State Board of Education member Janet Waugh raised a concern about school vouchers at Tuesday’s board meeting that many people share. She asked Kansas Education Commissioner Bob Corkins whether he would change his voucher proposal so that private schools would have to accept every eligible student and would have to comply with the same standards as public schools, the Lawrence Journal-World reported. When Corkins said that he wouldn’t, Waugh asked him why. He replied that no private school would participate under those conditions. If private schools accept tax dollars, shouldn’t they have to play by the same rules?
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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35 Comments
Phillip asks: “If private schools accept tax dollars, shouldn’t they have to play by the same rules?”
Yes, Phillip.
But, how profitable do you think such rule adherence might be?
“Not very”, Phillip says?
Well, Phillip, you would be right.
The whole point of private schools is that they don’t have to follow the mindless, excessive, harmful, political agenda-ridden regulations that public schools have to.
Instead of dragging all students down to the same level, vouchers would let some escape.
Isn’t it quite arrogant that the education establishment insist that only they have the right to educate children at taxpayer expense? What a nice protected monopoly for them. If I were them, I would be afraid of competition, too.
I don’t see private schools ever falling for this. I’m not under the impression that they’re financially strapped and begging for government money. They will always run their own show, that’s why they’re so successful at turning out highly educated students.
Arrogant. Isn’t it arrogant to propose competition without using the same rules. The public schools are not afraid of competition, but of inequitable competition.
You said it: the mindless, harmful, political agenda driven regulations that public schools have to abide buy. You want to fix education, work on those and societies failings such as single parent homes, lack of parental support, poverty, apathy about education etc.. None buy itself is a killer but all together they are dragging schools down.
The only other way to teach all kids and have great success is to fund schools to the point of excess where student teacher ratios are so low that teachers can build a rapport to help those students whose outside life is causing them to struggle. Schools are having to become the parents, and its tough to parent 100-125 students each teacher has daily or yearly
Damoon,I agree with you all the way on that. The problem is: when public schools fail in their task to educate, and vouchers are available, should private schools be subject to all government regulations concerning education?
Hell no! That would make them no better than the public schools that failed in the first place. If the government is going to fund vouchers, ensure that the recipient school is accredited, period.
Private schools are known for putting out children that are educated and ready for college. Why mess with something that works?
Oh, shoot . . . I forgot . . . the liberals (Socialists). Can’t have something that works (and just might teach children a sense of decency). That would be bad.
Steve–Did you go to private school?
Please, God, let the answer be “yes.”
Great post, Scott. You said everything I wanted to say.
Mega-dittos!
Lets rephrase this. What is it that makes private schools so much “better” educationally than public schools or why do you believe that public schools are failing? Maybe the answers can help the discussion.
While many don’t think the NCLB program is sound, it is showing that the public school system is failing in educating our children. The tests show that. And while the tests could use revisions to reflect more regional values, they are still showing many problem areas.
Private schools provide a better education because they can focus on the three R’s. They don’t have to subscribe to the politically correct path mandated by the government. Most adhere to strict conduct codes, including dress, language, respect for others, and respect for their teachers; fail those, and the student will find him/herself back in public school.
I went to a private school for twelve years, and graduated from high school there. I doubt I would have received the same high degree of education at public school.
I think one of the questions asked is why most political figures send their children to private schools? Is it because of notoriety? Or is it because they know their children will get a better education? To me, a government figure, who sends his or her child to a private school, then sounds off at people who want assistance in sending their child to the same place, smells of hypocrisy
Let us not even go over the question of whether market forces always improve a service quality and lowers cost. Let’s not even go there.
The proponents of vouchers say that this redistribution of tax dollars (and that is what it is, a redistribution of tax dollars) will introduce competition into the system. This contention fails to recoginize that public schools already compete with private schools. In most places in this competitive market, public schools perform quite well.
If you accept my contention above, one then has to ask the question, what is the need for this redistribution of tax dollars? The answer is simple, conservative republicans are against the redistribution of taxes/wealth unless they are the beneficiaries of this redistribution.
Vouchers are welfare for the upper classes. More welfare is just what the well-off need during the Bush administration, right?
Steven E,Your hypothesis holds absolutly no water whatsoever. It is Liberal claptrap of the first order.
It is a fact that where vouchers are used, the majority of them are used by minorities. And the majority of the minorities (what?) are Democrats.
