Few are willing to defend the right of the Phelps clan to picket the funerals of fallen troops, which is why so many states, including Kansas, are now rushing to curtail those rights. But the First Amendment isn’t reserved for only pleasant speech, a point powerfully made by Ted Frederickson, an attorney and a journalism professor at the University of Kansas, in this letter to the Lawrence Journal-World. Among his valid points:
“A law that keeps demonstrators nearly two football fields away from the target of their expression is intended to censor the message. Such laws open the door for public officials to banish critics to where they can’t be heard.”
And “using law to silence Fred Phelps suggests that his message has power and that we fear it.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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56 Comments
I’m Afraid Ted makes an excellent point: where will the government stop when it comes to curtailing any form of free speech?
While the Phelps clan is as despicable as any group can get, denying them the right to protest would be a clear violation of the bill of rights.
Unless: Their continued verbal abuse of the families of loved ones, who lost their lives in the service of their country, should be incited to do bodily harm to the morons. Then it could be argued that the clan caused the violence, and could be prohibited from protesting because of the very real chance there would be violence again. Protests, whose only purpose is to incite violence, is not covered under either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, I think. Hmmm. Anybody know if I’m correct on this?
I have posted this very issue before, but noone seems to care about the Constitution until it has already been walked on.
JM…I could see this violence erupting if the Phelps bunch attempts to make a scene at Coretta Scott King’s services. I would hope they have a little more class than that, but I doubt it!
JM ~ Yes. For the same reason that freedom of speech doesn’t cover you standing up in a crowded theatre and yelling fire. The Intent is measured against the freedom of speech.“A law that keeps demonstrators nearly two football fields away from the target of their expression is intended to censor the message. Such laws open the door for public officials to banish critics to where they can’t be heard.”A very valid point. Either allow it or don’t but to randomly decide who can and who can’t protest at a certain location strictly on the content of the protest seems a bit off doncha think?
Wolfie–
Read the bill. It does not censor the content, but the activity and only at funerals.
Your right to free speech is not absolute. You cannot, for example, publicly declare a threat against the life of the President. As previously mentioned, you cannot yell fire in a theatre. You cannot use words that would “incite others to riot”.
Freedom of speech is a right that has been protected for centuries, and this bill does not impugn on that right. It limits disruptive activities at funerals. Very limited application.
Ray..I hear on this Blog all the time about “equal application of the law”. Well.. why doesn’t this “law” apply to protests at Promise Keeper’s conventions, or at the door of Central Christian Church?IMHO the “law” is unconstitutional.
Phelps sights freedom of religion and freedom of speech, the law does recognized both in that there are some religions that call for the slaughter of animal as part of their religion. The problem that Phelps will run into claiming that he’s is Christianity and based on the Bible. Christianity is a recognized religion and the Bible is the recognized book of that religion. But since no other Christians are following him in that course or his logic in his reading of the Bible. He may not be protected under the law of freedom of religion.
Freedom of speech may also be as has been pointed out make not be used, since there could be no other concept of what he is doing then to cause a violent reaction or a public disturbance. Since his message does not make a point or have a real voice but to cause discord.
Sam..
Are those events funerals? This law is targeted only at funerals. Read the text of the bill, it emphasizes that the families have a right to mourn in peace.
Your right to freedom of speech does not include using a loudspeaker at 2AM on residential streets..people have a right to quiet enjoyment of their homes.
Or, would you repeal that as well?
This law will pass, Sam. It will likely be tested in court. If it passes that test, then the sick cult from Topeka can mutter among themselves and grieving families can bury their dead with some vestige of dignity and privacy.
“Bad facts make bad law.”
We have a little controversy brewing over here in St. Louis. The National Alliance, a neo-Nazi hate group, is suing the parent company of MetroLink, a commuter rail system. They had contracted with Metro to have placards on the trains. When Metro found out exactly what National Alliance is, they took the placards down and ended the contract, saying their advertising policy reserves the right to “reserves the right to refuse controversial placements”.
