Charles Marsh (in photo), a professor of religion at the University of Virginia, had an op-ed piece in The New York Times last week arguing that evangelicals made a “Faustian bargain” with the Bush administration. In exchange for political access and power, the ministers gave their lockstep, uncritical support for the war in Iraq, he charged.
Marsh read their sermons leading up to the war and was surprised by how little attention the ministers paid to Christian moral doctrine. “Some tried to square the American invasion with Christian ‘just war’ theory, but such efforts could never quite reckon with the criterion that force must only be used as a last resort,” he wrote. “As a result, many ministers dismissed the theory as no longer relevant.”
In doing so, Marsh wrote, church leaders have moved away from Christianity’s primary mission “to hunger for righteousness, to pursue peace, to forbear revenge, to love enemies, in other words, to be marked by the cross.” And he argued that they have “undermined the credibility of our moral and evangelistic witness in the world.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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90 Comments
I call it Christianity lite, the church has moved from being about your soul and learning of God’s gift. To as long as Christ or God is mentioned somewhere. It still is church so we can move on to worldly concerns.
Christianity’s primary mission? Hmmm…money, money, money, or singing “We Are the Champions”? I think they’d really rather kill us than convert us non-believers. You know the type, “kill ‘em all and let god sort ‘em out.”
I’m gonna repeat John Prine here. “Now Jesus dont like killin’ no matter what the reason’s for, and your flag decal wont get you into heaven any more.”
Nathan? Oh, Nathan?
Remember all those questions you keep asking about “can you please explain how Joe Wright doesn’t keep faith with his Christianity, because I don’t see him saying any of the things you have him saying”?
Remember how you keep playing that card over and over again, Nathan.
Okay, now read Marsh’s comments above. Sound out the words you don’t know. Or even look them up in the dictionary. Make an outline. Save it for future reference.
I know you can do it.
LOL proudlib, I thought to myself that this will sure be Nathan bait tonight.
Um… proudlib, this did not pertain to the questions I asked.
ksfarmgirl,
Ah yes, I see you got a copy of the sermon notes from every Christian church in town.
How did you ever find out that was the true intent of Christianity?
Now that the secret is out…
writerdog,
spoken like someone who has never even stepped into a Christian church.
I have been to many in my life and have yet to get the impression of Christianity you give.
Is there a particular church you can name that you have been to which portrayed such attitudes?
writerdog..If you have been in the church you described, my suggestion would be to find a new church!
ksfarmgrrl..”Christianity’s primary mission? Hmmm…money, money, money, or singing “We Are the Champions”?”Our pastors receive no salary or compensation of any kind. All tithes and offerings go for food, clothing, or otherwise helping the homeless or needy. Your mission statement is baseless…
“Um… proudlib, this did not pertain to the questions I asked.”
Hoho, YES!! This is classic Nathan.
When your argument gets refuted beyond all measure of defending it, rephrase it to something so narrowly defined only Nathan knows what is being discussed.
Beautiful.
I can’t wait to use this on Hank.
My ancesters learned all about “convert or die” and in fact all too often “convert and die anyway” at the hands of European Christian invaders. It was genocide, plain and simple.
Hmm.. Professor of Religion..where have we heard that? Oh yea, Paul Mirecki.
Well, that shouldn’t reflect on this guy. His column however, is as full of suppositions, assumptions and half truths as an WE Blog lead in. He judges the motivations of others with no real basis.
Another antiwar voice that should be given its due weight, nothing more.
Proudlib,
I don’t know what on earth you are talking about.
This topic has nothing to do with what we were discussing before, other than it involving Christianity.
If you think my arguments were refuted then please feel free to show me how.
You simply saying it doesn’t make it true or constitute a sound argument.
“How did you ever find out that was the true intent of Christianity?” -Nathan
Ummm…a history book.
“Our pastors receive no salary or compensation of any kind. All tithes and offerings go for food, clothing, or otherwise helping the homeless or needy.” – kansassam
Of course, pastors, priests, etc. are all independently wealthy. They just feel the calling to do gods work. I’m gonna have to call BS on you!!
K, I used to attend a small church where the pastor wasn’t paid. He worked a regular job during the week and preached on Sundays. He was available for counceling and such in the evenings (after work).
