We happened to notice the approach of an interesting anniversary: It was on Jan. 23, 1996, that the Rev. Joe Wright, senior pastor of Wichita’s Central Christian Church, delivered the prayer to the Kansas House that has been e-mailed and debated around the world. With lines such as “we have endorsed perversion and called it an alternative lifestyle,” “we have rewarded laziness and called it welfare,” and “we have killed our unborn and called it choice,” the prayer has become a battle cry for many in the culture wars. It also raised questions about the appropriateness of giving such a prayer in a government forum. Two other local pastors reflect on the prayer in today’s Opinion pages. Ten years later, these issues still generate a lot of heat.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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176 Comments
We have thieving pastors and we call it christianity.
Joe Wright: Does the following passage sound familiar? Judging from your ‘prayer’, I bet not.
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory. All the nations will be assembled before him and he will separate men one from another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats. He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right hand, ‘Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take for your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you made me welcome; naked and you clothed me, sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me.’ Then the virtuous will say to him in reply, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome; naked and clothe you; sick or in prison and go to see you.’ And the King will answer, ‘I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me.’ Next he will say to those on his left hand, ‘Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me.’ Then it will be their turn to ask, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, a stranger or naked, sick or in prison, and did not come to your help?’ Then he will answer, ‘I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me.’ And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25: 31 – 46
James Madison was completely opposed to legislative prayers. He saw it as a obvious violation of religious freedom.
Unfortunately, he didn’t win that battle, and the Supreme Court much later upheld the practice (via an extremely lame, convoluted argument) in Marsh v. Chambers.
Nor has that been the only abuse of this practice. There have been too many to count. But what can you say: There are many people who believe that taking “under God” out of an officially-recited youth drill (a bizarre, Soviet-Union-style ritual, as it is), is somehow a violation of their “civil rights.” One wonders why they don’t defend their “right” to be tortured (oh wait–they do!).
Anything NEW in the news today? You must really have been reaching to give Joe equal time after all the criticism he has received for his hate mongering ways. Joe, exactly who abused political power by distorting the truth and whipping up hate? Ummmmm, you perhaps?
I can just hear Joe now. “Yikes, the offering plate is light this week and the gambling money makes my little friends look bad. I guess I should call the WE and tell them me and mine need a little feel good publicity this week.”
Praise god and pass the collection plate. I still say we should have a story on the IRS status of all these morally superior political, er, I mean, church organizations. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
I’m amazed how those who distort Christ’s teachings get so much press. Joe, Terry, and Fred have all beome famous because of the way they use religion as a weapon to discriminate, repress, and assault others.Good job WE. Nothing like giving them a platform from which to preach their thinly disguised hatred, bigotry, and intolerance.
At least Pat Robertson is not from Kansas, but dont Fred, Joe, Terry and Pat constitute the four horsemen of hate?
Lib–
Once again, you are generalizing, falsely labelling and castigating an entire group wrongly.
While some of these over the top zealots might claim to be Republicans, they are not representative of the majority. They are no more representative of the Republican party than the phelps cult is representative of Christianity.
Your simplistic labelling and accusations are off the mark, untrue, and a demonstration of a very closed mind that lives to blame and never, ever offers any positive solutions to anything.
Must be nice to sit in the cheap seats and criticize.
What do you want offered as a positive solution here? I can think of one…dont give Joe, Terry, Fred and Pat any more publicity. I think that is a very positive solution.
“While some of these over the top zealots might claim to be Republicans, they are not representative of the majority.” ROFLMAO.
Geez Ray, I admire you for being able to say something like that with a straight face.
“Must be nice to sit in the cheap seats and criticize.” I consistantly see here you must have purchased season tickets.
What is your proposed positive solution to jerks like joe?
First, grrl, I do not lump people together in one labelled group and accuse all of them of acting in concert.Second, I have testified in front of committees, walked precincts, raised funds, traveled to state and federal capitols to meet with my reps, organized volunteers, etc., to work for candidates I support. That is not buying a season ticket in the cheap seats. What have YOU done?
Third, a majority of the active participants in the Republican party reject Joe Wright and Terry Fox and their extremism. It does not take a straight face to say that.
“What have YOU done?”
All the same things as you Ray. I was a county party chair when I was 23, and I have managed 12 political campaigns over the past 25 years. We won 9 of them as democrats in a county that is 3:1 registered republican. But enough about me.
“Third, a majority of the active participants in the Republican party reject Joe Wright and Terry Fox and their extremism.”
Can you back that up with something other than your opinion?
Well, Ray?
I still havent heard any of your positive solutions yet Ray. We are waiting for more pearls of wisdom.
“Third, a majority of the active participants in the Republican party reject Joe Wright and Terry Fox and their extremism.”
Hogwash!
It doesn’t take a genius to see that the narrow-minded views of Wright, Fox et al are perfectly mirrored by a majority of Kansas republicans, witness the 70% vote for the “hate amaedment”. Republican views in Kansas have made us a laughing stock for the rest of the world.
Ray, you have to ask yourself why, if Kansas republicans don’t agree with Wright/Fox, we get examples like the KBOE.
Not to pile on our friend Ray, but I remember the reaction of numerous moderate Republicans when the religious right wackos took over the Sedgwick County party in 1992.
They’re still nominally in charge, though the fissures are now becoming public (witness the recent Gietzen/Shallenburger episode).
By all means, keep trying to take your party back, Ray, but you might as well acknowledge the reality of it.
P.S. In the first draft, I inadvertently typed “modern” Republicans. I nearly chose to leave it that way! :)
Not to mention the Ranson/Carter incident Rage.
Ray! I would agree with you, and that I do not believe that Terry and Joe are Republicans. But they know this to be a Republican state and therefore push their agenda as one of the Republican Party.
Also! They have the largest congregations in Wichita and people who go to those churches do what ever they tell them to do and vote.
They pass out literature, yard signs, and everything you can think of to get their candidate the voice and votes to win. And most of all, they are extremely successful.
It’s funny! They build multi-million dollar churchs, drive expensive BMW’s, influence state politics, yet they don’t do a damn think about helping the poor and hungry of our area. They could care less. They are opportunist televangelist and nothing more.
That being! I don’t care what they do and how they do it. It’s a free country and they can scam the public of donations all day and reap the rewards with a nice lifestyle, but there is an IRS law that seperates politics from religion and they, my friend, are operating in a grey area.
To me! Terry and Joe are scam artist, but the religous public cannot see it.
The following pledge/mission statement, if you will, is from the Kansas Republican Assembly. They are made up of soical and economic conservatives in Kansas. I do not believe they make up 70% of the electorate – if they do, it is past time to move. Any way, in their words:
“Kansas Republican AssemblyPO Box 626Topeka, KS 66601-0626
MEMBERSHIP PLEDGE
“I pledge to do my part to. . .
“promote conservatism in the tradition of the Founding Fathers.
“maintain the integrity of the Republican Party platform based on correct moral and constitutional principles and to use the platform to hold elected officials accountable.
“identify and oppose those individuals, groups and agendas that would, knowingly or otherwise, bring about the loss of our freedoms and the destruction of our Republic through the violation of the Constitution and the erosion of the traditional family or public morals.
“bring back to the Republican Party those who have been disaffected by the perception that the party has moved away from its core principles.
“increase Republican voter registration.
“recruit, train and motivate individuals to run for public office who are irrevocably committed to uphold and fight for constitutional principles and the preservation of the Republic.
“watchdog elected officials and ensure their adherence to conservative Republican principles.
“inform the public regarding correct principles relative to issues and the qualifications of candidates for public office.”
These folks give food and shelter to Steve Abrams. I can’t see where they could have too many non-social conservatives in their ranks. I can’t find out how many people belong to this organization. Does any body know of such information or the prevelence of social conservatives in KS?
The website is:
http://www.ks-ra.org
Steven E, this is great. It sounds like GW wouldnt qualify for membership given their concern for freedom and the constitution.
Mea culpa…I give up…you can quit with the attacks now, ok? I will rephrase my statement. Terry Fox and Joe Wright do not speak for ALL Republicans.
Is that better?
My initial statement was trying to point out to “proud liberal” that not all Republicans worship at the altar of Terry Fox and Joe Wright.
I give up.
Ray Thomas,
Fair enough. But the fact is, it’s folks like Fox and Wright who are driving the GOP bus these days, in Kansas and nationally. They’re setting the agenda. And as long as that’s the case, they are the de facto voice of the GOP. Would that it were not so.
We do have a state religion in America and it constitutes the wordship of the holohoax, jews, and the failed experiment of multi-racialism!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
I see Ian Santiago has stumbled out of his meth house to make a typically addled and nonsensical statement. Soon he’ll go back to huffing gold paint from a paper bag.
We have despoiled His Creation and called it Progress …
We have mired millions in poverty and called it Capitalism …
We have destroyed nations and called it “spreading the Gospel” …
We have condoned slavery and called it “God’s Plan” …
We have committed genocide in His name …
We have killed millions and called it His work …
Where is Kansassam when you need him?CF, thank you for the scripture. But that was a strange choice if you are trying to make a point against pastor Wright, because that is right in the wheelhouse of Central Christian’s ministry, as it is in a lot of local ministries.
