Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., criticizes fellow Democrats in this commentary for backing down on the USA Patriot Act. Feingold writes: “Some Democrats may be breathing sighs of relief that the president can’t use this issue to paint them as ’soft’ on terrorism. But we’re not doing the party or the country any favors by refusing to challenge an administration that views our freedoms as collateral damage in the war on terrorism. If Democrats aren’t going to stand up to an executive who disdains the other branches of government and doesn’t worry about trampling on the rights of innocent Americans, what do we stand for?”
Posted by Melissa Cooley
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/22
- Regular on Open thread 11/22
- Regular on Open thread 11/22
- Rage on Open thread 11/22
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/22
- Chas on Open thread 11/22
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/22
- Boxlock20 on Open thread 11/22
- satatom on Open thread 11/22
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/22
64 Comments
Good question!!!
Excellent job, Melissa!
What the hell is this!? Haven’t we discussed this to death already? Can’t we get a new friggin topic please!?
Of course, a few personal freedoms are collateral damage in a war against enemies who hide among civilian populations.
Duh.
Grow up, Meliisa. How has it taken so long for you to even manage to formulate this point?
And how much longer will it take for you to recognize the obvious answer?
Not that those freedoms have been curtailed to any noticeable degree. Law abiding citizens will probably never notice anything.
Which is exactly the point.
But, if not, then enumerate for us, Melissa, the long list of precisely those freedoms that the feds have personally prevented you from exercising in the last few years under the Patriot Act. Make sure to provide all the sordid details of your own freedoms that have been so egregiously limited.
Oh, well, ummm, then, can you list just one?
None? That’s what I thought.
Your complaint is nothing but intellectualizing over nothing, a house of cards, a chimera, aother empty and failed effort to bash the Administration. And this comes after the fight is already over.
Geez!
Grow up, Melissa.
The good think about having All my rights is that; if I write something in this blog that you don’t like, you can respond to it by writing back into the blog. But my rights keep you from finding out who I am and where I’m at. My rights are peotected by the constitution and all Political Parties are sworn in to protect them rights not give them away. Take the rights away from the American Citizens and the Terrorists win.
Barb,
Boy, got up on the fascist side of the bed today, now didn’t you?
Whenever someone says ‘innocent people have nothing to worry about’, the bankruptcy of this statement releases me from the need to offer reasoned defenses of my own position that more freedom is better.
Why is this so hard for you to understand, Barb? More freedom is good. Less freedom is worse. And when someone insists that your freedom is being sacrificed for your safety, that it’s being done for your own good, and that you aren’t entitled to know the details, they should be hit with a chair.
Barb,you are a moron. One does not give up personal freedoms, and expect to get them back. Once gone, they are gone forever. It took the founding fathers, and the people of this nation, many years and many brave peoples’ deaths to gain those freedoms. It took one act by one group of maniacs to set up one lousy administration to dump them down the sewer.
Whether or not you or I are directly affected by this loss is immaterial. The fact they are gone is reason enough to question the validity of this administrations rights to take them away, war or no war.
Our freedoms are erroding away, not because of Democrats or Republicans, it’s because our nation is slowly becoming more of a socalist nation. This is because of the people.
People are gladly giving up their own responsiblity so the government can take care of them like a kept pet.
Freedom is not easy to live with or easy to keep. Freedom take enormous amount of personal responsibility, courage, individuality, and self relience.
We all say we want freedom or enjoy freedom, but we are all giving it up so we can stay dump, fat, and happy.
Socialism is the reason our freedoms are erroding. Although Democrats lean more towards socalism, Republicans have their share as well.
I wish it can change, but I seriously doubt it. Too many people want the government to take care of them, and it is the easy way out. So we will continue to have our freedoms taken away more in more.
Wiretapping by the President is a mute point and doesn’t even come close to abridging freedom in anyway. This is a political issue only.
National health care, prescription drug plan, Social Security, taxes in every aspect of our lives, being politically correct, having the government teach and raise our children. These are the things that are taking away our freedom, but hardly anybody notices it.
Dear Barb,
Welcome to the club! It’s a pretty exclusive club on this BLOG, all you have to do to join is exhibit a little common sense and love your country.