Nathan–
I’m gonna let you win this one.
This has nothing to do with Joe Wright. I’m sure he didn’t say a word about Bush’s war and why we need to support Bush in a time of war or anything like that.
So, fundamentalist preachers like Joe Wright have in no way shown that they are willing to serve Mammon by gaining political power and lose their very souls in turning apostate to what they should believe.
You’re right, we can’t PROVE it.
I know it’s hard, Ben, but we’re trying not to dignify anything Ian posts with a response.
Bun Huie,
The SSPX IS the TRUE church and Bishop Williamson is a hero!
V.L.R.B!!!
HAHAHAHAHA!
You and your Taliban will burn!
K, the issue is Fox and Wright, not the pastors of some little country church in a village somewhere.
You’re right, these guys are rolling in it. “God wants you to be rich” and God knows, they are.
My fault, ProudLib. I answered a question that got us OT. I didn’t realize you were enforcing the rule that says we can’t get off track. I know that has never happened before. Sorry ProudLib, and sorry for getting you in trouble with the blog monitor, k.
k…BS you say? I stand by my word.. sorry to destroy your baseless imaginary opinion of all Christians….If you still don’t believe me, I’ll be happy to introduce you and you can see for yourself.
You’re right Sam, but MOST church ministers, priests, etc. have paid positions and a big part of their responsibility to to raise funds for the church to operate on.This country would be a better place if more churches actually lived the mission, like your’s obviously does.
damoon…The Bible does say that the flock should provide that the teachers may teach. So I don’t have a problem with paying pastors. I do have a problem if pastors do not tithe their incomes and buy BMW’s instead!
Damoon,
What mission is it that you think more churches should be doing that they are not now?
Oh really proudlib…
What is your definition of rich?
Hoe do you know Pator Wright is?
Damoon and other leftists simply want Chritian churches to be humanist social workers and accepting of all degenerates and filthiness! The same leftists who whined when the Catholic church spoke out against abortion now cheer them on as the agitate for “rights” for filthy illegal immigrants.
“The Greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine.”
Herr Adolf Hitler
Hey Farmgirl-RIGHT ON with John Prine. Great song writer!!
Ain’t hurtin’ nobody, ain’t hutin’ no-one.
Nathan,
Can you prove he’s not?
Proudlib,
Argument/Logic 101:
It is not my job to disprove your assertion first, but your job to frist offer evidence in support.
Nathan, I think churches should put more of their money into community programs instead of building huge multi-million dollar houses of worship. The Catholic church is one example, they could put more of their ample resources into medical clinics in poor neighborhoods or offering scholarships for the children of their parishoners who can’t afford private education.Just look at how much St Anthony’s put out to restore their church to it’s original state (over a million). Among other things, they hired artists to hand stencil and paint all the beautiful murals on the walls. They worked 7 days a week for a full year to do the project. Yes, it’s really beautiful, but is this the best way to use the church’s resources? I wonder what Jesus would do? Build or remodel a building…..or invest more in addressing the community’s needs?
Yes, Ian. I think the church should be all inclusive and do more to alleviate suffering in the community. There’s nothing wrong with being a humanist social worker. It’s what Jesus would want for His church.
Why don’t you get into some therapy?
Damoon,
I agree that churches should spend their money wisely.
I am not sure about St. Anthony’s…
but the entire multi-million dollar figure is a bit misleading. Sure it cost that much and sure churches spend that much, but it is not for luxary it is for space to accomodate more members most of the time.
I go to Maranatha. We are at full capacity most of the time now. It is going to cost us millions of dollars to build a facility big enough to accomodate our increase in size and the continued increase.
It doesn’t cost that much becuase of the gold chairs(which we are not putting in) it really costs that much just to boild a semi-decent building these days that large.
Do some churches go a bit overbaord with what they spend their money on in buildings? Yeah.
Do most of them? No.
Nathan, how is all this trash talk working for you? Brought any people to god lately? Or are you just chasing people away by re-enforcing all the sterotypes we already have about toxic christians?
ksfarmgirl,
If I was trash talking I might have an answer for you.
My mission so far was to tell the truth about Christianity to people like you who seem to do nothing but bash it.