Whether or not market forces drive education comes much into play: if a family unit cannot get a quality education at a public school, they will turn to a private school IF THEY CAN AFFORD IT! Otherwise, only the rich will send their kids to private schools (see politicians in my above post).
What vouchers attempt to do is level the playing field for all.
So, “Vouchers are welfare for the upper classes. More welfare is just what the well-off need during the Bush administration, right?”
Wrong!
Unless a voucher is worth upwards of $5,000 to 10,000 per school year – the cost of private education these days at the high school level, and even in the elementary grades sometimes – what good does it do a family who can’t afford to make up the difference?
Hey Walker,I guess you haven’t been to my store, i.e. “Liberal Claptrap Are Us.”
Concerning this remark: “It is a fact that where vouchers are used, the majority of them are used by minorities.” You have data to back up this claim?
Also, my understanding of when vouchers were used, this was done in settings where there was a completely failed public school system – something that is not true in Kansas; and the results from this experiment was not necessarily supportive of the use of vouchers.
Do you know something different from the above?
Am I correct in understanding that all this hoopla is moot, since it would be up to the legislature to enact a voucher plan? It is not up to the BoE and their empty suit Corkin, but the legislature, and from what I have heard, that ain’t gonna happen.
Take THAT, BoE!
Brian,Good question.
There would be very few, if any expensive private schools that would accept vouchers IMHO. If they were required to follow public school rules, then they would lose their advantage. Since they cater to the upper income folks, they do not need to accept a kid with a voucher. From what I have seen, it’s pay up… or go find another school.
Ray,You are correct, it will have to come from the state legislature and most likely it will not happen this year.
I still think it is a good idea to examine the data supporting, or not supporting, the voucher idea. Because, clearly the likes of Corkins, Morris, and Abrams will be going away, just not soon enough.
PRIVATE. PRIVATE. PRIVATE.PRIVATE schools need PUBLIC funding? Huh?
If that’s the way it works then I’m starting a PRIVATE school soon.Vouchers or cash accepted.Sign up now.Don’t you worry about PUBLIC standards, we’re a PRIVATE school, and I’ll spend the money on a new X-box if I want to.
Tracy,I suppose they’re just getting in line with all the other businesses that want to eat at the public trough. We’re already subsidizing gyms, hotels, manufacturers and contractors, so why not schools and churches? Seems like we’re heading more and more toward a German National Socialist economic and political model.
Steven E,well, let’s see:
“An analysis of the Milwaukee publicly-run voucher program by the officially appointed researcher. According to Witte, the parents of “choice” kids are virtually unanimous in their opinion of the program: they love it. Parents are not only far more satisfied with their freely chosen private schools than they were with their former public schools, they participate more actively in their children’s education now that they’ve made the move. See the review of “The Effectiveness of School Choice in Milwaukee,” below, for a note on academic achievement outcomes of the program.”
The following links provide all the information you asked for, including demographics, racial profiling, income levels of those choosing the voucher program, and their likes and dislikes:
http://dpls.dacc.wisc.edu/choice/choice_rep95txt.html#CFandS; http://dpls.dacc.wisc.edu/choice/choice_rep95.html; http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/cleveland1.htm; http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62607-2004Sep4.html; http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/index.cfm?lesson=EM185
If that’s not enough to clue you in the fact that I know what I’m talking about, then further discourse would be pointless.
My main point, and this is my opinion, is vouchers can help pave the way for children who live in areas where public schools are failing, to get a quality education. The children come first! ALL else is secondary!
And the private schools should NOT have to follow government guidelines because that would only put the private school on the same level with the public school: failing the children.
Tracy,It’s not the private schools that need public funding, it’s the children who are getting a mediocre aducation that need the funding to attend a private school. You have it backwards.
One point I will make: Private school children, if on the voucher program, SHOULD have to pass the same tests as their public school counterparts. That’s a no-brainer.
Walker,
Thanks for providing the links above. I will look into what you have provided.
I have heard, but only from secondary sources, that the Milwaukee experiment did not provide an overwhelming endorsement of vouchers. Being someone who is familiar the sometimes mushy nature of social science and eduction data, I hope that some of what you provide above are primary source information.
Also wanted to say that the far right mantra about “school choice” is a very large red herring at least in Wichita and Kansas. Public school educated children and families already have school choice.
