The standard for acceptable governmental displays of religious symbols got murkier this week after the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that a Kentucky courthouse could display the Ten Commandments alongside other historical documents. The court said that the Ten Commandments were part of “an otherwise secular exhibit” and didn’t amount to an endorsement of religion. But this particular display is nearly identical to ones in two other Kentucky counties. And the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in June that those displays were unconstitutional because they were erected with a clear religious purpose. So which is it? Is there a standard to determine intent?
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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47 Comments
Well now, Don’t let the Bush administration anywhere near Kentucky. They’d be indited on all “Ten Counts.”
I personally have no problem with the display, and in fact think that it’s a good idea to display any moral teachings, historical or not.That being said, I don’t agree with the court ignoring a higher court’s ruling in an identical case. Furthermore, their argument is as cheesy as can be. If it is a historical display which in no way suggests religion, then the KKK could demand to display a burning cross with the same argument!!Wherin lies the problem. If it is displayed in connection with anything govermental, (buildings, courts, schools, etc.) then other groups will want whatever their particular ‘historical’ teachings or displays given equal public consideration. Imagine you are Jewish, Muslim or Buddist, wouldn’t you want your history displayed also??
What would Osama do? That’s what we did . . .
It is Jewish.
A tricky issue. I would support the posting if an integral part of a greater whole such as the engravings at the SC building with the Code of Hammurabi etc etc etc.
Taking the question to our schools why not teach a good Comparative Religion class? You might just learn that they all have similaw Laws.
We know it’s Jewish. I suppose they’re good rules to live by, no matter who’s history they belong to. Heck, I’d even endorse them if you wrote them Ed.
Good post Ben. My sentiments exactly. Go ahead and display them along with some stuff from Buddah, Mohamed, pick the favorite moral teachings from whatever your particular ethnic background is.Moral teachings = good.More moral teachings = better.
BTW, I’m on the side of whatever groups think that God loves ALL people, not just American christians.
TRACY – My guess is that He is amused by all people. He MUST have a sense of humor!
Interesting thing is that my wife’s Catholic school taught Comparative Religion.
I did write them, Tracy, and for a nominal fee, including shipping and handling and money for a new chisel, I’ll send you a autographed copy.
Ed you’re coveting again, and aspiring to be a money changer.
Let me know if it works!
Ben I think that’s great. My high school did the same, many years before the Kansas Board of Evangelism got everyone stirred up.
See Tracy, I originally wrote 11 commandants but the last one was, well, a little over-the-top. For a slightly extra additional fee, I’ll send you the original 11.
What I find interesting is that if I can get away from the Ayatollah-types (of all the religions) I find that they are actually quite similar. In particular, the three Abrahaimic religions Holy Books say much the same things.
Ben I just love this subject. Have you caught the part where they all have an avatar or messiah who goes through a ‘wilderness experience’?(even Buddah) A wilderness experience, an enlightenment, and then choosing of disciples. Also admonishing of religious pundits of their day. Good stuff. Verrry intelestink.
Tracy,
Yes, it is fascinating. You’ve heard of the Yeshua ben Pantera of the talmud who lived about 100BC? He was a philosopher/”magician” who was crucified for his preaching/magic. The resemblance to Jesus of the NT is more than just passing.
Then, there’s the ancient cult of Mithras. These guys had priests, a Last Supper, confession of sins, a “birthday” for Mithras at the winter solstice….and on and on.l
Oh, and we can’t forget the magi. Magi were Zoroastrian priests. Zoroastrianism was an up and comer at the time of fledgling Christianity. So here you have priests from the competeing religion worshipping at the crib of Jesus. The symbolism wouldn’t have been lost on anyone in those days who heard the story.
Of all those guys, Jesus was the ONLY one to claim that he was God! That is the difference.
Brian,I have studied alot about Mithras, and my thoughts are that I believe the book of Isaiah that prophesied about the Messiah was written long before Mithras. Also, current experts on Mithras do not believe there was any connection between Christianity and the worship of Mithras. It is really an interesting study! For what it’s worth…..
Cool. I know that Yeshua was actually Jesus’ name. Amazing comparisons huh. Yes I have heard of these, but haven’t gotten to read much on them yet. I’ve studied all the different types of buddhism, as well as a lot of christian theology and history.Mithras I know the least about.Essenes captured my reading time for a while. I don’t know why so many people read fiction when history and the truth is so much more interesting. Years ago I tried teaching a Sunday school class with all this as discussion.The class started out big, and the more we learned, the smaller the class got. Finally taught those fellow christians right out of class.
Sam,
I imagine it depends on what scholar you read. There are plenty who see connections between Mithraism and Christianity.
As far as Isaiah is concerned, you need go no farther than your local rabbi to get a completely different interpretation of the same prophecies…interpretations that have nothing to do with Jesus.