There is this scale that I don’t remember the name for, but it goes from -7 to +3 I believe. (been a bit since I have studied it)
Anyhow, it was used to describe someones acceptance of Christ.
Basically, -7 means you don’t believe there is any God let alone Christ up to +3 which is you love Christ with all your heart and have a great relationship with him.
I would figure most all of you who do nothing but take every opportunity to bash Christianity, such as yourself ksfarmgirl, are not to high on that scale.
So my actions regardless of what you think of them or not are not going to have much of an impact at all on you.
Besides, I don’t see my speaking the truth about Christianity as bad. Of course you do, you don’t agree with Christianity so why would you?
On top of all this. This is just another way for you to try to bash me yet again. You don’t really care about how I present Christianity, it is just another thing you try to use against me.
Lol nathan, keep it up. Thousands are watching you here.
Yep, I am a proud -7. I have just as much right to believe nothing as you have the right to believe your stuff. The difference is, I dont care what you do or do not believe. I am not trying to convert you to anything. You wont rest until YOU think everyone agrees with you. Yikes.
The Flying Spagetti Monster has as much validity as anything else that cant be proven. He loves you, and I hope you will be touched by his noodly appendage nathan. That shouldnt offend you anymore than your stuff offends me.
So again, brought anyone to god lately doing what you do here? Or do you just wanna whine about being bashed when called into account?
“So my actions regardless of what you think of them or not are not going to have much of an impact at all on you.”
Yes Nathan, that is right. I dont imagine it has much impact on anyone else either. Except for comic relief. I love how they bat you around like a tennis ball at night.
Once again, most of my purpose for posting is to correct the continued lies, distortions, and mistruths passed by people like you about Christianity.
Do you remember this post nathan?
“You simply saying it doesn’t make it true or constitute a sound argument.”
You saying it doesnt make it truth either. Me saying it doesnt make it a lie.
Oh, I see.
So what proof do you have that the primary mission of the Christian church is:
“money, money, or singing “We Are the Champions”? I think they’d really rather kill us than convert us non-believers. You know the type, “kill ‘em all and let god sort ‘em out.”
I said “I think” nathan. I dont hold out my opinion as fact, and that is my opinion. You are the only one who equates your opinion with fact.
Like I said:
You just want to bash Christianity with whatever mistruths, lies, or distortions you can.
Technically you did not say you thought until the second part of your statement.
So do you have proof for the first part where you said the primary mission was money?
What exactly was your intent with that statment then?
You got it Nathan. My intent was to express my opinion. I never said the first part of my statement was fact. Split that hair again grasshopper that you may truely achieve enlightenment in the insignificant details. I guess if you cant make the big points you can always argue over the minor ones. But let me be clear. It was ALL my opinion.
My intent was to make people laugh. My intent was to hold up a mirror so you could see what image you all project to us unwashed. My intent was to show that satan lives among the thinking people and we should be regarded with suspicion. My intent was to lure you into the gay lifestyle.
You are just so damn smart and clever, you caught me. Nice work sherlock.
Do you have any proof for what you say other than that unprovable fairy tale you call the bible? You quote the bible as fact and I know you sincerely believe it is fact. But as you so wisely noted, saying it is fact doesnt make it so.
If I say the flying spagetti monster is the creator of the universe, will that make it so? Am I right, fellow pastafarians? You keep your myths Nathan and I will keep mine. May you be touched by his noodly appendage.
Technically Nathan, are you more interested in proving yourself right or all the rest of us wrong? Do you think if you win an argument on semantics that we are just gonna run over each other to get to the nearest church? Are you more interested in showing us that god is right or that we are all just dummies compared to you and your superior wisdom?
Whenever I hear christians like you nathan, it reminds me of the joke that “the beatings will continue until moral improves.” In other words, I’m gonna browbeat you all until you come to god!!!!
How’s that workin’ dude?
sorry. morale.
Ah, the classic switch the argument tactic.
If you would like to discuss the validity of the Bible and the divinity of Christ we can.
I have always said it comes down to faith. Never said it was anything but that in the end. There are many factual and logical argument to help support this faith though.