Anything you post that isn’t lockstep with the DNC wekly talking points labels you as a moron and a facist.
Hank
PS Good post by the way!
…and the dems pussy out again! They get these guys on the ropes and them let ‘em go. Wassa matter dems, too hard for ya to keep a position for more than one news cycle?
Hey ksfarmgrrl,
Do you have any stock? Or do you just farm?
Wondering,
Hank
ksfarmgrrl,
Huh huh, huh huh. You said ‘pussy.’ Huh huh, huh huh.
But on a decidedly unfunny note, you are of course correct: the DC Dems decided to cement their weakness and lack of vision. For what it’s worth, I think the Democratic Party may be entering a self-inflicted death spiral.
Pretty funny to see grinning fascists (there is an ’s’ in ‘fasicst’, by the way, Hank) like Hank talking about anyone else walking in ‘lockstep’. And then there’s Joe Williams with his ‘mute point.’
The unintentional humor here is kilin’ me, I tell you what…
Hank, I have cattle in the summer, a herd of cats all year round, and a very big hole everywhere that my dog used to be. :( And a bigger hole where my mom used to be :( :(
I have had hogs before, (which explains why I have none now) and I am fixin’ to get chickens this summer. I also raise wheat and have an organic veggie business. This is my downtime. You can look forward to me being absent this spring and summer:)
Farm Gal,I tried raising chickens- it’s a real fast way to become a vegetarian!
What good is your personal freedoms if you are dead…killed by terrorists?
JOEHow can you say this has become a “socalist nation” ?Bushytail wants to privetize social securty.He has already privetized the medical mess.He has privetized Airport security.He has sold our ship yard security to his Saudi buddies.Many government functions have been privetized.Maybe you don’t know what a “socalist nation” is. I will try to explain, listen carefully, a “socalist nation” is when a government owns and has full control of all forms of business in a nation.This nation is a hybrid. It is some socalist, some capitalist and sense Bushytail has taken over a lot Fascist.If you would like for me to define Fascist just let me know and I will be glad to do so.
Ann,If you’re so willing to give up your personal freedoms for a bit of security, maybe you’re better off dead. Then you’d be perfectly safe!
Mute point, thanks for pointing that out, CF. We’d all be better off if Joe W. made more mute points.
He writes–”Too many people want the government to take care of them, and it is the easy way out. So we will continue to have our freedoms taken away more in more. (sic)”
Joe, have you ever heard of the “social contract”? That’s the idea that citizens get together and work together through gov’t for mutual benefit.
For instance, we could dispense with the police department and rely on private security firms. But then only people who can afford security get security. It would become a system of warlord-ism, the man with the biggest army runs his personal fifedom.
We’ve had a test of your system, Joe. It was called “feudalism.” What is called by you reactionaries as “freedom” is really the freedom of the rich and powerful to keep everybody else in economic servitude.
I’ve been watching the specials this month on Black History. After the slaves were de jure “freed,” they were thrust right back into bondage in a de facto slave system–called sharecropping.
They didn’t become small landowners in a land-distribution scheme as the gov’t promised (40 acres and a mule). They were kept in the role that business interests wanted them in–economic serfs servicing their feudal lords, wealthy corporate interests, the cotton economy, the mill owners, the exporters.
That’s what you want our society to have the freedom to become again, Joe. The freedom of the rich, powerful, and connected–the PLAYERS (see Garret Keizer’s excellent Feb. Harper’s article, “The Crap Shoot”)–to profit off of everybody else.
Joe’s version of “phony populism”:
“People are gladly giving up their own responsiblity so the government can take care of them like a kept pet.”
See this Op/Ed for an interesting take on the Bush, et al. “phony populism”. It is amazing that they can still get the strategy to work. Maybe the 39% job approval rating suggests it is NOT working, but this is an adminstration that does not change plans when their (or, should I say “our”) vehicle is speeding off of a cliff.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/16/AR2006021601554.html
Ann–what good is life if you have no freedom?
“socalist nation” is when a government owns and has full control of all forms of business in a nation.
No, that nation you are describing is a Communist nation.A socialist nation has a combination of privatized businesses as well as government controlled businesses / services. e.g. Britain, France, etc.