You might want to take a look at that too, Joe Williams. I’m sure you wouldn’t want to mistate the facts.
http://www.centralcc.org/HisHelpingHands/HHHMain.html
Outlander, I appreciate the info. I wasn’t aware of that.
However, it doesn’t change a thing. The passage from Matthew is often referred to as ‘The Last Judgement,’ and it stipulates the conditions under which we, who are Christians, are to be judged. It does not say that we who are Christians are to judge each other or anyone else. We are to serve everyone who can be classed as ‘the least of these’, humbly, without judgment or condemnation. We don’t get to pick and choose. To say that we do is to make ourselves into God.
‘Without judgment or condemnation’ is not a phrase that I can apply to Pastor Wright’s prideful ‘prayer’ in the Kansas statehouse.
Outlander…Actually, I attended Central Christian for the first time yesterday to see what Pastor Wright was all about. I hate making judgements about the hearts of others on second hand information and gossip.My witness was this.. Joe gives alot of lip service to service ministries, and it appears that at least some in the congregation are walking down that path. My experience is that a congregation of 10,000 will probably garner you about 1,000 believers who are willing to do any work at all. I did not hear anything contary to the gospel, in fact, I was pleasantly surprised to hear more of a message of sharing the love of Christ. Now, I don’t know how we little guys can influence the pastor of a mega-church, but with Christ, anything is possible and I pray that Pastor Wright will pattern his actions after the Jesus that I know he loves. The fact that Joe is talking the talk is a good thing.. I just wish that Zao had half the resources that are available to Central Christian!
Sam, I’d suggest you go back and attend the Sunday before the next election. I don’t know, you just might have a different experience.At least you’re willing to find out for yourself and I admire you for that.
I have yet to see any of you show how what Pastor Wright said was contradictory to the Bible.
I wonder if any of you even take the time to look at all the minstries Central Christian church provides to many people in the Wichita community.
Nope. You just don’t like that what he preaches about homosexuality doesn’t suit your liberal agenda so lets just tear him down and say bad things about him and the church.
I understand why you non-believers do it. What I can’t figure out is how those of you who claim to be Christians can.
Damoon,
I see that yet again you mention the distortion of Christ’s teachings.
Perhaps you could be more specific on which teaching it is that Pastor Wright is distorting.
Nathan is back to his juvenile strategy of playing dumb and pretending not to understand perfectly clear assertions.
Get thee behind me, Troll.
The poor, the perverted, and the immoral people are exactly who Jesus came here to minister to.He did not ‘get tough’ with them, he converted them to his way of thinking and acting.
I believe in an all-inclusive Christ and Savior.
I’m a believer, Nathan.I seriously question the man’s motives and beliefs.They do not reflect the loving God, but a devisive, seperatist, vengeful God.I don’t know that God.
Once again, I already know your posistion.
I would like to see the scriptural backing for it.
I know Pastor Wright has the scriptural backing for what he preaches, I am just waiting to see what scripture you use to show how what he says is wrong.
Tracy, have you even talked to the man? Have you heard him preach? I have. He is not anywhere near the hatemonger you people make him out to be.
Just because he preaches what the scripture clearly says about homosexualty is no reason to say he is a hatemonger or whatever else you do along those lines.
If you are a Christian I would love to see why you discount what is said in the scripture.
We could trade tit for tat all day long, and both be right to some degree.I told you what I believe.If you want to believe that God hates gays, that’s okay with me. I don’t intend to critisize you. I believe you are sincere in your road to salvation, and how you work this out is not of my choosing.I wish that the gov’t reflected the values I find in Christ, just as you do. You probably believe I’m as misguided as much as I think others are. That’s OK.Salvation is an inward journey for me, and I try not to point fingers or critisize others who are on ‘the path’. Good luck and God be with you.
Dear Nathan, the disingenuous Troll,
I told you to read my post if you really wanted scriptural backing for my criticism of Pastor Wright.
The fact that you refuse to shows that you aren’t interested in an honest argument. That makes you ‘disingenuous’. And ‘disingenuous’, Nathan, is defined as ‘dishonest’.
So, Nathan, why do Trolls like you think it’s OK to lie about your intentions in order to prove a point or to trap an opponent? And in particular, why is this OK by ‘conservative’ Christians like you?
Tracy,
When did I say God hates homosexuals? I don’t believe that and the Bible doesn’t say that.
I am pretty sure that Pastor Wright has never said that either.
CF,
I did read your post. I read the scripture you gave too.
No where does that scripture show that what Pastor Wright is going against Christ’s teachings.
If you feel that scripture in someway shows that Pastor Wright is wrong then please elaborate.
Because from what I know Pastor Wright believes exactly what that scripture says, teaches what it says, and he probably doe’s his best to ensure the church he leads does too.
“It does not say that we who are Christians are to judge each other or anyone else.”
CF: OK, then let’s address that subject. If by the above you were saying that Christians are not to hate another because of their actions, then I agree with you.If you were saying that we as Christians are not judge the morality of an act, or of a failure to act, then I strongly disagree. We have every right, and in fact a responsiblity to do so, in my opinion.
We also have every right to speak up and call it for what it is. When, where, and if it is wise to do so requires judgement.
“If you want to believe that God hates gays, that’s okay with me.”
I didn’t try to put words in your mouth.
That was just an example of a belief that is different than mine.(A for-instance, if you will)
People have talked the scriptures in circles for thousands of years, and nobody here is saying anything new.
“we have rewarded laziness and called it welfare,” and “we have killed our unborn and called it choice,”I don’t agree with this man’s prayer. Good enough. End of commentary. Thanks.
Tracy, indeed.
Outlander,
Thank you for answering where Nathan refused.
As Christians, we do indeed have the duty to speak in the prophetic voice. But I do not see where this gives us the right to condemn the individuals we are commanded to serve–however sinful we find them to be. If I judge that someone’s actions are sinful, does this in any way release me from my obligation to serve them?
Christ, himself, didn’t condemn individual sinners, but instead called them to account and continued to accept them. By contrast, with respect to institutional power and injustice, Christ was harsh and implacable. This difference in attitude is marked in Christ’s response to the woman at the well, as opposed to his attack on the moneychangers in the Temple, or the Pharisees.
In the hands of a Joe Wright or a Terry Fox, the Gospel becomes a cudgel for the battering of political enemies. As servants of institutional power, interested in wedding themselves to the power of the state, they use it against some of the very individuals to whom Christ would have reached out, were He here.
In particular, it’s the ‘welfare’ and ‘laziness’ line that sounds MOST un-Christlike to me. Jesus wasn’t real big on blaming the victim and saying that poor people like being poor. Doing it in his name is extremely offensive.
Most of the injunctions against homosexuality come from the same Books that make cheeseburgers an abomination (mixing meat and milk)
CF,
You illogically try to connect Pastor Wrights statement to blaming the victim and saying poor people like being poor.
I highly doubt Pastor Wright thinks or believes that at all.
You only infer that from his statement with no evidence to support.
Why are you being so deceiving by trying to slander Pastor Wright with words he never said?
Thank you CF. Most eloquently said.
My Christ, and evidently yours, are the same.
No judgement, just loving tolerance, non-harmfulness, and inclusiveness.
No judgement, just loving tolerance, non-harmfulness, and inclusiveness.
Why would anybody take exception to such values?
It is not the values I take exception to, just the definition you give to them.
What is your definition of tolerance by the way?
Once again, everything Pastor Wright was preaching about Homosexuality comes from the Bible.
Do you not believe in what the Bible says Tracy? If you don’t then where do you get your information on Christ?
CF,
Doesn’t he just drive ya nuts?
I use Merriam-Webster, and The King James.(I especially like the RED LETTERS!)
Proud, he puts a lot of effort into this, just to get to that ‘AH HA, now I got you’ moment.
Tracy and CF,
Do either of you think there is right and wrong?
I suppose I should ask if either of you even think Homosexuality is wrong?
Lets look at what Paul says about Homosexuality in the NT, since there might be some confusion in thinking only the OT talks about it:
1st Corinthians 6:9-119 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Lets look at Romans 1:18-32
Pay close attention to verse 27
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Thanks for your commentary Nathan.Are you trying to ’save’ me, or do you just insist that I’m wrong about something? I don’t need instructions in theology, but thanks for the offer.
CF won’t be happy until all Christian leaders proclaim race-mixers, drug users, homosexuals and other degenerates to be living saints.
V.L.R.B!!!
Tracy,
You have a problem with what Pastor Wright preaches when it is what is written in the scripture.
I am qouting you the scripture.
Where do you draw your beliefs on homosexuality from if not the scripture?
I thought it was obvious that I thought you were wrong Tracy.
You said:
“I seriously question the man’s motives and beliefs.They do not reflect the loving God, but a devisive, seperatist, vengeful God.”
So where do you get the information on God from? I get mine from the Bible and I have shown what it says about Homosexuality.
Romans – written by a guy named Saul who never knew Jesus but only CLAIMS to have seen him in a hallucination in the desert.
I thought it was obvious that I thought you were wrong Tracy.