As far as Jesus proclaiming divinity, there is no proof he ever did. Jesus left no written records, and those written by his apostles and disciples are clearly not always firsthand nor are they journalistically unbiased. They werew written as propaganda pieces about the ‘good news’ preached by Jesus. How much of what we have is ‘pure’ versus what we have that is hearsay or later addition is unclear.
In any event, whoever Jesus was, he had it right. The ‘goood news’ is about ‘right action’ with regards to your fellow man. It’s not about ‘right theology’ or ‘right doctrine’. One’s true faith is displayed in one’s purity of action, irrespective of what one believes on minor issues of doctrine.
Tracy,
I LOVE buddhism…which accounts for my use of ‘right action’ above..along with ‘right thought’ and the others.
Truly a pragmatic view of what we experience…the nature of the divine is seen in what we experience every day…no doctrines, no dogma, no theology..just that which we experience.
Wow this is the class that I wish we had right here! People who’s faith is not threatened by reading and discussing other faiths. One dear sweet lady that I church with even told me that I was tempting the devil right into my life!Brian, there’s a new book out that I want a copy of, it’s called ‘Misquoting Jesus’, by Bart Ehrman. He takes us back all the way to the 1st century and the earliest bible text in Greek.There are huge amounts of text that have either been added or deleted since the first copies, and have totally changed (and warped in some cases) what christianity was and is supposed to be!!
Dude, I’m totally into it also.I have no problem being a christian and believing in buddhist philosophy at the same time. I’ve read whatever I could get my hands on.Have you read anything by Alice A. Bailey?I wouldn’t recommend starting with ‘A Treatise on Cosmic Fire’, but ‘Ponder on This is an excellent intro to Alice.BTW, that is my actual email, if you want to continue this discussion periodically!
Brian…You are right… but if there was positive “proof”, my faith would be worthless.It seems today thet the simple message “love your brother as yourself” has been lost, the Pharisees are back in control, and Jesus is probably not happy with his people.Enjoy the holidays!!
Tracy,
Thanks for the reference.I’ll have to now go out and buy it!! Have you ever read Marcus Borg or John Crossan (”Excavating Jesus” is quite a good book)?
When one starts to connect the historical and physical evidence to the biblical texts, one comes away with a far deeper understanding of what the gospels and epistles were about. They were mostly about convincing people to ‘test drive’ Christianity.
For example, Mark was written in the early 70s..just at the time Titus destroyed the Temple. The Temple consisted of 3 major shrines..one to Elijah, one to Moses, and in the center the Holy of Holies.
So at the very time that the Jews were reeling and shaken by the destruction of their temple, along comes a story about a transfigured Jesus in the center with Elijah on one side and Moses on the other.
The story clearly alludes to the destruction of the temple and is saying..”don’t sweat it, Jesus is the holy of holies..the NEW temple”. It doesn’t matter if the event actually occurred (in all likelihood it didn’t). The story was one full of symbolism and hope for the Jews. It was a subtle bit of propaganda meant to attract attention.
Tracy and Ben,There are so many points of reference that correlate with other cultures in other countries, even continents, concerning religious beliefs, that it boggles the mind.
When you boil down the Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, as well as eastern and Middle Eastern religions, the similarities are amazing. It’s enough to make one wonder if a god or messiah visited each of these cultures, and left his or her mark there.
My contention concerning religion is: if a person wants to worship a tree, who is to say that that person is not a morale person? Who is to say that person is not a religious person? I think that God, if he is as wise as most religions claim, would have no problem calling that person to Him. If there is indeed a God, and an afterlife, what difference does it make what a person believes in, as long as that person has lived his or her life in a morale fashion. Do your best, get rewarded; do the opposite, feel the heat.
Sam you are right that the only proof positive is what lives in your heart and shows in ‘right actions’.BTW, Brian I saw the Buddah standing outside a department store ringing a bell and accepting donations for the poor.Later on I saw him inside listening patiently to children who wanted gifts.I don’t think he knows that he is the Buddah, which only reinforces my feeling that he truly is a Buddah! Hah.
Sam,
Back atcha. Have a very happy and holy Christmas. Keep up the fight against the modern pharisees!! I’m not a Christian, but I’ll be right there with you !!
After all, to know Jesus is to know the WORD, and, in a nutshell, the WORD is ‘love your God and love your neighbor as you love yourself’. I don’t have to know the name Jesus or even anything about his life to know the WORD. And in knowing the WORD I know Jesus. After all, a rose by any other name is still a rose.
Ed, I’m just dying to hear what the 11th commandment was, lol!
Back to the thread…I see no problem with the 10 Comandments being displayed in a courthouse. They pretty well sum up our basic law. If you swear an oath on the bible in court….
And I agree JM. As I’ve been saying lately, I believe God loves ALL people, not just American christians!! And always do the next right thing is what the teachings boil down to for me.Can’t simplify it much more.
Thanks for the discussion guys.I gotta go take care of some responsabilities and I’ll check you later, merry christmas till then.
