creative than the rest of the population. In some ways, it’s tragic that creativity is often born of oppression, but ending the oppression is much more important.
I state again that Brian has the best take on religion I have seen yet.
That said, I concur with Damoon. “It’s all busllshit”
Back to the point of the thread. If it is all bullshit then Phelps is the scavenging insect at the bottom of the pile. Distant from the warmth of the sun or the cleansing breeze to take odor away, Phelps feeds at the bottom.
YOU ARE ALL GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL. AMERICA IS DOOMED. IT IS TOO LATE TO PRAY FOR THIS SINFUL NATION. GAY=GOT AIDS YET?
YOU ARE ALL GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL. AMERICA IS DOOMED. IT IS TOO LATE TO PRAY FOR THIS SINFUL NATION. GAY=GOT AIDS YET?
I dont know if you know this but ANY sin is enough to get a person in hell cuz any and all sins are an infracture of God’s law. Why isn’t this Phelps character preaching about other sins and warning people about hatred (IAN!) theft, rape, and murder? Why is he so hung up on homosexual sin?
Proudliberal,
Yes, I insist on a logically consistent view of the Divine. After all, the evidence has been put in front of you. If you choose to ignore it and come up with fanciful speculation, that’s your choice. You can retain all of the awe, mystery, and paradox without holding on to tales told around campfires and church councils by men ignorant of what we know today.
One can certainly make statements about the divine that are in keeping with what we can see, hear, feel, touch, and deduce without making ststements that violate the fundamental realities of the world.
CrusaderX,
Isn’t that the point of the whoile blog? If Phelps, Orthodox Christians, Catholics, Terry Fox, Anglicans, Baptists, the Church of Christ Christian (a neo-Nazi) group, Orthodox Jews, Reformed Jews, Muslims, and every other “people of the book” can come up with thousands of interpretations of the same text, and can’t even agree on the translations or books of this text, then what you believe is “true” is just one set of dogmas among thousands. This approach has led to split after split after split among Christians over incredibly minor issues of interpretation that are, after all, worth spit.
Here’s a little joke on the subject.
This guy is walking along a bridge when he looks up and sees another man poised to jump. It’s a great distance, and the man will surely die should he go through with it. Well, feeling the pull of christian faith, the man runs up to the jumper and yells, “Wait! Wait! Don’t Jump. It can’t be all that bad. The world is a wonderful place. Besides, killing yourself is a sin, are you a christian?” The jumper looks at him and says, “Yes.” The guy goes, “Me too! Are you protestant or catholic?” “Protestant,” the jumper says.”Me too! Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran?” “Lutheran.” The man almost cries. “Me too! Lutheran standard or reformation?” “Reformation,” says the jumper.”ME TOO! Reformation of 1869 or Reformation of 1757?” “1757.”So the guy pushes the jumper off the side of the bridge, yelling, I HEATHEN SCUM!”
Ha! That’s pretty funny. I don’t advocate pushing anyone off bridges though Brian. Suicide was always too Sartreian for my tastes. People always have different ideas about the same object. It could be due to the fact that people usually tend to subjectivize things and relate things to themselves. The color Red may convey different meanings for me rather than you, to me it could convey an impression of lust, while to you it could be understood as an impression of bravery. But just because you and I interpret the color Red differently, doesn’t stop the color Red from being Red. Furthermore, you seem to think that because there have been Schisms in Christianity that makes Scripture unintelligible? Or maybe you think you hold a monopoly on truth since you proclaim your take on Jesus’s life as the most rational/sanitary? Many athiests who were weaned on a particular branch of Christianity become athiests because they become dissatisfied with a particular teaching and/or practice of their church. Consequently, in their condemnation of their particular branch, they also condemn the entire tree. They fail to recognize some very fundamental differences between different branches.For example, Ian’s SSPX believe that “race-mixing” is a from of beastiality, while run of the mill RCs believe that all men deserve respect, because all men were made in the image and likeness of God. (genesis) Do I judge that RCs is superior to SSPX? No. I respect Ian’s beliefs as I respect the man himself, let God be the judge between him and myself.
Well Con,”YOU ARE ALL GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL. AMERICA IS DOOMED. IT IS TOO LATE TO PRAY FOR THIS SINFUL NATION.”If that’s the case, we might as well make the trip as fun as possible, so let’s party!
CrusaderX,
I condemn the premises of any interpretation of scripture when they conflict with what is known to be true.
So, if your premises are that man was born perfect and immortal and that via original sin he became imperfect and mortal and that God promised a redeemer to clear the mess up, in spite of the facts that:
a) it is abundantly clear that we were not here when some other species were
b) that we were here when some others species were gone
c) that we have never been immortal and came from lower life forms.
d) that we have never been perfect since no lower life forms are or ever have been perfect.
then you have a severe case of cognitive dissonance.
Once you throw out the “perfect and immortal” premise, which you must if you are honest with yourself and face the evidence in a disinterested manner, then much of the Pauline edifice for Christianity comes tumbling down.
