Dave Bayouth’s arena-over-the-river idea is too late and probably too expensive, but the Sedgwick County Commission was wise this week to ask arena architects for a quick assessment of the idea, just to cover all the bases and address public questions.
The river arena proposal has garnered at least some public support, although not enough to warrant spending much time and expense doing a detailed analysis.
County Manager Bill Buchanan said they’ll ask the architects for “ballpark info” on the costs and practicality of the plan. The most obvious stumbling block could be the added expense of such an ambitious engineering project.
Of course, the public still hasn’t seen the arena design plans for the east site. Those drawings, if exciting enough, could end the discussion of alternatives.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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49 Comments
Right, it’s much better to level blocks of charming historic buildings for parking lots.
When gov’t helps homeless victims of a hurricane, the right-wing calls it “socialism.”
But when gov’t forces mom & pop businesses to close and relocate, when it levels antique buildings that can never be replicated, when it forces a regressive sales tax on its citizens to pay for it–well, that’s not “socialism,” that’s civic boosterism!
Landmarks like the “Old Mill Tasty Shop” have to die so that wealthy ticket buyers can watch Brittney Spears lip-synch.
Yeah, that’s a good deal . . .
Randy: Your comments and the title, “River arena deserves quick look only,” reminds me of the old western Kansas saying, “Lets give the fellow a quick trial and then hang the guilty S.O.B.”
Remember, the downtown arena vote was a tie with about 82,000 voters voting against and a few more voting for. Since that time, I am convinced a massive shift in public opinion has taken place putting Sedgwick County voters solidly against the arena.
No shovel of dirt should be turned until a plan is produced that gets a 90% buy-in by the taxpayers.
I attended most arena public meetings since its inception and noticed the same 200 or so people in attendance, virtually all county or city employees or being paid directly or indirectly from local taxes. In other words, those people have an axe to grind to build something with that 1/4 billion dollars, right or wrong. Its purely job security.
Now, since the county’s taxpayers will be paying the 1/4 billion dollars with REGRESSIVE 20% increase in their sales taxes wherever the arena is built and in whatever configuration, there should be no rush to make a gigantic mistake. Lets listen to the real public about the matter.
One engineering reason to put an arena or any large structure near the Arkansas River is to provide for rain water runoff that is collected by its roof. If not, the arena will have the potential to flood the downtown area unless directed away by a huge pipe or drainage system which is not now in place.
You know the old saying, “water runs down hill.” That’s why Century II is located adjacent to the river.
And there is an old architectural saying, “form follows function.” So far, the proposed “function” of the downtown arena is not known to me or most taxpayers.
Is it for professional hockey and basketball? These sports in Wichita never draw more than 5,000 attendees and 50% of these are known to be “freebies,” that is, police/security, fire, medical, ticket people, building staff to set up the equipment, friends of everyone involved, etc. Same for concerts.
Is it for horse shows and agricultural shows? These people have already said they won’t move their shows downtown.
Is it for restaurants and tourist attraction type services? If so, this needs to be considered now so “form can follow function.”
A renovated Kansas Coliseum is still the correct answer for sports events and concerts with its 10,000 seats, 4,000 surface parking spaces, direct access to I-135 and adjacent thoroughfares, etc.
Wichita and Sedgwick County could use a massive face lift with a 1/4 billion dollars. Lets renew downtown Wichita, renew the main streets and drainage systems in the small towns in Sedgwick County, build the county’s major roadways to four lane thoroughfares, put a small tourist attraction/museum in all of our communities such as Derby, Haysville, Andale, Goddard and yes, even Park City.
These are not glamorous projects but in most counties, that is what County Commissioners are supposed to do … not traveling to Oklahoma City and Arkansas to measure seat sizes.
In the meantime, an honest and energetic discussion of Mr. Bayouth’s plan is a large step in the right direction.
Beautiful, JWink. Well said.