However, we are discussing yours and many others constant portrayal of Christianity as something it is not.
That is what we are discussing.
You seem to be having enough trouble talking about that, so lets try to stick to one topic at a time.
“However, we are discussing yours and many others constant portrayal of Christianity as something it is not.”
Maybe it is not that way to you Nathan, but it looks exactly that way to me. How I portray it is how it looks to me. How you portray it is how it looks to you. Opinions again boy, opinions. I know you have heard of such things. You have them too, you just mistake them for fact.
Nathan, I am not changing the subject here. You ask me for proof, I ask you for proof. I am supposed to be humbled when you ask for it, and you are offended when I ask for it. No subject change there.
I am not trying to tell you what your religion is to you, I am discussing how your christianity occurs for me. You just insist on making me wrong. You can believe in the tooth fairy for all I care. It is all on the same level for me.
And no, I dont want to discuss the bible or christ with you unless you want to discuss mythology with me. Oh geez, you probably will since you are such an authority on fairy tales.
It has been said that the sign of an intelligent person is that they can hold two opposing thoughts in their head at the same time. I can discuss more than one subject at once, can you? The subject here is toxic christians. But then…that is just my opinion. :)
It was not my inability to carry on 2 conversations I was talking about.
If you go back and read what I actually wrote I was talking about your inability to discuss the one topic we were already on.
Must you keep distorting the discussion?
Lol nathan, careful, you are getting flustered. You said: “However, we are discussing yours and many others constant portrayal of Christianity as something it is not.”
We are on the same topic. Our opinions of christians. You better go back to the other thread dude. I am kickin’ yo ass there too and you are getting behind. Dont change the subject or the thread nathan. You cant even keep track of one.
Do you think Jesus likes christians when they wont admit they have been irrefutably been proven wrong? Are you just gonna deny ’till you die? WWJD here nathan. (What would jenna drink?)
And like most other arguments they widdle down to some argument about some obscure point not even on topic…
Seriously, lets try this the real way.
You make an assertion against Christianity, back up said assertion with some form of evidence.
I will then rebuttle your evidence if I can and provide counter evidence.
You have the oppurtunity to do the same.
If you really want to have a real discussion, which it seems you do not.
Nathan, I have opinions about christianity just like you do. An assertion is just an opinion and no one can prove opinions right or wrong. You think your opinions are fact and want to debate them accordingly.
Wrong rules for the wrong name nathan. You want these pseudo discussions, then when you loose, you run crying like a little girl andpick onea)accuse us of not providing proof when it is there in black and white.b)act like we change the subject when we dontor c)say that our nationally respected sources have no substance.
Trying to have an adult discussion with you is like answering my nephew a thousand times when he says “why” or “how come” endlessly. Eventually someone gets tired of it and says “because” and then he thinks he won the arguement.
Dont mistate persistance and stamina with intelligence and eloquence. If you as why long enough, someonw will say because.
“Seriously, lets try this the real way.”
Your way is the only real way? You only play the game if you make up the rules? Doesnt your bible say something about people who are arrogant and full of themselves?
Assertion was a bad choice of a word on my part.
Yes, you have your opinion.
Your opinion had to come from somewhere though. Your opinion is based upon something, true or not.
Either you can back up your “opinion” with something or you can’t.
All these posts have basically been your fancy way of avoiding saying you can’t back up what you say about Christianity.
Thank you, have a good day.
I believe what I believe nathan. You believe what you believe. The difference is that I dont care what you believe, and I dont try to change it. You, on the other hand, will not rest until you somehow change what I believe or prove that what you believe is superior.
And now you are flouncing out in a huff? Does this mean you give up? Holy cow!
You cant back up what you believe either nathan unless you use your opinion or your fairy tales. And doesnt your bible say even satan can use the scriptures for his own purposes? You can make it say anything you want. You can believe anything you want. You can believe six impossible things before breakfast.
I still want you to know the Flying Spagetti Monster loves you and I hope you will be touched by his noodly appendage.
ksfarmgrrl,
You arrogantly deride Christians for their views yet you promote nonsense like the “holocau$t”, racial equality and other ridiculous MYTHS, hypocrite!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
“holocau$t”, racial equality and other ridiculous MYTHS,
Show me a post where I have discussed any of those things Ian. Your stupidity knows no bounds. Christians can have the likes of you.
