After a period spent debating the unworkable over-the-river proposal, the Sedgwick County Commission rightly got back to advancing the real arena project Wednesday, choosing a two-concourse design and making sound decisions on seat width and knee room. Fears about a second concourse, given wildly varying estimates, seem to have subsided, with assurances that two will cost only $4 million to $5 million more than one. That sounds like good value for the money, because a second concourse will mean easier access to restrooms and concession stands. Next comes what the public has been eager to see: design proposals, perhaps by late April. Let’s hope they further fire up the crowd.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- XXX on Open thread 11/22
- JWink on Health care reform would save state money
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/22
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/22
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/22
- RightAngle on Open thread 11/22
- Regular on ACORN stole election?
- thomaswitt on ACORN stole election?
- Daniel on Open thread 11/21
- Daniel on ACORN stole election?
20 Comments
Now that the public has a better idea of what the arena project is all about, Sedgwick County voters should get to vote again on whether or not they want it. According to my observation, the old 50-50 vote would now be 90% opposed to the arena.
At the recent “public” meetings, even less than the former 200 supporters showed up to ask questions, most public employees in activities related to the arena.
Then take an equivalent amount of sales taxes to improve county roads, improve drainage and tributaries, renovate the downtowns of the smaller county communities such as Derby, Haysville, Andale and yes, gasp, Park City. Go ahead and renovate the fabulous Kansas Coleseum to provide more restrooms, better ingress/egress, signage, etc.
County commissioners should be working on the above kinds of needs like county commissioners elsewhere, rather than busily trying to furnish the public entertainment options.
Give the real people a say in this matter, not just the politicians and media people who will benefit.
It’s great that they are moving forward. They should save the equivilant to the second concourse cost with the location they choose to place it.
This is a good thing. Finally Wichita is moving forward towards the 22 century. We needed this downtown arena years ago. We are so behind the other cities that are even smaller than Wichita, like Des Moines and Little Rock.
This is going to be one of the greatest investments the county and the majority of people who voted for it will see.
You have a lot of people (mainly the people who voted against it) that say nothing but bad things about it, but wait until its constructed and their mouths will spew nothing but praises and proud recongition of our great arena.
Have faith naysayers. This is going to be a great addition to our city.
And to comment on JWink about the other surrounding suburbs. They have no downtown, what are you talking about renovating. Renovate what? There is no historic buildings. Just like all suburbs, they just have houses, stripmalls, restaurants, and gas stations. There is nothing to renovate.
The people who oppose the downtown arena are against it now, but just wait until it’s built. They will sing a different tune. Just like the people who opposed the Big Ditch, Kellogg Expansion, Interstate 1-135, Northeast Expressway, WaterWalk, Meridian street coridor, and on and on and on. Basically they are always against improvement and progress until its already present.
Everything is a waste of money until you see the finish project and use it. Once the Downtown arena is finished, I know I will be attending events 10x as much as I will with the old Kansas Coliseum. It’s going to be great and will bring in a lot more to Metro Wichita then anything else.
I voted against it, because I thought it was a dumb idea. I still do. But since I have to live with it, I hope they at least do it right. I’m not at all convinced that’s going to happen.
This comment isn’t just as it relates to the arena, and yes I realize that we have many, many serious issues to deal with here in Wichita, but I’ve lived here most of my adult life and it bugs me how little community pride I sense. Now, it doesn’t take an arena to have such pride, but most of what it seems I hear is complaining and the dreadful prognistications of the naysayers. Geez, if this place is so awful, why would anyone want to move here or stay here?
I say this a little tongue in cheek , but there is some reality to this. Its like living in a town full of the bitter old man across the street who doesn’t like anything.
I heard the latest proposal has them siting the arena right over the Wichita Eagle office building.
Anybody else hear that?
Jeff, you hit the nail right on the head.
I voted for the arena because of the blackmail. “Either about 3 years of increased sales taxes, or a 20-25 year increase in my property taxes.” I would much rather see anybody that shops in the county pay for the arena than see homeowners take another hit.But they’ve already set the arena up to fail. No parking? What a gaggle of idiots!
Well, you have a point, Jeff. At least this place isn’t Ok City.
Joe Williams and Rhonda Holman: Its always fun to spend other peoples’ money and then say, “We’re the government and its worker bees. Now look what we are going to do to you, or make that do for you.” In the case of the proposed downtown arena, a giant quarter billion dollars of regressive sales tax dollars are going to waste to build a white elephant that everyone in Sedgwick County now knows they don’t want. No amount of SPINNING by the politicians and media people is going to change this anti-arena sentiment by the real live citizens of Sedgwick County.