PL: This isn’t a conservative-liberal issue. Most conservatives I know are against the whole arena idea.
As I recall, it was the liberals on the Supreme Court plus one Justice O’Connor who voted to give governmental entities the power to use imminent domain powers to take away private property, not just for governmental use, but to sell or give it to other private entities who would pay more taxes?
Well said, both of you. This White Elephant will be a Black Hole for taxpayers $$$$$s for years to come.
Name suggestion: The State Ownership of the Means of Production Arena.
Outlander–I only count three “liberals” on the Supreme Court, but you’re right, I disagreed with that decision too.
Nevertheless, it’s the wealthy (or at least those with expendable income) who are going to benefit from a downtown arena.
The arena is and was a stupid idea, but hey, the electorate has spoken. The horse is out of the barn.
Too true, Todd. Lets just remember how the local Media with some invisible monied interests drove the electorate down the Stupid path. Now they are doing the same for the Casino.
If we’ve got to have this monstrosity, why not put it where the merchants are? Move it east of the tracks, and directly south of Old Town, on Douglas. That way, there’d be room for parking, and we’d get rid of a lot of old eyesores in the process!
It’s too bad the Arena isn’t being built by Capitalists. They would carry out market research etc in determining where and how to build it. Instead, it is being done by those who believe in State Ownership of the Means of Production.
Ben, No, it’s being done by contractors who want to profit off building this thing. Once it’s built, they don’t care whether it’s practical or not! Actually, if it isn’t, there’ll be contracts to be had from tearing it down and building another useless pipedream.
I was opposed to Bayouth’s idea…until Buchanan opened his mouth.
JWink,The arena is not going to cost a 1/4 of a billion dollars.Also there is no run down buildings at the east site. That area is full of run down and vacant buildings.
Yeah, the buildings are always run-down, structurally unsound and “ought to be condemned” like the old Eaton hotel.
Then somebody comes in from out-of-town, ignores all the conventional “wisdom” and rehabs the Eaton into the beginning of a downtown renaissance.
It just takes vision.
Has any of the supporters of Bayouth’s idea seen the picture? There is so many things wrong with the idea. One thing is that it is going to go over Lewis Street. What happens if there is an accident or if the city has to widen the street. It is going to be a mess.
Also how is there more parking with Bayouth’s idea? If an event happens at Century II, Lawrence Dumont and the arena where will people park? They will still have to walk at least 3 or 5 blocks.
From the picture it looks like the arena will be too large to cover the river so you will take out McClean on the west and also take out the fountains in front of the Hyatt.
I thought the idea is to see the river. I vote for the selected site even with all its drawbacks.
Yup, that way instead of having ONE site (Century II) we can’t fill or fund, we’ll have two.
Nice.
PL: you talk about vision? Sounds like maintaining the status quo is what you want. If only the “wealthy” will benefit from the arena (I don’t understand that one), who benefited from your beloved Eaton renaissance? Wealthy developers and professionals wealthy enough to live there. The East site is primarily empty lots and, yes, run down buildings. But the entire idea is redevelop the area SURROUNDING the arena–you know, the countless other run down buildings. Ask the folks in the Commerce Street Art District what the arena will do for them, then you may understand what the county (which is running the project, not developers or contractors) is trying to accomplish. Please think before you speak.
Jerry: you’ve got to be kidding me, right?? Runoff from the arena flooding the entire downtown? It’s a stressful day at work and I honestly appreciate the good laugh I got from that. However I don’t appreciate the misinformation regarding the cost of the arena, Century II’s location, or event attendance. I know you are an intelligent man so I hope you don’t actually believe anything you wrote and are just trying to stir up ignorant support of your viewpoint.
Here’s some honest and energetic discussion of Bayouth’s idea: too expensive, a logistical and engineering nightmare, too far from Old Town, no exclusive parking, and not in an area that needs extensive redevelopment.