JM,
I’m not even sure there is an eternal justice. As the parable of the prodigal son points out, the loyal son felt jealousy towards his brother for the treatment he received from his father, but he also felt contempt for his father for not rewarding him and for accepting his brother back with no consequences. To make a long story short, our view of justice, reward and punishment, is not the view of the Father.
We should do right by our fellows not for the expectation of reward nor for the fear of punishment. We should do it because it is an expression of our divine nature..and we shouldn’t feel contempt or hatred towards those who are better off either materially or spiritually. We should rejoice in their material and spiritual good fortune because the good fortune of everyone is what we strive for.
As for this blog: There is a huge significant historical background in the ten commandments. Not only is it a religious document, but a moral one as well. If one were to leave out the false gods, the document reads as an overview of moral law: Don’t covet your neighbors wife, don’t kill, don’t steal . . . who but anarchists would have a problem with that?
So, display it? Sure. Just label it as a historical document. If other religions have such doctrines pertaining to everyday life, why not display them? God knows, this country could use a major dose of moral teaching.
Brian,The parable is just that: a parable. It shows how incorrect the thinking was of the son. But you are correct in that we, as a species, are reward based.
Does that mean we should not think like the Father? As a reward based people, it is difficult, but not impossible. But most, if not all, religions have a reward system in place: Bask in the glory of God, 72 virgins, etc.
Maybe that’s God’s way of pulling us in?
What I have pointed out in the past and some have dismissed, the Ten commandments ARE a part of our legal system. For centuries its has been an influence of the formation of several of the laws that our laws are copied from. In that aspect, it would be perfectly nature for it to have a place in a listing of the foundations of our legal system.
I agree that there is no harm in a written philosophy being displayed to remind everyone of good conduct to everyone. That there are common sense policy such as: Treat other as you want to be treated, do not steal, do not lie, etc. If we remember the ten commandments and the Golden rules, how much better a species and a country it would be
Honor thy father and mother? And if they are abusive?
Thou shalt have only one God?
Keep the sabath holy?
No, writerdog, not all of them.
That is why I go with comparative religion – they ALL have thou shalt not steal, commit murder, etc. This way it’s not just some Middle Eastern book we rely upon but many varied traditions. I would even include the spoken traditions of my forefathers here in North America. These were in this land long before the invasion/genocide.
The discussion about reward for doing good and the prodigal son is also addressed by Jesus in other scripture.”He shall reward every man according to his works.”"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.”IMHO, I think JC is directly disrespecting the ‘good son’ in the parable. He’s also praising the father and the lost son. The father for forgiveness and the son for repentence. The good son has already recieved his reward, that is the fact that he was good, but JC has a problem with the good son for being a suck-up.Anyway, the overall tone of the posts above tells me that most people have no problem with the ten commandments being displayed, but this being America where all men are equal, we need to be prepared to display others’ “historical” sayings. If the people involved in this are not willing to do that, then they are doing this ‘in the wrong spirit’.
The only problem I have with displays in the courthouse is when do we stop?
This country was founded on religious freedom.
How many religions are represented in the US?
If each religion wanted their own display, each courthouse would need to add another wing just for these displays.
It wont’ happen, the same people who think the ten commandments should be displayed also believe only their religion should be allowed.
Yep, it’s all or nuthin’ if you’re going to keep it in the spirit of equality.
Our laws are based in part on old English common law. Which are based in part upon the ten commandments. though not word for word, it isun-deniable that if displaying the origins of our country’s laws. The ten commandments belong there. It would not be about religion but on what lead to the laws of the land.So a display containing the ten commandments would be valid.
I display that singles out the commandment would not.
I agree writerdog. AS A PART OF a history of our laws the 10 should be there. It might also include the old “blue laws” and anti-miscegenation laws that were based on interpretation of the Bible. Fortunately most of those have been eliminated.
It would also be interesting to include the old laws in Massachusetts (passed by the Puritans) prohibiting Christmas trees and prohibiting my people (Native Americans) from entering Boston. That last one was only repealed about a year ago.
Those who enacted those laws claimed to be good Christians. I doubt their claim.
The Origins of Christianityhttp://www.truthbeknown.com/origins4.htm
There’s more to the article, but this shows the major religions prior to Christianity and what they and their deities had in common.
Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.” (KJV).
“What would Osama do?” Why didn’t I think of that? That’s good, Galahad. You’re always a step ahead of me, always saying what I wish I had thought of first.
Why not create “The Ten Suggestions”? That way it could be inclusive of all religions and no one would be offended.
Interesting. All the “liberals” get into a spirited religious discussion.
The “conservatives” don’t need to discuss anything because they believe exactly what they were told to believe.
Thanks, Steve.
But you like all conservatives have two perfectly good legs but insist on walking backwards (FDR).
So staying a step ahead of you is really no problem, is it.
I prefer the Mad TV version where the Terminator was sent back to save Jesus.
He kept killing Judas to save Jesus.
But, each time Arnold killed Judas, Jesus brought Judas back to life…cause there was a master plan.
And, after Jesus was led away, Arnold turned to a crying bystander and said…he’ll be back.