Congressional Democrats may be coming together around a plan to begin pulling troops from Iraq and redeploying them to other parts of the region — where they could be called upon to respond to emergencies in Iraq but also fight terror elsewhere.
The Boston Globe reported that many leading Democrats say the plan “represents an answer to Republicans’ oft-repeated charge that Democrats aren’t offering a way forward on Iraq — and to do so in a way that is neither defeatist nor blindly loyal to the president.”
Posted by Melissa Cooley
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50 Comments
Good Luck! Last I check, the Democrats are in the minority.
Joe,I think you missed the point. The democrats have not yet found a position on Iraq that they can all support. This one may come close to allowing that.
The best thing about this plan is that it directly challenges the false dichotomy that Bush has sold: we must stay the course or we are cutting and running. No one has seen the details, but this may be the compromise that is needed. If it makes sense, I’ll bet that Repubs will go flocking to it too. Even they know that the first step in getting out of a hole is to stop digging.
DD, trying to discuss anything higher level than Dr. Seuss is like trying to discuss quantum physics with a second grader. Prior to this thread he was one of the people saying the Democrats didn’t present any plans for solving any problems. Now he has run out of republikan BS to vomit so he says what Democrats have said all along. We are in the minority, we can’t do anything unless some of the moderate republikans switch sides and they aren’t going to because of the backlash.
Joe, this is what we have been saying for 5 years now. You’re just now catching on? Damn.
k,Agree with most of what you said above, but I believe the “backlash” is lessening every day with Lame-Duck Bush. There are enough scandals, indictments, etc. (and hopefully more on the way) which will keep him busy spinning about those things, rather than doing much else. And maybe the country can be safer and adopt a saner foreign policy as a result.
Again? What is new with Democrats? Why they are in the minority? Why can they not form a unifed plan of their own?
Oh! I forgot. They don’t have the capability of doing so. A bunch of inheritance elitist acting like fools.
I almost feel sorry for Democrats. I really almost do.
The “backlash” ROFLMAO!
Good luck!
k
I have no idea who you are and I have not listen to you or known you in a five year time span.
Check your semantics.
A good place to start is Dr. Seuss books. That is where I learned everything. But beware! Reading Dr. Seuss books can turn you into a Republican.
So if you want to stay a Democrat, you know the a group of socialist ideologues, you have to remain an idiot. It’s a requirement. I mean, they don’t have a plan for anything.
You been saying it for five years. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Democrats fit that bill.
LOL! You guys amuse me. This is a blast. Keep it up.
DD, I believe you miss a very important aspect, the general ignorance of republicans. While I do not have any numbers drawn from polls other than shrubs approval rating, most of the repuks I work with and read online honestly believe the media and press are left biased and blowing things way out of proportion and nothing is really as bad as they say. As a matter of fact have you listened to any conservative talk radio? (I only have the basic TV channels so I don’t watch them.) While I would not force it upon anyone, even people I hate, listen to Rush or Faux Talk Radio (on XM). All of their talking points are meaningless things for example: most Americans put in more hours and accomplish less at work because of technology. That was the topic on a Faux show a couple of days ago. Pathetic. But smart. All of these conservative nut jobs listen to these people and ignore anything meaningful.
As long as shrub has both houses of Congress in his pocket he is safe and no one will be able to touch him. Anything the Democrats try to do will be ineffectual because the repuks will shut then down immediately and without discussion.
I guess the majority of people are ignorance.
Have you listen to conservative talk radio? How about this:
Have you listen to leftist radio? Air America, the dismal failure and money pit. The people are speaking K, and they reject your views.
Maybe you should listen. Maybe you will understand that you are nothing but a programmed leftwing nutjob.
I may not be conservative, but I’m sure not a leftist socalist.
Live the pipe dream brother. In fact! Take another hit of this here blunt. Make you feel better!
“I guess the majority of people are ignorance.” – Kinda speaks volumes eh Joe?
And yes, I do listen to Air America. I find the hosts are far more intelligent and talk about more important items than what technology is doing to paper pushers.