Social Security privatization, although a good thing, hasn’t happen and most likely won’t.
Perscription Drug Plan mess is not privatize. It is funded by taxpayers. Yes! They have to buy the drugs from private companies, because at this point of time, it is pharma corporations that make drugs and not government, yet.
Government forces pharmacies to sell drugs they don’t want to sell, such as the morning after pill and Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart doesn’t want to sell it because it’s not profitable, but the government in several states forces Wal-Mart to stock it.
Airport Security was once privatize, but now is on the government payroll and unionized. It’s called the Transportation Security Administration. I’ll even give you a website. http://www.tsa.gov/public/
If you haven’t been to the airport since 2001, they are the people in the white badge uniforms. You know… TSA or better known as Ten Thousand Standing Around. It’s a freakin joke jobs program for people who shouldn’t be in the position in the first place. We are now worse off than when it was private.
Selling ship yards, is the ship yards business. Just like Carter giving away the Panama Canal back to Panama, who turned around and sold it to the Red Chinese Army.
Many government functions have been privatize? Give me an example, because government growth and employment has been increasing faster than population, inflation, and economic growth figures.
Did you know that in many states that more people work for the government than private industry? Did you know the government is the largest employer in the United States? Did you know that in many states, they recieve more government aid than they pay, making them a net reciepent of tax money and Kansas is one of them?
Fascist government is when the government controls the means of production. and Controls all all aspects of society. Notice I didn’t say own… When the government owns or nationalizes the means of production, that is communism. Fascisim is the control, but private industry still owns, but doesn’t have much control. Hilter’s Germany, Mussolini’s Italy, Lestist Insurgents around the world, you should know.
The Bush Administration is trying to do the right thing by steering us away from Socalism, but he doesn’t get much out of it. Still no reform and government gets bigger.
Yeah! “A guy from up north” don’t even try to go over on me, you can’t win. I possess political knowledge. Fascisim is not coming out of the Bush Administration. Only the leftist Democrats do or what is now known as neo-liberalism. Trust me! All you have to do is look up the definition in a dictionary.
Actually! I’ll save you the trouble.
Fascism: is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic. Fascism exalts the nation, state, or race as superior to the individuals, institutions, or groups composing it.
Leftist Liberals believe they are superior in thought and belief. That is a fascist trait. That is why they don’t compromise (a basic democratic trait).
Just look into yourself and the anger you have. You would like to see Bush dead and all the Republicans out of office. That is fascit thought.
Good point, Cruz. I’d much rather live in a real democracy like, say, American Samoa, Liberia, or NOW Iraq, than live where creeping socialism is taking over, England, France and the rest of Europe.
You can clearly see that the quality of life is much higher where government lets free-enterprise do whatever it wants. (heavy sarcasm)
Ann, does the phrase “give me liberty or give me death” ring a bell?
Joe wrote–”Leftist Liberals believe they are superior in thought and belief.”
And what? Rightest reactionaries believe they are INFERIOR in thought and belief?
I think every person who holds a belief feels that believe is superior to competing beliefs.
It’s that appeal to phony populism again. Dick Cheney’s a man of the people because he goes hunting. Never mind that he goes with a huge Republican donor, that he carries a foreign designer shotgun, shoots penned and released quail at the manor house of his fellow Texas aristocracy, and made 36 million dollars his last year as head of Halliburton.
No, Dead Eye Dick is no elitist. He’s just an ordinary big Washington insider.
lol pl, and dead eye dick made fun of john kerry when he went hunting.
“Don’t tread on me”Ann,I think you should spend some time in “Live free or die!” Massachusetts.
Hmmm . . . isn’t New Hampshire the Live Free or Die state?
Funny how so many of those “Patriot” ideas seemed to originate in blue states.
An essay question. Compare and contrast Joe’s phony populism with that of GW’s.
“Take, first, the case that received little attention. Campaigning at the Ohio headquarters of the Wendy’s fast-food chain for his proposal to expand health savings accounts, President Bush dismissed critics who contend that the accounts “are not a solution for the uninsured, they’re regressive, they favor the wealthy.”