You said:
“I seriously question the man’s motives and beliefs.They do not reflect the loving God, but a devisive, seperatist, vengeful God.”
So where do you get the information on God from? I get mine from the Bible and I have shown what it says about Homosexuality.
Ben,
Do you believe that any part of the Bible is true?
I don’t have a problem with what you or the pastor believe, it’s just not for me.Your motives seem to be condemnation, and I don’t care to be a part of that.As far as what I believe, I’ll save that for prayers.My personal beliefs and salvation aren’t for public debate.
Tracy,
Of course I condemn sin! What should I do embrace it? That is what Satan would want, not God.
What would you have me or Pastor Wright do Tracy?
Say that being homosexual is not a sin and God condones it and everything is peechy keen?
That is NOT what the scripture says and would be a lie!
I do not understand why some Christians refuse to discuss what they believe.
Parts. Much of the Gospel for example. A lot of the history parts of the Old testament. Much of the rest is embellished oral history written millenea after the fact.
An interesting fact about the Bible is the controversy of which Books to put in and which to leave out.
Sorry, I guess there’s some men you just can’t reach.Your theological points are certainly valid in many circles of Christians, and I don’t discount them. However, I just don’t feel it’s necessary for me to lay out my point of view for your approval or disapproval. Suffice it to say that I do have a background in theology, I am solidly Christian, and very human.
Nathan, how did I distort Christ’s teachings? Back up your statement, please. Or is that too tough?
Tracy,
What is the point of telling me you have a background in theology and are a solid Christian while CONDEMNING what Pastor Wright is saying and not backing it up with scripture?
I am not asking you to lay it out for my approval even though I may or may not agree with it, I am asking you to back up why you are condemning Pastor Wright.
Damoon,
Have you checked the blog where you asked me before?
Besides, I am almost positive that I said you misrepresented what Christians actually do, and what the Bible says.
Sigh….Guys, you let him suck you right in.
Nathan, Fred Phelps, right or wrong?
I think what Fred Phelps does is wrong.
Do you think there’s a place in church for politics?
Is seperation of church and state a valid idea?
Do you think religion should play a role in the governance of this country?
Yes, my dear friends, there is a place in church for politics! It is right up front where the minister stands. We guide good people on every aspect of living a good clean life! Especially how to not tolerate loud music from kids, bad attitudes from minorities, begging from bums, hand outs for welfare loosers, and how to respect those who risk all to achieve what our leaders in Washington want! It is a thing of honor! You stinkin commie liberals don’t try to understand. We are chosen! We are the few annointed ones!
He said “annointed”, Huh, huh, huh!
There is a larger issue here.
Atheist that I am, I feel, a little more distanced and so more objective on the subject of Joe Wright and Terry Fox.
Now consider these two men:
Terry Fox raises the crucifix (cross) over a church he did not make but was BROUGHT TO! That cross now dominates the Wichita skyline. Just a few blocks north, serves I think better messengers of the teacher and wiseman that Jesus Christ. They have no sky reaching cross. They feed the needy.
And then there is Joe Wright. A man who has a radio program called “Wright from God’s word” (I am assuming the spelling of right or Wright here) One wonders just where Jesus leaves off and Wright presumes to speak for him. Ahh but there the presumption is just beginning! In one of his recent broadcasts of “(W)right from God’s word”, Pastor Joe discussed how that we all sleep at night. Now in Mr Wrights “parable” he did what was no less than a commercial for a mattress company and a local furniture store that sells said mattress. ( The owner of said store being one of his cogregation)!!!! And this while he pastors a multi-million dollar building of a church that sits on multi-million dollar real estate.
Now ya get these two prima donnas Wright and Fox together and you get a NEW radio program that now shares the airwaves of not just beknighted Kansas but the whole country. Clever name it has……..”Answering the call” How sad though that these men use a phrase that calls many to faith as a marketing tool to further themselves, while all the while they do evermore commercials.
I want to hear more from you Christians. Cause deal is It seems even this old atheist gets what is supposed to be your core beliefs better than the superstar and (admittedly self appointed) purveyors of your religion.
XXX,
“Do you think there’s a place in church for politics?”
Yes I do. We are members of the community and hold the same interest any other groupd of people would in seeing people who share similar values to our own get elected to represent us.
“Is seperation of church and state a valid idea?”
Not the liberal and ACLU definition of it, no. They have a much different meaning for what that seperation is and should be than I do.
“Do you think religion should play a role in the governance of this country?”
I don’t think that our law should be based on religion alone, no.
JR,
I don’t even know where to begin in addressing your statement.
It is full of assumption and purposeful distortion.
Pastor Wright does many things to lead Central Christian to helping alot of people in this cummunity and you are highlighting things and distorting them quite a bit.
His radio program may endorse certain products, but that is not the focus nor majority of the program. You make it sound like some evil sceme to make money and it is not.
As far as the church being a “multi-million” dollar building on “multi-million” dollar real estate…
That is from the contributions of people who voluntarially give money to see the church grow so it can facilitate more people.
I have not been to Fox’s church, but somehow I think I can safely assume that they are feeding needy people too.
Why don’t you grow up and actually research what these churches do with their budgets instead of trying to portray them as some evil greedy empire.
People…IMHO.. homosexuality is a sin.. period. That is why we minister to homosexuals, transvestites, adulterers, prostitutes, etc. Because they are sinners their only hope is God’s grace and mercy. They need the message and the love of Christ just as much as do liars, gossips and the greedy! (did I include all of us?)Noone was ever won to Christ by force, only by love and understanding and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Nothin’ like militant Christians to turn away possible converts.
Sam, you and I are representative of the views of an overwhelming majority of Christians.There’s no winning when you try to convince some people that “love is the greatest of all”. Other views than that are truly a distortion of JC’s message.Rev Cain, you really ought to get some help before you explode from the hatred of kids, bums and losers. You’re pitifull.
TRACY.It seems to me that when you respond to Rev Cain that you are just feeding a troll. He is just baiting you.In Pastor Wright’s message Sunday he made a very good comment, and I hope he was listening to himself. “You don’t boycott Disney, you allow God to send a good Christian CEO to change it”. In other words, the church is making a big mistake in holding a sinful world at arm’s length. Jumping up and down on the sideline and yelling “you sinners” at people is not the Christian way.. Jesus did not do that..
Let me tell you a story.A number of years ago, my wife was a writer, and well known and liked in the literary community and in the community at large. She had many friends, from many segments of society. At the age of 45, she suffered a massive stroke that left her severely damaged. By the time she came home from the hospital, nearly all of the people who called themselves christians had disappeared; didn’t visit, didn’t send flowers, even took her off their christmas card lists.The people who came to our aid were her gay and lesbian friends. All of them. They visited her, helped with her therapy, brought her (and me) wonderful meals, provided me with time to do the shopping etc., read to her, helped our children with their schooling, and did everything they could to make a bad situation bearable, and did it for six years, until her death. Many are still my friends.It hurts me to no end to see the people who wouldn’t lift a finger to help her use some scriptural reference to justify doing everything they can to make the people who did miserable! Now, I’m not christian, and I don’t really give a rat’s ass what scripture says. I look at the people I know, and go from there. When I hear christians claim to love their neighbors and then rant about “the homosexual agenda,” and gay teletubbbies and all the other prejudicial nonsense they’ve come up with, I think of my friends who made my wife’s life bearable, and saved mine, and I know who the hypocrites are! My gay friends know much more about real love than those christian bigots who exercise god’s love with a tire iron.
Nathan,
Why the myopic focus on homosexuality? Christ himself never mentions it. Never. Not once.
In the passage you cite from Corinthians, the context of which is an account of a highly dysfunctional church community, homosexual activity, along with adultery, was one of many practices that tore apart the church. It is far from obvious that Paul’s denunciation applies to committed, sanctioned homosexual relationships. In all likelihood, though, Paul probably wouldn’t approve of homosexuality.
So, it mattered to him, though not obviously all that much. Did it matter to Jesus?
What bothered Christ weren’t homosexuals. What bothered Christ, if we may say it, were rich people. He didn’t hate them. But He did regard their predicament as grave.
“And Jesus said to his disciples, ‘Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again, I say to you, it will be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 19:24
Moreover, this saying appears in ALL THREE of the synoptic Gospels. Here are the references.
Mark 10:25Luke 18:25
So, Nathan, why the refusal to follow Christ’s lead when He DID single out a group for condemnation, namely, the rich?
It says volumes about conservative Christianity, and its ties to temporal power, that it lends its moral authority to political efforts to further maginalize and oppress a hated minority.
Do we see Pastor Wright condemning the rich as sinful? No. And that’s good. Christians shouldn’t issue condemnations. But if he IS going to issue condemnations–and make no mistake, this is precisely what his ‘prayer’ ten years ago did regarding homosexuality and ‘multiculturalism’–he might want to follow Christ’s lead in doing so.
Reading his prayer, it does mention the poor. But only insofar as they are ‘exploited’ by the ‘lottery.’ He also denounces ‘neglect’ as results from the drive for ’self-preservation.’ In the first case, he gives comfort to the rich: the poor exploit themselves through their lack of good sense. In the second, he does actually speak in a mildly prophetic voice. But if one considers the blaming of the victim in his denunciation of welfare–and yes, Nathan, Pastor Wright IS BLAMING THE VICTIM–the result is a bit of a wash when it comes to speaking the in the prophetic voice regarding capitalism.