“…programed leftwing nutjob.” -hmmm…let me see. Worst case scenario this is the pot calling the kettle black. But not really. While you spew right wing propaganda and babble meaninglessly, I prefer to think about the issues and their effects, look at the facts and then make up my mind. Do I side with the Democrats/liberals all of the time, no. They do some things I don’t agree with. But they don’t try to screw up the country and tell me everything will be fine as soon as they remove those blasted liberal constitutional rights.
You may not be conservative and I’m quite sure you aren’t liberal. But before you think about bashing Democrats and liberal ideas answer this. Have you or any member of your family ever recieved any state or federal assistance? Medicare, Medicade, unemployment, food stamps, or benefits from the program to help parents with purchasing formula etc. for babies (I never remember the name of it)? You, your parents, brothers or sisters? You shouldn’t knock socialist ideas, they have been part of our country for nearly 100 years. And they have kept a lot of people clothed, sheltered, and fed during that time. Why even your talking points producer Rush even collected benefits at one time when he was down on his luck. And no fat, two-faced, drug addicted jackass kicked him when he was down.
And finally I don’t need a blunt to make the pain go away, I just avoid uneducated conservatives (sorry for the oxymoron).
I don’t think the Dems are saints but given that there is no good way out of Iraq it’s harder to fault them for not having a viable plan.
Can anyone here put a viable plan on the table?
The real problem is the clown who went there for trumped up reasons and who keeps saying “Stay the course” while preparing to cut and run.
Dean was right – there is no longer a winning strategy. Just watch how 130,000 troops try to gracefully exit a country over the next few months, that is populated by factions that will blow up a couple mosques whenever the fire seems to go out. This place is totally no win.
Looking at the recent near civil war erupting over there now you will not hear anyone saying we need more troops.
The only winning strategy is no longer on the table.
The troops are just gonna keep their heads downand stay on their bases because noone wants any escalation of American deaths.
Of course that doesn’t fix the Iraqi security problems.
Bush broke it now he owns it.
As to conservative vs progressive talk radio – they both suck. I can’t stand to listen to either side. But with right wing talk radio steering the weak minded for so many years the left has to counter cuz the trogs on both sides vote.
What you believe is right (leftisim) and what I believe is right (Libertariansim) there is not conviencing each other to switch sides.
It has nothing to do with being ignorant, uneducated, or unintelligence, but more of what the product of your enviroment has taught you.
Peer groups and parents are the largest factor in developing an individuals steadfast belief in their political ideology.
You honestly believe I’m just an ignorant fool and doesn’t know what he is talking about, just because I don’t subscribe to what you believe is the best direction society should take.
Go ahead! I don’t mind. But just remember! I will be working ademently against the leftist agenda. I don’t think your stupid, uneducated, or misguided. I just believe the leftisim is not the best system of political governance. It has failed to many times.
I know we live in a socialist government system and I accept the fact that some form of it is neccesary, but a proliferation of it to the extreme left is a very bad idea.
Sometimes I poke fun at you guys. It’s all good times. I believe that we get carried away with the name calling. Maybe we should tone it down and make it more civil. I’ll do my best to do that.
But I’m no armchair, bomb throwing, political observer either. What do you think I’m going up after 2:00am? It’s not that I just got home from drinking at the bars like some people here. I’m doing my research and studying. I also posess a degree in Political Science, so I’m no dummy when it comes to politics. Strongly opinioned, yes, but not uneducated.
Don’t take his TV program as an indication of his radio program but Jerry Springer has a really good radio program. He is suprisingly a very intelligent person (giving his TV reputation) with some very good arguments. Mark Reily is also another good host. They have some very intelligent people, they have some far left wingnuts. All you have to do is pick and choose who you want to listen to (like any other broadcast medium).
But one thing that is very suprising is that if you call up with an opposing view (at least with most of the hosts I have listened to) will put you to the front of the call que because they want to talk to those people. Lets see Rush or O’Reily do that.
Very well. What do you consider as “…a proliferation of it to the extreme left…”? Do you see the Patriot Act as good, bad, or indifferent? How about the government trying to limit the extent of the rights guaranteed by the US Constitution?
I don’t even know what station and time on the radio that some people on Air America is on.
Alan Colmes is on early in the morning (delayed broadcast I believe). I’ve listen to him when I’ve been up and driving early. He is pretty cool because he talks about things beyond politics.