Joe, your comparison to various public works projects is a poor one to use to make your case. Most of those had a real purpose. For example the Big Ditch will carry excessive flood water. One of the many objections to the Downtown Arena is that no one knows what its purpose is. Is it to provide a stage for the return of the aged, over-weight Brittany Spears or a basketball court for aged, over-weight professional basketball players?
As I said before, architects like to say, “form follows function” but if the function is unclear, the form will be equally unclear.
A major building for downtown Wichita should be near the Arkansas River for a variety of reasons including view, dispersal of storm water to the river, enhance the River area.
The only possible successful purpose for a downtown Wichita public building would be for a great INTERNATIONAL BOWLING CENTER with all the bells and whistles to attract tourists from all over the world. A goal would be to attract the National Bowling League in one year of their three year cycle. Of course, a riverside site would be imperative.
Joe Williams, your blog is appears to say, “just trust you” on how successful the arena will be. Thats strange in that we don’t know who you are or your track record in anything. Are we to trust a will-of-the-wisp? I don’t think so.
And looking back at your blog, I see you feel free to criticize the beautiful small villages of Sedgwick County, the very people who are being called on to finance the arena. I am very familiar with most of these suburbs and know they all have needs for public works improvements that are not being met by the current county commissioners. I am very familiar with the work county commissioners usually do in other counties. At $65,000/year plus perks and snacks for each of five county commissioners, we don’t need their concern about our entertainment options. I say get back to work doing what the voters thought they elected you for.
If Wichita wants to think big, this faulty arena plan doesn’t get it.
Bowling? Give me a break.
Also! Not to be a stickler, but I notice saying this, but when you say “on your blog” or “my last blog” it’s not correct. Blog is the website. What you mean is post. On your post you said “just trust you”
It gets a bit confusing when people call postings “blogs”
Other than that! I just respectfully disagree with you JWink. You said it is easy to spend other peoples money, well I paid my share of taxes. I’m one of the 50% of Americans that actually pays taxes and footing the bill for the ones that don’t.
You have your vision of Wichita, I have mine. But I like mine better. A great city to live in vs your mini-Detroit version of Wichita.
J.Williams: I recall visiting Wichita in 1948 with my father and sitting in a depression-era chili parlor at southwest corner of Waterman and Main Streets. As we looked at downtown Wichita through eyes more used to Pratt’s beautiful brick Main Street, downtown Wichita then looked like New York City.
However, after returning to Wichita in the late 1990’s, I now see a different picture. A downtown that has been allowed to deteriorate. Spending a 1/4 billion dollars of taxpayers sales tax dollars on a downtown arena is definitely not the right answer. Only amateurs could come up with this solution.
Actually I was one of the earlier voices calling for a modest downtown arena to be paid for by private investors to be located across from Lawrence-Dumont Stadium, east side of the Ice Rink. Or tear down the Ice Rink and use that whole block. But the key was private investors, not the taxpayers using a regressive sales tax that is needed for real needs.
I have a bet on with a politician that our sales taxes will be 10 cents on the dollar within a very few years.
I accept your correction on “post” versus “blog.” I was in a hurry to leave for work as I am now.
I’m with any private investment. But arenas are very rarely paid for by private investors. Every once in awhile you can get private investors to fund an NFL Football stadium (believe it or not, I feel that Wichita should try for an expansion team, and I’m not an NFL fan), but an arena in practally all cities are all publicly funded.
I also wish that a wealthy individual would do it or a group of investors. I’m all for private investment, capitalism, and pro-business. But it will never happen. We can wait 100 years and nobody is going to build an arena in Wichita on their dime.
Yes! We do have too much of a tax burden in this state. You think Wichita has a high sales tax rate, its actually one of the lowest in the state. Places like Garden City, Dodge City, and Liberal are up near the 8% range.
Kansas is up there in as one of the highest tax burden states. Most of it is because of farmers, but it makes Kansas a less likely state for investment.
I’m for the arena, because it’s something, in otherwise, wouldn’t never be built. And we have to do something to keep this city viable and fresh. Without it, we are dieing a slow death. We cannot be the last in the cities around our area for getting what we need. I’m sick of tired of Wichita being last.