That doesn’t mean that scripture or Jesus, or his life, death, or acts lose meaning. It means that, as we come to a fuller understanding of the world, who we are, and where we came from (and perhaps where we’re going), then we need to re-examine the fundamental premises of our belief systems. In doing so, we may have to abandon dearly held positions that just cannot be true. In the end, we arrive at a more profound, though perhaps less pleasing and simplistic, view.
So, feel free to believe what you want, but you must first make statements to me that throw out the last 500 years of progress made in all the relevent fields of human academic endeavor.
“Human academic endeavor”. I didn’t know science was infallible, Brian. Especially since the heliocentric theory was only a later development of the age-old geocentric theory. But I guess scientists really are infallible Brian, they never make mistakes. Like how everybody “knew” that the world was flat and any run-of-the-mill common sense scientist outright mocked the quacks who believed in a oblong-spherical world. And your idea of an evolutionary world that has always existed is illogical when it comes to the cause/effect relationship of nature. If every cause was the result of a preceding effect like the infallible evolutionists claim, then reality would be illogical. Are you a proponent of Big Bang Theory? That is more feasible than an existence of an ever-present universe. However if you are, then you would have to identify a Primary Cause. What pray tell is the Primary Cause, Brian? Ah, the scientists are silent. For me to say that the Primary Cause (Prime Mover) was God, is to inject philosophy into science. Science deals with the accidents of nature What,when,where,how. Philosophy deals with the WHY,Brian. They are two different fields that deal with different kinds of questions. Science can never answer WHY Brian. Theology goes hand-in-hand with philosophy because it too deals with the WHY question. There is a reason that Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is called a theory Brian. THEORY, Scientific THEORY is (Gasp!) Different from scientific FACT! (There I said it) With that being said, is Darwin’s theory of Evolution plausible to the scientist’s mind? Sure it’s plausible. But is it air-tight definite undeniable scientific fact? NO, Brian, it’s NOT. A true scientist always scrutinizes his theories,and questions his work, you seem to have made a Dogmatic pronouncement about Darwinism. Now to the big question: CAN DARWINISM DISPROVE CHRISTIANITY? (like you claim) NO, WHY NOT? BECAUSE SCIENCE DEALS WITH ANSWERING THE IMMEDIATE CAUSES AND EFFECTS OF NATURE, WHILE PHILO./THEO. DEALS WITH ANSWERING THE PRIMARY ULTIMATE CAUSE/EFFECT OF NATURE. Also FYI, it is not only scientific fields that have progressed over the last 500 years Brian, Philo. and theo. have progressed just as much.
Has Brian even told us what he believes?
It is nice that he can sit here attacking everyone elses beliefs when he has yet to reveal his own.
So once again:
Who was Jesus and where do you get your information on him from?
Do you believe in any God?
Nathan,
If you want Brian and other atheists to express any blind faith ask them their views on the holohoax and racial equality!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Nathan,
So, do you disagree with any of the critiques of current Christian dogma? If so, which ones, and based on what corresponding proof and/or evidence?
Do you place what is demonstrably true behind what you have been culturally indoctrinated to accept? Like
Do you believe man was ever perfect? If the answer is no, then what purpose does Jesus’ death serve?
Do you believe God requires blood to make him feel good about us again?
Would you, in a similar manner, give your child an orphan after she’s been bad and ask her to sacrifice it to you so you’ll forgive her?
I’ve answered many of your questions..answer a few of mine..
Actually, I have yet to see you answer any of my questions.
You ramble on about the faults of the Christian faith, but have yet to share your own.
Once again, I ask these questions so I can engage in a discussion with you.
You have yet to present your side, only attack mine.
I have stated to you exactly where I stand with regard to standard Christian dogma, the sources of much of the background, the supporting evidence.
To be even more clear..I belong to no organized faith, Christian or otherwise.
I accept the world for what it is and see in it the wonder and paradox that it contains.
I keep my dogmatic statements, like my expenses, to a minimum. They’re easier to keep track of that way, and I don’t get into trouble when going over my monetary or intellectual balance, as some do.
From his earlier posts Brian seems to be an athiest of the Absolutist Darwinian sort. Brian, athiesm is a religion, because it deals with ultimate principles. Sure it may not have an elaborate tradition such as any of the world’s major religions have, but it is indeed a religion, that focuses on the glorification of self in replacement of God.
Crusader,
Not at all. The Darwinian critique is the clearest and simplest to state in a limited amount of space.
Of course, neither you or Nathan bother to try to refute the Darwinian claims..or to adjust your world view to accept them.
Nor do you make any statements about the reasonableness of the blood atonement idea…that God needs blood to make him forgive us…or the fact that mankind in toto committed the act – so we are guilty of murder.
Nor have you clarified any of the inconsistencies of Jesus’ alleged fulfillment of prophecy…the kingship issue, the genealogy issues, etc.
Wow, I guess my earlier posts are invisible to your eyes then.