Rush I occasionally listen to before NPR comes back on at 12:00pm. Rush is ok, but gets old.
Neal Boortz is my favorite. We have the same line of thinking. Glenn Beck is another favorite, but I like him for the comedy factor. He dips in politics, but not too much. He just got himself a gig on CNN, so I think I’ll be checking CNN out again.
But for the most part. I listen to NPR basically all the time or books on tape.
I don’t have Satellite Radio.
What rights is the government trying to limit?
The Patriot Act for the most part I believe was a good thing. Especially the communication factor between departments and agencies.
But some provisions I have problems with.
Section 204: FISA pen register/trap and trace exceptions
Section 209: Seizure of voicemail messages pursuant to warrants
Section 225: Provider immunity for FISA wiretap assistance
And Government access to library records I’m still up in the air about. I think it maybe a stretch, but they pulled that out of the Patriot Act. But for the sake of aurgument, it’s probably a bad thing.
What guys like joe forget is that BUSHCO broke it, not the dems.
The original plan from Howard Dean was “dont go into iraq”. Since that was ignored, now you expect his party to fix the mess? You mean you are actually ready to listen to Howard now?
Lots of good articles in the real blogosphere about how the r’s are already setting up the “liberals” and the “liberal media” to blame for losing the war. You know, it is our fault for pointing out the lies that led us to war.
It is our fault for questioning and not drinking the neocon koolaide. And never mind of course that the “liberal” media stumbled over each other in the rush to get the blood lust whipped up on behalf of bushco’s war.
You all bought his lies. Bushco broke iraq and now the u.s owns it. Of course it is now up to us to fix it. We have cleaned up neocon messes before, and we will again.
We will be left to clean it up, never mind the fact that now, thanks to our failed war and failed policy, there is no GOOD strategy left. Only bad ones. I think the real question is, what is the GOP plan for fixing this mess?
Dont worry, go back to listening to fox and rush. We will fix it for you as always.
I know it is really hard for some of you to read the numbers, since “the stars might lie but the numbers never do”.
Wanna see how the public supports this war? Read ‘em and weep.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/2006-02-13-poll.htm
Ya know, before we could implement any plan the dems might come up with, there has to be some admission that what bushco is doing isnt working.
Their ONLY plan is “stay the course”. Always has been always will be.
It sure is clear now that what the critics said before the war is true. There is no contingency plan just in case rummy and dead eye dick were wrong about us being greeted with flowers, greeted as liberators.
There was and is no back up plan for their miscalculation that the war would be six days or six months, but certainly not longer.
They have no alternative for the war costing 200 times the $1.7 billion this administration predicted.
And now you want the dems to fix it? BWHAHAHAHAHAHA
So….WE editors. When are we gonna get a thread about how many things Howard Dean was right about?
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/02/prepare-noose-for-bill-buckley.html
Even a hard core con like Bill Buckley now agrees with Howard Dean. Do you dare to read it?
I dont know why I post links since the koolaide crowd wont read anything that makes them uncomfortable. But hope springs eternal so I post the links anyway.
Joe,
Are you sure you graduated from WSU. If you really did, I bet they hang their head in shame whenever they read your writing. Your are the most troubling anti-ad for WSU since the pathetic writing of Dennis Rader. Being fair, your writing is a little more intelligible than his.
Please learn about present/past tense, plural word forms — you know basic high school English.
This next has got to be your low point.
“It has nothing to do with being ignorant, uneducated, or unintelligence, but more of what the product of your enviroment has taught you.”
The above is frighteningly close to word salad gibberish! I know what you are trying to say. I am not criticizing the content of what you say – because I know there is no hope that you will think anything through for yourself. But, please learn to express yourself in a coherent way. Please.
Joe W.–”What do you think I’m going up after 2:00am? I’m doing my research and studying.”
If you call viewing internet porn sites “studying,” then Joe Williams has a PhD . . .
Get a life, loser.
k,I think where we fundamentally disagree is that I think there are reasonable moderate Repubs who would love to have alternatives to the false dichotomies that Bush et al. peddle.
He is a liability to the GOP and the negative reaction amongst Repubs because the port news really surprised the White House. That was just an indication of how out of touch Bush and company are.
