The Bush administration’s prewar claim that Iraq had ties to al-Qaida was based in large part on statements made by a prisoner in Egyptian custody, The New York Times reported. The prisoner has since said that he made up the story to avoid harsh treatment.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told European nations last week that the United States “does not permit, tolerate or condone torture under any circumstances.” But the report raises questions about whether the administration secretly relies on Third World countries to do the dirty work.
And it underscores a point that we have made in the past: Torture doesn’t work. It’s a bad policy that often yields bad intelligence.
Posted by Melissa Cooley
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34 Comments
The use of sophistry, legalisms, obscure word meanings, and loopholes has been a defining characteristic of American politicians of all persuasions since Nixon. It’s one of the reasons for public distrust of politics and government. Language can never “nail down” the exact intent or meaning of any idea, so there is always room for “misunderstandings”. But most people make inferences about the perceived meaning of a statement and politicians should be forthright and honest enough to go with that inferred meaning rather than with obscure, yet technically correct, alternate meanings that allow them ‘wiggle room’.
Clinton claiming not to have had sex with Monica by defining sex as penetration was disingenuous.
Nixon, of course, and his statements denying knowledge of the Watergate break-in….
Congressman accepting junkets to Las Vegas, Palm Springs, Hawaii, Scotland or other exotic spots under the guise of an “investigation” or some other fanciful BS….
Government would be a lot better off if all involved generally followed a modified version of Horton the Elephant’s philosophy when they make public statements:
“I meant what I said, and I said what I meant…a government servant is honest 100%”
Condoleezza Rice’s denials of the use of torture by the United States in the face of hard evidence, seems unfathomable to most Americans.
This goes much deeper than just Condoleezza Rice. Her outright lies are only the tip of the iceberg. The Bush administration is froth with anti-American attitudes, behaviors, actions and proposed legislation.
During the Nixon administration, many surrounding the president thought his mind to be unstable. Today the situation of the Bush administration parallels those concerns. This situation goes well beyond the lack of truthfulness. Bush’s lack of intelligence and overall ignorance may be the result of a mental illness. That answers more questions than it asks.
The American People have been showing their disgust with George W. Bush and that may well have pushed him ever deeper into the waiting arms of the Israeli-Firsters which now surround him.
His inability to stand-up to Ariel Sharon and actually acquiesce to Sharon’s demands, thus worsening a critical situation in the Middle East is very telling. The “road map” plan clearly put the Israelis back behind the “green-line” making a settlement to that crisis foreseeable, now, by Sharon adding “facts on the ground” { a land grab } in the West Bank, a solution has become farfetched.
The Iraq fiasco wraps-up any doubt.
Bush and Rice appearing with Ariel Sharon at the AIPAC gala convention and planning session, pretty well wraps-up Bush’s loyalty, which is not to the United States. The lack of protection for the constitution, replaced by an outright contempt should awaken congress to impeach him.
As for impeachment? Bush has done it the old-fashioned way, he’s earned it.
Wouldn’t it be great if our politicians had to go through what the Canadian or British politicians have to go through? I’m not sure what it’s called but the Canadian Politicians have to go through a face to face period after every session where they get asked pointed questions, by the press, and must answer if they want a future.
No canned questions and answers, no picking the questioneers. We might get some real answers, or at least find out who can handle the pressure. As it is now, we baby our elected leaders and looked what they have turned into. And that is OUR fault.
The purpose of torture is never to arrive at the truth; it’s to produce answers that justify the existence of the torurers.
Walker
Consider putting them under oath. We need to stop their outrageous conduct and ability to hide from us.
Incude such questions as: Did you trade your vote on someone elses Bill to get a vote on a Bill of yours?
Your suggestion would solve all the corruption if fine tuned.
EDI have to agree with you except for one tiny problem. Under Oath only has meaning for those who believe in whatever or whoever they are swearing to. We would end up with athiest leaders or worse.
Codie,
That’s idiotic. Your implication is that those who don’t believe in your version of the deity or don’t believe at all can’t be trusted to swear an oath to tell the truth.
It’s true that courtroom oaths now generally contain the words “so help me God” but their inclusion doesn’t “unbind” a non-believer from the oath or its intent. This is another example where one can be a sophist and treat the oath as a literal thing when in actual fact the intent is what’s important.
It’s possible to have an equally rigorous moral and ethical system of behavior without the need to reference a deity. And we’ve amply seen that belief in a deity doesn’t guarantee moral or ethical behavior. In fact, Jesus himself said “swear no oaths”..let your word be your word without the need to bring God into it.