Brian,
I have not discussed any of your points because you refuse to tell me what it is you believe.
Once again, I am not asking you what you think about Christianity.
I am asking you if you believe in a God?
YES/NO
Where do you get your information on this God you believe in from, if you do?
What do you believe about Christ? Was he a person? Where do you get your information on him from?
Brian,
Don’t pretend like my non-response to your posts makes them true and undebatable.
They are not.
Crusader,
You answered nothing. You show the typical lack of understanding of the issues as most.
First of all, you completely misunderstand what a scientific theory is.
Let me give you a non-Darwinian example….It’s called the 2nd law of thermodynamics and this is it:
“It is impossible to construct a device that operates in a cycle and produces no effect other than the transfer of heat from a cooler body to a hotter body.”
Note that the statement is a negative and negative statements cannot be proved. However, the “proof” comes from the fact that no violation of this statement has ever been produced, no matter how hard scientists have tried or how clever their experiments have been. People still try to construct machines that violate the statement. The Patent Office no longer accepts patents based on violations of the principle.
It is the same with all laws of nature. A scientific “theory” is not simply some simple statement that may or may not be acceptable to you. It is a statement which explains all observations, at least in a qualitative way, and for which no known violation has ever been observed.
With regard to “science” versus your theology, you seem to be of the view that if the world as we observe it contradicts the dogmas of your belief system then so much the worse for the world as we observe it.
As Einstein observed,
“”The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which based on experience, which refuses dogmatic
Jesus, I’m sure, is rolling over in his grave !!
The word Bible is derived from the Greek Biblia or “the books.” The word scripture is derived from the Latin. The Bible is the sacred book of Christians and Jews. It stands at the center of that community in which we find our life as Christians.
It must always be remembered that Christianity did not spring from the New Testament but the New Testament from Christianity. Christianity should not be equated solely with the Bible. Long before it had a written literature, Christian faith had shown itself a triumphant and transforming power. Christianity is therefore greater than its documents.
The 1611 version of the Bible was translated under the patronage of King James. The Douay Version (1609-10) was the first Roman Catholic Bible in English. The King James Version was the culmination of earlier translations and revisions. “Seek out of the book of the Lord and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it has commanded, and his spirit has gathered them.”
Some people need to listen more and speak less. There are subtle inferences in the Bible concerning profound truths that are taken out of context and mistakenly allowed to stand on their own. The Bible will interpret itself if allowed to be read with an open mind to the whole truth and not to the narrow interpretations of others. It is still the best rule of interpretation to let the Holy Spirit do the teaching but prideful people believe that their own spirit is the Holy Spirit. Those who pretend to know when confronted with a group who knows better, will many times entrench themselves in whatever delusions that drives them to bring forth error and shout even louder. In that respect, they become the truth and the way, take upon themselves the forms of deity and become false christs. Many of them will be easy to spot because in the long run, division, hatefulness and pride will show up to expose them. If you lack wisdom pray for it, if you think that you are wiser than we are, then what are your intentions here?
The quote should be
The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity.
One,
What a load of hooey. If you cannot speak in a clear manner understood by all to whom you address your comments, then in all likelihood you’re using the alleged “profundity” of your statements as a smoke screen.
The questions are simple enough. Yet the answers seem to elude you all.
I don’t deny the power of many aspects of what Jesus taught…what is at issue, and what you all seem to avoid, is the dogma that has been accreted to that early powerful message.
Really, so you advocate authoring your own religion then? You are forgetting that religion in general deals with absolute truth, and that truth is static and uncompromising. That is why suicide-bombers are killing themselves because they believe absolutely that their actions gets an approval stamp from Allah. So a “cosmic religion” is not going to be any religion if it does not stand on absolute truth, it is vulnerable to change, and true Christianity never changes Brian. And yes, i understand the Scientific Method Brian, my beef isn’t with scientists developing theories, my beef is when people absolutize a theory and expecting others to admit to said theory, if not doing so, would brand them as unsanitary.
Truth is absolute and uncompromising, huh? I’d suggest that you study a little history, including that of your own religion.
Of course truth evolves as our understanding of things becomes clearer and as it is “revealed” to us.
Once again you take what I said out of context. Religious truth is absolute. However, the nature of truth OUTSIDE of a religious scope is relativistic. Do you want to get into an epistemological debate with me now too Brian? Be my guest. But I don’t think you really think about anything I post.
And Brian, I am not an advocate for schismatics, Fundamentals of Christianity has not changed nor will it ever since 33 A.D. The fundamental belief of Jesus being the son of God and the savior of the world has not changed, what has changed is people’s interpretations of it. Just because someone formulates a church that is outside the scope of the belief system of fundamental Christianity doesn’t mean that the original concept is forever lost and forgotten. Oh, and interpretations vary even on the Quran and the Book of Mormon, so let’s not be childish and resort to smear tactics, shall we?
I will repeat what I said, including the limitation you put on:
RELIGIOUS Truth is absolute and uncompromising, huh? I’d suggest that you study a little history, including that of your own religion.
