Members of the Phelps clan have a right to their opinions and beliefs, however twisted. But they shouldn’t harass grieving families at funerals. In our editorial in today’s Opinion pages, we support reasonable “time-place” restrictions on funeral protests as long as they balance free speech concerns.
State officials also must acknowledge that the Phelpses — often identified as a “Kansas group” — are severely hurting the state’s image. It would be great to see Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, Kansas lawmakers and religious leaders publicly denounce this hateful cult and affirm Kansas’ commitment to diversity, tolerance and decency.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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129 Comments
The problem with Fred phelps and for that matter Terry Fox and Joe Wright is they wheel a double edged sword. The right of freedom of speech and they hide behind religion. It is self fulfilling prophecy, they say that they are being attacked for preaching the word of God. Then go about trying to cause themselves to be attacked. When the only thing to do with God is their misuse of the Bible to cover their real agenda.
But it is Christianity that suffers from their actions and those within their churches. If you now say “Immanuel” people roll their eyes and refer to Fox as a Phelps want-to-be. Most people do not even know Fred Phelps’s church name. West bough Baptist church, they only know his name, having taken the place of a house of God.
Nice Randy,As much as I despise what the Phelps group does, a statement like “We will not tolerate such an intolerant group” from the Governor of Kansas truly display much wisdom? There is something very very wrong with that picture!IMHO, a media blackout of their activities would be more appropriate than free advertising..
Hell we have one of the family working in state government. This group along with the imbecilic BOE will help keep those pesty, intruding new business and industry from invading our state; with the exception of illegal aliens (sorry undocumented workers).
Many of those with mental illness do not act out their afflictions, as most stay quietly in their churches while wallowing through bazaar fantasies, huddling together consoling each other, in fearing what will happen to them after they die.
But the Oedipus Complex is not so kind to some. Those, like the Phelps clan, are driven out to exhibit their diseased-ravaged minds, actually display themselves in a perverted segue, as a means to seek help.
The fear of death or the guilt-ridden ramifications of lives of cruelty seek redemption in such seemingly odd ways.
There is always a blurry line between mental illness and argument, the Phelps have merely ventured an unpopular guess.
Indignation is the armor needed to not deal with it.—–
Agreed, Sam. If the media would ignore these sickos, (both Phelps AND Fox) they might fade away. After all, they all seem to live for publicity.Why does the paper continually ask Fox for his opinion on things like TV shows? Is he an expert? No, he is an egotistical, self righteous judgmental little demigod posing as a preacher. Sounds a lot like Fred Phelps.
Ignore them both. Online, in the paper and on television.
Randy, Randy, Randy…do you really mean this?
“affirm Kansas’ commitment to diversity, tolerance and decency.”
Shouldnt that comment be on the funny pages? Could you perhaps show some examples of that famous Kansas tolerance for diversity?
Of course the Phelps clan and Terry and Joe and Bob Corkins and the BOE do indeed represent true Kansas. Of course they demostrate how the majority of this state does not tolerate anyone who is not white, straight and born again christian.
And the minority who may have some tiny spec of tolerance hiding deep inside them? Most of them remain cowardly silent on the core issue the Phelp’s use. And that issue is not the war or the military, BTW.No, the reason Fred and company march is the so-called tolerance our government shows toward gay people. (Is anyone else laughing here?)
I guess that famous tolerance would include Kansas’ treatment of Matthew Limon, the hate amendment (which was supported by prominent dems as well as repubs, thank you Jan Pauls) and upcoming efforts to deny foster care children the right to a loving home with gay parents.
Or maybe that tolerance was exhibited by Sen. Kay O’Conner who, in 2004, said that once the hate amendment was passed, more companies would move to Ks so they wouldnt have to deal with gays. I heard similar thoughts from your own Bonnie Huey last year.
ROFLMAO. How many companies have moved here on that basis? And…how many companies have left the state? How is that working for ya Kansas?
No one cared that for years, the Phelps were harrasing the families of gay people at their funerals. It was only when soldiers’ families were harrassed that anyone was upset. It isnt good in either case, but why do we only care about one and not the other?
Kansans should spend less time trying to distance themselves from the christian taliban leaders like Fred, Joe and Terry, and more time in self reflection about their own prejudices. You could also spend a little time learning about the truth of this so called tolerant state.
Do the Phelps make us uncomfortable because they really do illustrate the true nature of Kansas?
And besides, Kansassam, such a comment would seriously hurt her re-election chances wouldnt it? She couldnt possibly do the right thing and still get elected. I guess that really does show the true nature of Kansas.
Kansas…as bigoted as you think. There’s your $750,000 slogan.
The congregations of Terry Fox and Joe Wright only need to look towards the Phelpses to see where the path they are walking is leading them.
It’s leading them to a point of intolerance where something as tasteless and ridiculous as picketing someone’s funeral can be rationalized as for the ’cause’
Bravo, Ksfarmgrrl, but I think kansassam’s previous point should not be lost in the sauce. Speech is speech, and government needs to be careful in its treatment of it.
With that qualification, I applaud your post. Seventy percent of Kansas voters showed they differ with Phelps only by degree.
Degee of what?
Agreed Rage. No argument from me about free speech. The first amendment guards all others.
Phelps actions are wrong and sad. Fox is the voice for a megachurch and believes he is speaking for them and righteousness. Don’t particluarly agree with him. But to call all Kansasans intolerant, What a leap. i know many people from Immanuel and they are godd decent people. Because they don’t agree with the views expressed by the bloggers here they are intolerant. I don’t agree with homosexuality either, but I don’t hate them i just disagree.
Why is it when liberals question or disagree its ok btu when conservatives do it they are intolerant bigots. Read the posts on here and tell who is being intolerant. Might check your own houses first
Degree of extremity, Ed. It’s okay to say you can’t marry or have a domestic partnership or even the rights associated with it (even if there are plenty of qualified persons willing to legally make it happen). And it’s okay to discriminate against religions that perform gay marriages and other types of ceremonies that are disapproved by the tyranny of the majority, religious freedom be damned!
But it’s not okay to picket funerals, or yell “God hates fags” at people.
Questioner,Terry Fox and his ilk want to control all of us according to their own narrow ideological laws. They want to control the government. How is objecting to that “intolerant”?
For that matter, how is disagreeing with someone equivalent to intolerance? Now maybe if our Liberal Getapo tracked you down and threw you in prison for something you did in the privacy of your own home, you might have a point.
If you were gay, and even had gay friends, the punchline would immediately come to you.
Questioner, you also exhibit good agility. Nice leap you made from “most” and “majority” to “all Kansans”. You must have been educated in Kansas schools. Please read my post before you respond.
Rage is right, and there is the 70%vote on record to prove it. If there are so many tolerant and good people in Ks, why arent they speaking out? They too could hate the “sin” of bigotry and love the proponents (Terry, Joe and Fred) and their right to spout it.
You are correct about one thing questioner. I am proudly intolerant of hate and bigotry and the “re-election is what it’s all about” mentality.
Keep giving Fred attention. It’s exactly what he wants.
Kansans are smarter than most of us think.
For one thing, I am thrilled to see that I am not the only one equating Joe Wright and Terry Fox with Fred Phelps. Here I thought this was my own personal revelation. Thanks for proving me wrong.
In another example, last week my roommate, who is gay, went to see Brokeback Mountain with his boyfriend. He had told me beforehand that he expected to see picketers (probably from Immanuel and CCC) outside the theater. After the movie he was genuinely shocked, and not only because there were no picketers. The theater was packed, not with young gay couples but with middle aged and senior straight couples. He assumed that most had no idea what the movie was about and would walk out as soon as it became obvious. He was so surprised when that did not happen! I truly believe that Wichita and Kansas are so much more than Fox, Wright, Phelps, Abrams, and the others giving our state an intolerant, narrow-minded reputation. The rest of us need to put aside our red-state/blue-state pettiness and prove to the world that these idiots do not represent us.