This year my son is applying to two different high school programs. One will be the Northeast magnet and the other will be East High’s IB program. I am almost afraid he will be accepted in both and then have to do some real thinking about which one would be better for him. He is a gifted kid and will have the opportunity to take computer science classes at WSU if he goes to the Northeast magnet, but all of his Asian buddies will be going to East’s IB (which is a premiere program in academic excellence and a place to earn college credit while in high school). Northeast is a pretty small high school by Wichita standards, which makes it pretty attractive to me.
Sometimes too many choices can be as stressful as too few.
At most private schools the children have to pass an entrance exam prior to being accepted. It doesn’t make sense for them to throw their doors open to any kid with a voucher.
If they were a problem or at-risk kid in a public school they won’t change if accepted to a private school.
I think the voucher program would be good for those kids that are being overlooked because they aren’t problem children. I’ve spoken with elementary educators and they are frustrated because they spend 80% of their time dealing with the kids with behavioural problems while neglecting the kids that are there to learn.
And Walker, private school kids DO have to pass the same State BOE curriculum. Even that stupid Intelligent Design part they just added. I don’t think this will be a problem as The Independent School recently won a National Blue Ribbon for their excellence. One of seven schools in KS to do so. It is the only school in Wichita to have received this award in the past six years and the only private school in Wichita to have ever received it.
Steven,Seems we have common ground. A good thing. And I agree with you on choices. Hope your kid gets what’s best for him.
I think you will find what you are looking for at the sites provided.
Biz,I wasn’t aware that the private schools had to pass the same tests. Thanks for the info.
If you can start a child young enough on a decent educational trail, then getting into a private school wouldn’t present a problem. I suggest you take a look at the URL’s I posted. There is some excellent information in them on vouchers, private schools, and the impact they are having.
I remember when this guy wanted to hire a consultant. I suggest he check out the monkeys and apes in the zoo. They have a higher IQ than this idiot.Vouchers? Why not just take an ax to public education?Also, some of us are not Christian and we don’t want our children’s minds polluted with this zombie escapism.
Walker,
I’ve only finished your first link, i.e.http://dpls.dacc.wisc.edu/choice/choice_rep95txt.html#CFandS;
And this was their conclusions:”We ended the Fourth Year Report by summarizing the positive and negative consequences of the program. We then wrote:
“Honorable people can disagree on the importance of each of these factors. One way to think about it is whether the majority of the students and families involved are better off because of this program. The answer of the parents involved, at least those who respond to our surveys, was clearly yes. This is despite the fact that achievement, as measured by standardized tests, was no different than the achievement of MPS students. Obviously the attrition rate and the factors affecting attrition indicate that not all students will succeed in these schools, but the majority remain and applaud the program.
“Although achievement test results may be somewhat more bleak for choice in this analysis, the differences are not very large in terms of their impact, and the negative estimates are based on less stable models and smaller sample sizes. In addition test scores are only one indication of educational achievement. Thus we see no reason to change last year’s conclusion.”
Walker, I am a “stat geek”, so you sent me some wonderful stuff.This data analysis from the Univ. of Wisconsin looks to be fairly well done, and I did not see too many instances of the authors confusing alpha levels with effect sizes. I am going to reanalyze the data using standaardized effect size differences to see if any different interpretations might emerge.
But, from just this first one, it looks like that when it comes to the rubber meeting the road – or achievement test scores – there were not statistical differences between the public school controls (low income public school kids) and kids in private schools on vouchers.
I will look at this more and thanks again.
I agree with you JM. They don’t need and shouldn’t get public funding. My point is and was that the first nickel they recieve from public money (in effect) turns them into public schools!PRIVATE. PRIVATE.They can fund and operate anyway they wish because they are private.
Steven,No problem. If the stats point to little or no difference, than I could be wrong. I do consider myself very open minded, which is why I belong to neither party:-)
Tracy,We will always disagree on that point, but I don’t have a problem with it: That’s life.
I’ve a teaching certificate and a BA degree that I spent years to earn. And YES, I’m one of those liberals J M Walker loves to make fun of. Why spend years in a class room when People like J M Walker can show us a few blogs?Has J M Walker ever been to a country such as El Salvador, where they now have public education, but didn’t a few years ago? I’ve been there and I’ve seen where you conservatives have us headed, one class well educated and the other completely educationally dysfunctional. That’s what they had before “socialist” pushed for universal education in El Salvador. They feel proud when their kids get through the 6th grade and you people bitch about a proven education system as if it doesn’t work at all. Too bad you have to rely on conservative blogs for all your information, because it’s mostly wrong.
Otto,Being a conservative is not what I am. Being an open minded individual (something your socialist agenda discourages) is something I am.