Of course truth evolves as our understanding of things becomes clearer and as it is “revealed” to us.
A few examples,
“Just war” theory in juxtaposition to the absolute Christian taboo on the taking of any human life.
The removal of Jewish dietary laws, the moving of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday based on the supposedly “inspired” decisions of the early church leaders. Now, if you accept this, then you must explain the break with Roman Catholicism since in the one case, the authority to change the laws came from the leaders appointed by Christ, and in the latter case, the pope is not even recognized as in the line of apostolic succession.
You can start with those..I’m sure you can anticipate others which I’ll cite to you after each sophistic response to the prior examples.
Face it, CrusaderX, no matter how much the average Christian embraces “absolute religious truth”, all ethics are situational ethics.
Consider the prohibition on the taking of a life and the crimninal in your home with your wife and daughter held hostage..and you with a 0.44 pointed at him.
Is there absolute truth Brian?
Brian, do you believe in god?
YES or NO
Hi Brian,You are citing Judeo-Christian TRADITION. not the FUNDAMENTALS of Judaism or Christianity. And both are NOT mutually exclusive, Brian. Jews still worship Yahweh, just like their ancient Hebrew ancestors did thousands of years ago. And, Christians still worship JC just like the Church Fathers did even BEFORE Vatican City was established. I admit, not every action of the Church was perfect, but you must delineate between the core principle of a religion and the morality of its practitioners. Face it Brian, your argument is unconvincing, because you keep regurgitating the same rhetoric over and over again.
DEAD U.S. SOLDIERS
You laymen argue over semantics and ancient greek text while Phelps protests out of HATE at dead U.S. soldiers burial cerimonies to honor their sacrifice to keep America free.
Could Satan have you decieved with deception along with Phelps or do you just not give a damn about what these young American kids have sacrificed for our freedoms?
We all need to stop the hate and ignorance that Phelps uses to make Kansas the laughing stock and shame pit of America. Get off your mindfull back sides and do something. If out great leaders who have had lasting effects on this great nation have taught us anything it is: to engage ignorance at hate. This was the message at the Boston Tea party when Americans did not sit back. This was the message of Lincoln when Americans went to war to end slavery. Martin Luther King did not sit back and complain – he took a stand and confronted ignorance. As a result over time we do move forward. It is time to once again take a stand on ignorance – Mr. Phelps!
Brava, Public!First question: what should we do?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~ Stephan Roberts
Back to topic here:Apparently, everyone who disagrees with Fred Phelps over anything is going to hell. If that is truly the case, then I’ll be sure to bring some weenies and marshmallows.
Since no state in this union seems to be able to (Or have the guts.) put a stop to this hateful fool and his mindless ZOMBIES. I say it is high time for the people of any place he takes his hate to, to STAND TOGETHER AND RUN THEM OUT OF TOWN. TARRED AND FEATHERED IF NEEDS BE! This was done in the past with fools and troublemakers to great affect. Why not see if it will work again.
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
RE: “GOD HATES FAGS.” “AIDS CURES FAGS.” “AMERICA IS DOOMED FOR ITS SUPPORT OF THE FAG AGENDA.”Posted by: CONCERNED CITIZEN | February 07, 2006 at 07:52 PM
“YOU ARE ALL GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL.” “AMERICA IS DOOMED. IT IS TOO LATE TO PRAY FOR THIS SINFUL NATION.” “GAY=GOT AIDS YET?”Posted by: CONCERNED CITIZEN | February 08, 2006 at 12:14 AM
Can we all say HELLO PHELPS! YOU SICK DEMON FROM HELL!
I still say you and your hateful bunch needs to be run out of this country. Tared and feathered if needs be.
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
Lady Donna,Please try not to judge all us Kansans from what Phelps says. We aren’t all like that! I’ve been fighting him and his merry little band for nigh on 30 years now.
Twenty states have enacted legislation to protect themselvs from this demonic fool in KANSAS!
What is the matter with our law makers that they sit idle while this demonic fool spreads hate at our fallen heros memorial services anfter these young kids have givent their life for our GREAT country!
Welcome to KANSAS …. it is not HELL but you can see it from there!
I see the hate from hell everytime I see reverend Fred Phelps picket soldiers funerals – in KANSAS!
Uncle SAM!
Lady Donna,
You sure are not very tolerant of other’s veiws, are you?
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
REV FRED PHELPS says he recpects all views …. especially of the dead!
People need to stop saying “judeo-Christian!