Pastor Wright is the head of an enormous, wealthy, powerful church. He feels comfortable issuing denunciations in the halls of power. It’s a shame that, when he did so ten years ago, his prayer seemed intended to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted.
Jed,I am so sorry. But I am not surprised.. your story is much too familiar and often repeated. I, myself had a similar experience when my father passed away. It was 3 months before the pastor of my “former” church showed up on the doorstep and said he had “just heard” the news. Hmmmm.. I was in no mood to share his concern at that point. My son is right now being treated very poorly by his “Christian” friends at his “Christian” school because he is not “Christian” enough. Well.. maybe he is not very “Christian” by today’s standards… but he is VERY Christlike. He is a devoted friend, he does not allow you to gossip about people, and he has a loving heart as big as the sky! He forgives them… he is still their friend… he sees their human weakness and knows that they need Jesus, so he prays for them. I should be so steadfast.. Point is Jed, we can’t blame Christ for human failures. He is not responsible for people having no compassion, He is not responsible for the church treating gays and lesbians badly. He is not responsible for our failure to live as he told us to. He IS there to pick us up and clean us up and help us to make things right. I so much want to make things right Jed. I so much want everyone to know and love the Jesus that changed my life. Look for him in the love.. yes, even the love of those that stayed and ministered to your needs. He is not pious and condemning.. He is loving and merciful.. and He was most often found among “sinful” people like us. Don’t harden your heart because his people let you down.. it may have been his people that stayed with you!
Jed,
I am sorry that happened. I have experienced somewhat similar things from many of my so called Christian friends in a time of need.
It was my Buddhist friend who surprisingly supported me through the thick and the thin.
Regardless, Christians are not perfect. No one is. There was only one perfect man and his name was Christ.
You are not a Christian becuase you follow other Christians, you are a Christian becuase you follow Christ.
Look to Christ’s standard, not that of imperfect men.
Also, you should not stereotype an entire group of people based on the faults of the few.
Nathan,It’s not the faults of the few I worry about, it’s the arrogance of the many who concentrate on everybody else’s faults while ignoring their own, or worse, trying to justify them with scripture.I have no particular argument with Jesus, but you’d think someone as perfect as you say could design a religion that wasn’t so vulnerable to abuse.I will continue to stand by my gay and lesbian friends, as they stood by me, and do everything I can to help them gain their equal rights as human beings.
Jed,
If this were actually about gaining equal rights as human beings… it is not.
Anything that relies upon man is prone to abuse.
Doesn’t matter what we are talking about.
Nathan – it is PRECISELY about gaining equal rights as human beings – under the laws of Caeser. For example, the right of two adults to bind themselves to one another for various legal and financial purposes. Why should Caeser not allow for that? And why should Caeser be involved with sanctifying in Law Church Sacraments?
Nathan,I realize that you christians feel your right to persecute whomever you wish is threatened. It is, and should be!And yes, it is about gaining equal rights for human beings. Gay and lesbian friends of mine have been fired, evicted, beaten and killed for no other reason than their orientation. You christians, with your diatribes against homosexuality, give your consent and comfort to such persecution, and are just as guilty as the yahoos that actually do it!Yes! It’s about human rights!
I remember those two Christians in Wyoming who beat a gay guy and then tied him to a fence to die. They said they should be released from prison because Jesus condoned what they did.
Ah Jed, why must you imply things about Christianity that are not true to form your argument?
Are you unable to actually produce an argument based on evidence and reason?
Ben,
What those boys did in wyoming doesn’t represent Christianity any more than your simply trying to find anything negative a “Christian” does to attack Christianity as a whole…
I agree Nathan that they do not represent Christianity. Any more that you do or than OBL represents Islam.
Then what was your point by bringing them up?
Simply to note that there are many extremists who claim to be ‘whatever’ and that NONE of them are representative. Sort of like what YOU do when you bash various groups based on your perceived worries about them. Like your claim that people are seeking ’special’ privileges rather than simple rights.
“Take another example of this grave disruption of nature in the U.S.A. today: the invasion of public life by gays and lesbians, men and women being “delivered up to shameful affections…changing the natural use into that which is against nature” (Rom. I, 26, 27), then flaunting their unnatural vice in public and being rewarded by the vile media with a blaze of publicity. And decent citizens seem unable to do much about it, partly no doubt because “in countries known as progressive and enlightened, we have created a senseless, filthy, abominable literature” (Pr. 14)
His Eminence Bishop Williamson,SSPXhttp://www.sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/May1-2000.htm
Kansassam, I think you are the best example on this blog of what a Christian should be about. I admire you for that.Nathan, it’s nice to actually read your posts since you’ve toned down the caustic attitude toward others and just express your beliefs. I may not agree with you, but I respect the sincerity of your faith.
Jed, I’m so sorry about your wife. My gay friends, too, are the ones I can count on through thick and thin. I will always go to bat for their rights, because they deserve to enjoy the same rights, freedom, and happiness the rest of us enjoy. No one in this country should be treated like a second class citizen.
Nathan? You defend Joe Wright, Terry Fox and the other builders of mighty buildings of glass and steel. You say they grow the church to hold more members……or words to that effect.
Uh nathan? Jesus didn’t have a building…..or a building fund. My read of the bible is he took the church with him. It was where he was. He wasn’t where it was. And as far as his helping hands. For him they were not a a “program” or words “in the wheelhouse”. They were a matter of personal hands on fact and application.
But I digress. The subject was the cuture wars and certain “Christains” place in them.
I cite the story concerning Mary Magdalen. She was to be stoned to death for, I assume, harlotry and promiscuity.
Now i am an atheist and can’t cite chapter or verse. But my memory of the story is Jesus rebuked the self righteous angry mob. He told them “Let ye without sin cast the first stone.” Now his own personal beliefs as to this womans’ sins are quite clear. But what did he do? He defended the sinner. He did not petiton Pilat to outlaw harlotry. He did not belittle or ridicule Mary Magdalen. He did not seek out Herod or travel to the Roman Senate to advocate changes to the LAWS OF MAN.
You’re pretty good with chapter and verse Nathan. Help me out here. Wasn’t there something along Jesus journey about “rendering unto Ceasar what is Caesars” I think I remember something about “praying in a closet” as well. Help me out can you? Then go help out Fox, Wright, Falwell, Robertson, Swaggart, Baker, etc.
I would like to comment on the scripture, below:
1st Corinthians 6:9-119 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
COMMENT: According to this scripture, we are ALL guilty of something that would prevent us from inheriting the kingdom of God. God does not single out homosexuals. He singles out ALL OF US! None of us (even those of us who are Christians) are without sin.
I Corinthians continues:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
COMMENT: It says such WERE some of us. But we were washed and made clean by Christ’s death on the cross. Homosexuality is just one of MANY sins that God says He despises. The truth is, God loves all of us. He does not hate us because of our sins — whether we are murderers, liars, drunkards, fornicators, cheaters, OR homosexuals. He loves us in spite of our sins — just as a father loves his son in spite of his bad behavior.
You bloggers who have singled out homosexuality as your hot button have lost sight of the true meaning of the scripture. You have championed one cause in the hopes that you would confuse the issues and defend your liberal viewpoints. I would urge you to read the scriptures for yourself. God never says he hates homosexuals — He hates the SIN of homosexuality. He loves all of us — enough to send his son to save us. I am just as guilty as the rest of you. Thankfully, I have the knowledge that I am covered by the blood of Christ.
Hardly any of you have commented on Joe Wright’s words, “We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.” He has a point, don’t you think?
JR — I am curious. Why do you call yourself an atheist?
Gertie, why do you point to those who “defend your liberal viewpoints” when it was Nathan (certainly not a “liberal”) who first mentioned homosexuality?
Nathan? He who doth protest too much…
Point: King James decided that Mary Magdelen was a prostitute. I often wonder how much was lost–or gained–in the many translations the Bible has gone through. For instance, the word “virgin” (or the Hebrew or Aramaic word for it) originally meant any woman who had not born a child. The definition changed over time. Kind of sheds a new light on things, doesn’t it?Reading the Bible and taking the words literally seems an effort in futility so many centuries and translations later.
7 of the world’s major religions use their own variation of the Golden Rule. If we’d all try to live by one of those variations, we’d all get along much better.
Damoon..I am not sseking a fan club, but thanks. This spring we hope to begin a ministry to the gay and lesbian community.. it will be interesting to see how the mega-churches react. It will also be interesting to see how the community reacts.. if it is truly a ministry of Christ, it is destined for persecution.. but we accept that and are prepared.
Interesting discussion.
You have some great friends, Jed.
This morning on the way in to work I heard a discussion about the pope’s latest encyclical. I am not Catholic, so I have to rely on the radio guy’s interpretation, which was something like this.
At least part of the encyclical dealt with 2 kinds of human love, eros and agape. Eros is the natural love that can exist between 2 people, including sexual love (no gender distinction made). Agape is a higher love, the kind of spiritual love that the church encourages to evolve in humans for Christ (no diety distinction involved).