Whoa, Steve actually constructed an argument and not his usual cheap shot . . . granted, it wasn’t a good argument, 600 dollars a month for an Eaton place apartment isn’t exactly princely, but it was an honest to gosh argument.
I’m proud of you, son.
Oh yeah, the other big difference? Eaton Place may have benefitted wealthy investors, but we didn’t have to pass an sales tax increase to pay for their profits, did we.
It’s not the wealthy I’m against. It’s the wealthy using our tax dollars that I’m against.
Steve – “the county (which is running the project, not developers or contractors)”
As I said, “The State Ownership of the Means of Production Arena.”
Lets see now, just who was it who espoused such a thing?
Good one, Ben, I love it.
You’re understanding the right-wing, Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage mindset now, my friend.
When government helps down and out individuals, that’s “class warfare,” “socialism,” “wealth redistribution” and “welfare.”
When government helps big monied interests like those supporting the arena, it’s business as usual.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
PL, I don’t think that’s the same Steve (note the suspiciously real-looking email address. . . .).
I voted against the arena, and I’m feeling both dispirited and vindicated. Sigh. . .
PL,When did Steve cheap shot anyone? From what I read on this blog this was one of his first posts. Maybe instead of critisizing the county how about looking at the good and bad points of Bayouths ideas
PL,When did Steve cheap shot anyone? From what I read on this blog this was one of his first posts.
The big monied interests you liberals speak of is very interesting. There are a few rich folks trying to get richer but that has nothing to do with left vs right. None of my conservative associates voted for the damn thing and you liberals all think we are for it. The only ones I know that are for it are The Liberal editors of this paper. Get ready for the same crap on the Casino issue.
codie – I don’t know any Liberals who favored it either. However, your Republican mayor Carlos Mayans sure did.
Steve et al: Its been a long day since I put my message on this thread this AM.
“But now my soul grows stronger, hesitating now no longer; Sir, I say, or Madam, truly your forgiveness I implore; But the fact is I was working, and so roughly you came a pounding, pounding at my office door. So loudly that I surely heard you — So now I open wide the door; No rain but darkness out there and nothing more.”
In regard to the cost, as I recall the amount of sales taxes to be raised for the arena is $184.5 million. This doesn’t include land or construction of multi-level parking lots if the public later wants them. This doesn’t include drainage across the adjacent properties for which the city will be expected to pay. This doesn’t include adding capacity to the Highway 54 flyover plus ramps to get on and off which the Kansas Highway Department will have to pay. This doesn’t include loss of property taxes, moving costs, and related costs for displacement of private businesses in the arena “footpad.” Perhaps you can suggest other costs.
In any case, the difference from $184.5 million to $250 million ($1/4 BILLION DOLLARS), isn’t a far stretch.
Regarding storm water runoff from the arena roof, assume its comparable to the Century II roof. That roof is about 520 feet in diameter or 260 feet in radius. Remember the geometry formula for area of a circle: A = pi x r squared. This gives a horizontal area of 212,264 square feet.
So if we would have a moderately heavy rain of 6 inches in one hour which is not out of the question, the non-pourous roof would eject 106,132 cubic feet of water in one hour. Of course, the roof couldn’t be allowed to retain any water because water weighs 62.4 pounds per cubic foot so 106,132 cubic feet of water rained on the roof in one hour would weigh 6,600,000 pounds! Do you want this in your bathtub? Or on the streets of downtown Wichita?
Seems like there was another objection to my original blog in this thread. Oh, it was about my attendance comments. I got that information from someone who does some support work at our various sports and entertainment events … not Steve Shaad. But he might confirm or deny my info, I don’t know.
In any case, I was told the percentage of freebies at all events is very high — to support the activity with security, medical, install and takedown equipment, arena staff, bus and truck drivers, food vendors, friends of all of the above, etc.
If a hockey game takes place and no tickets are sold for some reason, there still might be an audience of 1,000 to 2,000, all freebies.