The attempt to describe one’s morality or principles as “Judeo-Christian” is consequently not at all traditional. It could theoretically be used to describe one’s attachment to the moral principles of the Bible, including the Ten Commandments, as being the principles of all moral life, and which the Church received from the Israelites. However, there are a couple of problems. The first one is that the Jews themselves in the time of Our Lord, did not keep the moral principles of the Old Law, as Our Lord did not cease reiterating. How could one possibly use the title of “Judeo-Christian heritage” to express one’s attachment to these principles, when the Jews themselves practiced polygamy and divorce; when the Jews did not hesitate to undermine the first and great commandment of the love of God and neighbor, by teaching the exact opposite: “love your neighbor and hate your enemy” (Mt. 5:43), or “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” (Mt. 5:38)? How could we possibly use this title when the vast majority of Jews have no problem with euthanasia, abortion, birth control, divorce, homosexuality, and even the elimination of God, and love towards our neighbor from public life, politics, education and the courts? What could this title “Judeo-Christian heritage” consequently really mean?
If it is used to indicate those who observe the Ten Commandments, and keep them as the foundation of all morality, then let that be said explicitly: our heritage is the Ten Commandments. Let there be no ambiguity. However, it is not Jewish. It is our Catholic heritage. The Catholic Church has in fact succeeded the Israel of the Old Testament, as being the true people of God. Present-day Jews are not a part of this heritage, nor are they our older brothers in the Faith, as the Pope has, alas, stated. They do not have the true Faith, the Faith of the Catholic Church, for they explicitly reject and refuse to believe in Christ, the Son of God made man, despite the fact that He fulfilled all the prophecies of the Old Testament. By refusing to believe in the Holy Trinity, they refuse to believe in God as He has revealed Himself. They consequently have not had the faith of Abraham, who believed everything that God revealed to him, since Christ revealed this mystery of the Trinity.
The existence in the Church of a modern, liberal, ecumenical concept of a Judeo-Christian heritage dates back to the Vatican II document on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions, Nostra Aetate. This declaration mentions twice that “Christians and Jews have a common spiritual heritage” (ยง4), without explaining what that is. If by this is meant that we share that part of sacred Scripture that we call the Old Testament, it is partly right (the Jews reject seven inspired books of the Old Testament). If, however, by this is meant that there is something common with respect to our spiritual life, Faith and moral principles, then it is entirely wrong, for present-day Judaism is based upon the denial of the most basic truths of the Catholic Faith.
Consequently, this politically correct term “Judeo-Christian heritage” must be regarded as vague, deliberately ambiguous, liberal, favoring indifferentism and ecumenism, and not at all orthodox. [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__theological.htm#judeo_christian
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Ian
RE: “Lady Donna,”
“You sure are not very tolerant of other’s veiws, are you?”
When it comes to people like phelps and his hate cult, the kkk, the nazi party other hate cults and you. The answer is NO! I have no tolerance for any of you at all!
I think the bloody lot of you are a waste of time, resources, DNA, chemicals and oxygen and need to be run out of this Great Country!
Perhaps you, phelps and all the other hate cults could all have any children you have placed in foster homes, the adults sterilized so you can not pass the hate on anymore and then be dumped on a deserted island somewhere until you all die off!
Lady Donna Marie Royce
Ian,
If you consider HATE CULTS as good, pure and decent, then you are correct. I am out to SHUT THEM ALL DOWN and if you side with hate cults, then I am out to shut you down as well. I have NO USE for HATE CULTS OR THOSE THAT SIDE WITH THEM!
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
Lady Donna — A hate-filled creep like Ian has no idea about what is PURE and DECENT. He is nothing but a racist bigot. Apparently, the only thing he has going for him is his own arrogance. He knows that everything he says infuriates most of us, so he pushes us to confront him. He is nothing but a small-minded, racist pig with nothing to do all day but push his white-supremisist, Nazi agenda on anyone who will listen.
CrusaderX,
Sorry to respond to your last postings after so many days, but I saw Lady Donna’s recent addition, read it and a few earlier ones, and decided to respond to yours after all. This will be my last comment, so please have the last word.
I’m a little bit amazed that you claim that the prohibition against murder, the Deuteronomic dietary/clothing/behavior restrictions, and the apostolic succession are only traditions. If these are only traditions, then so is everything else.
I’ll remind you of the commandment against murder as well as Jesus’ clear statements about the subject.
The commandments also tellyou to keep holy the Sabbath..and the Sabbath is SATURDAY. The day was changed for a number of reasons, many political.
Again, the Deuteronomic laws were waived because the early church fathers didn’t think that non-Jews would understand or follow the restrictions – again a pragmatic decision.
I’m also somewhat amused by your comments that my arguments “do not convince”. Well…
You are the one claiming that angels, demons, burning bushes, blood sacrifice of innocents, talking snakes, and all the rest are “convincing”. God has placed the evidence disproving the basic dogma before you and you still cling like grim death to the ancient dogma and the ideas of “heresy”.
Ian – you surely are not one to talk about tolerance when you advocate genocide of those who happen to have the wrong skin color!
Gertie and Ben,
I agree with the two of you and thank you for the back up.
If ian would use what little mind he has and read my postings at http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/01/and_the_pat_rob.html he might see where I am coming from. I put up with junk like ian’s each and every day from the local African American adults and their youth here in Minneapolis.