Some comments:
Joe – “Kansas is up there in as one of the highest tax burden states” Doesn’t adding an additional tax make that even worse?
“They have no downtown” Kechi, Goddard, Cheney, Maize, St Mark etc all have their little downtowns. They are all old towns with their own identities. You might be thinking only about the ‘cookie-cutter’ areas on the fringe of Wichita.
JWink – “A major building for downtown Wichita should be near the Arkansas River for a variety of reasons including view, dispersal of storm water to the river, enhance the River area.” I strongly disagree. An arena needs no view; it generally has no windows. Storm water can be readily handled at the site; in fact I am more concerned professionally with its impact AFTER it reaches the river.
I still want to know what will fill the Arena. It’s too bad the decision was made to NOT include WSU as men’s basketball might make a good baseline occupancy. You might note that in each and every similar-sized city where these things have been at all successful they have included the University. Here a specific decision was made NOT to do so.
Joe – I hope you are right and this thing works. I, too, am one of the 50% who pay for things.
JWink:Were you for Century II? That building was built with tax money.
There are only 2 major arenas built with private money in the U.S. They are in Chicago and L.A.
Also didn’t the owner of the Wichita Stealth offer to build an arena downtown with his own money. What happened to him? Oh yeah he went bankrupt.
Could you please explain the water run-off thing to me one more time
Building an arena downtown is 5 times better than the Coliseum.
Ben Huie:Why would WSU want to play in the downtown arena when they just got Levitt remodeled into Koch Arena? If you watch anybody vs. Creighton on TV you will notice that there is no crowd noise. That is what happens when you play in a 17,000 seat arena. I like Koch Arena the way it is. It has better atmosphere.
All the surrounding communities do not have the population Wichita does. Wichita is the biggest city so Wichita should get more money.
Joe Williams, Ben Huie and Keith, et al: Its been a long day but I will try to comment on your thoughts above. First of all, having been raised in the wonderful small farm-to-market town of Pratt, I am a fan of small Kansas towns. In fact, I recently wrote a full page article entitled, “Pratt, 1940’s and 1950’s,” published last week in the PRAIRIE CONNECTION newspaper out of Harper, Kansas. (Copies at Hatman Jack’s hat store and buy a hat while you are there!)
Similarly we have many great small communities right here in Sedgwick County such as Haysville, Derby, Goddard, Garden Plain, Cheney, Andale, and, yes, even Park City, and many more. If you drive through these quaint little villages on a foggy weekend morning, you can easily visualize what a little more public money could add to these communities in the way of public parks, visitors centers, historical markers, widened roadways, adequate drainage to reduce the flooding (in town of Sedgwick, for example). With these improvements, these communities could easily draw tourists.
If I had lived in Wichita back in the 1960’s, would I have favored building Century II and the Big Ditch back in the 1960’s? Most likely yes, because they had a real purpose that could be measured in positive benefits … not the case with the proposed downtown arena. When Koch Arena was renovated, the whole purpose for the downtown arena was eliminated. Downtown arenas need a university basketball team to make them viable.
Regarding the comment that all downtown arenas are paid for with taxpayer dollars. I don’t believe that. For example, the Des Moines arena is being financed with proceeds from a gambling casino. The main reason for financing arenas with public tax dollars is because they DON’T make economic sense otherwise. And there is no provision for pay back to the taxpayers if it would happen to make a profit.
Regarding development of buildings, I and my former associate in Kansas City, Hugh Bryan, built more office buildings, shopping centers and motels in the K.C. area during the 1970’s than were built in all of Wichita during the same years. Developers are usually not exceedingly wealthy people. They are visioneers, risk-takers and very practical investors to win confidence of the mortgage lenders. I venture to say NO developer in America ever builds large projects out of his own billfold — its all done on borrowed money.
I am reminded of Kansas City in the 1930’s. With acquiescence of political boss, Tom Pendergast, a blue ribbon committee of 100 citizens, including Harry Truman, assembled to study and recommend improvements to Jackson County, roads, parks, public improvements, etc. The resulting list received approval of a large majority of citizens. The projects were constructed according to plan and many are still in use today.
Note that a few wannebe county commissioners didn’t try to spin one useless project to the voters in the name of progress.
To those in the “postings” above who claim to be net taxpayers rather than net tax users — congratulations. Your taxes pay for police/fire protection, public works improvements, local, state and federal government, schools, health services, etc. And more demands are arriving continuously so get ready to pay more.