Since this regards advertising, I can see Metro refusing the contract. (and can understand someone’s performance evaluation getting dinged for accepting it)
A KKK group here has a section of the interstate in the “adopt-a-highway” program, and after a LOT of controversy, their name is on the sign. While I’m not jumping up and down with joy that the KKK has their name up there, I will grudgingly grant they do have protection under the First Amendment. HOWEVER, they may get it taken away as they tend not to meet the requirements of taking care of their section of the interstate.
Further down the same interstate, it has been designated the Rosa Parks Highway. Ha!
But the issue at hand, Fred Phelps, et al., their actions at funerals do not reflect well on them. Freedom of speech or not, that’s just low class.
ETIQUETTE POLICE!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with Ray, precedents have been set, and no one’s free speech rights will be at risk if the authors of this bill adhere to the quidelines of the constituion. Individuals do have the right not to be harrassed. One person’s right stops when it begins to infringe upon the rights of others.It’s time America stood up against hate groups and quit allowing these bullies to intimidate with the threat of lawsuits. Another good thing about this bill is it won’t be as easy for them to get the media attention they crave.My hat’s off to Jean Schodorf and Carolyn McGinn for introducing this legislation. It’s about time.
Freedom of speech has ALWAYS been regulated. We have obscenity laws; particularly in the presence of children. We have anti-harassment laws. I can’t call someone on the phone in the middle of the night to tell her that her dead husband is burning in Hell. As pointed out above I cannot yell FIRE in a crowded theater.
I wonder hot Pharisee Phred and his little band would react if they were beset by similar abuse. I wonder how Margie Phelps would like it if people called her incessantly at her job and called it “freedom of spech”?
Maybe we should start calling her and see what happens. Does anyone have her number?
The solution is easy,start a petition like Operation Southwind did against the adult shops stating that Phelps language and signs violates the community decency standards. In short its obscene.Then apply that to the jerks that put aborted baby pictures on the side of a 20′ box truck and drive it around, this too violates community standards.
785–296–3128
Oh, goodie, a phone number with no explanation or reason. I’m DYING of curiosity.
Just like when I see “For a good time, call Trixie XXX,XXXX” written above a public toilet.
Todd, have some class.
Oh, that’s supposed to be Margie Phelps’s number.
Now I get it.
Still, no class though.
The confusion you all seem to be experiencing is in the way the law defines free speech against an ordinary individual and free speech against a public figure.
Protestors have few rights to protest a citizen than to protest an elected official.
I’m with Ray on this one.
You can stop harassment, which is what the Phelps’ do at funerals, and still allow protest on political issues against politicians.
Mr. Turner,As much as I like your idea, I also fear the use of “community standards” as the yardstick for regulating speech and behavior. Most of us on this blog at some point violate somebody’s community standards and sensitivities.”Community standards” is a catch-all term that allows a random selection of a few members to decide what everybody else can’t see or hear. It can apply to almost anything, from blatent porn to a “Stop Mad Cowboy Disease” T-shirt, to a rainbow bumpersticker, to a cross on a church! It’s an end run around the bill of rights.As much as I’m offended by Phelps and the “Truth Trucks,” I would rather oppose them in a marketplace of ideas than try to ban them with a weapon that very well may return to bite us all in the ass!
FO, Lib.
It’s public information.
Looks like KAKE is doing a story on Phelps tonight at 10 (it’s a sweeps month). Looks like the reporter attended a church service and has some of the inside info.
Honestly, people say not to give them any attention and they will go away, but I think Phelp’s gang will do what they do no matter what.
Does anyone know if groups have protested the Phelps’ church before?
As much as the Patriot Guard supports this bill, there is a downside. It also means that nobody can protest (cheer and celebrate) when that disgusting, sick old pervert (Pharisee Phred) finally does drop dead.
Granted, that would lower us to their level…which is below human comprehension. But, the law would be binding on all. So, we can party and celebrate, just not near them.