I am normaly a peaceful WICA woman and will not fight unless there is no other way out of it, but THINGS like phelps and his bunch, the kkk, the nazi party, other hate groups and ian give Myself and others no option but to fight.
I just think it is high time that we all stop sitting on our lazy behinds and trusting our Governments (Local, State and Federal.) to put a stop to THINGS like phelps and his bunch, the kkk, the nazi party, other hate groups and ian for us and stand up and stop them OURSELVES! It is time to grow up and fight our own fights.
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
I found this article posted on hate boy phelps site while I was tracking what he is doing so far and I think most of us here will like it.
I have CAPITALIZED some of the words so fools like phelps and ian are able to see and understand them.
Daily News, Bowling Green
Families who have LOST LOVED ONES IN COMBAT, DESERVE their PRIVATE time with them during their funerals.
It is DESPICABLE some people protest at these funerals of young men and women killed DEFENDING our country.
They have NO BUSINESS at these ceremonies, which is why we are supportive of a bill that passed the Kentucky Senate last week and in the House on Monday that would keep protesters 300 feet from a funeral or a memorial service.
The bill comes in response to the DISRUPTIVE ANTICS of the RADICAL Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., whose members travel the country protesting at funerals, holding signs that read, “Thank God for IEDs,” the improvised explosive devices that have claimed so many lives in Iraq.
The group, which believes the U.S. government supports homosexuality, even went so far as to protest the funerals of coal miners killed in a West Virginia mine last month.
These are TWISTED, SICK individuals whose freedom of speech is defended, ironically, by the same people they are protesting, fallen soldiers. Last year, they protested in our city at the funeral of a soldier from Morgantown, who was killed in Iraq.
The bill would prohibit demonstrators from “making unreasonable noise” or “making any utterance, gesture, or display designed to outrage” people attending memorial services. Several other states have similar bills pending.
The General Assembly was trying to rush through the bill before the Feb. 8 funeral of Army Pfc. Scott A. Messer, who was killed Feb. 3 in Iraq. Both the Senate and House bills have emergency clauses, which allows them to become law upon the Governor’s signature.
Families deserve their time to grieve and shouldn’t have to be disrupted by the taunts and screams from a misguided few.
“It’s so hard on the families of loved ones and those that have lost and made the ultimate sacrifice,” said Maj. Gen. Donald Strom, Kentucky’s adjutant general. “It’s a slap in the face. But you know, there’s a higher power and so we have to focus on the good things in this wonderful country.”
We applaud the House for moving quickly in passing this important bill and sending it to the Governor for his signature.
Personaly, I also agree with other States passing such laws and I applaud this State for having THE GUTS to STAND UP TO PHELPS AND OTHERS LIKE HIM AND SAY “ENOUGH OF THIS HATE JUNK YOU FOOLS.” “GET OUT OF OUR STATE AND STAY OUT.” WE DO NOT NEED OR WANT YOU OR YOUR HATE JUNK HERE!”
I also await the day when Minnesota passes a law like this.
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
Brian,Crap! You sure picked a great time to continue this argument. I thought u disappeared, while u were gone I had a tangle with a few Nazi megalomaniacs and i lost an abortion argument, and you expect me to be at the peak of my game now?? I’ll wait till I can respond with a clear head.Lady Donna,Yeah, Ian is a punk-bitch, more power to ya Lady!
Brian,However, I want you to hink long and hard about this age-old Latin dictum: Ex nihil, nihil sunt. Out of nothing comes nothing. It has to do with the origin of life and the existence of God, but I am just way too tired now to explain. I’m gettin some shut-eye.
CrusaderX, Gertie, Brian and Ben Huie,
I thank you and all those here that have backed me up, supported me and given me words of encouragement. Your kindness gives me the strength to keep fighting THINGS like phelps and his hate cult, the kkk, the nazi party, other hate groups, ian and others like him/them.
Like one fellow poster here, I do not capitalize the names of the above fools because that would denote honor and NONE OF THEM possess that quality. I know honor due to the fact that my Grandfather was Lord Emmit Royce, House of Royce, Devonshire, England (Hence my title of Lady Donna Marie Royce.) and he taught me all that a young English Noble needs to know. Like HONOR, LOYALTY, DIGNITY, COMPASSION and CARE for those that are beneath your station in life. He also taught me the things a young English NobleMAN should know. Like swordsmanship and defending ones family, friends and those that are beneath your station in life as well.
My Grandmum taught me all that a young English NobleWOMAN should know as well. Such as sitting at court with other royals, keeping the house, cooking, sewing, the arts, singing, fixing toys (She taught me this so I could take care of my toys and keep them longer then other children did and I am still at it 40 years latter.) and all the other things a young woman needs to know and all the above that Grandfather taught me. If you reference my other postings at http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/01/and_the_pat you will see why my Grandparents gave me training from both worlds. They knew about my being born both male and female and I think loved me more then my 2 younger brothers due to how I was born. Granted, that was not fair to my younger brothers, but they felt I needed it more.