I agree with Ksfarmgirl, there are many who choose to “stay in the closet” with their bigotry and intolerence for what they don’t understand and fear. The Phelp’s, Fox, and company are just more extreme, aggressive and open about their feelings.If everyone (especially the media) would just ignore these people, it would take a lot of the wind out of their sails. One of the effective ways to deal with prejudice and hate is to teach by example, to actually live the values we say we believe in. It’s easier said than done.
You make some good points, Citygirl, but. . .70 percent. Granted it was a primary (fewer voters), but it’s still hard to argue with that.
That being said, it wouldn’t hurt to question the authorities as to why the current law protecting the privacy of funerals isn’t being enforced. When Fox managed to get “Daniel” dropped, the majority of common sense voices made a difference. Why can’t it work in this situation, also?”In order for evil to exist, all good people have to do is nothing”
Equating ANYONE in Kansas with Fred Phelps is just intellectually lazy, or paranoid. Fred is a hate filled freak who apparently doesnt know who Jesus was.
I don’t know that much about Terry Fox and Joe Wright but I know enough to tell you that anyone who places them on the same level as Phelps needs to look in the mirror. Your own intolerance is showing big time…..Oh wait, silly me, leftist are incapable of intolerance.
“In order for evil to exist, all good people have to do is nothing”
Martin Luther King, a Christian minister, who supported the judicial decisions now being attacked as “anti-Christian.”
Intolerance? Explain, Heckler. The comparison is logical.
I worked at the polls as a judge the day the Hate amendment passed. Seemingly average people appeared to think that they were protecting something important by voting for the amendment.
These people had apparently been led to believe that their marriage rights were in jeopardy based on what some gay couple does somewhere. Republicans are masters at fear mongering.
Last I knew whatever the lesbian couple next door do – it has absolutley no effect on my marriage – legally or any other way.
Has there been any legal challenge to the amendment? I sure expected one. This way, we can force the court into doing the right thing for us and then all the while complain about judicial activism.
I probably wont get this exactly correct, but I think Abraham Lincoln said “to sin by silence when men should protest makes cowards of men”. I should think it also applies to women.
Heckler, the Fred, Terry and Joes have the right to say anything they want. People have died for their right to do so and for their right to worship (or not) in any manner that pleases them. I am not trying to curtail their civil rights in the same way they want to deny mine.
I am wondering where all the so called good people are who should also be speaking out on this issue. The fact that so few speak out seems to possibly mean that a)they agree with the american taliban b) they are afraid of retribution by the christian right, or c)they dont give a damn unless it is their ox being gored.
Heckler, I already confessed my intolerance. How about yours?
I’m lovin’ it that Fox and Wright are finally being lumped with Phelps. Birds of a feather and all that.
ksfarmgrrl
I think the reason a lot of people don’t speak out is that they assume everyone else feels the same as they do, that Phelps is a publicity seeking freak, and to give him any attention is like feeding him. Myself and every member of my family are either Catholic or non-denominational Christian. Not one of them, or anyone else I know for that matter shares Phelps’ hatred.
To many people equate “tolerance” with “agreement”. I personally think that living a homosexual lifestyle is morally wrong and that even discussing “gay marriage” is illogical. I disagree with some people, it doesnt mean I won’t stop to help a gay person change a tire in a thunderstorm or give them a place to stay if they’re stranded in a blizzard.
To many people on this blog (and in this society) equate “tolerance” with sharing their left-wing views.
Rage, Usually, people like the Phelps are latent homosexuals themselves and by some twisted reasoning they protest, what they themselves are afflicted with, in order to distance them from it.
Also, it’s some sort of offering-up of others for a punishment they themselves think that they deserve or have coming.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/michael_haggerty/expose3.htm
This is an article about one of Fred’s sons. He tells what it was like growing up in that house. It is a real eye-opener.
ksfrmgrrl,
you are right to say all kansas is a leap. But to say that 70% of kansasans are intolerant is also not right. Should there be civil unions yes, marriage no. I believe it starts us down the slippery slope. I want you to have your rights while protecting the sanctity of marriage for me. I guess if the compromise makes me intolerant than so be it
Kansas has one of the highest divorce rates in the nation, and people are still blathering on about sancity of marriage. Total head in the sand nonsense.
Heckler is right. THERE IS NO COMPARISON POINT when it comes to Fred Phelps. Fox, Wright, Abrams, et.al. are just your garden variety Kansas nut cases. Fred Phelps is EVIL INCARNATE.Todd offers a link above. I’ve been all through it a while back. If you haven’t read the piece, do something valuable with your time. Click the link and read it. It’s going to take some time, but for GOD SAKE read the damn thing! Don’t curse the Phelps family. If you’d been through the kind of cruelty they grew up with, you’d be crazy, too. The Phelps family deserves our prayers. Fred Phelps deserves to burn in hell.
Todd, thanks for the excellent link.
Y’know, what bothers me is that it took Phelps hate-filled protest at the funerals of soldiers before anyone bothered to say much about him. He picketed the funerals of AIDS victims, published newsletters calling anyone who displeased him a “faggot,” and put up a “monument commemorating Matthew Shepard’s entrance into hell,” and very few people seemed to care. Phelps has spouted hatred for decades, but nobody cared until his victims became “decent people.” That’s the real shame our state has to bear!
which is exactly why we should try to protect it and other things that help provide civility and stability in the nation
we are a “its to hard lets do what easiest society” whether we all like it or not
The religious right is always right. Leave poor Reverend Phelps alone. Gays, minorities, and spend the government in the hole liberals just attack, attack, and attack! Phelps stands up for humanity, America, and God’s rules for us to live by. If you choose to be gay, have abortions, or to be poor who are not living to God’s standards. If you fail God on earth you will go to hell for eternity. Stand by the right! Stand by Phelps! If not we will be condemned as a nation as was sodam and Gomorah. We don’t need a polterguist here! Praise America!
Rev Cain
It would sure be nice to see “Moderate Christians” speak out against the extremists for a change. Their religious leaders have been very silent. Why do we not hear condemnation of Pharisee Phred from the pulpits?
“Spend the government into a hole liberals”? Didnt Regan, and both Bushes turn that into a conservative value?
Heckler and X
“Fred is a hate filled freak who apparently doesnt know who Jesus was.”
And that doesnt make Terry and Joe similar? As Rage said, they are separated only by degree.
I know why you support civil unions, as such, and not gay marriage, as such. You are only ok with me having my civil rights, as long as it is codified that your marriage is “better than” or at a higher level than mine. You could not tolerate equal status for my marriage, could you?
I have yet to see how my marriage would harm yours. Wanda Sykes wisely noted that “divorce is the number one cause of marriage failure. It wasnt gays that ended mine…it was divorce.”
If you really want to protect your straight marriages, maybe you should make adultry illegal. Hell, being gay didnt even make the top ten if my Lutheran education is correct. I just dont recall that “thou shalt not be gay” commandment. But I do know about the “thou shalt not commit adultry” one.
Or would that catch too many straight people in the net? Especially public officials of all parties?
You are exactly right, FarmGirl.
Nat’l debt stood at a historic low (as a percent of GDP) under . . . wait for it . . . CARTER.
Reagan ran it up to historic high peacetime levels, BushI ran it up even higher, Clinton/Gore raised taxes on the rich and drove the debt down for the first time since Carter, and Bush II promptly cut taxes on the rich and started two unfunded wars.
Guess what, the nat’l debt is now at a new historic high. Surprise surprise.
These people spend like CONSERVATIVES.
Speaking of anti-gay pastors throwing stones in glass houses:
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13605240.htm
OKLAHOMA CITY – A Baptist minister who has spoken out against homosexuality was charged Wednesday with propositioning an undercover male police officer.