The pope ’s point is that the church seems to have acquired a reputation for saying “no” to eros, but the pope wanted to set that straight. The church is saying “no” to eros but it’s actually saying “yes” to a deeper, more meaningful kind of love, agape. The point seemed to be that eros flourishes best in the context of agape; what the church objects to is the expression of sexual eros in the absence of agape.
Not sure I agree, but it’s an interesting argument. I noted that, in the interpretation I heard by some Catholic functionary this morning, it’s easy to see that Christ is sufficient but not necessary for agape.
RD, Nathan may have first mentioned homosexuality, but his comments set off a string of liberal backlash.
Listen, my point in writing was not to anger anyone. I simply wanted to point out that the Bible does not single out homosexuality as the ultimate sin, or as a sin greater than any other sin. In God’s eyes, sin is sin. He gives us a way to Him through Christ. He loves all of us… straight, gay, bi- or asexual. He wants all of us to come to the cross and be forgiven.
I also want to point out that God also loves all of us — liberal or conservative. We are all children of God.
Gertie,
Guess you missed the parts upthread where, repeatedly, I criticized Pastor Wright for blaming the victim. It was that part of his speech that I found the most reprehensible and un-Christlike.
‘Defended laziness and called it welfare.’ Please. If Jesus were a venture capitalist, this might be something he would say. But Jesus, obviously, was no venture capitalist. Gertie, seeing as how I posted REPEATEDLY upthreat about the passages in the synoptic Gospels where Jesus admonishes the rich, I’d like to see you square Pastor Wright’s words with Jesus’.
It is your conservative Christianity, Gertie, with its capitalist friendly, emasculated, and unchristian view of wealth and poverty, that most perverts the Gospel.
I’ll comment, Getie. People tend to make generalizations about welfare recipients. Statements like Wright’s only fuel more prejudice among those who don’t (and wouldn’t) venture into the world of the poor. All of my clients are on “welfare” which consists of supplemental security income and medicaid, to name two programs. Most of my clients are schizophrenic and the others are mentally retarded, all of them have physical disabilities and diseases, like severe COPD and insulin dependant diabetes. They are cognitively unable to care for themselves, and many of them lived in the state instituions before everything changed and they were put into the communtiy with “safty nets” to help them survive (I do medication management and treatments, plus I cordinate their care). Today I will see 15 clients, and there is not a “lazy” one in the bunch. They just had the misfortune to be born more helpless than the rest of us. The idea that everyone who recieves “welfare” is lazy or unmotivated is a myth. Yes, there are abuses in the system, just like with any system, but the majority of “welfare” funds goes to people whose disabilities prevent them from being independent and self supporting. We’re supposed to be a compassionate country, but when church leaders go public with their ignorance and “anti-welfare” rethoric, it makes things harder for those who already have it hard enough.I’d love to take Pastor Wright with me someday when I make my rounds, he might get an education. It’s easy to condemn others when you live in an ivory tower, away from the real world.
Damoon,
Taking care of folks is a hard job. Thanks for what you do.
damoon..I too appreciate what you do.. I couldn’t do that, so I’m glad there are people like you that are willing!
Da,Thanks for what you do. It’s a difficult job, and the attitudes surrounding mental illness only make it worse. As someone who has spent a good chunk of my life as a caregiver, I get a glimpse of what you do, and how necessary it is. Hang in there!I have a good friend who is schizophrenic (he might even be one of your clients). He’s sometimes a bit difficult to deal with, but he’s also a quite caring, knowledgeable and intelligent person who gets more letters to the editor published than anyone else in town, and he’s made my life considerably richer for his friendship.Too many people put the mentally ill and physically challenged people in a box, stow them conveniently out of sight, and forget that while they may be challenged, they are people first!
Sam,Exactly what kind of ministry to the gay and lesbian community are you planning? If it’s one more guilt trip over their orientation, or an attempt to make them straight, we don’t need it. There are already more than enough assholes doing that, failing miserably and leaving destroyed people behind!If it’s a true ministry, one that accepts gay and lesbian people for what they are and ministers to their needs, there are already several good ones. You might look up the minister over at Metro; he’s a good man who could help you understand the issues of the community, if you are open to it.
damoon – I agree 100%
“People tend to make generalizations about welfare recipients.”
It’s funny that Nathan got so upset when I returned the favor and generalized.
Jed..well, I believe it is a ministry to present the gospel message and the love of Christ to a sinful world. Yes, part of the gospel message is to repent of sin, knowing that Christ will receive you where you are, but that is not our emphasis! Noone wants to hear a message of condemnation from a stranger.it is our mission to love and care for people and introduce them to Jesus. then, as we learn what the real issues are, try to help in whatever way we can. Basically, it’s the same ministry we provide in Old Town.. prayer and support.if that sounds like a guilt trip to you, then please let me know.. that is not what we want. these folks are children of God and they need Jesus just as much as I do!
Sam,If you go into it with the attitude that homosexuality is a sin that must be repented, rather than just a way some people are, you’re going to not only lose your audience, but you’ll destroy people in the process. You would do better to simply forget their orientation, and look at them as people. You’ll find some pretty good people there!If you regard gay people as sinners, or evil people, you are ignoring the tremendous amount of love (and I do mean love, in all senses of the word)to be found in their community, and building a foundation for hate. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but isn’t loving our neighbors, enemies, etc. basic to christianity?
JR,
I may or may not be defending Pastor Fox, I was and I still am defending Pastor Wright.
First of all there are many things to take into account, like context.
Jesus was the initiator of Christianity. Of course he did not have a building. It was his job to train his disciples and spread the Lords word.
Regardless, I don’t see how that makes having a building to worship in wrong.
What is your problem with having a church building to worship in?
Ah yes, the adulterous women.
John 8:1-11
A part of this scripture you may not know was the last verse where Jesus said to the woman:
11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more.”
Jesus said to her to sin no more. So, if we are talking about homosexuals, I don’t condemn and neither should Christians. We don’t accept their sinful lifestyle. No one is belittling homosexuals as people. We don’t accept their sinful lifestyle. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
They too should go and sin no more by being homosexuals.
As far as the rest of your comments, let’s not lump names together. If you have a specific problem with a particular individual then lets discuss that.
RD,
Not much was lost in the translations of the Bible at all.
CF,
You incorrectly derive from his comments that he is blaming the victim.
That is not what Pastor Wright said and if you went and asked him he probably would not say that he meant that either.
You read into his comments to purposefully infer negativity to support you continued bashing of Christianity.
If you want to talk about what Jesus said about the rich, please feel free to qoute the particular verse so that we can actually know to what you are refering.
CF — I was asking for comments and I got some.
Thank you, Damoon, for your comments. I have great appreciation for what you do, and I know that those folks really do need the welfare system, and so much more. However, I work in a school district. I see the other side of welfare abuse — parents not feeding kids, but buying drugs, jewelry, new entertainment centers and violent video games. I believe that those people should be held to a checks and balance system. Are we rewarding laziness? Possibly. Are all welfare recipients lazy? Absolutely not.
To quote CF — “It is your conservative Christianity, Gertie, with its capitalist friendly, emasculated, and unchristian view of wealth and poverty, that most perverts the Gospel.”
CF, you don’t know me. I never gave my viewpoint of wealth and poverty. I simply asked a question.
If you did know me, you would obviously know that I am not at all what you describe above. I am not wealthy. My view of the Bible is straight from the scriptures. If you prefer to think of my conservative point of view as “perverting the Gospel,” then you are way off.
Nathan, thank you for speaking the truth and speaking out for what is right. My prayer is that someone from this blog site will find Christ.
You’re right, Gertie. People who abuse the system should be held accountable. It’s sad that people will take money that is meant to help take care of their kids and spend it on the things you mentioned. It makes me sick to see resources wasted like that when the disabled are getting their benefits cut to the core.
Nathan,I commend you for the stance that you have taken here.Sam,You obviously are involved in a ministry that is investing in what’s important – people. People are the only ones who will go from this life to the next. When you get to the point of helping homosexuals, you of course want to meet their spiritual needs and their physical needs. If they desire to get counseling to get out of the lifestyle, there are groups in town that can help you counsel them. “Freedom at Last” is one of them.Gertie,Your views best describe my beliefs.
Nathan, are you fluent in Aramaic?
Damoon, God bless you for the work you do with the disabled.
CF — To say that Pastor Wright’s statement was “blaming the victims,” is off base. As with any of the comments on this board, it could be taken the wrong way, if you choose to see it from a different perspective.
No one is BLAMING the true victims. What we can do is blame ourselves for allowing the government to create a sea of beauracracy and red-tape that allows some people to cheat the system and sit on their lazy butts, smoking their cigarettes and drinking their cheap beer, while their children starve and wear ripped clothing and holey shoes to school.
We should be thankful that there is a system in place to help the truly needy. But we seriously need to demand accountability and reform for those who are abusing the system.
NoJoCo, thanks for the kind words. Nice to know someone out there sees things as I do.