Again, Thank you one and all for backing me up and I WILL KEEP FIGHTING ALL THESE HATEFUL NUTS UNTIL THEY ARE ALL KICKED OUT OF THIS GRAND COUNTRY! We can all live without them and their hate.
Now. Like CrusaderX stated at 2:15 AM, “I am just way too tired now to explain. I’m gettin some shut-eye.” It is 6:54 AM here in Minneapolis and I have yet to see my bed.
B Good all!Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
My Lady (Donna Marie Royce), remember when dealing with people such as Ian and other hateful people like white supremacist, Nazis, Neo-Nazis, Republikans, and Neo-Cons that they are a sensitive and insecure lot. The reason? At a young and impressionable age Ian (and the others) looked down while in gym class and saw that their tallywackers weren’t nearly as sizeable as the other kids. This, when combined with poor breeding habits on the part of their parents and a lack of genetic diversity, results in an exceedingly unimpressive intelligence in the offspring. They see themselves as everything they aren’t and couldn’t hope to be. Their only recourse is to claim what little they do have as being the source of their greatness over everyone else. Unfortunately these pathetic people can only find things such as skin color or religion. Things completely irrelevant to anyone with any active grey matter. I have yet to see one of these people demonstrate something meaningful like superior intellect. They claim it based on all of the propaganda told to them. But this is just lip service paid to them by their masters who control them like a bunch of little lab mice. They are truly pathetic and deserving of nothing but your contempt.
K,
As I have said before and will keep saying. I feel that ian, phelps and all of their ilk are a waste of time, resources, DNA, chemicals, (The chemicals that make up the body.) energy and oxygen and need to be run out of this Great Country!
There are better things we in this country (Or any other country.) we need to get done. But we have to waist time and energy dealing with fools like ian and phelps.
The sooner ian, phelps and all those like them are run out of this country, THE BETTER! We have more important things that require our attention rather then spend our time on these mental midgets.
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
Amazing, when you look around the world, how many fortresses are in ruins!
Jed – and they usually fall from the rot inside.
ian,
Again you show how UN-INTELLIGENT and CLOSED MINDED you are with your BIGOTED statement of “Oh no, I can just see Lady Donna leading a strike team of gender-bending pagans against me! Be aware though, the home of El Diablo Blanco is a fortress!”
I take umbridge at your hateful statement correlating me with “gender-bending.” Being born intersexed (Both male and female.) is in NO WAY CLOSE to your “gender-bending.” statement and only serves to show how tiny of a mind (If that is what you call that BB rattling around in your empty head.) is.
Being born intersexed can and does cause a host of medical problems and in many cases can cause early death. I was lucky in the fact that the hormone balance in me was enough towards female that it was not deadly and in 2000 I was able to repair the damage my father did to me in 1957 when I was TWO DAYS OLD! You would like my father. You both have a BB for a brain and 10 to 1 you are a kkk member like he is.
As to your statement of my being a pagan. What BB brains like you fail to realize is that what you call pagan has been around far longer then any church you can name. Most of the Bible connected holidays have their roots in pagan celebrations that THE CATHOLIC CHURCH incorporated into their religion in order to convert pagans into the catholic faith. All other religions stemmed from the catholic church and took many of the catholic holy days with them and incorporated them into the new religion they were forming.
At least WICCA (Worship of the earth and nature.) has stayed true and not been so lazy as to incorporate other religions into theirs. WICCA also has nothing to do with the horned one or the place he rules. But with your statement of “The home of El Diablo Blanco,” it would seem to me that you are the one that deals with the horned one. “El Diablo Blanco” means “The White DEVIL!”
As to your hovel being a fortress. I am not so brainless (Like you are.) as to try to attack you in any way. But, But and then again BUT! Were I to try it, nothing you have would be able to stop me. I am a trained swordswoman and an ancient weapons mistress. I deal with and use all weapons from the renaissance era. I am also a student of the martial arts.
All in all ian. You are one super sick puppy and you do not frighten me at all.
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
Lady – I have to laugh a bit. I picture you as a pacifist who would probably disapprove of my work with chemical “devices” over the years. It’s amusing to see one who wallows in imagined violence accuse a likely pacifist of the same!
Lady Donna,Ian can’t be a member of the kkk because they don’t accept Hispanics. That’s why he puts down poor Hispanics to make himself feel superior, but when Hispanics better themselves through hard work in higher-education, he always claims that it was “affirmative action” that was the cause of us being successful. Again, he does this to make himself feel superior. So, don’t worry he’s just a hypocrite and should never be taken seriously.Ian,Do I even need to ridicule you? No. You make yourself out to be an ass just by opening your mouth. I find it comical that you claim to be a Christian, a follower of an ancient Jewish rabbi (may he be blessed forever!) yet at the same time hate the entire Jewish race, while clinging to the megalomaniacal bullshit that is Hitler’s Mein Kampf. Again, hypocritical. Also you claim your uncle was a part of the Waffen SS? Then he was Himmler’s butt-buddy as well as a traitor to Spain. Not something to be overtly proud of. Regarding your house to be a “fortress”, I don’t think your mother’s basement is comparable to the Reichstadt. ;)
Hooray! Ian’s posts were pulled! hooray hooray!
