Colleen Kollar-Kotelly (in photo), the presiding judge of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, is arranging a classified briefing for her and her fellow judges about the Bush administration’s eavesdropping program, The Washington Post reported. The judges are concerned both about the legality of the domestic spying and whether information gleaned from the eavesdropping was improperly used to gain authorized wiretaps from their court. “The questions are obvious,” U.S. District Judge Dee Benson of Utah told the Post. “What have you been doing, and how might it affect the reliability and credibility of the information we’re getting in our court?”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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80 Comments
My understanding is that the FISA court is well aware of what is going on. And knowing it for several years, but all of a sudden, once it is public, its now a case of political grandstanding?
I mean that one leftist Clinton appointee judge quit, now another is asking questions? I thought the FISA court in themselves cannot devulge any information to the public. All of a sudden it is about at public as it can be.
Oh well! National Security is compromised for a good media firestorm. Now comes the spin, propaganda, and book deals.
I guess the FISA court judges need to make the most out of their 15 minutes of fame to land a decent book deal, because after New Year’s Day rolls around, they’ll be old news and forgotten.
Good morning Joe!If the FISA court knew about the surveillance all along then it would have been so easy to do the right thing legally. Are you sure?Being a court, I would think they would demand the NSA go ahead and do the paperwork, even if it was just a cover-up for anything that might be questionable.
AIPAC twists congressional arms, and congress backs down in allowing the constitutional trashing patriot act to expire on December 31, 2005. Extension is for 1 month but enough time to sneak though a semi-permanent law. To add insult to injury, the powerful Jewish Lobby finagled yet another 600 million for their troubles, probably to pay-off members with money or threats against reelection { the threat against uncooperative congressional members being reelected is an effective and common tool to get whatever AIPAC wants }. The 100 people working just 2 blocks down the street from the Capitol at AIPAC, representing 2% of Americans, effectively controls congress by carefully working behind the scenes manipulating its members.
The “Patriot Act” needs that name because it is so downright disgustingly unpatriotic. Bush’s off hand remark that “the constitution is nothing more than a G-d piece of paper” affirms his contempt for the US Constitution and his feverish support for the patriot act and AIPAC where he is often the guest speaker.
A couple things really frighten me about this issue.
The first is the Bush administration really believes they have unlimited, unchecked powers to do whatever they deem necessary.
The 2nd is the lack of truth the media itself is putting out. On the Today Show, Pat Buchannan hypes that we can not wait 72 hours to get permission to wiretap. Katie Couric either didnt’ know the reality or didnt’ challenge his misstatement.
They have 72 AFTER the wire tapping begins to get a court order.
They’re all in on it.
okay, I remembered another statement made that makes frightens me.
The Times sat on this story for a year before they decided to print this story? Also, that the president should call them to the white house to talk them out of printing this story?
If this is true, than what else is being held?
Our freedom and future as a ‘free’ country seem to be at stake here.I sure hope everyone gets out to vote. Vote the way you want. I’ll vote for liberty.
The Republican Party is effectively gone. The evangelicals can stay, they’re the “nutty ones.” Moderates and conservatives need to move to the Democratic Party and before you democrats throw a hissy-fit remember we need to take our America back from the Neoconservatives. We cannot remain divided or we’ll be handing them America on a silver platter.
United we stand, divided we fall, it’s as simple as that.
Karl Rove is throwing America a bone. As though we were just a yapping dog who needs to be shut-up. America wants out of Iraq, so he makes it “look” as though we’re leaving. We’re not leaving, this it nothing more than a calculated ploy. As with the patriot act, the undermining of America’s value is steadily being eroded.
Terrorism is a meaningless term which has been sold to American to justify some very devious plans. PNAC is never talked about in the MSM but it still alive and well pulling our collective chains. The PNAC plan is underway, despite the fact that it will destroy America. It will inevitably lead to either the internal destruction of America or radio active oil fields, which send our economy to the dumber.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1223/dailyUpdate.html
I wonder if the FISA court screamed when Clinton did a warrantless search of Aldrich Ames’ home. Oh that’s right they probably didn’t know about it.
Funny, the Clinton Justice Dept. claimed the same authourity to do warrantless searches as the Bush justice department does. The media gave Clinton a pass though.
Joe W.,The “leftist” judge you speak of may have been appointed to the District Court by Clinton, but he was picked for the FISA court by that noted left-wing lunatic William Rhenquist.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179344,00.html
And for your information, the FISA chief just can’t up and decide for the entire court on whether to question the president. I would wager they’ll all concerned, as it could affect the legality of some their decisions.
Your “understanding” is also wrong: The chief judge received a minimalist briefing of some kind, but she was forbidden even to tell the other judges!