Who gets the gate money? And the income from the ultra-expensive to build skyboxes? This depends on the deal that is negotiated. Perhaps the arena facility would only get the income on food and beverages with the gate money going to the performers/sports team. In the case of the skyboxes, they might be given away as an exchange-for-services item.
Any comments?
Keith, there have been several “Steve”s on this blog, and at least one was a particularly annoying troll. I’m thinking this Steve had contributed quite some time ago, but my memory is fuzzy.
I suppose I should have mentioned my second paragraph in my blog about two above is a poor retread from “The Raven” by Edgar Allen Poe. It partially fit the situation.
I suppose I should have mentioned my second paragraph in my blog about two above is a poor retread from “The Raven” by Edgar Allen Poe. It partially fit the situation.
And I think PL has gone off the deep end seeing trolls and Republicans behind every rock and tree. Witness the recient meltdown of Galahad vs the Steve troll. The guy knows how to write, but he’s becoming unhinged and increasingly shrill.So shoot me, but that’s my honest opinion.
I’m really glad we have anonymous around to tell us what to think. How could we survive without him. He always seems to stay one step ahead of the rest of us.
With all the public confusion surrounding the proposed downtown arena, perhaps it is time for another “non-binding” public vote as to whether the taxpaying public really wants an arena built or not. There is precedent for another vote. The first vote in the early ’90’s was “no”. That didn’t stop the second and most recent vote that was “yea”. A third vote is therefore appropriate. The wording on the ballot could read: A “yes” vote would indicate approval of a new downtown new arena, with the stipulation that a public vote be required to determine the exact location of the new arena. A “no” vote would indicate disapproval, with the provision that any sales tax money collected to date for the proposed arena be used to reduce property taxes in Sedgwick County. The Kansas Legislature should have no problem approving ex post facto legislation for a second time since “the people voted for it”. Of course, here lately, our local legislative delegation and the Sedgwick County Commission have had problems with letting people vote. I suppose they know what is best for us. Perhaps someone needs to start a petition drive for an arena “vote”.
I assure you I’m not the “Steve troll” from previous blogs. My previous post was my first, actually. While trying to avoid the troll status of the previous Steve, I do desperately want to clarify some obvious misinformation from those fanatics and cavers who just can’t let the arena issue go for some reason.
Jerry, you were such a strong force in the anti-arena campaign, I admire your persistence to keep going in the face of a solid defeat at the polls. Remember, in a democratic society, there is no “virtual” tie–majority rules, not overwhelming majority rules, my friend. I’m actually very proud of our American electoral system, and to suggest that the arena vote was somehow a tie or that people were “brainwashed” as some cavers have implied is absurd. In our system, it doesn’t matter if you win by one vote or a million. If you are not comfortable with this, perhaps consider moving to Iran or North Korea.
OK, on to more important things. Yes, the 184 million includes funds for the possible construction of a parking garage if it is determined to be necessary. Yes, the 184 million includes infrastructure improvements to the arena vicinity, including drainage. The loss of property taxes from the arena footprint (which is largely rundown buildings and undeveloped lots–which do not contribute much to city taxes) will be made up and thensome from redevelopment in the arena district–hence the idea of locating it in a rundown area to begin with. You have to remember the reason it is being built downtown–for the city and county to collect tax money off redevelopment. If the possibility of redevelopment did not exist (Bayouth’s idea) then there is no reason to have the arena downtown anyway. The arena itself will not make money–IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO. It’s the redevelopment around it that will make money.
I can’t believe I’m actually addressing this, but your rainwater argument sounds great and on casual inspection the numbers appear to work, but you must remember the arena area already expels that volume of water under a similar scenario anyway. It does not matter whether the rain falls on an arena roof or on a concrete parking lot/existing building’s roof. There are currently no unusual flooding issues in that area and are not likely to be once the arena is in place. I know some extraordinarily large buildings (such as domed stadiums) direct rain water directly into the storm sewer system. I am not sure how our arena will be designed but I assure you rainwater will not be an issue. Century II was not located next to the river for drainage purposes but was instead built there as an urban renewal project.