ON YOUR KNEES SPANIARD PIG! SERVICE YOU MASTER AND DO IT NOW! AND NO TEETH EITHER!
HEY EVERYBODY! I FOUND OUT JOHN MALKOVICH, TRUTHREGARDLESS, IS IAN HIMSELF!!! HAHAHAHA!!!
hahahaha!!! Oh Ian! just when I thought you couldn’t be more pathetic, I catch you TROLLING. Oh, God! Thank you Ian, that just made my day!
Ben,
RE; Your posting to me. “Lady – I have to laugh a bit. I picture you as a pacifist who would probably disapprove of my work with chemical “devices” over the years.” Why on Earth would you working with chemical “devices” bother me? I think I know what kind of chemical “devices” you are talking about and I will bet that you are a Red Badge, class A security rating. My Grandmum worked at ‘Northrop Aircraft” ordering materials to build aircraft and a good portion of her work required her to have a Red Badge, class A security rating.
I myself once carried a class A explosives licence when I lived in Utah. I had to study for a class A explosives licence so I could sell fireworks, help re-write the fireworks laws in Utah, and so I could launch my model rockets in Layton, UT without paying a $500.00 fine PER EACH ROCKET AND MOTOR I HAD ON ME AT THE TIME! So, as you can see, I have a good background in explosives as well.
“It’s amusing to see one who wallows in imagined violence accuse a likely pacifist of the same!” Yes! I am a pacifist. But I know when being a pacifist well not ever work on things like phelps, the kkk, ian and others like them and fighting is the ONLY way to deal with them. All they understand is HATE. But if good people like us do not try to stop them, Then we are no better then the hateful people. In fact, we would be worse then the hate groups because we profess tolerance, acceptance, peace and love and then strike those that are different then us from behind!
B good all
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
Well folks, That BB brain phelps bunch say they are going to be here this Thursday the 23rd in Anoka, MN for the funereal of Cpl. Andrew Kemple. The Patriot Guard will be there and I will be there with the guard as well to protect the Kemple family and friends from these black hearted fools.
I read a news story on BB brain’s site and the reporter stated that the phelps bunch are begging for someone to give them a sound beating and one of these days, they are going to get it. The reporter also reminded the BB brains of a Bible passage, “You reap what you sow.” and I hope that this Thursday, THEY REAP A PILE OF PAIN!
After 8 years of tracking that hate cult on the web and getting soundly cursed with some of the most vulgar words I have had the misfortune to read or hear coming out of two supposedly christian females and one male, I AM FINALLY GOING TO FACE THEM AND TRY TO DROWNED OUT THEIR HATE FOR A WHILE!
Perhaps this will get this State to pass funereal protection and anti picketing laws like the other 13 States and our neighbor State of Wisconsin have. I HOPE IT DOES!
Wish me luck all!
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
What I find strange is that without the soldiers whose funerals Fred and his church protest are fighting for the right to let him picket! They have every right to believe what they want but it is Fred’s history of child abuse and other crimes that makes me mad. I really like what the writer of this article said,
“But if we’re already predestined, and nothing can change that, what is the point of the protests?”
I definitely agree. And Ian Santiago on an earlier post you wrote.
“You are dealing with a bunch of degenerate hippy new-agers who think that Jesus would forgive abortion, drug use, homosexuality and all other manner of evil!”
God will forgive us of these things. I see no reason why Jesus would die on the cross for our sins and then say, “Oh well too bad I went through all that pain, you’re going to hell anyway”
I think that you should read this articlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps
Anyone who would make there children run 10 miles a day and beat them over the head with a farming tool not to mention all the other things he’s done is not someone I respect.
I also have to add that I think that all the rage he has against gays is because he feels guilt that he is gay himself.Also I find it extremely weird that they’re so obsessed with sexuality. “America is a whore,” “ priest rape boys” not to mention the cartoons they draw! Is it just me or is that weird?He has since been arrested for assault, battery, threats, trespassing, disorderly conduct, contempt of court, and several other charges; each time, he (along with Westboro and its other members) has filed suit against the city, the police, and the arresting officers.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps)
(Unfortunately) being a former lawyer (license revoked) and having many children who practice law he finds these little tiny miniscule loopholes and (ab)uses them to his advantage.Personally I think the reason he does it is because he craves attention and even bad attention is still attention.
I think it’s useless to try to reason with or persuade these people through debate by appealing to some sort of global standard of ethics. They consider themselves separatists, part of their own nation with its own standards. If someone intelligent and quick tongued could address them using their very own bible, maybe he could get them to think about their actions. Maybe he could use their language and cut them down from their high horse using biblical references. Pulling someone as cunning as Momma Phelps on a talk show and telling her “you’re so mean” isn’t doing a damn thing.