As for the Phelps, I don’t want them or anyone else to be victims of violence.
But, damn, if they don’t quit hitting a hornet’s nest with a stick, they’re bound to get stung . . .
Fred Phelps has been a headache to the great kansas landscape we all enjoy. on the same side as free speach, shouldn’t people be allowed to worship an mourn where and whom the choose. It sounds to me like and dare i say it, we already hear it to much, Harassment. Religious Harassment. we after all can call most things harassment, and make laws reguarding them. why not now, when large groups are involved
ProudLiberal, dare we speak of Kansas’ skyrocketing debt under the careful watch of all those conservative R’s we sent to Topeka?
I guess it doesnt matter as long as legislative time and resources are spent to put those damn queers in their place. We are so lucky to be safe from gay marriage even though our state debt ranking has gone from uh…what to what?
Why does the thought “fiddling while Rome burns” come to mind? You are right ProudLiberal, they spend like conservatives in Topeka too.
Disagreeing with Hecker = Intolerance
Disagreeing with Heckler = Intolerance
I wonder what would happen if the Patriot Guard made a bunch of large banners with American flags on one side (toward the civilized people) and passages from the exposes on the reverse sides (toward the Phelps barbarians). I wonder how Pharisee Phred would like seeing all the stories of abuse plastered on big signs for all to see.
Farm Gal,You’re right. Problem is, tight budgets and eliminating waste are only trotted out at elections. Any party that has control of the purse strings will have them open and the purse upended immediately upon assuming office. Take your choice- tax and spend liberals or borrow and blow conservatives!All the ruckus about them awful gays denigrating marriage and having abortions while worshipping satan and committing terrorism is just to keep you looking the other way while they loot the treasury.
ProudLiberal ksfarmggrl
Off topic but, congress controls the budget, Reagan was faced with a house and senate that where controlled by Democrats, except for 2 yrs IIRC when R’s controlled the senate. Reagans tax cuts brought a 15% increase in revenue, congress’ spending increased by 25%.
As for the spending of Bush and the R’s in congress now, they’ve forgotten the principals of the people who got them where they are. I would say get rid of them all, but don’t trust the D’s to do any better.
ksfarmggrl Rage
“And that doesnt make Terry and Joe similar? As Rage said, they are separated only by degree.”
Would it not be accurate to say that abortion and murder are seperated only by degree?
Ben,I love it, but Phelps would probably file a dozen or so frivolous lawsuits against them if they did. That’s his favorite tactic against anyone who dares oppose him. Before they do it, they need to find a good lawyer that has reason to go after him, and would work pro bono. I’m sure there are a fair few who would like nothing better!
It will be interesting to see what happens when they picket the miner’s funerals. They’ll be dealing with some pretty hardy folks down south, Phelps may not find the hospitality he enjoys in Kansas.It’s time for those who oppose him to speak out about the law that’s not enforced here, and if it’s not enforceable, then the law should change so that it is. It’s time that the bullies to be shut out. It’s time for good people to stand up and facilitate the right of families to grieve in peace.
damoon
I havent heard what their twisted logic is for picketing the miners funeral have you?
They’re saying that God killed the miners to punish America for tolerating homosexuality. It’s their rationale for every disaster that hits this country.
Right, this is the old Republican spin . . . “congress controls the budget, Reagan was faced with a house and senate that where controlled by Democrats, except for 2 yrs IIRC when R’s controlled the senate. Reagans tax cuts brought a 15% increase in revenue, congress’ spending increased by 25%.”
It was crap then and it’s crap now. Here’s why: Reagan’s recommended budget that he sent to Congress was virtually the same level of spending that was passed.
AND
If Reagan didn’t like that level of spending, he could have vetoed it and shut down the gov’t like Clinton did.
Nice try . . . but not good enough.
Also does your assertion that Reagan’s tax cuts “increased revenue” take into account inflation during the eight years Reagan was in office?
No, it doesn’t. When you keep dollars constant, the revenues didn’t go up.
When Gietzen shows his rump its a GOP story. When Freddy does how come its not tied to the democrats? Gietzen stands no better chance of winning a GOP race than Phelps does a D race.
Very simple Marty – Gietzen is and has been a factor in the KS Republican Party. He has held offices within that Party. Phelps is not and has not.
Unlike Geitzen in the R party, Fred Phelps couldnt get elected dog catcher in the Democratic Party. Now if we could only get that to be true about Jan Pauls….
Heckler, if your religions dictates that life begins at conception, then I guess abortion and murder are only separated by degree. If you believe that life begins at birth, then I guess that would not be true.
Despite our heated exchanges today, Heck, I want you to know that both the Flying Spagetti Monster and I love you. May you be touched by his noodly appendage.
Ramen!
By the way, Heckler, is “IIRC 2 years” code-language for six years? That’s how long Republicans controlled the Senate.
ksfarmggrl
Spaghetti is good.
If you look at it in purely scientific terms, there is virtually no difference between murder and abortion. You’ve ended a human life whether that life was at 25 weeks of gestation or 40, little difference.
Galahad
What was the rate of inflation at the end of Carters term, at the end of Reagans term.
Just a reminder in case anyone wants to write to Margie:
Margie PhelpsDirector of Release PlanningKS Dept of Corrections900 SW Jackson, 4th Floor, LSOBTopeka, KS 66612-1284
margiep@kdoc.dc.state.ks.us
Heckler – adding to Rage’s comments: The coalition of Republicans and Dixiecrats controlled the house during that period as well. Those Dixiecrats (such as Rove, DeLay, etc) now openly identify themselves as Republicans.
OFF TOPIC WARNING:I am pretty sure that Rove has always been a Republican. I don’t know about Delay.
Rove tells a story about getting beat up by a girl who caught him with a Goldwater button. That experience is probably what helped create the monster that he is.
But, the facts that his alcoholic father abandoned the family and his mother sometime later killed herself probably also left some marks on him. I think it is interesting that he is always the one making fun of psychotherapy. I believe he is hoping that people won’t notice he needs some.
As Tony Soprano would say “ya could almost feel sorry for the fat f**k”, if he wasn’t so evil.
Beat up by a girl … love it!
Nobody ever bothered me with my Goldwater button.
Heckler -Slightly off topic (since Phelps seems to hate gays more than abortionists), but one more time real slow since you responded. There are real differences between aborting a fetus, existing inside a woman and fully dependent on her for every nutrient and oxygen molecule predigested and from her blood stream, and murder of a living breathing independent person. Science and my embryology text book say so. Stop lying.Re Phelps – I like the idea of the media stopping feeding the monster, and the same goes for Fox et al. The media is complicit because it like keeping the controversy going.
Allie, et al., who’ve made the point about Fred seeking media attention, there is no doubt this is true. I can’t remember who the media person was, but I recall some radio or TV journalist commenting on how Fred told her that by interviewing him, her ratings would go up.
He and family should be shunned.
Wikipedia says Delay was always Republican, and that accords with my memory. But many other House Dixiecrats did make the switch, most notably Phil Gramm and Billy Tauzin. I remember them specifically, and Wikipedia backs me up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Gramm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tauzin
Hey, I forgot about this part! It did indeed happen. Check it out (Wikipedia again):
“In 1981, Gramm attended Democratic Caucus budget meetings and then secretly shared their strategy with Republicans to help pass newly inaugurated President Ronald Reagan’s budget. In response, the House Democratic leadership stripped him of his seat on the committee. Following this action, Gramm resigned his House seat and successfully ran to fill the vacancy as a Republican, becoming the first Republican to represent the district since its creation”
Regarding the comparison between Phelps and Wright/Fox…you are right that Phelps is a major wackjob while the other two are garden variety nutcases. What makes the comparison is the influence they have over the actions of others. It’s dangerous, and scary.