And, yes, I have been to countries that have their children working fields, dodging bullets and bombs, scrounging for food for something to eat, burying their dead with no time to mourn, and watching mothers seeing their husbands and sons slaughtered by the ruling class. It was called Viet Nam.
I have earned my right to speak about problems in the school system. If you were intelligent enough to read my posts in the first place, you would see that I qualified everything I wrote.
You, on the other hand, have done nothing but spout trash talk. As if that is going to get anything across. Congratulations or your education, but from what I read of your posts, you must have got it publicly. Should have taken them vouchers, Otto.
Public schools were not created by liberals. They were created by capitalists who wanted to turn the children of immigrants into compliant workers. Teachers unionized because they recognized they were abused “education factory” workers, and so they sought collective protection and benefits. Reality: public education is an Industrial Age construct. It was designed to promote rapid industrialization. But America’s future is NOT rapid industrialization. This is being given to the Third World. Our 21st century schools must be completely different from those of the late 19th to mid-20th centuries.
The “failure” of public schools is not that they are not doing a reasonable job of inculcating “traditional skills”. They are doing this well. But “traditional skills” are not valuable today. Basically, industrialization was premised on achieving high aggregate production as the sum of low individuals’ production. This is why Asia can outperform the U.S.: it can achieve far higher production through low individuals’ outputs, because it has far more individuals.
Vouchers will remove higher-performing students from public schools. This is okay. Kansas needs more students to perform well. It needs leaders for tomorrow. If Wichita public schools’ leaders want to capture the best and brightest, let them develop a high school or two that lets the best students take 5-8 Advanced Placement courses, instead of being restricted to 3 AP or IB college-level courses. This is what schools in Johnson County are doing.
Last year the Distrrict 259 Superintendent and BOE torpedoed a proposal to create a gifted-students math and science academy. Nobody told them that Wichita’s linchpin industry, aviation, is applied math and science. Nobody told them that if Wichita had such an academy, it could attract companies whose execs wanted a 21st century education for their own children. So, in ignorance of these facts, the Superintendent and BOE made a wrong decision. But it wasn’t their fault, because they just did not understand. Nobody enlightened them.
Public educators LOVE for students to be home-schooled, if they follow the State curriculum. It makes money for them to get head-count revenues, without having to have kids in classes. If they were wise, they’d allow home-schooled students to receive parentally-devised regimens, and enable these students to take lab science and foreign language classes in public schools. But public educators don’t understand this concept. This is because they were confused high-school students. They were recruited to promote an Industrial Age set of paradigms, to produce a majority of low-productivity individuals that are useless today.
Disagree? Then contact the Superintendent and your BOE rep, and ask, “How many AP/IB courses did you take in high school? Were you a National Merit Scholarship Finalist/Semifinalist/ Letter of Commendation winner? How many semesters of calculus did you take in college? Did you take ‘college algebra’? If so, why did you have to retake high-school algebra in again in college?”
Mark,
Impressed by your post. Do you have thoughts/recommendations on what public schools should/could do to facilitate labor for the new paradigm? Or, is it your view that they are too hopelessly 19th century to get on board the new train?
Please excuse our Ian. He’s repeatedly failed our Remedial Manners class.
Mark,Almost all educators, teachers, and administrators come from the bottom of the intellectual barrel. Everybody from any college knows that the school’s education department is a joke.
Some years back, an Eagle editorial writer lampooned the new school supervisor’s ignorant “Doctotal Thesis.” He was right. The “thesis” was a piece of garbage by any possible measure. Too bad it was representative of most educational “doctorates.”
No, you won’t find many high ranking students who aspire to work in a bureaucratic, politically correct, unionized environment that worships multiculturalism and moral relativism. Fortunately, the tendency is much less here than in the “enlightened’ coastal regions of the country.
It’s amazing that so many good teachers exist here in Wichita. They do well and work hard. Sure, there are maddening exceptions; but I’ve met mostly good ones and my kids learn from them.
Walker,I have looked over the data concerning the Milwaukee experiment of providing vouchers for poor kids and the comparisons with poor kids who stayed in the public schools.
I don’t think one can conclude much of anything at this point and it remains an open question on which would be better in terms of promoting achievement as measured by standardized tests. Clearly the parents were happier with the private school option and more involved with their kids’ schooling — which can only be good things I would think.
I am going to resort to the old research saw — more data in different settings are needed.
Thanks.