Just read an interesting little piece about how the FBI didn’t push for a warrant to search Zacharias Mussoui’s laptop computer (4 weeks before 9/11) because a well regarded FBI supervisor had been disciplined for including improper info on warrant requests going to the FISA court.
It’s NEWSMAX but all the info is from old reports in the New York Times.http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/23/104633.shtml
I see the adminstration is sticking to its lame story, i.e., the Use of Force Resolution authorized it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/23/politics/23court.html
Problem is, the Use of Force resolution applied to, well, force. Nothing about wiretaps, which had to be specifically authorized.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/terroristattack/joint-resolution_9-14.html
Moreever, the Resolution is specifically authorized AND limited by the terms of the War Powers Resolution of 1973.
The War Powers Resolution of 1973 was passed to limit Executive authority to make war without Congressional approval (something that used to go without saying!). It certainly didn’t authorize spying on Americans:
http://www.policyalmanac.org/world/archive/war_powers_resolution.shtml
The president has the authority to conduct espionage on our enemies. The eavesdropping in question was conducted on foreign phones. When the foreign numbers called a domestic number we listened in.
The logistics involved do not lend themselves to warrants, nor does the law require it.
We have enemies both foreign and domestic. Foreign and domestic. Ring a bell? The politicians that oppose our president and make this an issue are aiding the enemy.
This particular tempest in a teapot will go away amid the laughter of our enemies.
You know, this is all Bill Clinton’s fault. Now shut up and pass the peas.
I don’t need no stinking Constitution! It is only a worthless piece of paper anyway. ME AND PNAC RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, Heckler, it takes some pretty serious misconduct for a court to disclipine a lawyer. And if the agency was timid in obtaining that warrant, that’s hardly the court’s fault.
Rage
I just like to point out the hypocrisy of the MSM in how they deal with Bush versus Clinton.I don’t point out the Clinton stuff to excuse the Bush stuff, I point it out to show how full of shit the media is sometimes.
I also like to point out possible ramifications of bad decisions brought on by beaurocratic bullying and interagency fighting.Sometimes the results can be devastating.
esod–
As a frequent post-er who discusses terrorism, I thought I’d let you know that the massive NSA computers that are constantly monitoring the www have picked up your ISP, tracked down your name, address, social security number, e-mail address, credit card numbers, place of employment, telephone numbers, and bank accounts.
While they were at it, they ran that information past the IRS (to see if you had any outstanding tax balances), local law enforcement (warrants), voting records, arrest history, credit records, driving history, etc. etc.
And since the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, they also ran all known family members through the same scrutiny.
Since you’re a true American patriot, you have nothing to worry about, right, esod?
And you also have the unshakable faith that the George W. Bush government NEVER MAKES A MISTAKE.
Merry Christmas.
And who determines who the enemies are? You sound like an enemy to me, so off to Gitmo you go. Then on to a special place known only to non-enemies and who gets to say who non-enemies might be? Well, Me, of course. And the beat goes on.
And that children is why we have checks and balances.
“I also like to point out possible ramifications of bad decisions brought on by beaurocratic bullying and interagency fighting.Sometimes the results can be devastating.”
Can’t argue with that.
Heckler,”In 1972 the Supreme Court required the president to obtain warrants to eavesdrop on domestic groups but specifically declined to apply this requirement to snooping on foreign agents. Four appeals courts have since upheld presidential authority for such warrantless searches. Not surprisingly, the executive branch has agreed.” (Charles Krauthammer)
I would say Aldrich Ames qualifies as a foriegn agent, wouldn’t you?
Ed
Frequently the enemy defines himself for you, by blowing up your ships or flying airplanes into your buildings.
XXX,
Well done, but you’re wasting your breath.
Rush has laid out the talking points and Heckler, Outlander, esod, Joe W. et al. are sticking with them.
Don’t confuse them with the facts . . .
Charles Krauthammer is the enemy.
Failed to mention: Foreign agents had to be Foreign agents.
Does that include dropping 1000 lb bombs on sleeping children?
I agree, lets wire tap the guys who flew the planes into those towers.
Dear Galahad,
Merry Christmas to you also! And may you and yours have a very prosperous New Year!
PS, I’m at the Public Library, I can’t be traced.
I like “targeted assignations” of “suspected” militants or their mothers and children. Nice hobby for a BTK’r. Should I shoot my neighbor, he thinking about buying a fast car and might run-over somebody?
Ed, wire tap Saudis?Oh no you didn’t!!!!
Or he might want to kill me for bulldozing his grandfather’s house with him in it.
If he did kill me, he’d be a terrorist.
esod that must be why they want the library record search in the patriot act.
Me? I’m just a bulldozer guy having a little fun. He’s the terrorist.