Finally, I know my post is getting long and I apologize, but contrary to your buddy’s comments, support staff is not factored into attendance figures at sporting events. Paid attendance only includes those attending a game that actually purchased a ticket. I am a Thunder season ticket holder and our average paid attendance so far this year is a little over 5000 (so much for the argument that these events “NEVER” attract more than 5000). Back when the Thunder won its championships, the team would frequently sell-out the Coliseum–that’s attendance over 9500. Shaady could clarify for you much better than I could about skyboxes, but the majority of these revenues actually goes to the venue. As part of the rental agreement, the sports teams get a small cut of concessions and skyboxes. I know you highly disapprove of skyboxes, but it is essential that our arena have these–in addition to naming rights, it is one of the primary ways any arena pays its bills.
Steve – the parking budget is being shifted into cost over-runs for the Arena proper as is the loss reserve fund. So, when they decide that they will have to deal with parking they will have to turn to the taxpayer for more money. Also to cover operating losses.
As for naming rights and skyboxes – I hope they will be able to sell those. However, I have my doubts. I don’t care how fancy the box is; what is going to inhabit it? Why was the decision made to NOT have Wichita State? In what other mid-size town has one of these worked without a University?
Okay, just a few loose ends to tie up:PL: I once looked into living at the Eaton. Rent starts at $700 and goes up to about $1000. In the Wichita apartment market, this is considered high-end. And to put the Eaton argument to rest, contrary to any left OR right wing conspiracy theories, the arena is not being built by developers or contractors. The “wealthy”, therefore, is not using our tax money. Please, for your own good, stop thinking you are being victimized by the Man.
All: Why the liberal/conservative branding in the arena debate? During the Vote Yea campaign it seemed to me there was support across a broad spectrum of the population, from economic class to race to gender to ethnicity. Actually, it was quite inspiring to see so many different people coming together for a common cause. I am assuming the anti-campaign was just as broad.
Finally, wasn’t this originally supposed to be about Bayouth’s idea? Maybe this just goes to show the anti-arena folks don’t really care about it and just want the opportunity to beat a dead horse instead. Anyway, maybe nobody has any clue what it entails to support a structure the size of the arena. My suspicion that sinking pilings into the river to support a building that would weigh millions of tons would be prohibitively expensive was confirmed by a friend of mine who is an engineer. Besides, placing a building on top of the river in the name of beautification would be no different than building the arena in Riverside park for the same reason. It makes no sense.
Anon–They had no problem saying people had a right to vote with the “I hate gays” amendment. Funny how we are only allowed to vote on some things, but others, well, we dont need to vote because our “leaders” have already decided. Kansas hypocracy has no limits.
Ben, it is true, the county may decide to use parking garage funds for another purpose. Currently, they are examining whether or not to build the arena with double concourses (not a cost overrun). However, if the county decides not to build the parking garage, then it is a dead issue–one will NOT be built, and at no cost then to the taxpayer.
As far as naming rights, the county was approached by at least two companies before they even began marketing the rights. Currently, there are reportedly two regional and one national company interested. It does not appear they will have any problem selling these rights. Skyboxes, or suites, are often sold to companies (not necessarily individuals) and used for a variety of functions, including employee and client gatherings and recruitment. I beg for an update, but last I knew suites in our arena will sell for around $12,000. By comparison, skyboxes in the Pepsi Center in Denver sell between $175,000 and $300,000. As you can see, our suites are a bargain and Wichita hosts scores of companies that may be interested beyond the laundry list of banks and aircraft companies headquartered here.
Well said, ksfarmgrrl. I disagree with Anonymous about the arena vote, but I share a lack of understanding why the county commission suddenly doesn’t want us to vote on things, especially a casino. I’m sure it has something to do with the fact it would pass and they don’t want that.