You arrogantly deride Christians for their views
Uh ya…you all have been doing that to us for 2000 years. What makes christians above questioning? Divine blessing? HAHAHAHAHA. Whatsa matta, you can dish it out but you cant take it?
ksgirl – have you noticed that nathan has nothing to say about Ian’s representation of Christianity?
ksfarmgrrl/Ben..
Christians don’t need the likes of Ian any more than we need the Phelps clan!
… I said I will repect people… but I think Ian is a troll, it is better not to feed and care for trolls.
I hope Ian and Nathan continue their high brow posts. They are the best advertisement us heathens have. You go boys, throw ‘em some more red meat so they post some more!!!
It reminds me of the joke about what to say if a straight man asks if you are a lesbian. The deadpan reply is supposed to be “why do you ask? are you the alternative?”
Hey Ian and Nathan, if you are the alternative for us non-christians, us satan worshipers better dust off some more seats in our covens!! We’ll be expecting a crowd at the next meeting.
Viva la showing your ass!!
Awhile back I got the bright idea that no one should respond to Ian and maybe he’d go away.
Strangely, he seems to be posting more than ever.
So, that didn’t work.
But for those who’ve been on the WEBlog for quite a while now, we don’t read Ian anymore because we know what he’s going to say before he says it.
If he just posted his name, it would be all you’d need to know.
But for those conservatives who say, “racism is dead and we don’t have to concern ourselves with it anymore,” I give you as exhibit A, Ian.
“why do you ask? are you the alternative?”
OUCH!
Farm Gal,One of my stock answers when someone who can’t believe that a straight guy would support gay rights asks if I’m gay (or one of their other terms for it); “Looking for a date? I can’t think of any other legitimate reason you’d want to know!” That usually shuts them up.
Good one jed!
Ben,
I just don’t respond to anything ian says, I thought that was what everyone on this blog was doing.
ksfrmgrrl,
you can hide behind saying it is just yours or mine opinion all you want.
When you say that the primary mission of Christianity is money, it has nothing to do with me using my fairy tales to support saying you are wrong.
Saying that Christianity is all about money has nothing to do with the actualy faith and everything to do with your continued unfounded attacks against Christianity.
Nathan, maybe money is not the biggest item on the Christian agenda, but it’s close. The churches couldn’t exist without the financial support of it’s followers and they couldn’t build all those huge glass palaces without it, either.To say that money isn’t a huge priority to the churches is to have your head in the sand. KsSam’s church is the only one I’ve heard of that actually puts ALL it’s resources into the communtiy.The Catholic church puts a lot into the communtiy, but it could do more. Everytime I drive by one of the megachurches, I just think what a waste!
Damoon,
Try comparing what they spend on the building vs. everything else instead of focusing so much on the building.
If a church has thousands of members and a multi-million dollar budget every year, having a multi-million dollar church is not that big of a deal.
Instead of looking at all the good the church does all you see is what a waste of building…
you don’t even take into account all the great things having a church that size does either.
I suppose everytime I drive by your house I will say to myself what a waste of money… building a hanger for your plane, another bathroom, bigger garage (what are you at now, 4 car size?)
What do you really need all that for anyhow Damoon?
What a waste.
I have to back up Nathan on this, at least some. Having seen the work done by Catholic Charities I can definitely state that there are many out there who are doing the work of “clothing the naked and feeding the hungry”. And, I would add that many of us who are NOT Christian join with them in that mission.
But it has to be admitted that raising money through parishoners is one of the major things churches are about. Why else would they pass the collection plate every week? (And, Nathan, please don’t quote me the scripture about tithing,k?)
I’ve enjoyed the discourse, even had a few chuckles. Nathan, why is it that you feel the need to save each and every one of us who you’ve decided needs saving? I think you should try looking up the definition of “faith” in the dictionary. It says nothing about facts.
I respect your right to have faith in whatever beliefs you choose. Why can’t you have the same respect for those of us who don’t share your views/faith? But then I guess we wouldn’t have these long blogs, would we?