I think he’s been reading-up on how to drive a bulldozer, but you gotta catch the kids sleeping because they run too fast.
Galahad, you’re probably right. The following is probably a waste of time, too.
“The Justice Department acknowledged yesterday, in a letter to Congress, that the president’s October 2001 eavesdropping order did not comply with “the ‘procedures’ of” the law that has regulated domestic espionage since 1978. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, established a secret intelligence court and made it a criminal offense to conduct electronic surveillance without a warrant from that court, “except as authorized by statute.”
Since BushCo now admits they broke the law, I guess their defense becomes “screw you”.
And now the surveillance scandal dovetails with the Alito nomination:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aS7068ei.Z3c&refer=top_world_news
It’s going to be an interesting year.
I don’t think there’s a single American who has more contempt for The People of The United States than George W. Bush.
Yes XXX, that’s basically their defense along with the ‘you’ll be dead unless we break the law’ defense. And let us not forget the evil media, democratic terrorist supporters, etc.
Also from Cheney, basically saying Hey-you don’t like that crap, well we’ll just expand the president’s (Cheney’s) powers EVEN More!!!TAKE THAT YOU SUBVERSIVE LIBS!!!
Ed, I agree with you that the Democratic party should welcome principled conservatives within its ranks. I’m reminded that crusty old conservative Republican James Sensenbrenner used his position to force reconsideration of the Patriot Act within 5 weeks (Oh, my, it’s going to be an interesting January!).
The problem is, the Democratic Leadership Council is controlling the terms, and thus defining the strategy. They’re more interested in power for power’s sake. As the Republican Party has tacked right , The DLC keeps moving the friggin’ goalposts, and wants to force progressives out of the party.
Not I’m particularly qualified to speak for Democrats.
Bush…..I think it’s a twisted religious thing, where he thinks the American People are all bad and Israelis are all good and God has chosen him to destroy America and help Israel to rule the world.
He’s let that slip from time to time, bit by bit.
Rage, Together we could beat AIPAC’s grip on the White House and congress, have them declared an agent of a foreign government.
Elected Reps could then debate issues which make the economy strong and help the weak and protect the environment without fear of an unAmerican swing vote.
It’s a thought, Ed. Howard Dean has already drawn the ire of the DLC, but I don’t know if he has the cojones to challenge AIPAC.
Which kinda proves the points you’ve been making, to a degree.
Rage, I think when Bush was flying over the Katrina victims, looking at them out the window of AF 1 he was frozen in time thinking God was helping him destroy America, whereas anyone else would have been on the phone bringing help. One call from him would have saved those dying people. He didn’t make that call.
Rage, I don’t think Dean could carry the day. He seems nuts to me.
Well, the scariest possibility in that regard is that he believes we’re in the “end times,” and thus it’s all going to end soon anyway, so who cares?
For my part, I think he’s just a venal, amoral opportunist, just like daddy, but he’s willing to go far further than Bush Sr. ever would.
And let’s not forget about Cheney.
If Ed thinks he’s nuts, well I’m not sure….either he’s REALLLLY nuts or maybe crazy like fox!
Dean’s not nuts, he’s just out of his league. He ran for president as a message candidate, and was shocked when he hit the top of the polls.
Not that I’m particularly enamoured of him. But right now, he’s the only game in town.
Venal? Cool, I’ll have to remember that word. And just when I thought I had a pretty good vocabulary.I was trying to remember how many points a V gets in Scrabble.
Hehehe!
I’ve never made so many BS comments in one day (be nice ED!).Can’t tell things are a little slow right before a week long shutdown at work, can you?What was the subject, oh yeah, FISA.
Tracy, I always stand ready to change my mind if facts warrant.
The last thing I’ll ever do is beat a dead horse.
I saw John Connally {spl} change from being a democrat to a republican. He went on to become Governor of Texas then Sec. of Treasury.
I’m hoping a good standing rebublican will emerge as a good old school democrat and carry the day. Someone who could carry the Teamsters, and the UAW, and the “yellow dogs” as well.
I’m so sick of the “lifers” I could scream.
Tracy, we’re on subject which is what to do about a out-of-control crazy president who keeps breaking the law.
Oh okay, when I said be nice I was referring to my statement that I had never made so many BS posts.Right now I’m trying to read about the AUMF and Hamdi vs. Rumsfeld.
In don’t know what that is but if it’s porn I’ll make you go blind.
Authorized Use of Military Force.AUMF.
Heckler,
That talking point about Clinton allowing a warrantless search in the case of Alrich Ames is a fabrication. It’s a lie. Here’s some debunking, from James Bamford among others.
http://mahablog.com/
As for Joe Williams, I believe his initial post on this topic questioning the motives of the FISA judges in this case proves it beyond the shadow of a doubt: he’s the dumbest person to post here on a regular basis. It seems never to have occured to him that his world view requires Bush to be utterly without blame while everyone else is utterly compromised and fallen.