Codie
The purpose of putting them under oath is that if they do not tell the truth, they’ll be looking at jail times as perjury is a violation of law.
What Walker has suggested is being able to question members of congress. I was trying to enhance his suggestion.
And by the way, the “so help me God” is optional. It’s perfectly legal to affirm without reference to a deity, though you usually have to request it.
Brian, political sophistry existed long before Nixon–he just was particularly egregarious, and was stupid enough to tape his private conversations. The Reagan team (including Roger Ailes, who now runs Fox News) elevated it to an art form, and we’ve been suffering the results–no matter who’s been in power–ever since.
Rage,
Sure, it’s existed since we’ve existed as a species. However, there was a tremendous shift (IMHO) after Nixon’s accession in ‘68. Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Truman were perceived as being plain-spoken and truthful. In fact, most presidents in the 20th century up to Nixon enjoyed pretty good reputations for competence and honesty. Not so, except perhaps for Carter, AN (after Nixon).
Rage,Whose fault is it that we now have “political sophistry”, as you put it, elevated to an “art form?”
Doesn’t it boil down to us? After all, we are the ones who put them in office and allowed it to happen. Blaming it on the politicians is, to me, a cop-out.
Politicians don’t elect themselves, it is us, and this ridiculous two-party system tha has enabled these idiots to get away with the things they do.
Walker, Are you suggesting a one party system?
There are lies, damn lies, and then there are Bush officals.
I think we should just turn “Bush” into a new word. “Don’t BUSH me with that load of crap.” “Are you trying to BUSH me, man?” “That’s not true. Stop BUSHING around!” “No one’s going to buy that load of BUSH.”
But really you can’t blame torture for the Bush rush to war. They tortured ALL the evidence until they got the conclusion they wanted.
A few more–”Looks like you really BUSHED that up.” “Keep doing that and your name will be BUSH.”
Bush will be remembered as the “Pinocchio” of American Presidents.
Ed,”Walker, Are you suggesting a one party system?”
Only you could come to that assumption.
Assumption? You said it.
” and this ridiculous two-party system tha has enabled these idiots to get away with the things they do.”
Well, All Mighty Sage, tell us what you mean, if not what you said?
Torture degrades us all.
http://cgi.wn.com/?t=worldnews/onephoto.txt&action=display&article=40964411
One of the most underestimated, perhaps undermeasured, tragedies of our unnecessary rush to war in 2003 is its toxic effect on American civil discourse. Our body politic seems to be in grave danger, evidenced by current black trends in pop culture (e.g., Syriana) and even the black discourse to be read at this very blog.
The left: Liars!The right: Cowards!
That about sums up our current dysfunction. Unfortunately it’s not unlimited to Wichita, it’s nationwide.
Who knows how long — or what — it will take Americans to overcome this poison?
flike,To answer your question, as well as explain things to Ed (Lord knows; he does need that!): If the left are Liars and the right are cowards, than we need more parties from which to choose.
The current two party system won’t and can’t meet the needs of the population of this country. There are too many people out there with some awesome ideas about what should be done to right this wayward ship, but don’t, for obvious reasons, want to get involved in either party.
So what’s the alternative? Force the establishment to recognize the fact that there are other choices, and get their ideas out. Blogs have been a major influence on many political subjects, and they can only do more good.
Myself, I can’t abide by either parties form of cut-throat politics. I want new ideas. I want honesty back in politics. I want people who can lead by example. I want a party that will answer the real life needs of the people. That party used to be the democrats, but they are so tied up in slamming everything they don’t like that they have forgotten the fact that they used to be the party of ideas. They are just as bad as the republicans they hate so much. That’s why I lean more toward the Libertarian party. While I don’t believe in everything they stand for, they have a healthier understanding of what made this country great, and how to get back there.
Want to check out what’s out there? http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm
But the gist of this blog is Secretary of State Condoleezza Tatertots, and the torture this country “does not permit (wink), tolerate (wink) or condone (wink) torture under any circumstances.”
How do we stop this travesty of freedom? Vote.
Blowhard and flike
The divisiveness You seems so concerned about is really not as bad as you might suggest we believe. The vast majority of Americans agree that George W. Bush was not telling the truth about events justifying an attack on Iraq. They believe that he was lying. They don’t like that.
Most Americans are aware that this war was Israel’s war, but are cautious talking about saying that, for fear of being labeled “anti-Semitic.”
Not only has the “terrorism card” been shoved down their throats, but also the “anti-Semitic card” has been threatened as well.