Works for me.
NoJo,There have almost always been counterprotests to Phelps’ hate campaigns, but the press doesn’t find them nearly as newsworthy as Phelps. The current flurry only happened because he started offending straight people too!
I have said before and will say again that freedom of speech is an all or nothing proposition. If negro rappers can “rap” about raping White girls and killing cops and korean shop owners then the Phelps people have to have the same rights to express thier views!
The last thing we need is to go down the road that the Europeans are taking,
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7695http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7701http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7702http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7707http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7725http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7726http://www.nationalvanguard.org/index.php
Viva la Raza Blanco!!
Free speech is one thing- – -the Phelps hate campaign is another !! Common decency MUST be respected, and observed. This country has lost too much of it already. Same goes for rappers- – -which I can’t stand.
Who exactly gets to determine just what common decency is, a judge or perhaps an elected official playing to the voters?
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
We could still celebrate Phelps’s passing (I hear he’s not well), it’ll just have to be 300 yards away from his funeral. Afterwards, we could all parade over to the cemetery and dance (or pee, depending on your preference)on his grave.
I believe the point is missed on the freedom of speech. He still has that freedom to say whatever he wants. The only difference is not right in front of a religious funeral ceremony, 1 hour before and 2 hours after. These funerals should be respected as if it was in their own house. His protests are more Hate and Harrassment than anything else. Just because he hides behind the religion umbrella doesn’t make him eligible. He doesn’t even read the same bible as we do, his verses are all mixed up and out of context compared to real Christian bibles.
They have passed laws regulating abortion protests now and it doesn’t seem to bother anyone other than the protestors that would just as soon be able to protest right in the operating room.
The other point to look at is that his protests can very easily incite danger. There are some families that really love each other and will go to great lengths to prove it. I am sorry if this does’t apply to you. Harrassing a grieving family member, right in his face could easily cause that person to do something irrational (more irrational than protesting right in the face of someone who has lost a family member who might do anything).
I would also like to mention that Journalism is nothing but someone else’s opinion and not fact in most cases. Such as in the first Post where they quote Ted Fredrickson as saying the new bill will put them 2 football fields away. This is another Journalism Free Speech Lying Attorney tactic which is not based on any fact whatsoever. The main goal is to make people believer you even when you are lying. The bill calls for 300 feet and in AMERICA, football fields are only 300 feet from goal line to goal line. Ted was probably thinking about some Afghanistan game played on a field 600 feet long. Here is a hint for all of you Journalists and Free Speech advocates: write the truth and the facts and you will go far, otherwise write what you want to without facts and you will have to go far to find a job.
Dear Damoon,
I would gladly pee on Phelps’s grave, but when I left the Navy I promised myself I would never stand in line again.
Hank
Can I urinate on MLK’s grave? lol
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
We’d let you go to the head of the line, Hank…..maybe you could even lead the parade!!
What Phelps needs to realize is ONLY the dead should be allowed to protest at military heros funerals. But, once that change is implemented ….. I encourage him to be the first protester we have!
Uncle Sam
Even people whose posts usually make me hate them seem to agree mostly with me on the matter of Phelps.
Given that universal revulsion of this man and his methods, I suggest the KAKE TV expose of the Westboro Baptist Church be shown on CNN,MSNBC, The Fox ‘news” channel, andin every other media outlet available.
If the Phelps church has 501c status to avoid taxation, that status should be questioned.
If the Phelps church has any consecration or acknowledgement in the Christian Church, that also should be questioned and if possible revoked.
That said, we MUST NOT deny that sad sick man and his deluded, mostly familial, and likely inbred followers rights to free speech. They should not be ALLOWED in their acknowledged offensiveness but true insignifigance to alterlaws that govern us all. Folks that is exactly what THEY want!