“That was an accurate enough description of the opponents’ criticisms, but then came this zinger: “It’s kind of basically saying, if you’re not making a lot of money you can’t make decisions for yourself. That’s kind of a Washington attitude, isn’t it — we’ll decide for you, you can’t figure it out yourself. I think a lot of folks here at Wendy’s would argue that point of view is just simply backwards and not true.”
“But opponents of Bush’s plan are not “kind of basically saying” anything of the sort. They want people “not making a lot of money” to have a chance to buy affordable health insurance. They are arguing that HSAs, as the accounts are known, would offer a lot of money to the most well-off among our fellow citizens without increasing health coverage. Indeed, there is good evidence, mustered this week by the liberal Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, that HSAs would instead lead to a net increase in the number of uninsured.”
Thomas Frank said that the politician with the best populist message always wins the election. The Repub’s have had the best populist message, but what they did not tell you was that it was all BullShit. People may be figuring that out for themselves, now. We can only hope Joe comes to the party some time soon.
Its also funny how many red states like Montana and Kansas have higher tax rates than say Mass. or Conn. very blue states
Pancho, ya think that is because people are fleeing states like Kansas and leaving the fixed costs for the remaining few to pay?
Oh yeah! my bad. NH is the live free or die state. Sorry, hadnt had my coffee yet.
ksfarmgrrl- Good point. I’m an Independent, but I can’t help wondering who founded this country. I don’t see George “I don’t have to finish my Air National Guard duty” or Deferement-Boy Cheney ,or their ilk, having the backbone. Is that something I can say openly in Kansas?
Joejust posting a lot of words doesn’t mean you know what you are talking about. Your defination of fascisim discribes the Bushytail administration exactly.You are not even very good at analyzing my thoughts. When I am angry you will know about it.Have a good day!
gster,Ha! You just made Phil Kline’s Morality Police hitlist, buddy! You better watch your ass, man! Ya might get beat up on some back-water country road somewhere!
X—Back-water country road my butt- I’m staying off Douglas- The Thought-Police might be on the scent.
*YAWN*
While you are still arguing over the Patriot Act, our law enforcement will be using it to continue their pursuit of terrorists and criminals.
“I have to say, things would be a lot easier if I were a dictator.”
“If you are not with us, you’re against us”
“I’m a war president. See I go to work every day with war on my mind.”
Now forget everything else bush has said or done. Those 3 quotes alone speak to us of the mindset of a man that I would really rather not have “defend” me. Seems to me like a case of weighing the “threat” vs. what we might lose.
See? An angry Arab 7,000 miles away doesn’t feel like too big a scare. There are certainly more effective methods to “keep me safe” than listening to my phone calls or worrying over what I read. Some of those ideas are mentioned above. Thing is? most of the people posting them are well……not with the bush “us” group.
So how about this; I for one hereby absolve bush of any and all responsibilty to “protect” me from angry Arabs on the other side of the planet. In return for absolving bush of this “responsibility” (there is another word you can twist to suit your needs) I ask that he divest himself of collecting information on me or restricting any of my freedoms unless and until he has legally defined proper cause to do so.
Wow……I sound like a “conservative”! Given some of the other twist of that word, excuse me, I gotta go shower.
“You’re either with us, or against us”Classic logical fallacy. Can anyone here name that fallacy ladies and gentlemen of the WE blog??
CrusaderX,
Bifurcation. It’s the go-to fallacy for BushCo.
damn that was fast! Good job CF.
Gee JR,
When you take qoutes out of context and add them together, I suppose you could make them mean almost anything you want…
CrusaderX,
The rapid response was purely an accident of timing. Won’t happen again.
Nothing like nine years of graduate school in Philosophy–or, for that matter, six years of BushCo–to acquaint one with informal fallacies.
LOL!CF,You certainly don’t fit the portrait of the “stupid enemy liberal” SOME people around here paint you guys as being. Consequently many right wingers consistently fall into this trap.
So let me get this straight: Nathan, who elsewhere rejects assertions as true unless they measure up to the most literal standard, suddenly wants to enforce the standard by which statements must be understood against the backdrop of an interpretive context?
Seriously, Nathan: do you have ANY intellectual scruples, at all?