Steve – the County has already said they are diverting the money originally promised for parking and loss reserve. So, when parking hits the fan …
As for all those revenues from naming and boxes – I’ll believe it when I see it. I’ve already suggested my favorite name for it.
Ben, almost forgot about your WSU concerns. WSU chose not to participate in the downtown arena, they were not excluded from it. WSU wanted to maintain its presence on campus. Other arenas in mid-size markets that do not have university tenants include the Wells Fargo Arena in Des Moines and the Ford Center in OKC. I am not sure whether or not Tulsa’s new arena will host UT games.
Ben, you are right, people will go nuts if there is no parking garage. We all might have to walk another hundred feet!! It will really pain some of our people to do that, but considering we are one of the unhealthiest cities in the nation, it might do us some good. A little fresh air and exercise never hurt anyone–it will be the surgery required to separate our citizens from their cars that will hurt the most.
“The “wealthy” are not using our tax money. Please, for your own good, stop thinking you are being victimized by the Man.”
Thanks for your opinion, Steve, but you’re totally wrong about it.
I bought a new truck last summer and I paid several hundred dollars more than I would have had to because of the sales tax levy for the arena.
Eaton Place didn’t tax me, so there’s no comparison.
You say yourself that the people buying the skybox suites will be big business concerns.
Shoot, how much plainer can it get–you tax me, an ordinary citizen, so the Koch brothers can buy a skyboxes.
F*** you, man, I know when I’m getting screwed, and the smoke you’re blowing doesn’t cameoflague it.
Furthermore, we were lied to by our mayor who said we could either raise taxes to build an arena or we could raise taxes to refurbish the Coliseum.
But that’s what Republicans do, isn’t it . . . lie, lie, lie.
Well, I see the political neophyte trolls have hit this blog. The County Commission wrote a letter to the State and entered it into the public record stating that they would support a casino if the State (legislators and gov) passed a law, thus saving taxpayers money voting on a non-binding resolution. The State, cry-baby Knight, and loud-mouth Stuart were out maneuvered, and they don’t like it. On the one hand, you have the far right anti-casino Landwehr making behind the scenes threats to the county if they do authorize a non-binding vote, and on the other hand you have the pro-casino Schodorf making behind the scenes threats to the county if they don’t authorize a non-binding vote. The County Commissioners unanimously approved the public letter to the State, in effect saying to both parties ‘we will not be bullied by either side’.
Now I know it is easy to pick on local officials, especially when you are in an information vaccum. But, don’t blame the officials for information that should have been ferreted out by our so-called investigative OPED staff at WE. After all, they have a deadline, and don’t have time to analyze the facts and report the truth.
Someone will write that Jean Schodorf is a Republican, so why did I say ‘both parties’. Schodorf is a RINO, and votes consistently for party line Democratic planks. At least you liberals on this blog are not afraid to admit being liberal.
Steve: I resent your invitation that I “move to North Korea or Iran” for stating my position as a citizen on the proposed Wichita arena. I thought this could be a place to have a civil conversation about the pros and cons of the arena without rancor.
Incidentally, Steve, if that is your real name, I will put my patriotism, ethics and accomplishments against yours any day and I don’t even know who you are.
Obviously you don’t have any education in political science or engineering or you wouldn’t make the ill-advised statements you made in your previous blogs.
Regarding the vote on the arena, most Sedgwick County voters know that they were lied to by the County Commissioners just prior to the election which they financed with $300,000 of the taxpayers money. I estimate taxpayer sentiment has shifted since the election to be 90% opposed to the arena.
The election was flawed for a variety of reasons. For one, very little was known about the arena footprint, size, purpose (which is still not known), financing (many taxpayers still think they will get some kind of return on their taxes), etc. Before any dirt is turned, another election should be held to get approval and buy-in from at least 90% of Sedgwick County’s taxpayers.