I want to punch Phelps in the nose. So does everyone here. I want to make him shut up and go away. So does everyone here. But we must not do that.If we do, we either ALL lose the laws of freedom of speech that protect us, or let Phelps use them in litigation that will only further serve to fund his sick beliefs. tHE ATTENDANT media attention only serving his sick megalomania.
Let Phelps speak. Make no boundries for his speech. Instead, let us all surround his small deluded group wherever they appear and shout him down.
I don’t make it up to Topeka much. But If I could I’d stand with hank and nathan and CF and Ray and Ian andNoJO and Jed and pretty much just about everyone in a much crowded ring around the Phelps “church”
It’s gone too far, JR. No one has the right to assault another individual, and that’s what Phelps is guilty of. Keeping him away from grieving families is the right thing to do. He can protest and spew his venom in other places. My own son had an altercation with him on the KU campus. His free speech rights (or ours) will not be threatened by laws that guarantee respect and privacy for families who’ve lost their loved ones.
Besides, the reason he gets so much press is because he pickets the funerals. They don’t cover him as much when he’s in other places. That’s why he chose to start harassing the soldiers families, it’s just so outrageous, people have to pay attention. That’s what he wants.
If Phelps, as he stated, “loves fags,” it would go a long way toward explaining his abuse of his family! He, like a lot of other christians, has redefined love in such a way as to allow him to anything he wants to those he “loves!”
Yo jed u b trippin 4 sho
peace out
Isn’t there a song that says “you always hurt the ones you love”, must be Fred’s theme song….he’s so sick. I’d LOVE to see some psychological testing done on him, now that would be interesting!
If we are going to perform psychological tests on Phelps then we should do they same for race-mixers, homosexuals and leftists who vote for people like Hillary, fat Teddy and Barney Frank. Psych profiles on guilt ridden, self hating White leftists would indeed prove interesting.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
I’d love to see you get some psyche testing, Ian, but I can guess what your diagnosis is already.
After watching KAKE’s interview with Fred Phelps, I can only say “how sad.” Fred, himself, admitted that he doesn’t even know if HE is going to Heaven, but he assured us that the rest of us are going to HELL. That tells you so much about his handle on the Gospel. He is a crazy old man and people who choose to follow him are like sheep going to slaughter. Phelps is a modern day Pharisee.
By the way, Ian, I not only find your biggotry offensive — but YOU seem to be the only one who finds it amusing. Please stop wasting our time with your messages of hatred.
Gertie,
Why are you being mean to me? I am only being truthful.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
You folks should know that they words “tolerance” and “compromise” are found nowhere in the bible, so stop trying to subvert Christian teachings.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Ian, I wouldn’t say I am being any more “mean” than you are. I am calling it as I see it. You are a small minded bigot. You think you are so witty by using your “Viva la raza blanco…” thing, while all the time you are just proving to the rest of us that you are no better than a Nazi or a member of the KKK. Why are you so hung up on mixed races? Because you are narrow minded and small. Apparently, you need to make yourself feel more important. So, forgive me, if you think I am being “mean,” but I think the rest of the regular bloggers would agree with me. We’re tired of reading your bigoted posts.
Gertie,
Ian (If this is his real name.) has attacked me as well with his words about several postings I made here about phelps and his HATE CULT! Ian seems to be made in the same mold as phelps, the KKK and all the other hate cults. If he thinks phelps is so great, then perhaps he ought to join their hate cult. Then again, perhaps he is a part of the phelps hate cult already and is only one of his family under an assumed name here.
Since no state in this union seems to be able to (Or have the guts.) put a stop to this hateful fool and his mindless ZOMBIES. I say it is high time for the people of any place he takes his hate to, to STAND TOGETHER AND RUN THEM OUT OF TOWN. TARRED AND FEATHERED IF NEEDS BE! This was done in the past with fools and troublemakers to great affect. Why not see if it will work again.
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
Ian,My white girlfriend and I are planning on having 3 mixed race babies when we’re married. I just want you to know that if I have a boy, I’ll name him “Ian”.
Viva la Raza, PENDEJO!