Ksfarmgrrl, are Satanists meeting in covens now? You do realize, I’m sure, that except for the true Satanists (sorry, the correct name escapes me), the more modern Satanists who claim to follow Satan have a Christian basis? Most other religions don’t bother with the devil. We know that real evil exists in men–or women–and has nothing to do with being led astray by yet another mythical being.
Nathan, when you can present facts that don’t come from the Bible (written by man and interpretted and rewritten several times), nor your faith, which has no facts and is, simply, faith, I’ll happily share some discourse with you, even though I don’t claim to be an expert.
I think I have to side with Damoon. When you read or hear about Jesus he didn’t wear ornate clothing or fine fabrics. He wore what the common folks wore. Everything I have read/heard about Jesus (which I have to admit isn’t all that much) is that he was a simple person who didn’t indulge in ornamentation. So why does the catholic church (among others) believe that huge excessively adorned buildings is what Jesus would want? It is what they want. So yes, (imo) it is a waste.
Gee Nathan, you forgot to mention the rolls in my front drive and the butler’s quarters around back! Excuse me, but “I” don’t have a plane, and our garage is a two car, just like everyone else’s. Much of what you see is dedicated to my husband’s work.
I can envision you, standing in your glass palace, wearing your clean shirt and your hair combed, surrounded by beautiful music and your fellow Christians, singing with your arms raised towrd the ceiling in a gesture of offering to your God. How nice.Most Sunday mornings, I run like crazy around the low income, smelly, not so nice parts of town, administering meds and treatments, holding the hands of people most others won’t touch, wiping butts, making breakfasts, and doing everything else the poor and disabled can’t do for themselves. Yes, there are Sundays I wish I was sitting in some beautiful clean megachurch filled with flowers, listening to pretty music and readings from the bible, feeling good about myself because I’m there. But that’s not where my priorities lie.Contrary to what you may think, material things mean absolutely nothing to me. If Jesus was here today, I’d be willing to bet that He’d be hanging out with the ones I care for rather than sit in some beautiful glass 10,000 square foot castle build in His honor.
Oh, and Nathan…..you don’t exactly live in a cardboard box yourself. Maybe it’s time you considered moving out of your parent’s basement.
Damoon, you mean he is an adult old enough to live on his own? Gosh, from his posts, I would have put his age at about 12!
Nah, Nathan’s a Marine that still lives with daddy. Doesn’t say much for the Marines!
Damoon,
LOL, like I said, you don’t know a whole lot about me do you?
I moved out over a year ago.
Besides, I am just a poor college kid trying to get through school right now.
There is the problem with your view of the church Damoon.
You see a mega church filled with people that are too good to do any real work for the ministry.
I see a church that is supporting hundreds of missions around the world with the financial support of all those people on Sundays.
I see a church full of people who are out in the community volunteering or doing things to help others when they are not in church for the whole whopping 2 hours on Sunday.
I see a building that can play host to Christian concerts of for bands that are not charging 40 dollars a ticket so they can make millions of dollars, but are here to play God honoring music for a group of people that would rather listen to that than the slap yo ho gangsta rap crap.
I see a building that hosts a multitude of programs for childrenfrom daycare to school to a safe place to hang out.
I see a wonderful alternative for people to turn to instead of hanging out in the bars, going to the strip clubs, picking up some hookers on South broadway… you name it.
That is just a few of the things I see when I look at that Glass building.
I see a church full of varying members of the community from prosperous business men/women, middle class, to just making it.
We don’t dress up becuase we are above anyone, we dress up for the same reasons anyone dresses up for any occasion. It is just a respectful thing to do.
Then again, if you had your way, no one would go to church regardless of how big or small it is becuase there is not any God especially one called Christ in your view.
My goal here is not to push my faith on anyone. If you look at my postings they are 99% just trying to tell the truth about the Chrisitan church after someone here attacks it.
Nathan, those churches are full of people who are out in the community, volunteering to help others? I have two problems with that. First, it isn’t only Christians who are helping others. Second, I doubt every member of all the churches in Wichita are helping. In fact, having worked within a few organizations, I’ve found that there’s usually a select few who are actually doing the work that everyone is given credit for doing, just as you’ve just stated. It’s the nature of the human beast.