And now Wright/Fox want to harm kids by straining the foster/adoption system even more?!? Makes my blood boil to think about it. I loved the Lincoln quote, because although I am but one wholly unextraordanary person, I will be shouting from the rooftops and going door to door myself to squash their initiative.
Why not take a cue from our illustrious president where Phelp’s protests are concerned? Put the protesters in a pen a couple of miles away and make sure that those attending a funeral sign a Loyalty to the Deceased paper, which, as George sees it, covers the problem of allowing or not allowing free speech.
Todd, I’ve read the link you posted or at least one similar. Made me shudder.
Allie
I watched both of my children born by C-section from 3 feet away. My daughter at 38 weeks and my son at 35 weeks. My major was in engineering not biology or embryology but I am reasonably certain that between the moment the doctors knife touched my wifes uterus and the moment the doctor pulled him out of that same uterus 45 seconds later no magical mystical phase change occured that changed him from a “fetus” to a baby boy name Matthew. He was a baby boy named Matthew the moment before that knife cut flesh, and he was a baby boy named Matthew the moment after that knife cut flesh. I defy you to explain to me what biological or genetic change occured to him in that 45 seconds( that seemed like 20 minutes)that changed him from a lump of flesh into a baby boy named Matthew. A change in the source of his dependence for sustenance does not change the nature of his physical being.
The law may differentiate between, sucking a babys brains out while he or she is still inside their mothers body, and sucking their brains out after they have moved 6 inches and their head is outside their mothers body. But scientifically they are still a human life. I’m in no position to state this as FACT but if I had to guess I’d say that God does not make such differentiations.
Allie,I have to agree with Heckler on this one: when it comes to abortion arguments, they boil down to two. The first is those who believe in the Fetus theory, that the fetus isn’t a human until scientists say so, and those who believe that the “fetus” is a human being from the moment of conception.
Your comment, “but one more time real slow since you responded” shows me that you think you are correct. But talking down to people who think they are correct accomplishes nothing. Are you attempting to prove that you’re “smarter,” more “wordly” than Heckler?
Heckler made very valid points in his argument, and stated his beliefs in a clear, concise manner and with conviction. While you may not agree with him, he hardly sounds like he deserves your “but one more time real slow since you responded” statement.
Walker -I am tired of this same lame argument that falsely implies that only their view has scientific backing. The differences I am pointing out are obvious and simple. I strongly disagree with the statement, “If you look at it in purely scientific terms, there is virtually no difference between murder and abortion.” I believe that this is untrue scientifically and the reasons are simple. I suppose you see no condescension in “if you look at it in purely scientific terms” (as opposed to the false, impure, unscientific ways others might look at it to be pro-choice) and equating the legal right to abortion with illegal murder. You are right, he didn’t outright call me and others who believe in or have had an abortion murderers, just not different from them, scientifically, of course.Heckler-I don’t believe in magic or mystery either, but a number of things did happen. First, the child emerged from your wife’s uterus. For the first time, he occupied a space that was not wholly within another person. He had existed not just inside her uterus as though there is some magic free space that is his inside her, but early on his zygote had buried itself into her endometrium and created with her resources the amniotic space from within her flesh. You saw him and could touch him for the very first time. But more changes occurred – The course of his bloodstream changed significantly from bypassing his unused lungs to passing all blood through them to become oxygenated. To do this two structures, one in his heart and one in his aorta, had to close quickly. The lungs quickly inflated and he took his first breath and so began a lifetime of breathing like all the rest of us. His oxygen and CO2 were no longer exchanged with his mother’s blood. He probably cried for the first time, finally able to because of the air now in his lungs. Nurses probably wiped of his vernix which had protected him in his aqueous environment since now he for the first time existed in a gaseous environment like the rest of us. The doctor or perhaps you first cut his umbilical cord. He was like the rest of us no longer attached to a placenta (a hybrid of cells genetically his and your wife’s that had fused him to her). Now, he, like the rest of us, would use his stomach and intestines to receive nutrients instead of receiving them by placental exchange. Though he may have had a bowel movement very close to birth (not of digested food and bacteria like ours but of gut lining cells, secretions, etc.) he may have his first now. He will now continue to have bowel movement to get rid of waste instead of them being reabsorbed by the placenta and excreted by the woman. He beheld for the first time a lighted world shapes and movements foreign to him in the uterus. He did hear sounds in utero, but now for the first time they are not muffled and overwhelmed by the beating of your wife’s heart. You can now talk to him instead of through your wife’s stomach. You are finally introduced to an independent, breathing person whom you can hold and interact with. You may have hoped very much for this child and named him, imagined a future with him, but that was all in the future that begins with birth. That is why we consider birth so special and commemorate and reckon our ages from our birthday not our date of conception. You are going to say, but a 35 week fetus is as capable of doing all these things if it were born as my son was. Fine, I am not going to fight you wildly on late term abortions (where you have drawn this argument by claiming no difference between a 35 week fetus and baby born at 35 weeks) unless you say they can’t be done for women’s health. 90% of abortions are at only 12 weeks gestation. The differences between your son and a 12 week fetus are even greater that these here, and before a minimum of 22 weeks a fetus simply can’t do the things that I have outlined that are necessary for being independent persons.
Oh, I forgot – a change in genetic experession will begin to occur. The fetus expresses one type of hemoglobin. A change in gene expression quickly after birth will cause the amount of fetal hemoglobin to decrease dramatically (adults produce some, but very little) and hemoglobin b will begin to be produced. Also, the fetal adrenal cortex will disappear by the 3rd month after birth, to be replaced by a mature one. Though these genes are carried with us, their is a change in genetic expression to accomplish it. Does this matter? Yeah, genetic expression matters more than carrying the gene, we share 97% of our genetic matterial with chimps, but our genetic expression is what makes us different.
Allie
My point is simple. By calling an unborn child a “fetus” we dehumanize it. To say that human life begins at birth, whether that birth occurs at 24 weeks or 42 weeks, is a legal definition not a scientific definition.
Do changes occur in body processes immediatly following birth? Sure, but that child is just as alive 1 minute before birth is it is 1 minute after birth it’s just in a different environment. And it can breath.
If abortion supporters can make themselves better by lying to themselves, making utterly illogical statements that are demonstrably false thats fine, but they’re only fooling themselves.
What difference does it make if a human is dependant or independant on someone else for life? Abortion is the termination of a human life, no matter what.All the intellectualization, rationalization, justification, etc. doesn’t cahnge that. Abortion is what it is and nothing else.At least be honest, if you condone abortion, then you believe it’s justifiable to take a human life, for whatever reason.Saying that a human being is not a person until the mother “grants it personhood” is just pro choice rethoric, it has no bearing on truth.
Now what about Fred?
You’re right, heckler. It’s amazing how some will lie to themselves so they can live with their conscience. If something is too offensive, let’s just pretend it’s something else.
Back to Phelps-Do you think that we also are complicit because humans (and Phelps is a great example) like to be morally outraged? I think that is part of why the news gives it to us, because we will watch. Phelps is a touch stone that causes strong emotions on both sides. There are those who passionately agree with him and those who can equally passionately hate him. I suppose there are some who are indifferent, but the extreme positions make us feel good to know exactly what we are against. It is a similar thing, though to degree. I think people adhere to Wright and Fox (and Phelps) more passionately than to some moderate bland pastor preaching tolerance because they can know exactly what they should be against and get all worked up against it. And we sorta like the adrenalin rush it produces. Neither side needs to deal with any ambiguity – they are all right or all wrong, period. Hey, Heckler and Walker both know I will do it over abortion.
Those who claim to have scientific backing for their view on when life begins are wrong. When life begins is not a scientific but a philosophical question, and there are at least as many answers as there are philosophers.My personal view, after raising three kids, is that they don’t become independent life-forms until they leave home!