If you Wingnuts are going to criticize me for posting under a pseudonym (which I don’t: I post under my initials), it’s only fair to point out that your lack of argumentative consistency borders on intellectual dishonesty.
CrusaderX,
Thanks for the props! But despite the academic credentials, I reserve my right to be foul and stupid.
Nine years of graduate school in philosophy? No wonder you’re so goofed up CF! Anyone would be.
Have you settled on one yet?
CF,Being foul and stupid is what got the Democrats where they are today. How about being smart and classy? How about doing the smart thing and standing up for the principles of change? How about being smart and finding the woman (I’ll do) who can run this country the way it should be run: by the people, of the people and for the people? Hell, boy, me and kfg could straighten out the minimalist pointers running the country in a new york minute. She can have the senate, I’ll take the house (more chance to turn boys into men).
“They are arguing that HSAs, as the accounts are known, would offer a lot of money to the most well-off among our fellow citizens without increasing health coverage. Indeed, there is good evidence, mustered this week by the liberal Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, that HSAs would instead lead to a net increase in the number of uninsured.”
The figure I heard today was an additional 600,000 would be added to the rolls of the uninsured by way of the president’s plan. Putting a positive spin on it, this would be a minor f*ck up by Bush standards. No?
Somehow I just can’t bring myself to trust an Administration that either lied, or was so incompetent that they had to go through permutations to justify an unilateral invasion on a country that hadn’t attacked us. And, an Admin. that would ruin the career of a civil servant (Valerie Plame), to discredit a political adversary. Actually, I wouldn’t want any Administration to put themselves above the constitutional check and balances, and basically say I’ll do what I want until this nebulous WOT is over.
I’m still waiting to hear just one freedom that the Patriot Act has wrestled from you all.
I gave you this challenge way up at the top of this topic. But all I’ve seen is irrelevant flack and puffery from the usual suspects – really banal comments like “More freedom is good. Less freedom is worse.”
How many years of college gave us that stunning insight?
Come on, brainiacs. Just one personal example of something you can no longer do or say or write.
Just one.
“Come on, brainiacs. Just one personal example of something you can no longer do or say or write.
“Just one.
Posted by: Barb | February 17, 2006 at 09:16 PM”
Check out this babe’s web/blog/site. Winning her back from the dark side does not seem like a good bet to me.
Barb,
Considering your equaly banal argument that safety trumps freedom, a simplistic argument was all that was deserved. Tellingly, you offer no refutation.
If only I could be half as banal as your garden-variety Right-Wing apologetics.
Anyway, in response to your having set the bar so low with ‘just one’ freedom that’s been taken away, here’s a little nugget hidden in the new Patriot Act: a new United State Uniformed Police Force, empowered to act on its own perogatives outside of the Bill of Rights, in response to undetermined threats that are posed during ’special events of national significance.’
http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts142.html
The obvious purpose is to criminalize protests at public events featuring President Bush or Vice-President Cheney. The further-reaching consequences? Who knows? Read the text, Barb.
I rest my case: the Patriot Act takes away our Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms. You lose, Barb.
Barb–
Not having read the entirety of the Patriot Act, I can’t say exactly that this ties in, but it’s damn close, isn’t it?
http://newsblaze.com/story/20060217114414nnnn.nb/newsbl...
Republican Sues Bush, Cheney, NSA, TSA for Illegal Surveillance, Wiretapping
Scott Tooley, a Republican, and former Congressional aide and law school graduate, educated at renowned Christian universities, has filed suit against the President, Vice President and relevant federal agencies for their illegal surveillance programs.
According to the complaint, the Bush-Cheney Administration initiated numerous illegal and perpetual surveillance methods on Mr. Tooley and his family after he was incorrectly placed on the TSA’s “selectee” or watch list.
Mr. Tooley’s case is unique because the suit alleges the Bush Administration has used additional illegal surveillance methods on him in addition to the illegal wiretapping. Mr. Tooley is also the first Republican to file suit with regard to the Bush Administration’s surveillance programs.
…
The complaint was filed today in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia on Friday, February 17, 2006. Mr. Tooley is represented by Larry Klayman, former Chairman of Judicial Watch and former U.S. Senate candidate from Florida. Mr. Klayman is now in private practice in Miami and Washington, D.C.