His presidency is over, he controls nothing, him committing suicide would be an act of redundancy. So, to repeat the message of Joe W., Bush keep doing what you’re (notice, Joe, it is not “your”) doing. It is still possible to set the all time low of approval ratings that will never be bested (or worsted).
I guess when Joe W. was doing his “research,” he forgot to check out the real success of Air America–
“(Clear Channel’s) first sally leftward came in March, when KPOJ-AM, in Portland, Oregon, became the first Clear Channel outfit to embrace Air America. Portland is a famously left-leaning town, and the experiment was a success: Among listeners aged 25 to 64, the station’s ratings jumped from number 26 to number 3. Managers of other outlets around the country noticed this success, and decided to imitate it: Soon such lefty strongholds as Ann Arbor, Michigan, and Madison, Wisconsin, were hearing Al Franken and company on Clear Channel-owned affiliates too. Meanwhile, outside the Air America orbit, Clear Channel gave Jesse Jackson a weekly syndicated show called Keep Hope Alive, currently airing on about a dozen stations around the country.”
http://www.reason.com/links/links090704.shtml
This article shows that while Rush Limbaugh’s number of listerners are far higher than Air America’s overall, AA is growing while Rush is falling.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/31/8236/6911
Also, in many big markets like New York, Al Franken draws more listeners than Rush Limbaugh.
*****
But your no-facts assertion (e.g. making sh*t up) goes right along with saying that Martin Luther King was “no leftist-liberal” when he was the very epitome of it.
ProudLib. You little hateful imp. All of you guys are. That’s fine.
Actually Air America is losing listenership in NYC.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/1/26/220439.shtml
Philadelphia dropped them completely.
Although they have been gaining in popularity in certain markets and increasing their market share, they are still in the whole money wise.
They have to pay radio stations to put their program on air. They have not got to the point that they can be funded through advertisement alone. So they seek to ask for millions of dollars fromt their listeners.
While they beg for donations, Al Franklin continues to exploit the radio station and demands more money each year or he would leave the network.
Other than that. Believe it or not, I hope it becomes very successful and pulls in large audience and therefore be financally stable and self sufficent. I hope more people support Air America.
Again! I’m not aware of Air America in the Kansas Radio Market.
Good luck leftist. I wish you success.
Oh. Sorry for some of my errors in my post (spelling and grammer).
I often times don’t re-read what I type before I post. But after re-reading, I’m aware of some mistakes.
That’s for you Darwin’sDisciple.
You forgot a space between s and D. I guess you skipped plenty of English Classes in High School.
Come on! Grow up man.
I’d like to see people around here lay off Joe W. I’m saying “don’t ever disagree with Joe,” I’m saying let’s cut out the personal attacks.
I’ve long suspected that Joe may be dyslexic, based on his writing, but even if it’s just poor spelling, syntax, and/or grammar then it’s no reason to not listen to Joe (like I should talk about grammar, etc.).
Joe has pointed out that the strongest factor(s) in an American’s political outlook are the opinions of that American’s parents. I’d hazard a totally not-my-business guess and say that Joe was raised in a virulently anti-Democrat, strong Repubican family. I’d bet a dollar to a donut that one or both of Joe’s parents were extremely conservative.
If Joe now professes he’s Libertarian, isn’t that “progress” by how Democrats define it?
Not only that, but Joe has some great insights, imo.
I think that if the WE would invest in a better .php code, an updated blog format that allows for edits, quotes, emoticons, topics and forums, etc., then Joe would appear to be a much clearer thinker (we all would, and I know it would help me a lot).
Keep it up, Joe. I may not always agree with you, but I always read your posts and I respect your point of view.
$0.02
“I think where we fundamentally disagree is that I think there are reasonable moderate Repubs who would love to have alternatives to the false dichotomies that Bush et al. peddle.” – DD
I hope you’re right. I wish I could be as optimistic as you.
Should be ‘I’m *not* saying “don’t ever disagree with Joe,” I’m saying let’s cut out the personal attacks.’
crap
You make some interesting remarks in your 2:55 post Joe, some of which I actually agree with. What I was more interested in with reguard to my post you responded to was what do you consider to be “…a proliferation of it to the extreme left…” and why it would be bad.