Sam — I just re-read your post about your ministry. I think it sounds like a wonderful program. Does it have a name yet? You really should not have to apologize if anyone is offended by the message of your ministry. Let the Holy Spirit convict, if necessary, and you just concentrate on showing love and caring to a lost world.
Let the Lord work in the lives of those who are open to your ministry. Thank you for sharing the love of Christ.
Jed…Being homosexual is not THE sin IMHO.. but having sex outside of marriage is sinful behavior. What I am trying to carefully say here is that it is not the “being”, it is the actions that go along with the desires. Sin is also lusting after men/women, fornicating, lieing, adultery, and gossiping to name a few. All sin needs repentence, but God knows we are not perfect, and one sin is no worse than another. Jed, we are not looking to “label” people.. but we know this group of souls have been unfairly judged and pushed away from the church. All we want to do is let them know that Jesus loves them, and he died for them too. They should not be denied a relationship with Christ because of man’s imperfect judgements.
“If you regard gay people as sinners, or evil people, you are ignoring the tremendous amount of love (and I do mean love, in all senses of the word)to be found in their community, and building a foundation for hate. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but isn’t loving our neighbors, enemies, etc. basic to christianity?” -Jed
My response to that is that ALL men have a sinful nature. All that means is that we have an inherent tendency to disobey God. That is why there has been only one sinless man in all of eternity. I have had many gay friends over the years, and you are right, they have been wonderful, loving, caring and devoted friends. One of them was a minister’s son, and his father still loves him like father’s do. Just like our Heavenly Father loves ALL his children. That is why he sent Jesus, and it’s just WRONG for any man to deny Him to any other man. Jed, I truly believe that the most neighborly and loving thing that I can do for anyone is to bring them into a relationship with my Savior. That is my desire and my mission.
Gertie..Zao Christian Fellowship.. we currently minister to the homeless, prostitutes, people with addictions, and anyone on the streets that has needs.
kansassam,You are indeed a wonderful voice in this wilderness. If all Christians had your outlook, we might not have the problems we have today. Thanks for the logical Christian reasoning, bro.
Sam,Sorry if I got you wrong. I’ve seen too many good people destroyed by so-called ex-gay ministries to be too trusting of those who would “minister” to the gay community. I also have a couple of friends who as teenagers were told by their pastors that suicide was a lesser sin than homosexuality. Luckily they didn’t take that advice, but I will always wonder how many did.Also, I find it rather disingenuous to tell the gay community that it’s really about sex outside of marriage, and then campaign for an amendment forbidding them to marry.
Jed..From the experiences you have shared, I can’t really blame you for being skeptical of our motives. All I ask is that you reserve judgement for awhile and allow our actions to speak for us.
I wonder if gay people are going to “flock” to your ministry. Generally, people dont voluntarily go to places where the starting point is “you are wrong.”
“homeless, prostitutes, people with addictions, and anyone on the streets that has needs.” If you are now lumping in gay people with those groups, well, I see how well this is gonna go.
Like I said before, being gay didnt even make the top ten, but adultry sure did. Why arent you devoting a special ministry to those straight, divorced fornicators? Those who cheat on their spouses? How about those who deliberately lie? You’d have a lot more subjects to choose from.
But that kind of ministry might hit too close to home for a lot of those doing the converting. Better to go after those poor, pitiful, unenlightened gays.
“All I ask is that you reserve judgement for awhile and allow our actions to speak for us.”
Sam, would you be willing to extend gay people the same courtesy and leave us alone? We already have enough people here telling us we are wrong.
ksfarmgrrl..we minister to anyone who needs Jesus, and that includes you. If we meet you, just politely say “not interested” and we will move on.I’m not sure gay people flock to ANY ministry because they are generally mis-treated. That is why we are taking our ministry to them. We also minister to the bar crowds in Old Town. This will be no different. We won’t be telling anyone they are wrong, I don’t know where you got that information.
Sam, I dont mean to be a smart alec here but this is what you said above:
“People…IMHO.. homosexuality is a sin.. period. That is why we minister to homosexuals, transvestites, adulterers, prostitutes, etc. Because they are sinners their only hope is God’s grace and mercy.”
Indeed, you are lumping us in with “transvestites, adulterers, prostitutes,”. I get this is your opinion, and you are entitled to your opinion and beliefs, just as anyone else.
But if you believe that sin is wrong, then you believe that we are wrong in how we live our lives. If you believe that your religion is our ONLY hope, then you are making us wrong and setting yourself up as the only way to be “right”. Hope for what? Living like you want us to live?
I dont know how better to show that you are making us wrong. If you go to minister to us with that attitude in the background, good luck in convincing any of us that you provide what we need.
Part of the problem I have with organized religion is the lack of integrity if you define integrity as being the same person on the outside as the inside. Sam, outside you preach love and hope, but inside, your true attitude seems to be we are wrong and only your god can make us right.
Gay people have spent a lifetime learning how to read both the spoken and the unspoken. Our very lives depend on it, and you cant fool us with false charity. If you come from making us wrong, we will hear it, even if you try to hide it.
ksfarmgrrl..I appreciate your concern.. but I did also say that liars, cheaters, gossipers, and for that matter lazy people are “sinners”. We ALL are.. including me. I really don’t care what sin people are in… I just believe that Jesus gives comfort and hope to ALL sinners. If I am lumping, I am lumping ALL MANKIND together.. the only thing that makes gays “different” in our eyes is the same thing that makes homeless, prostitutes, millionaires on crack, whoever is on the streets “different”, and that is they are not seeking Christ in a church.. so we are trying to bring Christ to them. Yes.. we do believe that life without God is empty and hopeless, and we want others to know that Jesus does NOT hate sinners, after all He died for us while we were sinners. The hope is that in Jesus Christ, you are welcomed back into the presence of the eternal loving God. I can’t offer you anything any better than that! It is up to you to reject or accept the gift… noone can force you to receive it.
Amen kansassam!
I’ll be curious to know how much success you have.
Sam, you said:
the only thing that makes gays “different” in our eyes is the same thing that makes homeless, prostitutes, millionaires on crack, whoever is on the streets “different”, and that is they are not seeking Christ in a church.”
Sam, with all due respect, that is why gays who are ALREADY serving as ministers want to be allowed to continue. They are seeking christ in a church. Why do you think some chritian gays want to be married in your churches? They are seeking christ in a church.
Not all gays are heathens sam, just the ones like me :) There are plenty of gays seeking christ in a church, the church just isnt too welcoming for most of them. Maybe it has something to do with being lumped in with prostitutes and crack heads.
You are free to accept or not accept whomever you choose in your churches. Just dont be surprised that many of us dont want or need your acceptance to live great lives.
And dont be surprised when we want our civil rights. “Civil” marriage has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with “stuff”. With property and how it is owned and divided and inherited. With financial and tax benefits. Not with morality.
Hell you can swing with six different couples in a night and no one says you cant get married because you are immoral. Civil marriage is all about money and property, not the “sanctity” of marriage. I like the joke about “what is so sacred about something you can do drunk in Las Vegas in front of an Elvis impersonator?”
Churches can have the domain of morality in marriage. With more than 50% of first marriages ending in divorce in kansas, and gay marriage not legal to influence that number, you have your hands full with your own straight people. Seems to me that is the morality problem with marriage in ks.
I recall a passage about “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto God what is God’s.” Seems to me that civil marriage is in Caesar’s domain and the morality of marriage is in God’s domain. It does aggrevate me when you all want both domains.
ksfarmgrrl..
“Sam, with all due respect, that is why gays who are ALREADY serving as ministers want to be allowed to continue. They are seeking christ in a church. Why do you think some chritian gays want to be married in your churches? They are seeking christ in a church. ”
Good for them.. I truly hope they have found him.
“Not all gays are heathens sam, just the ones like me :) There are plenty of gays seeking christ in a church, the church just isnt too welcoming for most of them. Maybe it has something to do with being lumped in with prostitutes and crack heads.”
You keep bringing up the lumping.. I’m sorry, but I will always consider gays part of humanity, just like everyone else in God’s creation. Whatever you do, have done, or might do, is not one iota worse than what this “recovering heathen” has done. And I am definately still far from perfect… that’s why I want people to meet my friend Jesus, because he is a much better friend than I could ever be!
“You are free to accept or not accept whomever you choose in your churches. Just dont be surprised that many of us dont want or need your acceptance to live great lives.”
We are not free to accept or reject whomever we choose. Christ made the sacrifice “once for all” not once for whoever we want in our fancy little club of like-minded robots. You are right, you could live a great life without Christ.. but He promises to make it better for an eternity.
“I recall a passage about “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto God what is God’s.” Seems to me that civil marriage is in Caesar’s domain and the morality of marriage is in God’s domain. It does aggrevate me when you all want both domains.”
That’s a really great quote.. I hope you don’t mind if I use it sometime? Look, here is my OPINION on all that stuff, and I am no Biblical scholar or bigwig in a church. As a part of the “body of Christ” I will accept every living being as a person that my Lord died for, and therefore they deserve respect.
Fair enough Kansassam. Maybe you sidestepped some of the issues here because you too are trying to save bandwidth. :)
I just wish I could keep the dictates of christians out of my life. I dont intrude on your churches and try to get laws passed to curb your civil rights or dictate how you should behave inside your church.