*****
Of course, now Barb will argue that unconstitutional wiretapping by the federal government doesn’t “hurt anybody.”
Strange how she’s wiser than the framers of the Constitution . . .
ProudLib,
Framers of the Constitution? Don’t you mean ‘that goddamned piece of paper’?
First off my guess is that “Barb” is Nathan/Hank/Nathan or hanks illegitimate niece or whatever.
But that’s just me.
Ok “nathan” (my sons name is nathan and so I’m helped out here, sort of posting to a child) Nathan? what did I take out of context? I was assessing a man by things he had said.
Ok so the scared bushy right wants stories. Got 2 for ya.
My last job. Worked there 14 years….aircraft related. In 2003 I was required to produce proof that I was American born. Don’t getme wrong this could be a good thing as applied to illegal workers. But I was obviously white……..and had worked there 12 years.
Story 2. I fish. Now I can’t fish the damn at Cheney (unfortunate name that) Reservoir anymore during the walleye spawn cause I might be a TERRORIST! Further? I wanted maps of the terrain under the lake so I went to the library. But to get them in a bush America I need to sign my name on a watch list. Now I guess I gotta trust the leader that my knowledge of the drop offs and flats in the lake could be somehow dangerous. So I didn’t sign the list, or get the maps. Perhaps as many as 5 or 6 walleye were saved!
Tired-ass topic.
Well, go figure; Barb was called out and hasn’t responded. Just like Nathan.
That makes both of them TROLLS. I know this comes as a great shock to you all.
JR, if you like fishing, you should come to cedar bluff and fish for bass.
…but you better hurry JR. Between Sebelius and her democract cronies in hays, there wont be any water in cedar bluff for very long. We could walk out there and pick up fish in two years.
CF,
Wow CF. I don’t respond to every post when you say jump and now I am a troll?
LOL
Whatever makes you think you actually know what you are talking about…
So if I order some tiger poop, by email or phone, from overseas, somebody from bushco is gonna monitor that call? Cool
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060217/od_nm/australia_poo1_dc
I’ll be a potential terrorist organic farmer using tiger poop for some nefarious purpose. Does anyone else see how many false leads they must have to run down?
Well I do have a boat. But the situation as you described in Western ks. and my limited bass fishing experience…….tell me more about Cedar Bluff. Before it dries up or closes cause of no park support.
I note that none of my PERSONAL liberties denied by the “Patriot act” were addressed by the right.
I liked the non sequitir comic today. Little Danae gets a call from a telemarketer. Before they get into their spiel Danae shouts ” I don’t want to join your terrorist cell Mr Al KAY DUH!” and then hangs up……later she watches news reports of the telemarketer being raided by homeland security!
Clearly, the Dems have failed us and we are gonna get stuck with this “patriot act”. So let’s use greater force against itself! I think that when the “scare” mentality begins to affect commerce, well that scare mentality might not be so ecouraged.
All I got from you CF was a hypothetical reading of a bill and a bunch of condescending arrogance.
JR went off in a couple of directions. He refused to merely sign for some information associated with a dammed lake and thereby limited himself. Poor JR.
I am glad that people casing areas around a dam should be willing to say who they are. And JR needs to get the chip off his shoulder about being asked to prove his citizenship. Welcome to Aerospace, JR.
None of you have given me a hard example of a case where the Patriot Act has actually stopped you from exercising a freedom.
Your examples don’t count. If you have to stretch that hard, your whole case is lousy.
Not one real example. Just whining.
Typical leftist whining.
Nathan…”None of you have given me a hard example of a case where the Patriot Act has actually stopped you from exercising a freedom.
Your examples don’t count. If you have to stretch that hard, your whole case is lousy.”
If that isnt nathan then I am not kfg. That post is a better identifier than your fingerprints little boy. You always ask for an example, even when one has already been given. You also pre-judge everyone in that before they post, you already know they are wrong and why. Carnak the great?
Nathan, your hysterically funny lack of logic is showing. Loose the barb name. You are showing your ass, and we recognize it!!
You are right JR, the multiple personality posters are the right wingnuts. Trying to make it look like there are more of them…ROFLMAO.