I am taking the pledge to swear off berating Joe. It kinda feels like kicking a dog – not a thing you can be proud of. I am not perfect in my grammer, etc., but his would have to be improved with some reasonable editing.
Please preview, Joe. We’ll all appreciate it.
Wow, I don’t even remember the last time I heard anybody called an “imp”.
“ProudLib. You little hateful imp. All of you guys are.”
“Hateful” is what people are who ask Joe W. to support his made up crap.
Back to the original thread.Democrats DO agree on Iraq. (1) It was a shitty idea.(2) We need to support our troops by getting them out of harm’s way.(3) Being in Iraq serves no purpose (unless you’re Haliburton or an oil company).(4) We were lied to repeatedly about the reasons for going to war.
Do I hear any dissagreement from any Democrats?
See, we do agree on Iraq.
We’re not supposed to berate Joe after he called us “little hateful imps”? While it was a stupid insult, I’m sure he meant it in a most horrible way. Kind of like his super-ephit, “go back to your cigarettes and booze”. Wow, I’m agast, agast I tell you!
Maybe the question should be “can republicans agree on iraq” Check out this little exchange on fox news.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/02/26/kristol-war-not-serious/
XXX,I agree with your 4 points. Except I tend to think the lying, etc. that got us into Iraq is beside the point now. We are there. We have broken the pot at the Pottery Barn.
The question is now, would we be better off leaving an unstable Iraq or leaving one that was not unstable? If we leave now, I fear the place will become the haven for terrorists that Afghanistan was, and if Iraq teams up with their Shi’ite kin in Iran, that doesn’t look like a good picture either.
But, staying another 10 or so years in Iraq at the current costs (money and lives) is not a viable option. No wonder Bush puts on his happy face and talks about the great progress in Iraq. He must surely know he has painted us into a miserable corner.
The thing about the so-called Democrat plan above is that at least we would be able to pull somewhat out of that mess, but still be available to take care of our obligations/interests in the region. It would be progress — which I have not seen much of in Iraq the last few years. So, I want to hear more about this plan.
DD, shrub puts on his happy face because he knows he is never going to have to go to Iraq and risk his precious a$$!
That is what is pictured in my head. I remember all the leftist that I hand around with in my youth. They were the drunks, pot smokers, drug addicts, and basically the complaining losers of society.
It is my experience. I don’t think I can get that out of my head, so I will always relate a leftist as a loser. And most of them are.
But I will give the benefit of the doubt and just read and listen to your side of the debate and aurgument.
Yeah, it’s hard to get past those memories. There were sone kids down the road that pulled the legs off frogs, shot neighbors dogs, and blew up cats with cherry bombs. They grew up to be staunch republicans.
Gee, the concept of extreme rightists in my mind is the classic beer-swilling Southern accent talkin’ beats his wife and kids Confederate flag waiving cross burning white-hooded gun-obsessed war freak racist homophobe ignorant country bumpkin know-nothing redneck.
Sorry if this offends anyone, but this is really my opinion of the far right.
I guess one thing we can agree on. The extermist of the political system (far-left, far-right) are people you probably don’t want to associate with.
For instance, George Washington.
What a flaming radical! Anybody else would have tried to work with their king and country.
Or take Lincoln. He was a real whack job . . . freeing the slaves like the wild-eyed radical he was.
All the great names in history were radicals. And all the Joe Williams’s fought them every step of the way, until decades after they succeeded; then they say they supported them all along . . .
Um. Lincoln was a REPUBLICAN!
George Washington was a national hero fighting the tyranical leftist government of the British Empire.
The republicans of Lincolns time were not the same as the republikans today. They actually have very little in common.
CX, tell us how you really feel ;)
K,I JUST WANNA DANCE!!!
Try polka!!
I can’t do polka! I’ll have to settle for an Irish jig!
Joe–
A monarchy cannot be leftist.
You know, facts aren’t just what you want them to be . . . idiot.
Interesting article. Maybe the Eagle will have something on this survey. Will just have to see.