Allie,Maybe you’re tired of the “same old argument” because you still don’t understand it. In some peoples minds, a child is a human being from conception, and should be afforded all rights associated with the United States Constitution and the Bill Of Rights.
In others, it is a fetus and has no rights and the mothers superseeded those of the fetus, as dictated by a government.
There is no middle ground . . . Period!
What is it about that difference that you find so difficult to comprehend or get so tired of hearing? Conscience maybe?
To me, the whole reason behind the pro-abortion crowd is off base. By their reasioning, we should be able to do any drugs we want, commit suicide, or attempt it with, no government intervention, and without having to spend time in some institution, sell our body parts with no government oversite, etc, etc, etc. A womans right to abort a child? I, for one, don’t think so.
The argument I get tired of hearing is, “Let the pro-lifers adopt the babies.” Ever try to adopt in this country? The process is enough to turn off the most desperate couples. I know of one couple who went through a ten year process, spent thousands of dollars on paperwork, fees, lawyers and travel expenses, only to have the child they wanted denied them because the mother had a change of heart. They ended up adopting a child from overseas. It was cheaper, and took two years. Couple and son are doing great.
Change your argument; your current one basically sucks.
Heckler-It makes a huge difference to me if a fetus is fully dependent on my life and resources. You dehumanize women to say that their participation in pregnancy and birth and their bodily autonomy are less important that a zygote. Inside a woman’s bodily organ and outside it is more than just a change of scenery. You are trivializing humans to falsely see no difference. I have shown you the differences between a breathing independent baby and a fetus and all you can say now is “oh, but that doesn’t really matter all that matters is that the fetus’ cells are engaging in cellular respiration.” Your example of 24 and 40 weeks is still within viability, where most abortions do not occur. Those are or can be live births, anything before is miscarriage (aka spontaneous abortion). As I said, I don’t get too bent on post-viability. The is a biological difference and not just a legal one – before 22 weeks they are biologically incapable of survive outside the uterus, after 22 weeks there is a chance that they can. That is biological not legal.
Damoon – That is really only your opinion about my “lying to myself” and it closes the argument. You don’t have to deal with the actual contentions because we are inherently wrong and just trying to justify. You make it only about the state of my conscience not the argument. The lies told by pro-life groups to turn abortion into something it isn’t are pretty strong, too. Many women are surprised at how not gruesome an early abortion is because they have been so lied to by the pro-life faction. They think a huge complete fetus is going to come out from their 8 week abortion and it isn’t that at all. I disagree with your slippery slope argument about not being able to differentiate murder and abortion. I am showing a clear line between fetus in utero and baby. No slippery slope: fetus and baby different, abortion and infanticide different. You are the one trying to falsely conflate the two not me. I see and will always see a big difference between abortion and infanticide.
Walker-Ah, so you are already inclined anti-abortion so you can decide what a good job Heckler does making an agrument you already agree with. Fine.
I understand the argument that some people believe that conception defines the beginning of human life. I reject the idea that the is the only scientifically valid view of human life. I don’t care if a fetus is a baby “in some people’s mind” if the fetus is really in some other woman’s uterus. Particularly if that uterus is mine. Spare me the crap about conscience; it is insulting and a sign of a weak argument if that self-righteous sanctimony is the best you can come up with. And don’t give me another lecture about not being condescending if you are going to pull that out. I get tired of hearing that your sanctimony and your view of fetal rights has bearing on what happens in my uterus. If you can take it out of my uterus, and it survive, fine, have it. Otherwise, leave me alone.
Individual rights to privacy and body are pretty important to us as a country. I only care about what people do with their bodies when it does affect another individual human being. Drunk driving is not ok, though drinking is, because it kills separate individuals. There actually isn’t a law against drinking while pregnant (only a surgeon general’s warning) though it messed the fetus up. Are you going to put me in a comfortable prison while I gestate to make sure I don’t do anything unhealthy for the little constitutionally-empowered individual fetus? It has as many rights as I do. There is a law against assisting in suicide, not committing it (the argument on psychiatric holds is that the person is not in a rational frame of mind to make such a decision for other psychiatric reasons (e.g. mania, depression, etc) not suicide per se). Laws about my body and my sexual activity are way wrong, constitutionally. A father is constitutionally protected from being required to give his child his blood in a trasfusion to save its life, but a woman? No her right to bodily integrity and determination isn’t worth crap if she is pregnant.
I didn’t make the anti’s should adopt the babies argument. However, I do think it is reasonable to say that if we are going to be a society that demands women birth them, we should be a society that cares for the kids. And, if couples want an older child or a special needs child, it won’t take 10 years. Let me guess they got an infant, probably caucasian or asian descent. A healthy, pretty, baby that will grow up to satify all their needs for self-adulation when it is smart or athletic or whatever.
Allie
“I didn’t make the anti’s should adopt the babies argument. However, I do think it is reasonable to say that if we are going to be a society that demands women birth them, we should be a society that cares for the kids. And, if couples want an older child or a special needs child, it won’t take 10 years. Let me guess they got an infant, probably caucasian or asian descent. A healthy, pretty, baby that will grow up to satify all their needs for self-adulation when it is smart or athletic or whatever.”
Talk about condescending and insulting. That was about the most ridiculous statement by a supposed intelligent human being as I have ever read. Self adulation? A couple can’t have child naturally, so they want to adopt and you have the tamerity to use that as an argument? Your arguments hold no water.
Walker-My point is that there are a large number of children in foster homes and in need of adoption who are older children, physically or mentally handicapped, or of an “undesirable” ethnicity. I get tired of people whinning about the wait and hassles of adoptions when really it is because they want a cute little white one. I use this argument when people whine about the trouble adopting, which is exactly what you were doing. If the shoe fits . . . you haven’t mentioned the ethnicity and health of the child they adopted. I don’t naively believe that every couple that adopts is a saint-in-training who just wanted a child, any child, to love. I am happy that they were able to adopt the child they wanted, but don’t blame the American adoption process that couldn’t provide one to their specifications. I know of a otherwise healthy child that couple after couple turned down because she had a major but not life-threatening or disabling disease. My saints are the couple that took in a 4 yr. old black child with spina bifida. and got ring worm from holding him.
Allie,The presentation of arguments means everything. Excellent post. Your saints are my saints also. My friends tried to adopt a black child. They fell in love with her, but wern’t allowed to adopt her because they are white. Tell me that doesn’t suck.
It is too bad that this kind of racism still exists. There are many out there who would love to a handicapped child a home, but the adoption rules and regulations are so stifeling, it’s a wonder any child in this country can get adopted.
We disagree on abortion, but I think we have common ground here. Thank you.
Allie, it seems the only way to justify abortion to yourself is to dehumanize the fetus and deny it’s life. If you honestly believed that an unborn fetus is alive and human, would you still be such an advocate of abortion on demand?What about a late term abortion? You always minimize the incidence, but it does happen more often than most would think. If a fetus is viable outside the womb, then does the mother still have the same right to terminate it’s life?Or does she only have that right if the child is malformed in some way?Do you plan to give a home to “hard to adopt” children, or does your pro choice ideology let you off the hook when it comes to being responsible for them?In my experience, those who concerned themselves with the needs of children, including those who have adopted older and “hard to place” children, have also been pro life.
LEAVE MY GOOD FRIEND FRED ALONE. HE TELLS IT LIKE I SEE IT!
I’m going to jump in on the Phelps topic, though it appears I might be a little too late–we’ve managed to jump ship!I think it’s very dangerous to try and equate Phelps with conservative Republicans (like Fox and Wright. I’m no fans of theirs, but the comparison is cruel). According to the link that Todd posted above, during his law “career” Phelps saw himself as a liberal Democrat, championing the rights of blacks (while scamming them out of money). Well, we don’t want any association with him. Neither do conservative republicans. I think it’s a huge insult to Republicans to lump Phelps into their party because of the gay marriage issue. Phelps is a narcissistic, sadistic monster, not a representation of any political party.