I have to side with Damoon on this one. I’d really love to see the books from the churches to see exactly how much money is spent helping. Perhaps I’d be proven wrong. I’ve never been one to agree with the missions thing. I see the whole concept as buying souls. “Here’s a new dress. Jesus loves you.” But that’s just me, and I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s wrong for everyone, it just doesn’t ring true for me.
When we’re young, we all tend to see the beauty of things and ignore those things that are ugly. I hope that, as you grow older, you’ll see the reality. Yes, there will always be the beautiful, but the ugly is there, too.
RD,
I never said Christians are the only ones helping in the community.
I never said that every member of every church in wichita was helping either.
Do you like arguing with yourself?
When I did say “full” I suppose I shall make it more clear by saying that “many” inside the church…
The beauty is that the “books” are not some secret hidden thing in the depths of the basement.
I am a member at my church and every year at the annual meeting the “books” are openly available.
I hate to break it to you RD, but everything that Christians are doing should be in the name of Christ.
That is not going to change anytime soon.
The argument was that these mega churches are some inherently bad things made of greed.
My reply was that these churches still do alot to help others.
I am not disputing the fact that they do it in the name of Christ and hope to share His love with others.
As far as your last comment goes:
What reality is it that you hope I see?
“I hate to break it to you RD, but everything that Christians are doing should be in the name of Christ.”
There you go, Nathan. Isn’t that what we’ve been discussing? I agree with you 100%, but I’m sure not seeing it. I doubt I ever will. Why? Because we’re all human, and we all have flaws.
I don’t need to argue with myself. I can read your words very well and find many to disagree with. Argue? This blog is for opinions, correct? You have an opinion, I have an opinion, everyone here, whether posting or not, has an opinion. I get the feeling that you believe yours is the only one worth any salt, while the rest of us are not allowed to voice ours or to be heard. That seems to be the George W. Bush definition of free speech, and I don’t buy into it.
Just curious, Nathan, but how many times have you actually looked at those “books?” I admit to not knowing much about the inner financial workings, even though I was once the member of a Christian church, but you seem to be an expert.
Reality? Come talk to me when you’re 40.
RD,
I see you are hiding behind the “it’s my opinion” band wagon too now.
Call it whatever you want to. If you can’t back it up then it is still just more of the same unfounded statements against Christianity.
Why waste your time insinuating that there is some reality I should see if you are not going to tell me?
How convienent… wait till I’m 40. Why? Becuase you might have an answer by then or you don’t really have one for me now?
Nathan, I never said I thought people shouldn’t go to church, I just think that many churches (Catholic in particular) could put their money to better use than spending so much on decorating their houses of worship. There are MANY voids in the community (and parishes)that churches could fill, but their priorities seem to be elsewhere. Too many churches reflect the materialism that permeates our society, but I think they see that as a neccessity because if the congregation had to worship in a metal outbuilding, most wouldn’t bother to show up for Sunday services. I guess it’s what people want and expect. I remember a time when it wasn’t like that. Nowadays it seems like it’s all about money and opulence.
One more thing. RD is right. I’ll bet money that you’ll see things differently when you’re 40. When I was your age, I knew all the answers, too.”The more I see. the less I know for sure”…..John Lennon
By any chance does anyone find the irony in that Nathan spouts off about not having facts when nearly every post of his (all of them I have read anyway) contain no facts themselves? Nathan, how about posting links to your evidence.
Just another example of a little boy who knows more than the world combined.
Yes, and a rather unhappy little boy at that.
Damoon, just for the record, we miss you when you are not here!
What is it RD is right about?
You are both implying that I am wrong only because I have yet to see “reality”
Easy way to dismiss me since it seems to be too hard for you to actually look at churches with an honest eye instead of an attacking one.
Nathan, have you ever heard the old saying, “Experience is the best teacher”? Or maybe, “There are two sides to every story”?
What we’re implying is that, as you grow older, you learn new things and more things about the things you know. In one word, you’ll “mature.” And so, hopefully, will your vision of things.