Released: February 28, 2006
U.S. Troops in Iraq: 72% Say End War in 2006
Le Moyne College/Zogby Poll shows just one in five troops want to heed Bush call to stay “as long as they are needed”While 58% say mission is clear, 42% say U.S. role is hazyPlurality believes Iraqi insurgents are mostly homegrownAlmost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11, most don’t blame Iraqi public for insurgent attacksMajority of troops oppose use of harsh prisoner interrogationPlurality of troops pleased with their armor and equipmentAn overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows.
The poll, conducted in conjunction with Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies, showed that 29% of the respondents, serving in various branches of the armed forces, said the U.S. should leave Iraq “immediately,” while another 22% said they should leave in the next six months. Another 21% said troops should be out between six and 12 months, while 23% said they should stay “as long as they are needed.”
Different branches had quite different sentiments on the question, the poll shows. While 89% of reserves and 82% of those in the National Guard said the U.S. should leave Iraq within a year, 58% of Marines think so. Seven in ten of those in the regular Army thought the U.S. should leave Iraq in the next year. Moreover, about three-quarters of those in National Guard and Reserve units favor withdrawal within six months, just 15% of Marines felt that way. About half of those in the regular Army favored withdrawal from Iraq in the next six months.
The troops have drawn different conclusions about fellow citizens back home. Asked why they think some Americans favor rapid U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, 37% of troops serving there said those Americans are unpatriotic, while 20% believe people back home don’t believe a continued occupation will work. Another 16% said they believe those favoring a quick withdrawal do so because they oppose the use of the military in a pre-emptive war, while 15% said they do not believe those Americans understand the need for the U.S. troops in Iraq.
The wide-ranging poll also shows that 58% of those serving in country say the U.S. mission in Iraq is clear in their minds, while 42% said it is either somewhat or very unclear to them, that they have no understanding of it at all, or are unsure. While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly “to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the 9-11 attacks,” 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was “to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.”
“Ninety-three percent said that removing weapons of mass destruction is not a reason for U.S. troops being there,” said Pollster John Zogby, President and CEO of Zogby International. “Instead, that initial rationale went by the wayside and, in the minds of 68% of the troops, the real mission became to remove Saddam Hussein.” Just 24% said that “establishing a democracy that can be a model for the Arab World” was the main or a major reason for the war. Only small percentages see the mission there as securing oil supplies (11%) or to provide long-term bases for US troops in the region (6%).
The continuing insurgent attacks have not turned U.S. troops against the Iraqi population, the survey shows. More than 80% said they did not hold a negative view of Iraqis because of those attacks. About two in five see the insurgency as being comprised of discontented Sunnis with very few non-Iraqi helpers. “There appears to be confusion on this,” Zogby said. But, he noted, less than a third think that if non-Iraqi terrorists could be prevented from crossing the border into Iraq, the insurgency would end. A majority of troops (53%) said the U.S. should double both the number of troops and bombing missions in order to control the insurgency.
The survey shows that most U.S. military personnel in-country have a clear sense of right and wrong when it comes to using banned weapons against the enemy, and in interrogation of prisoners. Four in five said they oppose the use of such internationally banned weapons as napalm and white phosphorous. And, even as more photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq surface around the world, 55% said it is not appropriate or standard military conduct to use harsh and threatening methods against insurgent prisoners in order to gain information of military value.
Three quarters of the troops had served multiple tours and had a longer exposure to the conflict: 26% were on their first tour of duty, 45% were on their second tour, and 29% were in Iraq for a third time or more.
A majority of the troops serving in Iraq said they were satisfied with the war provisions from Washington. Just 30% of troops said they think the Department of Defense has failed to provide adequate troop protections, such as body armor, munitions, and armor plating for vehicles like HumVees. Only 35% said basic civil infrastructure in Iraq, including roads, electricity, water service, and health care, has not improved over the past year. Three of every four were male respondents, with 63% under the age of 30.
The survey included 944 military respondents interviewed at several undisclosed locations throughout Iraq. The names of the specific locations and specific personnel who conducted the survey are being withheld for security purposes. Surveys were conducted face-to-face using random sampling techniques. The margin of error for the survey, conducted Jan. 18 through Feb. 14, 2006, is +/- 3.3 percentage points.
(2/28/2006)