From the already mentioned link:
“The prophet of hate grins broadly when asked how it feels being the target of so much hatred himself now:
“You guys don’t seem to understand what motivates me.” He chuckles. As usual, a Bible verse serves as his answer. “Blessed are ye when men shall hate you and revile you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad: for great is your reward in heaven.” Phelps seems giddy, His words roll off his tongue in a Mississippi drawl tinged with excitement. “I love them to death,” he says of those who criticize him. “If they weren’t doing that, how am I going to get all that ‘great is your reward in heaven’? If you are preaching the truth of God, people are going to hate you. And they can’t often or always articulate why, and so they fall back on specious, insincere and false reasons for why they hate you. And you swim in a sea of lies. And I love it!” ”
This is exactly why he needs a media blacklist. Pull the plug on his spotlight–that’s the worst possible punishment for this monster.
Amen, Tara.
Tara, maybe I missed it (this will be mesg #92–nope, #93–hi, JM–whew!), but who equated Phelps with the Republican party? It bears remembering that Jan Pauls is a Democrat as well.
Terry Fox may not as mentally unstable or obnoxious as Phelps, but precisely because of that–and his appalling degree of influence–he’s a lot more dangerous. His issues go far beyond gay marriage. IMHO, Joe Wright doesn’t have quite the same notariety (yet).
I agree that the press would do well to ignore Phelps and his antics. Let the police handle it when he crosses the line.
Fred shouldn’t be protesting the soldiers – he and everyone else associated with his “church” shoud bow down and thank the soldiers.
After all, it is their sacrifice that guarantees him the right to be an ass.
Without the soldiers that have given their who have fought, and in some cases, died for thier country, he would be jailed and possibly executed for his protests.
Do not confuse this as an attempt to support this person. I personally think that his views are a little warped and to protest at a funeral in God’s name is just blasphemous.
WOW We seem to have gone wildly off thread here.
Let me get back to the thread.
To my mind, Heckler, Damoon, (I’m sure I miss some posters here…..long thread), Wright, Fox, Phelps are ALL of the same cut. They got their own idea of what “God” says. As an athiest, I hold no such limitations as my own “channel to “God”"
So as the thread concerned Phelps, I’d just like to remind all of you who claim to speak for God that Phelps is your boy. Yup.I know it hurts but he is a reflection of YOU.
Now I don’t find except in the most extreme (insane?) fringes in these posts any support for the sick Phelps family. But what I do find is many others who take the same tac as he and his deluded followers do. Namely “God says I’m right. And if God says I’m right I can’t be wrong!”
Phelps and his folk should be UNIVERSEALLY reviled. I would GLADLY cast a stone against him and his. But for those who espouse the same “faith” as Phelps, I think you better look at yourselves before you cast a stone. But for sanity there go you?
Walker-That sucks, and I have heard a couple of these comments in Kansas usually in the abortion debate, though my friends that adopted a special needs black child did it in Kansas. I know of a number of inter-racial adoptions in other states. Maybe it depends on who you are dealing with.Damoon-I believe its cells are as alive and made as much of human genetic material as mine are. So, yeah, alive and human, still ok with abortion. I believe in the right to abortion because a fetus isn’t capable of even basic independence, interaction, and most if not all of the things that make individual people individuals. I guess I just don’t sentimentalize fetushood as much as you do. It isn’t capable of existing outside of the womb, like I am; so its “mother” can have an abortion, and since I am not in her womb, my mother can’t “abort” me. She probably would kick me out of the house if I still lived at home though.I minimize late term abortion to keep us in perspective since the anti’s pretend like all abortions are like that (all their pictures are late (and often faked), graphic depictions of so-called partial birth abortion). Roe protects first trimester abortion rights. I think women should be able to have late term abortions for maternal health (including mental health) and deformities incompatible with life (yeah, not downs). I think women and their doctors and not laws (though which I can imagine an inquisitional style board being created) are the best ones to decide when and why a late term abortion should occur. I don’t want a bunch of total strangers deciding exactly what risk of death I should be forced to bear to appease their over-active self-righteous “consciences.”Well, we have different experiences with adoption. My experiences with foster and challenging adoptions in the US has been by loving, caring people but not necessarily pro-life and even more rarely rabidly so. I have known one who adopted a bi-racial (though otherwise healthy) child because they were pro-life. They were actually a little disappointed that they didn’t get something more edgy. Not kidding, I thought that was almost as self-interested as only wanting white. And they are annoyingly self-righteous about it, too. My personal plans have not included children or plans for them thus far. I couldn’t conscience adopting a healthy white child when I know what kind of kids really need homes. I have travelled in the 3rd world enough to not want to pluck one child out to win the US grand prize lottery and leave all the rest there. Whether I have my own is still up in the air. Neither my boyfriend nor I am 100% committed to the idea. My pro-choice stance doesn’t let me off the hook because I believe we are all responsible for caring for them (i.e. I actually believe in taxes). I also believe that people with the means and dedication for it should provide loving homes for any child. I don’t have those right now; and no, I don’t think you can force people whether pro-choice or pro-life to do that if they don’t have the heart and stamina for it. It isn’t good for the child, but I don’t want them whining about the adoption service either.
I agree with Tara that Phelps isn’t the child of any one party. I’ve heard the media call him in the anti-war croud, which is pretty unfair. I don’t even think we should pin him on the evangelicals, or even Christians. He is clearly far off from any rational reading of the Bible, no matter how literal. His tactics are still deplorable even if you believe his basic contention (not that I am justifying that either). But, I think it is up to more centrist Chrsitians to denounce his remarks certainly, and Fox and Wright to the extent that they also do not speak for all Christianity as hard as they may try to say they do. JR is right and wrong. Phelps is not a reflection of Christianity but he claims to be. Therefore, Christians must deal with him.
If you dont see the sameness of Terry, Joe and Fred, you are in complete denial of the facts. Once again, they differ only by degree. Their messages are the same, even if their tactics are different. Terry and Joe are just Fred with more money and more followers.
I guess for you christians, middle class hatred is so much easier to accept. But really, how many different ways can you say “god hates fags”? You might be saying it with prettier words, but the message is the same.
Poor, pitiful, majority christian taliban that rules the U.S. and the world. How can you whine about being persecuted when you control the money, the republicans, the state, the military, SCOTUS, etc? What the hell more do you want?
Oh, I forgot. The blood of everyone who questions you. That is your proud christian history isnt it? When was the last time a gay person beat one of you to death? Where oh WHERE are the lesbian avengers when you need them? Fighting in Iraq I guess…until they get discharged and killed AFTER they come home.
Keep it up Terry, Joe and Fred. You are the best gay recruiting tool there is when people look at you and your followers and wonder what the alternative is.
Jesus, please…save me from your followers.
Farmgrrl, nice post, but “gay recruiting tool”? You might have included a wink. Of course I realize the membership drives haven’t been too successful lately. ;-)
Allie,I would venture a guess that over 95% of all christians in this country abhor the disgusting rants of the infamous Terry, Joe and Fred. Real Christians would have nothing to do with those morons.
But there is that 5% that will give Christians a bad name. And those are just as bad as Terry, Joe and Fred. And don’t forget Pat Robertson: Wishing death by God on someone qualifies one as a moron in my book.
Sorry Rage, that was clumsily worded.
Lol Walker, there is no room for more hate in the “unholy” trinity of Terry, Joe and Fred. But you are right about ol’ Pat. He’s a real standard bearer for all those loving christians.
This was the question that started this thread. If people dont agree with the four horsemen of hate, why dont they speak out against their words instead of defending them?