I wish christians would do the same for us and let us make our own choices and live as equals, not just lesser beings “deserving of respect”. I get your meaning sam, however, the farmers out here respect rattlesnakes too, but they still kill’em at every chance. :)
Sam, Farm Gal,I belong to the Unitarian- Universalist Church. We have been officially committed to equal rights for GLBT people (unofficially for much longer) since 1970, and actively seeking GLBT clergy since 1973. It’s been a great success, and we are one of the faster growing churches around!Years ago, we had what some of us called “lesbian row,” where many of the gay and lesbian members tended to clump together. That doesn’t happen anymore. Our GLBT members now sit wherever is convenient, and nobody seems to care what their orientation might be. We’ve elected some of them to various positions in the church; not because they’re gay, but because they are competent, caring and committed members.If a congregation as contentious as the Unitarians can agree on gay rights, any of you christian churches ought to be able to make it work!
Heretic!!
ksfarmgrrl…Actually, I lost part of that last message.You bring up marriage issues that I really struggle with. The church has issues today with hypocrisy as I’m sure you know. Well.. I believe that it is outright hypocrisy for a church that preaches obedience to Christ to be led by or marry ANYONE, (not just gays) who is OPENLY being disobedient to Christ in a non-repentant manner. Now, WHY I struggle so much with that is because I don’t know WHO gets to decide who is guilty. There are too many gray areas.. yes, BTK would probably not be a good pastor, but if he repented.. then could you consider him? How about gossips or adulterers? How about gays? Where do you draw the line.. if they repent? if they are not “activists”? the New Testament really does not give me any clear direction on the matter. It does tell us that in God’s perfect standard NOONE would qualify. So.. here’s where I am.. I say “unforgiven” people do NOT qualify. Since I am not the one giving the forgiveness, then it’s up to Jesus to decide. Woe be it for me to make any person turn away from seeking Christ. If I truly believe that God is in control, then I have to believe that he blesses what is pleasing to Him. If He is not pleased it will wither and die.
Jed..Just maybe your church has received a blessing?
Sam, once again with all due respect, I dont care what your struggles are within the church. Your church has no more relevance to my life than my dinner club does to yours…other than that you control the government to hurt me and mine, and my dinner club does not work to pass hateful laws that affect your life.
My dinner club does not try to censor public television airwaves. My dinner club does not condem you or make you wrong. I said before, what you do in your church is your business. If you wanna sacrifice animals or dance the hokey pokey, I dont care. And if what your church does or does not do creates a crisis of spirit for you, well, why would I care…other than you control the government and make laws to hurt me.
You can hire monkeys for ministers and marry cows and sheep for all I care. (Although I do pity the poor gays seeking something in your churches. But then, they join your churches by choice.) I just dont want your church dictating how life is governed for the rest of us who do not share your beliefs. Just let me have my civil rights, including how my partner and I are allowed to share financial benefits and have the same protection for our assets and personal decisions.
I know the church struggles with hypocracy. So then what gives you the moral authority to drag that hypocracy into the civic relm? Why do your struggles with hypocracy translate into laws that are harmful to me and mine?
Your churches can continue to have the moral high ground for straight marriage. I see what a good job you all are doing with marriage and morality.
And as for the comment that BTK would be ok as a minister if he repented but an unrepentent gay would not be ok, well…I think I will just let that stand by itself.
Sam, you seem like a reasonable person. Why cant you accept that we are capable of living our lives without church interference? That the government is for all people, not just those born again in your fonts? Do unto your own, dont do unto me.
Sam, you said:
“I believe that it is outright hypocrisy for a church that preaches obedience to Christ to be led by or marry ANYONE, (not just gays) who is OPENLY being disobedient to Christ in a non-repentant manner.”
I guess I am laughing here before I cry. It is ok to lead if you are COVERTLY disobedient to Christ in a non=repentant manner? Oh, I see. As long as the sins are committed in secret and behind closed doors, it is ok to be a leader. Yikes. I guess that is where the priests who abuse children get the message that it is ok as long as no one finds out.
Jed, I am glad you found something good in your church. UU and MCC and a few others are proud to honor their gay and lesbian members.
ksgirl..First of all.. I do not and don’t care to control the government.
Being COVERTLY disobediant is not cool either, but there is a road to forgiveness. I hope and pray that someday you will choose to seek it.
Your pre-dispositions cause you to read too much into my posts. I can see now that you are not open to anything any Christian has to say. I will do as you ask and leave you be, but don’t expect me to not defend my fellow Christians.
Sam, maybe you dont personally want to control the government, but many of your Christian churches do, and are actively bullying their way to that goal. I hope someday they too will seek the solace of the Flying Spagetti Monster.
I do appreciate your civility Sam, and the fact that you are willing to admit to questioning. I believe that you truely want the best for me, and I wish you well too.
I agree to the truce. But dont expect me not to call ‘em the way I see them either :)
Which Christian churches want to control the governent?
Can you please name me some?
I don’t think you can.
Just another one of your unfounded opinions again?
Hey Nathan,How ’bout we start with all those who passed out voter guides last election? And then there are all those who want their particular take on biblical law enshrined in legislation (such as who gets married, etc.). We can also include those who want, or claim we already have a theocracy. And those who claim to have delivered votes to the republicans and now are demanding various and sundry pieces of legislation that would favor their views on any number of issues.
Jed,
I see you didn’t name any Christian church that want’s to control the government either.
There is a big difference in supporting particular pieces of legislation and supporting particular candidates whom support similar values and wanting to control the government.
Jed, you are awfully vague about WHICH churches are doing the things that you claim they are. I believe there are a number of people in my church who probably don’t share the same politcal views that I do. If a voter’s guide was handed out in my church, my job would be to read the materials and FORM MY OWN OPINION on the candidates. I may or may not want to vote for a certain candidate based on a voter’s guide. You are assuming that Christians are mindless sheep, following conservative leaders blindly, without weighing the facts. You are putting Christians into a box, and I, personally, resent it.
Gertie,You christians have put yourselves in the box by letting the extremists speak for you! How many of you got out there and publicly opposed discriminating language being placed in the state constitution? How many of you protested the ill-treatment of Muslims by televangelists? How many of you actually stood up to Fred Phelps? You built your own box and climbed in yourselves!
Jed,
What discriminating language are you talking about?
What ill-treatment of muslims are you talking about?
Last I checked 99% of the Christians I know don’t support Fred Phelps.
Nathan, how about Fox, Wright, etc, who deny to gays the rights that straights can obtain under Caeser’s laws through the LEGAL institution of marriage. “Marriage” is NOT a sacrament of the church in this context; that is why I favor replacing the term with one that doesn’t do double duty as both a Caeser term and a God term. Taliban Terry prefers to keep gays in second-class citizen status.
Ben Huie: On what ultimate basis are our laws made but perceived morality? Are you are saying because moral beliefs are derived from Chrisitian principles that they are not valid? I reject that. Despite what you may believe there is absolute right and wrong.
Outlander – that is also what the Taliban says. I, on the other hand, call for separation of church and state. Or, put another way, “render unto Caeser that which is Caeser’s and unto God that which is God’s” Otherwise, as pointed out, churches are seeking to take over government.
JR, I like you more and more.Damoon, well said,… you are wonderful.
Nathan,If you really don’t know, maybe you ought to buy a newspaper once in a while. Since I find it difficult to imagine someone so ill-informed, I’m going to assume you’re just blowing smoke!
Outlander, I dont think there is much disagreement about “absolute” right and wrong. Murder, robbery, rape, theft by deception, etc. All are actions taken against someone without their consent. They involve protection for someone being forced to do something harmful against their will.
Gay marriage is about consenting adults. Is that just too difficult of a concept for you to grasp? The difference between force and consent? What is it about activities between consenting adults that draws you to govern our lives? If sinning was a reason to deny you your civil rights, all you straight people would be up a creek, right?
How about a law against adultry for straight married people? How about a law against fathering a child out of wedlock? How about a law against divorce? How about a law concerning re-marriage after divorce? Can you spell consistancy?
I dont believe we need laws on any of these things, but if we follow your logic about what “god” says in your “bible” lets get it on and legislate morality. Pass some laws on these subjects and set some really good examples for your children who are not gay.
If you really want to save the world and be equally hard on “straight sin” as “gay sin”, lets pass these laws!! Not so funny when it is your ox being gored.
Outlander, what do you suppose the vote would be on these “absolute” right and wrong issues? Absolutely on the side of the bible and your god? Or would straght voters then say morality is a personal decision not to be legislated?
So much for your absolute. It is only absolute when it is someone else.
Nathan,You say “Last I checked 99% of the Christians I know don’t support Fred Phelps.” Yeah, well where were they when he was spreading his load of hate at Matthew Shepard’s Funeral, and at funerals of AIDS victims? That 99% is awfully silent about what he’s doing to christianity. Maybe they don’t disapprove as much as you think!
Hey Farm Gal,The biblical law I like is the one that says a child that is disrespectful of his parents should be put to death. That would give parents some much-needed leverage!