John Bolton, our so-called ambassador to the United Nations, has been given orders to pass a resolution that any criticism of Israel is automatically anti-Semitic. { When Israel must stoop to such a measure, you just know they’re expecting some “heat” }.
Actually George W. Bush has been good for America, in that he has exposed what before could not be talked about.
So, not to worry too much about America. Seems as though you have more trouble than we do.
JM Walker, sorry, my post was unclear. I meant that the left calls the right “liars” while the right calls the left “cowards.”
It’s toxic because it reinforces the old battle lines from Vietnam (and back to the end of WWII and the beginning of the Cold War). I honestly think that Pres. Bush honestly sought to obliterate forever those lines; if I’m correct then the current state is so sad that it’s pretty darn hard to enjoy the irony.
I really do think that, after 9/11 and especially Afghanistan, Pres. Bush had a supreme opportunity to unite the US and indeed obliterate those old fault lines. Unfortunately, the Iraq war was rushed and the early occupation was botched (e.g., the CPA) and the opportunity was blown to hell.
I agree that the current state of left/right is dysfunctional.
Ed, I hope you’re correct in that I’m overhyping here. Again, I see our current leadership exacerbating rather than curing old political fault lines, to our aggregate detriment as a nation.
I also think that you slightly overestimate the percentage of Americans who believe Pres. Bush failed to tell the truth, since that’s an impeachable offense per se. If this percentage was truly vast, then I think we’d have an enormous push to begin impeachment proceedings in the House immediately. I certainly don’t see that.
To tie both your and JM’s comments together, maybe things’ll improve come November of next year.
Flike
As long as AIPAC can leverage who gets elected, there will be no impeachment.
They brag they have 2/3 of the House and 1/2 of the Senate.
And have the swing vote.
Israel says Bush is the best president that Israel has ever had. He gives whatever they want.
http://www.aipac.org/PC2006/
Flike
A good example of just how far things are off-kilter.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N08376894.htm
Nuts to the “Phony war on terrorism.”
We have a real war. To take our country back from Israel.
300 milion Americans being ruled by 5 million Israelis.
Flike, you can’t start impeachment proceedings without a majority vote. Since the republicans control the government, that’s not going to happen.As for “taterTots” (TaterTots?), she’s a liar. What do we expect? she’s part of the Bush administration. Doesn’t sound like anybody in the world believes her except for our republicans. What does that say about republicans?
Members of congress dare not come out against Rice or AIPAC will see to it that they will not be reelected. That’s how deeply involved Israel is involved in our government.
I’ll post the link showing first Ariel Sharon then Bush, then Rice, then Hillary.
Sold-out Americans all { except for Sharon }.
The link showing first Ariel Sharon, then Bush, then Rice, then Hillary.
Sold-out Americans all { except for Sharon }.
http://www.aipac.org/PC2006/
Condoleezza Rice is conducting Israeli propaganda at the United Nations, and lying through her teeth.
Syria has already repeated many, many, times that it intends to cooperate fully and has been cooperating in the investigation of the murder of ex-Prime Minster of Lebanon, but Rice is “acting as though Syria is not by saying: “This resolution by the United Nations is the “only” way to get Syria to cooperate.”
That is a lie. That is pure Israeli propaganda, and Rice is up to her neck in it. This is too much! Israel wants crippling economic sanctions agaist Syria to clear the way for an invasion of Lebanon and Syria.
Press: Video: U.N. passes Syria resolution
http://usatoday.com/news/world/2005-12-12-lebanon-blast_x.htm
The Egyptian who gave false testimony admitted it was false and said the only reason he gave that testimony was that he was being tortured and to make that torture stop. Rice conveniently forgot to mention that.
Condoleezza Rice conducting Israeli propaganda at the United Nations and lying though her teeth.
USA Today has been putting out, in my opinion, yellow journalism lately, judging by the wording on this piece on Syria and others.
I did consider them as being a reliable source, but not as of late.
This war is for my Daddy! I took the election so I cold go get Saddam. We just needed two things. 1) an excuse to go get him 2) a way to sell it to ya all!
911 gave us both! Cond gives me the best mouth service. Who cares if Iran is getting nukes for America or that other Korea? This is me and my daddy’s war – don’t get in the way!
Dubya
What are you talking about?
Bush’s dad told him not to do it. Is still telling him to get out. Sharon is busy linning-up new tasks for “our” Army.
Go here, then pull-up the cartoon. That tells it all.
http://www.arabnews.com/