Good people could speak without restricting the speech of the american taliban. It isnt an either or. We just need the voices of good people to drown out these missionaries of misery.
Heckler–you’re apparently not aware that Geo. W. in his cocaine days got his girlfriend pregnant and arranged for an illegal abortion at a Houston hospital?
That’s how wealthy and connected people did it before abortion was legalized here like in every other industrialized country. Poor women were just stuck with an unwanted child.
Walker-I agree that a vast majority of Christians disagree with him, but that doesn’t make him not a Christian problem. It won’t mean anything for atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindu’s, and Buddhists to denounce him. He is claiming Christianity not Buddhism. Christians, if they looked, would have plenty in the Bible to denounce his tactics and beliefs. His not being their fault doesn’t make him not their problem. Pat Robertson needs to be off the air. A couple times I have seen the disclaimer – The programming does not reflect the views of this station, its managers, etc. Then – the 700 club. If you have to put that disclaimer up, take it off the air. No one has free speech rights to have a television show.He has had his say.
PL,Poor women weren’t always stuck with an unwanted child. From the mid-1940’s to ‘73, there were four chiropractors here in Wichita whose practice was almost exclusively abortions (D & C’s), and they charged about $25 for one, and if the woman couldn’t come up with that, maybe $10. One, at least, did abortions for the poorest women for free.The difference between then and now is that when the inevitable mistake was made, most patients refused to go to the E.R. until it was too late to save them , because they’d be subject to arrest and prosecution.
To pin Phelps on the Christian faith is just wrong. Christianity is just a mask worn by a madman when it comes to Phelps. To read the link upthread about Phelps is a decent into insanity. Fox and Wright get painted with the same brush as Phelps? Convenient, but wrong. Phelps is insane. Wright and Fox are just a couple of religious wonks. They’re what you get in a close-minded place like Kansas. When you say that Christians need to deal with Phelps, Wright, and Fox, you miss the point. We All have to deal with them, as they affect ALL of our lives.
And those of you who have no faith (athiest) need to get off of slaming Christians. It really doesn’t serve your interests.
Excuse me, Allie. “Pat Robertson needs to be off air”? Didn’t Terry try to do that to “Daniel” until the voices of reason drowned him out?As much as I can’t stand Pat Robertson, if no one watched him, he would be off the air. What’s scary is, like Terry and Joe, he has such a following of believers. It’s getting pretty depressing for anyone who believes in equality and justice for all of our citizens.
I think the time to “just ignore” people like Fred is over. They need to be shouted down and put in their place, the last thing we need is this kind of hatred in our country. The only difference between Fred and the others is they are more subtle and manipulative with their prejudice and intolerance.
Just to clarify: I oppose anyone who endorses mindless hatred (Christian, druid or whatever). The history of Christianity HAS been an evil, bloody one, but the same was true of the officially atheist Soviet Union.
I don’t apologize to anyone for acknowledging that Christian supremacists (as opposed to most Christians) are a problem, and they’re running the show right now, and at least CLAIM to be the majority.
XXX–I will try to be a little less snarky here out of my respect for you. You said “To pin Phelps on the Christian faith is just wrong.”
Well gee X, they dont have any trouble pinning every pervert or pedophile in the world on the entire gay community do they?
You said “Fox and Wright get painted with the same brush as Phelps? Convenient, but wrong.” See above
“And those of you who have no faith (athiest) need to get off of slaming Christians. It really doesn’t serve your interests.”
I am not an athiest. I believe in the Flying Spagetti Monster. Seriously X, you are probably right. I apologize for holding a mirror up to those so called christians who treat the entire gay community this way every minute of every day. Not very pretty, is it? Did you feel how we feel every day in Kansas?
I’ll take my own advise here about two wrongs not making a right. But the next time somone insults gay people, remember what this felt like.
We have some more enlightened pastors here in Wichita (e.g. Michael Poage), but I expect they’re not very common in Western Kansas. . . .
Wouldn’t it be great if we just saw people for themselves instead of trying to label, stereotype, or define them by sex, race, religion, politcal affiliation, sexual orientation, nationality, etc?It would be so cool to see the person first instead of our preconceived notion about who and what they are.Sorry, I’m just dreaming.
I talked to the flying spaghetti monster today, and he assured me he was going to fly in and kick Phelps ass. Tickets on sale at http://www.iwannakickyerass.com
Ksfarmgrrl, while I’m far from being a “good” Christian, I am Christian and I’m also a social Liberal. Like a lot of my compatriots in the mainstream of Christianity, I do not support the right-wing religious fanatics.
“Well gee X, they dont have any trouble pinning every pervert or pedophile in the world on the entire gay community do they?”
Like most people, I have a couple of gay relatives and some gay friends. I don’t usually refer to them that way…they’re just relatives and friends to me, but it advances the point I’m making.
A comment: Ksfarmgrrl, I’ve been on this blog from the beginning. You’re the only blogger whose sexual orientation I know about for sure. I wouldn’t ask a thing like that because it’s none of my business and I don’t care what your orientation is, or anybody elses, for that matter. I think it’s great that you’re comfortable enough to be openly gay. I support that and there’s something to be said for that kind of honesty. But “In-Your-Face” homosexuality gets old. 80% or more of your posts mention your sexual orientation. Is that really necessary to make your point?
That said, I’m ashamed of my fellow believers “who treat the entire gay community this way every minute of every day.” According to the Bible, Judgement is the province of the Lord and it seems a lot of Christians forget that part. And I’m sick to my heart that 70% of Kansas voters would be in favor of such a mean spirited and hateful amendment to the state Constitution.
I don’t care whether people are straight or gay or black or white. I care about people. Period.
Damoon,He has been on for ages, and my guess is that he pays for the time slot not that his number are so wildly high. That is usually why those disclaimers are up; similar ones appear before paid commercial shows for products like Ron Pearlman’s stuff. The station is saying, we didn’t choose this but they paid us enough money to put it on.
Do you care if people are living in sin or not XXX?
Do you think Jesus would care about someone living a life of sin XXX?
You can care about people, that is great. Part of caring and being a Christian is being concerned for their salvation to is it not?
Just wondering…
X-If you think I am comfortable being openly gay, think again. I was fired from my job last year because I took a day of vacation and testified publicly in the legislature against the hate amendment. I fear for my life and property every day in this great state. No stickers on my truck.
However, I think it is important to put my own fear and loathing aside for people to know that there really are gay people who live in western Kansas. Really. And we really do have legitimate rights to speak from our perspective. Count the number of christians posting here, and count the number of openly gay posts. Who is guilty of overkill?
I also wonder if in doing your research on my posts, you noticed that I am usually on topic. If that topic is an issue concerning gays or so called christians, I do feel free to let you know where my comments originate.
Why is it that when I discuss my life and life in Ks from the perspective of one gay person, I am in your face, but when seemingly every other post in here regards christians and their supremacy, that isnt in your face? You dont think Terry, Joe and Fred are not in our faces? Do we not have a right to correct false infomation and issue alternative perspectives? According to you, only if we dont speak of “the love that dares not speak its name”.
I get really tired of the “all christians all the time” in Kansas. Yeah, I know, the next poster here will say “love it or leave it”. From the voting with your feet tally, it looks like lots of folks agree with me and are leaving. How is that working for ya Kansas?
X, I think the truth from my perspective makes you uncomfortable. We are here, we are queer, get used to it. We arent going away, and you will hear more from us. I intend to make you uncomfortable in your prejudices. Sounds like you didnt like that mirror.
And as for you and your fellow christians, well, I kinda feel like you do on the overkill. So how is this for a change on perspective.I dont mind straight people if they will just shut up and act gay in public! Sound familiar X?
Oh and Nathan, I will take care of my own salvation thank you very much. You take care of yours.