I also disagree with your thought that a “simple majority plus one vote” is adequate to win any election. Yes, in the case of election of candidates this is correct because elected office holders such as councilmen, county commissioners and legislators are also “checked and balanced” by their peers.
However, voting for money issues, plans, buildings, bonds, is a horse of a different color. An often quoted political observor of America’s political life, Alexis de Toqueville, coined the phrase many years ago, “tyranny of the majority.” He and many political scientists see the possibility of fracturing a community over spending money of all by a small majority of voters. I personally know of a community where hard feelings still exist after many years over this very kind of situation. In fact, in many cases, a “super-majority” of at least 65% is required to pass financial issues.
And, of course, that’s what politicians are supposed to do — bring the voters together on financial issues such as public works projects or just forget them. Harry Truman got his political start as a County Commissioner (called Judge in Missouri in the 1930’s) and built a system of concrete roads throughout Jackson County, Missouri — an effort that propelled him to the Presidency. Obviously no danger of that with our present county commissioners.
You mentioned the Wells Fargo Arena in Des Moines. Apples and oranges. I believe that arena is being paid for by income from a new gambling casino.
You seem to be quibbling over my figure of a maximum attendance of about 5,000 people at Wichita sporting events and concerts whereas you can point out one event at which attendance exceeded 5,000. My information is that normally about 20% or 1,000 of these are “freebies,” that is arena staff, food service, police/security, fire, medical and an equal amount of “friends” who show up to hang out with free tickets. In other words, there is a big difference between the numbers reported by public relations people and actual tickets sold.
You really hung yourself with your comments on the skyboxes. I accept your figures of $175,000 to $300,000 to “purchase” a skybox in Denver. Its not clear to me if this is for one season or for a longer term. In any case, you compared this to an equivalent price of $12,000 for a skybox in the Wichita arena. Denver charges $175,000 or more because that’s what construction of skyboxes cost plus maintenance, etc. Skyboxes are actually a separate building built over the arena — they can’t be merely tacked up high in the arena building so they are extremely expensive. A $12,000 price would be a give-away.
Regarding storm water that will be shed by the arena roof in a 6 inch per hour rain storm which is not an unreasonable figure. This would put 6,622,637 pounds of water on the ground around the arena in the first hour. Engineers would express this in cubic feet per minute or hour but I chose pounds so most people could see the major potential problem. Architects and engineers are trained to deal with stormwater and IT IS A MAJOR DEAL in a project like this. A major dispersal system will be needed to get the water to the Arkansas River somehow, either directly into the river or in a major arched pipe built down Douglas or Lewis Streets through River Walk or the Library area. Who will pay for this transmission system?
I was raised in the nearby farm-to-market community of Pratt. I recall sitting with my father in a little depression-era chili/coffee shop at Main and Waterman in 1948 looking over the very area we are talking about. I too would like see a major renovation of downtown Wichita but its obvious to me that the arena as currently proposed is not the answer.
ID, I beg to differ with you about Shodorf. Hers was the deciding vote in the legislature last year to put the hate amendment on the ballot. And that was after she promised the anti hate people we had her vote. She lied to all sides, played coy, and then cast a cowardly vote and cried croc tears to us about how sorry she was.
I call BULLS..T on that one!
She was no RINO when she cast that vote, she was a foot soldier for Terry, Joe and Fred, and that is about as Republican as you can get. When the chips were down, and character was called for, she knuckled under to the wing nuts and her party.
You keep her ID. We dont trust her anymore.
Wow, looks like some of my comments hit a nerve. There seems to be a lot of angst directed towards business and businessmen in Wichita these days. I don’t understand why that is since we are advertised as a “center” of entrepreneurship. The Carney’s, the Koch’s, the DeVore’s–anyone who has made it big with a simple idea (be it Pizza restaurants or rent to own stores) deserve a lot of our respect and admiration, not our angst. Folks, the arena is not being built so the “Koch brothers can buy a skybox” or whatever. Get off it. Sure, it will probably happen. But the arena is so much more than that. It’s a tool to aid downtown redevelopment. It’s a community gathering place. It’s someplace that I will certainly enjoy Thunder games and concerts in a much more comfortable environment than the bare-bones, barn-like Coliseum. For that reason, for me, it will be a beacon of civic pride–much like Century II is to us now.