Joe Williams, Bush isn’t Jesus. I know it’s hard, but trust me on this one.
CF, I haven’t been around here very long, but. . . dumber than esod? Or codie?
Rage you have a point there.Please concede, CF. Please?
Rage and TRACY,
I realize this is a controversial claim. But consider: esod is merely your garden variety, fascist provocateur, bent on throwing poop at whatever wall is closest. I don’t think he actually believes a lot of what he writes; he just gets a rise out of antagonizing folks. codie is another fascist shill, whose predictable imputation of the patriotism/masculinity of others is also emblematic of right-wing trolldom generally.
But with Joe Williams, that loveable, ingenuous little imp, there’s no such calculation and design behind his posts. When he says Bush seems like a regular guy who’d be great to have a beer with, it’s pretty clear he actually believes this. He doesn’t play the game of defending the indefensible, knowing it’s indefensible, but defending it anyway, in the manner of shills like esod and codie. Rather, he touchingly, naively, BELIEVES the indefensible, and attacks those who call it out as indefensible.
Admittedly, this may seen like a tortured argument. But I’ve been watching the tenor and content of the various posts around here for some time, so I think I’m on pretty firm ground.
CF you are completely right in your analysis. I rescind my request.However, who would you actually drink a beer with if you had to choose. For me, I’ll drink with the average Joe. I think he’s a good person, even if naive and transparent in some of his reasoning. I agree, the other two may just enjoy flaming people out of here. Joe knows what he believes and stands for and is honest and generally polite about it. My hat’s off to Joe, even if I can’t agree with him on issues!
TRACY,
Capiche, and I do feel bad for calling Joe Williams dumb, even if his post upthread fully warranted doing so. To his credit, Joe Williams wrote a background / position piece on the Boathouse that was arguably the best thing I’ve read on this blog.
If I still drank beer, Joe would be the one with whom to share a cold one. I suppose that makes him the Forest Gump of the WeBlog.
When the regulars here begin to recognize flamers for what they are and do, they slowly quit responding and the flamers are faced with the choice of changing their disingenous argumentative posting or moving on. I’ve seen some become more moderate and congenial over time. Very few commentators will continue writing when nobody responds to their posts.
Eavesdropping on humiliation without a wiretap.
The “war on terrorism”
Israelis are backward lot, reminiscent of the 50s in America against Blacks. They never miss a chance to humiliate anyone, even their own protesting an injustice financed by American money. This should sicken a person of conscience, but not the Israelis.http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/661809.html
Hmmm. . .I’ll keep that in mind, TRACY.
I have to confess: I’ve enjoyed making fun of codie. His posts were so absurd, it was too easy, albeit not very nice.
Tracy, This web Site is read all over the world, not by just this little group.
The Dallas Morning News picked-up one of my posts and printed it.
I always read the DMN to find what the enemy { neocons } is most interested.
I learn more from what they ignore than print. That’s what they fear most.
Eavesdropping on humiliation without a wiretap.
Unbelievable? It should be.
“Defense officials: IDF should target civilian areas in Gaza”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/661722.html
As the saying goes Ed don’t look for what is there, look for what isn’t there.
As for the FISA court their purpose is to grant wiretapping warrents quickly. I read that they average only a few hours and some have been granted in minutes. The burdon of proof is much more lax than a regular court and since it was created in the late 70’s (~78 I think) they have reviewed over 10,000 requests and denied only 4. There is no need for the illegal wiretaps. Once again this administration believes they are above the law.
The Bush administration doesn’t want anybody to know who they’re wiretapping. The names of their victims would need to be on the warrants. The Bush sleaze-bags want to keep the dirty business from the public they are supposed to be serving. There learning from their Israeli counterparts the skills of being underhanded.
That was quite perceptive, Galajad. I’m really glad you posted, as it gave me something to think about.
That was quite perceptive, s. I’m really glad you posted, as it gave me something to think about.
Gal, I suggest adding a random character in a random spot of each sig. It’ll drive him nuts.
eosd said:”PS, I’m at the Public Library, I can’t be traced.”
I guess you missed that part of the Patriot act. BTW the FBI said you have an interesting choice of reading matteral too.
Merry Christmas.
Funny Ed, all this time I thought they were picking up tricks from the Soviet era KGB. These are the tactics I would expect from them.
Merry Christmas all you regulars.Oh, and Ed’s diaspora of readers.Sorry, just had to attempt humor there Ed.
Right, Rage–That’s that what I thought too.
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