CruX,
You do know that race-mixers and their offspring will be denied the kingdom of heaven, don’t you?
I can see that affirmative action has been very, very good to you, congratulations!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Sure Ian,Im going to burn in hell for “race-mixing” the Eleventh Commandment. Gasp! How could I forget the Vatican 3 divine injunction? Woe is me. Affirmative action was primarily intended to desegregate schools. And FYI Ian, I scored a 165 on my LSAT exam and Washburn has a demanding score of a 155. That means that I had a 100% admittance rate in this fine Law School irregardless of my skin color. But you’re right as always Ian, they MUST have admitted me based on my ethnic background. :)
Viva La Raza, Pendejo!
CruX,
You have been sipping too much of that Vatican 2 kool-aid.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Ian
Vatican 2 kool-aid?
kool-aid drinkers is a term ascribed to far-left leaning liberals. The Vatican is liberal now Ian? What planet do you come from? Do they put their underwear on their heads in your world? Careful Ian, I think someone spiked YOUR kool-aid. :)
CruX,
I am SSPX Catholic and yes the church in Rome is leftist and apostate! Vatican 2 was the judeo-masonic subversion of the church!
http://www.truecatholic.org/heresiesjp2.htm
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Achtung, Achtung:
“The existence in the Church of a modern, liberal, ecumenical concept of a Judeo-Christian heritage dates back to the Vatican II document on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions, Nostra Aetate. This declaration mentions twice that “Christians and Jews have a common spiritual heritage” (§4), without explaining what that is. If by this is meant that we share that part of sacred Scripture that we call the Old Testament, it is partly right (the Jews reject seven inspired books of the Old Testament). If, however, by this is meant that there is something common with respect to our spiritual life, Faith and moral principles, then it is entirely wrong, for present-day Judaism is based upon the denial of the most basic truths of the Catholic Faith.
Consequently, this politically correct term “Judeo-Christian heritage” must be regarded as vague, deliberately ambiguous, liberal, favoring indifferentism and ecumenism, and not at all orthodox.” [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott
http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__theological.htm#judeo_christian
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Ian, please stop telling everyone about our ultra-secret joint operation to take over the world. Yes Ian, Roman Catholics and Jews get along so well that many a crusader killed them after Urban 2’s speech during the First Crusade. But that’s all water under the bridge now, we prefer the closet-self-hating-Hispanic types. Only they are genetically superior in finding out our RC&Jewish Master Plan for world domination. So stop telling on us, please!
Since no state in this union seems to be able to (Or have the guts.) put a stop to this hateful fool and his mindless ZOMBIES. I say it is high time for the people of any place he takes his hate to, to STAND TOGETHER AND RUN THEM OUT OF TOWN. TARRED AND FEATHERED IF NEEDS BE! This was done in the past with fools and troublemakers to great affect. Why not see if it will work again.
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN
Well folks, That BB brain phelps bunch say they are going to be here this Thursday the 23rd in Anoka, MN for the funereal of Cpl. Andrew Kemple. The Patriot Guard will be there and I will be there with the guard as well to protect the Kemple family and friends from these black hearted fools.
I read a news story on BB brain’s site and the reporter stated that the phelps bunch are begging for someone to give them a sound beating and one of these days, they are going to get it. The reporter also reminded the BB brains of a Bible passage, “You reap what you sow.” and I hope that this Thursday, THEY REAP A PILE OF PAIN!
After 8 years of tracking that hate cult on the web and getting soundly cursed with some of the most vulgar words I have had the misfortune to read or hear coming out of two supposedly christian females and one male, I AM FINALLY GOING TO FACE THEM AND TRY TO DROWNED OUT THEIR HATE FOR A WHILE!
Perhaps this will get this State to pass funereal protection and anti picketing laws like the other 13 States and our neighbor State of Wisconsin have. I HOPE IT DOES!
Wish me luck all!
Lady Donna Marie RoyceMinneapolis, MN