Someone also said the mayor lied about property taxes being raised for the Coliseum if the arena was not built. Well, not to be nitpicky, but the mayor never said this. The County Commission has always been solely in charge of this project. The Vote Yea campaign made that charge on reliable information provided from Sedgwick County. The only realistic way the County could have afforded the total costs of renovating the Coliseum, which approached $100 million, was to raise property taxes for this specific purpose. Nobody, I repeat, nobody lied. Anyone who has convinced you otherwise has been lying themselves.
Mr. Winkleman, I did not wish you to move to Iran or North Korea because of your stance on the downtown arena. But are you opposed to how our political system works–majority rule with minority rights? You have the right to complain about the downtown arena, we both had the right to vote on it. I don’t like my tax money supporting welfare mothers or the seemingly endless number of social programs this country has–but it’s literally the price I pay for living in a democratic society. With my feelings about these programs and other wasteful government spending, you would think I would like a system where only a “super-majority” wins spending referendums. I would not. Because the will of the majority is so important to the American way of life–as long as the rights of the minority are protected.
No, the Wells Fargo arena was not built entirely with proceeds from a gambling casino. In fact, most of its cost came from–yes–taxes.
Everyone on this blog seems to be forgetting the purpose behind the arena vote was not to get public sentiment on a specific project. Rather, it was to gauge public interest in the IDEA of having the arena downtown. If the county had spent the money to secure a location and hired an architect to do the MULTIMILLION DOLLAR engineering and design work for the project before we had even voted on it, that would have been an irresponsible use of tax money. So, this concept that we needed to know the specifics on the project before voting on it is NOT CONSISTENT with your OWN ARGUMENTS that the county is not spending our money wisely. No, folks, if they had done what you wanted them to do, THAT would have been an improper use of tax money.
I “really hung” myself with the skyboxes? Huh? No, like anything else, the cost of the suites are dependent on what the market will pay for them. In Denver, the market will pay hundreds of thousands for these. In Wichita, not so much. A study is currently underway to determine exactly what these will cost, but preliminary estimates, if I remember right, were about $12,000 (per year). Suites are usually built actually between the two bowls of an arena, not high up at the top. Yes, they are expensive to build, but they are part of the arena structure and not separate. I am not up on how the costs of these suites are allocated.
Again, the surface area of the land the arena will be built on is the SAME EXACT surface area of the arena’s roof. Both will expel the same amount of water under similar conditions. Know your history, Century II was not built next to the river for drainage purposes. An engineer I know said rainwater will most likely be drained directly into the existing storm sewer system, which should be adequate considering–again–the amount of rainwater expelled will not change under similar weather conditions.
Downtown arenas have been an integral piece of the puzzle for many communities across the nation seeking to redevelop their downtowns. Oklahoma City and Little Rock are probably the two closest to us that are really the poster children for this effort. Look at the resurgence in downtown redevelopment in the form of hotels and condos since the arena idea surfaced. Old buildings such as Exchange Place are getting a new lease on life they probably would not have if the arena had been voted down. Sorry, but “glittering international bowling centers” and “state of the art bingo emporiums” catering to the Geritol generation are not the answer–here or anywhere else.
No, I don’t have an education in political science or engineering, but all you need is common sense to see through the veil of lies spreading around this blog. I do have a bachelor’s in business and I’m working on my graduate degree now, so I will say I know a fair share about economics and business. It is obvious Mr. Winkleman knows a great deal about politics but very little about business. That’s too bad because business is a great share of what the arena is all about.