Do you care that people are living their lives in hate and smug superiority that is contrary to the teaching of Jesus?
Good grief. I never though of John Prine as a spiritual advisor, but does anyone remember this?
“Now Jesus dont like killin’, no matter what the reason’s for, and your flag decal wont get you into heaven anymore.”
Could we substitute “hate” for “killin’”?
X,As an old survivor of the civil rights movement, I was rather intrigued by your statement that “But “In-Your-Face” homosexuality gets old. 80% or more of your posts mention your sexual orientation. Is that really necessary to make your point?”I take it that it’s those “uppity” gays that bother you, the ones that are obviously gay, and you’d prefer they “passed” for straight!I’ve known gay people who did just that; they stayed far to the back of the closet, didn’t speak the word “gay,” kept their relationships a dark secret and studied things they had absolutely no interest in, such as football scores and The Swimsuit Edition, so they could pass as straight. They lived (and in a couple of cases, are still living) the lie that society wants them to, and it’s a pretty sad way to exist!Would you, for instance, live sepatately from your partner of thirty years, be afraid be seen in public with them or have your car seen parked in their driveway? Would you live every day in fear that someone might find out who you are, and who you love, and maybe beat the crap out of you, or fire or evict you, or maybe even kill you because of it?This seems to be what you are asking gay people to do when you put down “In-Your-Face homosexuality.”
Ah, where to start.
Nathan.”Do you care if people are living in sin or not XXX?”
Yes, I do care. I’m just not the One who says who’s a sinner and who’s not.
“Do you think Jesus would care about someone living a life of sin XXX?”
Unlike you Nathan, I’m not the One who makes that decision. “Judgement is mine sayeth the Lord”. Did you conveniently forget that part?
I have no use for “IN-Your-Face” Christian fanatics, either.
Ksfarmgrrl,”I was fired from my job last year because I took a day of vacation and testified publicly in the legislature against the hate amendment.”
Isn’t that against the law? Have you discussed this with a lawyer? I know, it’s Western Kansas, home of the Dark Ages.
“Count the number of christians posting here, and count the number of openly gay posts. Who is guilty of overkill?”
I don’t think “overkill” is an operative term in this context. Christianity isn’t a deviation.
“I also wonder if in doing your research on my posts, you noticed that I am usually on topic.”
Oh yes! I count you as one of the more intelligent contributors on this blog. Your posts are always well thought out and well written. That’s why I enjoy them so much.
“Why is it that when I discuss my life and life in Ks from the perspective of one gay person, I am in your face, but when seemingly every other post in here regards christians and their supremacy, that isnt in your face?”
Please take note of my statement to Nathan above. I’m not enamored of “In-Your-Face” conservatives or Liberals, either.
“X, I think the truth from my perspective makes you uncomfortable.”
Guilty as charged…on several levels. But I’m honest enough to admit it, I consider it a shortfall on my part, and I work on it. Constantly. But most of my “discomfort” is due to our penchant to discriminate against a portion of our society that does us no harm.
“I dont mind straight people if they will just shut up and act gay in public! Sound familiar X?”
I don’t believe I’ve ever stated what my sexual orientation is on this website. I never felt the need. A while back, I asked a lady out for the first time. Her first response was, “You’re not gay or anything, are you?” I was taken aback. It made me uncomfortable.
My respects, Ksfarmgrrl.
XXX
Back at ya X, I respect you too. Now here’s the rest of the story.
Actually, some local people here took up a collection, and I hired me one of them fancy Wichita lawyers. Guess what? Being gay isnt a protected status in Kansas. Under current law, they can in fact fire me for being gay, as they openly stated. That is why sexual orientation needs to be added to the state’s nondiscrimination laws.
But whether they can fire me for testifying in front of the legislature on my own time is still in question. I’ll let you ALL know how it turns out. Hence my fondness for the first amendment. :)
And in fairness, 100-200 local people showed up at 4 public meetings to protest my firing. Several local ministers and republicans spoke out on my behalf, believe it or not. I am still humbled and moved by their support. We elected a new majority on the city council in the very next election. We’ll see what happens here in November.
And none of that, the good or the bad, (and trust me, it was bad) would have happened if I had taken the easy route and just remained silent.
Jed,”I take it that it’s those “uppity” gays that bother you, the ones that are obviously gay, and you’d prefer they “passed” for straight!”
I didn’t say anything of the kind and you’re laboring under a false assumption, but nice try at setting up your arguement. I particularly enjoied your use of the term “uppity”. That changes the whole tone of the post, but it’s not an honest interpretation.
“I take it that it’s those “uppity” gays that bother you, the ones that are obviously gay, and you’d prefer they “passed” for straight!”
Is that how you “take it”? That’s quite a leap. But then, I suspect this is more about an oportunity for you to wave your Liberal credentials than to discuss any particular issue.
You seem to have come to this discussion with a lot of pre-concieved notions that have no basis in fact. Interesting, if somewhat “creative” post.
Now, let me quote something I did actually say, as opposed to what you manufactured out of a tortured logic:
“I’m not enamored of “In-Your-Face” conservatives or Liberals, either.”
X,Excuse me if I misunderstood you. The phrase “in-your-face homosexuality” is used constantly by religious bigots to describe any openly gay person. My apologies if you ment something else.
Who is “in you face”? The gay who simply wants equal protection under the law? Or the “Christian” who pickets funerals?
“The phrase “in-your-face homosexuality” is used constantly by religious bigots to describe any openly gay person.”
I wasn’t aware of that, but I’m not up on the latest “keywords” and “code phrases”. I usually just say what I mean upfront.
Jed, Ben, re-read the exchange between me and Ksfarmgrrl. It was a discussion, not an arguement. I know that’s a rare thing on this blog, but try to accept it. Nobody on either side of the discussion was insulting or demeaning. It was a free exchange of ideas. I advanced an idea, Ksfarmgrrl advanced her side of the issue, and I’m better informed because of the discussion. That’s how ideas are spread, not by “taking an attitude”.
Ben, don’t get ruffled. You missed the point.
Jed, your apoligy is appreciated and accepted.
In response to your question ksfarmgirl:
“Do you care that people are living their lives in hate and smug superiority that is contrary to the teaching of Jesus?”
Yes, I do care. I pray that people would live thier lives more according to God’s will all the time!
XXX:
Knowing what sin is and if someone is doing it or living in it has nothing to do with judgment.
Do you know what sin is XXX?
If you do then you should know if someone else is living in sin.
Trying to help someone or wanting someone to turn from their life of sin is not judgement XXX. Not agreeing with a life of sin is not judgement either.
That may be XXX but I constantly see references to these so-called “in your face gays” when I have never in fact seen one. I have known some gays over the years but would never see them as ‘in your face’ nor do I see them as a threat to my almost 35-year marriage.
I HAVE, on the other hand, seen many “in your face” gay-HATERS! Phraisee Phred Phelps is but one example.
Ben, HATE usually has it’s own outcome, usually bad.
“That may be XXX but I constantly see references to these so-called “in your face gays” when I have never in fact seen one.”
Hmm….we must move in different circles. But that’s not the point, is it? Ben’ don’t pick a fight where there isn’t one.
Nathan,”Knowing what sin is and if someone is doing it or living in it has nothing to do with judgment.”
I disagree. I think it’s all about being judgemental and it’s not your place.
“Do you know what sin is XXX?”
I think so. Do you? Based on what?
“Trying to help someone or wanting someone to turn from their life of sin is not judgement XXX.”
I doubt if you know much about that sort of thing, Nathan. You’re too busy passing judgment.
For myself, I’ll leave that to God.
On this I agree xxx: “For myself, I’ll leave that to God.”
DEFINITELY AGREE.
Well thank you, Ben. Just shows that men of honor can always find some point of agreement.