Even Jesus recognized the separation of church and state with his “render unto Caesar” line. And even your god supposedly gave us free will to make choices, even if he thought they were bad. But then, I guess you all actually know better than your god, and you dont believe in free will between consenting adults.
I’ll take my chances at your “judgement day”. The judging couldnt be any more harsh than that meted out by present day christians. I mean, absolute means absolute, right?
Hee hee, I love having the blog to ourselves before the churchies get out. These posts should be raw meat for them while they are still all fired up from church. Onward christian soldiers defending democracy from the likes of me, the lavendar menace.
I will be with my mom at the nursing home today, not hiding from them as I am sure they will say. Cant wait to read their comments when I get home.
oops, lavender. my kansas education is showing.
You guys are too much… LOL
Jed,
You can’t prove that Christians support Fred Phelps because of their lack of protest.
I am not out protesting terrorists, but I don’t support them either.
Where do you get your logic from?
ksfarmgrrl,
I have seen some people try to bend the scripture before, but your saying that even Jesus supported seperation of church and state becuase of the “ceaser” line takes the cake.
Actually, both yours and Jed’s level of scriptural knowledge is quite funny.
I am not sure if I wan’t to laugh, cry, or actually take the time to explain them to you.
One more time for anyone who missed it:
U.S. Treaty with Tripoli, unanimously approved by 5th Congress, 1796:Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;
Why is it the Christians of this nation decry the theological governments of the Middle East, yet insist that their own country be considered Christian, up to and including the government? Nathan and many others here have used the Bible as their basis for laws they want enacted. Is that not a theological government?
Ksfarmgrrl, I’m with you. I want to see what would happen if they used all those laws from the Bible to govern. But then I’ve always said that Christianity for most is a pick and choose religion.
RD,
I don’t know many Christians who want a theological government and that is not what I am pusing for either RD.
Where do you get that from? Has someone here brought forth that argument?
As far as laws I want enacted:
Don’t have to use the Bible to justify them at all.
RD,
Ok. How is Christianity a pick and choose religion?
Do people pick and choose? Unfortunately yes.
Just like any other religion, no adherents follow it 100% to the core and many pick and choose too.
Has nothing to do with Christianity. Has everything to do with man’s imperfection.
Nathan,I think Ingersoll said it best-”Any man who followed to the letter every pronouncement made in the Old Testament would be a criminal. Any man who did the same with the New Testament would be insane.”
Nathan,”You can’t prove that Christians support Fred Phelps because of their lack of protest.”Using your standards of proof, you can’t even prove you exist, but your silence on Phelps has certainly been eloquent, given your propensity to protest everything you perceive as unchristian!
All..I’m curious exactly what it is that you want Nathan to do about the Fred Phelps clan. 1) Reason with them? Right.. I can tell they are perfectly reasonable people. 2) Beat them up? The authorities would frown on that. 3) Deny them their “right to free speech and assembly”? The ACLU would be forced to take Fred’s side. 3) Deny that they are acting in a “Christian” manner. Seems to be what Nathan is doing, and IMHO that is the correct and only response available short of buying a hog and joining the “Patriot Guard”.
Fred Phelps and his cronies are all about hatred and condemnation. They are modern day Pharisees. Take a few minutes to read the gospels, and you will see that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their “holier than thou” behavior. There is no doubt in my mind that Fred Phelps and his gang will someday have to deal directly with God for their hatred and condemnation of others. They may be surprised to find that they will be separated from God, just like the parrable of sheep and the goats.As a Christian, according to my interpretation of the Bible, I am to show LOVE to those around me, even if I disagree with them. I am having a hard time, however, finding a lot of love in my heart for Fred Phelps.
Take heart in this:
Matthew 7:2322Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
AND
Romans 12:19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
Sam — Thanks for the scriptures. It seems pretty clear to me that none of us need to worry about Fred Phelps. He’ll get his in the end! Unfortunately, he is leading a number of others down a path of hate and destruction.
Sam,I guess what hurts me is the silence from the christian community regarding Phelps’ raging hatred of gay people. He’s been vicious for decades, but it seems I only heard anything from you when he started picketing funerals of war dead.You all seemed to find plenty to say about the marriage amendment, but you were silent for so long to Phelps (some of you engaging in anti-gay rhetoric yourselves), that it amounted to consent for their hatred, and was taken as such by those who beat and killed my friends.If you really wanted to do something, do what you do best- gather in large numbers everywhere he shows up, and stand in witness against his hatred! And do the same for anyone who engages in hateful rhetoric.
Gertie, not only that, but he’s causing pain for the families of those soldiers. That’s the saddest part. Let’s face it. He’s definitely a marketing failure. I think most of us here understand that he is not a testament to the Christian religion. I’ll rely on Karma to take care of him and his. You’ll rely on God. Between us, that should do it.
“I don’t know many Christians who want a theological government and that is not what I am pusing for either RD.”
Nathan, it is exactly a theological government that many are pushing for. For instance, take the anti-gay marriage ammendment. This law is based on the teachings of the Bible, and nothing else. When the answer is that it’s against God’s law, how else can you define it?
Are you trying to say you agree that the United States should be a secular nation? If so, keep the Bible out of our laws, and stop using what God says to determine how others, who are not affecting you or your way of life in any way, must live.
“Hate the sin, not the sinner.”
Am I the only one who sees the word “hate” in that?
As for the “pick and choose,” yes, as humans we are flawed. Some of us more than others, apparently. Why isn’t the “render unto Ceaser” passage relevant, but those you post are? Either take the Bible literally or don’t. You choose.
Good post, RD. If we’re going to base law on the Bible, let’s first thing outlaw divorce.
“He who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.”
Adultery is a sin, like homosexuality, right?
So I say, if you’re going to outlaw homosexual marriage, then to be consistent you’d have to outlaw divorce along with it.
Since divorce is just as common among Nathan’s congregation as it is among the general public despite the clear New Testament injunction against it, I doubt that would be a very popular move.
And what fundamentalist preacher would have the guts to say it? Homosexuality is punishable with the eternal lake of burning fire, but divorce?
Oh, well, it’s a shame, a real shame.
kfg:
“Outlander, what do you suppose the vote would be on these “absolute” right and wrong issues? Absolutely on the side of the bible and your god? Or would straght voters then say morality is a personal decision not to be legislated?”kfg, you are attempting to reframe the debate and the issue. Nowhere have I said that it should be against the law for consenting adults to engage in homosexual behavior.
What I reject is the notion that society should place its stamp of approval and encouragement on such activity through, for instance, the legalization of homosexual marriage.
Just because a person’s views on the subject may be compatible with Christian principles does not invalidate them in the public arena. Christians have the same right to express their preference for what kind of society we should have as anyone else. It does not matter whether the preference comes from church, or the gang down at Joe’s Bar and Grill.
Render unto caesar what is caesar’s, and render unto to God what is God’s.
The speach he gave is to be used later to call anyone who doesn’t agree unchristian, to force the leaders to follow HIS ideas HIS feeling on this. A minority leadership instead of a majority,wake up and smell the propoganda!
Outlander said:
“What I reject is the notion that society should place its stamp of approval and encouragement on such activity through, for instance, the legalization of homosexual marriage.”
Does legalizing straight marriage where the participants had a child out of wedlock condone sex before marriage? Then you christians better get on your horse about that and not allow anyone who had sex before marriage to be married by a judge or a minister.
Got infidelity on your mind? DO you and your wife plan to have an “open marriage” or participate in the wonderful world of swingers? No one ever denied a marriage license to an adulterer. Do you think letting admitted adulterers marry gives the state’s approval to adultry?
I hardly think allowing a convicted drunk driver to eventually get their license back is state approval of drunk driving.
Better have a looooong questionaire for everyone before they get married. Wouldnt want to put the state’s stamp of approval on anything that doesnt suit the christians.
Outlander, it is called equal protection under the law. It is called civil rights. I hardly think allowing us the legal benefits of civil unions is placing a stamp of approval on what we do in our bedrooms.
If the gang at joes bar want to have laws passed based on their personal prejuidices, then they have no more validity in the process than bigoted christians do.
The law is supposed to be fair and impartial and protect everyone. I do not think the law was designed to favor one religious sect over another. What about christian churches that approve of gay marriage? Is your church just more deserving than theirs?
Once again, render unto Caesar what is his. Civil marriage is in caesar’s domain. No one forces you to marry anyone you dont want to marry in your church. Isnt that control enough for you?
kfg: Your analogies are not on point. You seem to be contending that allowing anyone who has sinned to marry is validating past behavior.
I am referring to prospective behavior and whether society should be placing a stamp of normalcy on homosexual behavior.
KSGrrl–your comparisons are exactly on-point. The right-wing sees homosexuality as not just as “sin,” but unacceptable sin, as opposed to all the acceptable sins out there–like Enron’s bilking retirees out of their life savings. That’s just business. Or Bill Bennett’s gambling . . . it’s bad, but it’s not (gasp!) homosexuality!
The fact is that you can’t allow all these other sins which are legal and then outlaw (gasp!) homosexuality based on sin.
It’s not consistent and uniform, and the law must be consistent and uniform.