The sales tax for the arena is an increase of about 17% in your sales taxes, from about 6% to 7%, different in different jurisdictions. I have a bet going with a Kansas politician that sales taxes will hit 10% in a very short span of time.
I generally favor spending on education because I received a great education in Kansas schools, colleges and universities. Education spending is one of the most efficient methods of spreading money throughout the community as long as it is monitered carefully.
Sorry Kieth, I think remodeling the 10,000 seat, 4,000 surface parking space Kansas Coliseum would be five times better than building the downtown arena.
I should comment on the potential of a super star studded BOWLING CENTER (and I’m not much of a bowler) but I might do that later. I’ll just say Bowling is now the #1 participatory sport in the world.
Also the storm water runoff problem from an arena built away from the Arkansas River needs more discussion. 66,000,000 pounds of water in one hour is an elephant of a problem.
Is anyone aware that the .3% of our current 7.3% sales tax was due to expire last year, and that our Kansas legislature quietly extended this .3% sales tax indefinitely during last years legislative session? Our local news media kept the news of the extension under wraps and so there was little or no public outcry regarding this permanent tax extension. The funding of our downtown arena with voter approval of a sales tax v. the hated property tax just might have caught the eye of our political friends in Topeka who always seem to have an insatiable appetite for additional tax money for their spending projects. The voter approval for this “temporary” sales tax in Sedgwick County may turn out to result in future temporary and permanent sales tax increases for everyone in our state.
The sales tax is temporary. It is illegal to extend it past the 30 months that the voters voted on.
Keith and Joe, keep the faith guys. JWink talks the talk on vision, but he really has none. A glittering international bowling center–give me a break. This is the same guy who also advocates a “state of the art bingo emporium.” I’ll give him credit, he can sure make me laugh. Jeff, your analogy on Wichita being a city full of old men across the street who don’t like anything was spectacularly appropriate. How true, how true.
Enough about WSU not playing downtown. They were not “left out” of the arena–they chose not to participate. And yes, arenas are successful without university basketball teams. Both OKC’s Ford Center and Des Moines’ Wells Fargo Arena have no university tenants. And for the last time, Wells Fargo was built primarily with tax money, not gambling money. All this misinformation spreading around this blog is incredibly frustrating. Stop making things up, or at least distorting the truth to match your own point of view.
Okay, anyway, I loved the argument that we should spend all this money on small towns in Sedgwick County. I can always count on these blogs to be entertaining. I hate to be serious after reading that post, but talk about a waste of tax money. The economic engine of Sedgwick County is not downtown Mt. Hope. Just the thought is hilarious. Wichita has 3/5 of the population of the county, it should get 3/5 of the county’s attention. The downtown arena is set to generate hundreds of millions in redevelopment in the core of Sedgwick County. We would be lucky to get just hundreds of thousands in redevelopment with the same $184 million spent on the likes of Mt. Hope, Colwich and Furley. Let’s not forget that downtown Wichita is also downtown Sedgwick County.
Thought you folks might be interested in an opinion from a former Wichitan, now living in Des Moines.
I watched several failed attempts to get a downtown arena in Wichita during my years there before moving in 2003.
I really hope the arena is successful in Wichita, although anything on that scale has a lot of risk with it. But your arena will be 2,000 seats smaller than here, so that seems to say that planners there know their limits and aren’t going crazy.
Upside for Wichita: In the long run, the sales tax is the best way to pay. It’s collected and you’re done … funding possible future operating losses could be a problem though.
Wells Fargo Arena and it’s sister convention hall here was paid for by two primary sources: a $50 million state incentive grant and $150 million in bonds backed by profits and rents from Prairie Meadows casino and horse racing track. No sales taxes.
As goes Prairie Meadows, so go the bonds. A little riskier than sales taxes, but I guess that’s appropriate considering funding involves a casino.
Downsides for Wichita: Lack of a primary tenant, and arena management experience … will the county keep current county employees to manage it, or privatize with a national company that can keep costs down and draw into more events? Just watch, that will be a big decision eventually.
Des Moines has a regular tenant in the Iowa Stars, the top minor league team of the NHL’s Dallas Stars. 40 home dates a season. Plus Iowa high school state wrestling (a huge deal here) and boy’s and girls basketball all-class tournaments. Three weeks a year of guaranteed sell-outs.
Wichita? Too early to tell, but I do hope it will be a boost to the area. At least it’ll be paid for. But who’s going to pay for operating expenses and possible losses?