Everything isn’t black and white, Nathan. Most here, if not all, don’t believe Christianity is bad, but on the other hand, many don’t believe that some of the things (some) Christians do are good. You, Nathan, see Christianity as all good. That’s your right. No one here wants to take that personal freedom away from you. On the other hand, we’d like the same accorded to us. That’s our side of the story. Much of that comes from voices of experiences over a longer time than you’ve had.
This forum gives us the opportunity to voice our differences. We’re not here to make enemies. Neither are you, I’m sure. But you have a lot to learn in life, and one of those things is to understand that just because YOU believe in something, not everyone is going to agree, nor can you expect them to.
My opionion (and it is just that) of what the Founding Fathers were doing when they created this great country, was to allow people the freedom they (the FF and the people) had not previously had. A Declaration of Independence from prior oppression was written, a Consititution was created to guarantee citizens of those rights the Founding Fathers cherished. Laws were enacted to ensure those freedoms and rights, yet they protect individuals from others who tried to harm them. All of this was done while keeping in mind that there would be differences between individuals.
If we’re truly the intelligent, loving people we say we are, we will celebrate those differences, not shun them. We’ll discuss them and, yes, argue them, too, just to keep things interesting. If we all thought alike, our lives truly would be boring.
‘Nuff said. I’m stepping down from my soapbox and hope that, maybe, you understood even a little. Or, like my oldest daughter, who’s probably older than you, it’ll take a while to sink it, but eventually will be accepted, even if not agreed.
Once again RD, I see you enjoy setting up your own argument with things I never said…
I don’t see Christianity as all good. I see Christ as all good. I see what we are supposed to be doing as all good.
When someone makes the claim that Christianity is mosty/all/mainly/etc about money it has nothing to do with my acceptance of reality, my maturity, my experience, or me as an individual.
When someone makes that claim, yeah it is their opinion, it was Hitlers opinion that all Jews needed to be killed. It doesn’t make that opinion valid, right, or acceptable.
We have been going back and forth now for many posts and the one thing I have yet to see from any of you is how Christianity is all about, mostly about, mainly about or secondly about money.
The only thing I have seen is an attack on “mega” chruches as an example of “waste”
Yet I have not seen any further details of just how it is a waste to have a mega church other than it looks kind of fancy…
So, you guys can sit here and tell me I am immature, not wise, to young to understand…blah…blah…blah…blah….blah.
All I hear and see is people like ksfrmgrrl and damoon making statements against Christianity that are not true.
I will continue, as I am bored and have the time to do so, to tell anyone who does the same how/why they are wrong or ask them for some type of example, evidence, proof…etc, to support their “opinion” or whatever you want to call it.
I am not stopping you from having it, but if you are going to give it then at least be prepared to qualify it.
Nathan,
It was not Hitler’s opinion that all jews be killed and in fact there was no progam to do such. The Red Cross stated categorically that there was no attempt by the Germans to “genocide” jews, gypsies or any other group.
Yes, Hitler wanted jews to be deported from Europe to Palestine or Madagascar and that was reasonable as the jews are cancer to White christian Civilisation!
V.L.R.B!!
I’ll probably regret this…
Do you believe that an estimated 6 million Jews were killed under Hitlers reign?
There were perhaps some 150 000 jews who died in Europe during the war. Most of them died of disease and many were Soviet partisans and rightly executed. There was NEVER any attempt by the Germans to genocide anyone!!
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htmhttp://www.ihr.org/jhr/v01/v01p-59_Walendy.htmlhttp://www.cwporter.com/articles.htmhttp://666ismoney.com/HolocaustAds.htmlhttp://www.historiography-project.com/misc/misc.htmlhttp://www.cwporter.com/intro.htm
I’m not attacking Christianity, Nathan, just the priorities and the hypocrisy of many “Christians”. Nothing pisses me off more than to be judged by or preached to by a bunch of pseudo Christian hypocrites who use religion as a veil for their glaring ignorance and intolerance.You won’t try to understand anything I’ve said, you only twist what I say and try to turn it into something else that you can grasp and understand, and when that doesn’t work, you reduce yourself to making personal insults. You really just don’t get it do you? I was amused by you, but now I really feel sorry for you (I’m not being condesending, I really mean it). Like I said before, you seem to me to a really unhappy, angry person. Not because of how or what you believe, but the way you present yourself when you interact with others you disagree with.