Senators ensured Wednesday that the national minimum wage will remain at $5.15 — where it has been stuck since 1997.
This Associated Press article summed up the opposing arguments:
“Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., said it was ‘absolutely unconscionable’ that in the same period that Congress has denied a minimum wage increase, lawmakers have voted themselves seven pay raises worth $28,000.
“But Republican opponents, echoing the arguments of business groups, said higher minimum wages can work against the poor if they force small businesses to cut payrolls or go out of business.”
What do you think?
Posted by Melissa Cooley
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42 Comments
If an employer takes your time, he owes you a reasonable living. It’s as simple as that! Minimum wage is not, and never has been a living; it merely keeps you from dying!
Food for thought, the minimum wage was inacted in 1938. At the rate of a quarter an hour, in order to have the same buying power as that 1938 quarter. The minimum wage today would have to be 10.00 dollars an hour.
Sure seems to me tax policy could be adjusted so that corporations who grant a decent wage to their lower rung employees would not be hurt in doing so. Oh, and in this feedback loop, isn’t it the money earned by these employeees that is used to purchase the goods and services supplied by the employers? Are we going to end up selling goods and services abroad to others who can afford them while we all become the third world laborers of the global economy?
Henry Ford learned an important lesson:
” If you pay a man a living wage, he returns as a customer.”
Everybody wins when those who work as paid as mich as possible.
All the “fears” about what will happen when people are paid properly for their work become so much nonsense.
A strong economy needs and thrives on buying power, and buying power is people spending their money.
They can’t spend it, if they don’t have it.
Pay them just pay for just work. Give them reasonable health benefits. Don’t treat them as cattle…they aint.
Walker
I see we’re on the same side, good to have you back.
$5.15 a hour Is obscene and based on a 40 hour week totals $206. You can’t “live” on that.
Crime pays better and that’s why our jails are full. It cost about 30.000 a year to keep a prisoner, so we’re going to pay one way or the other, either keeping a jail running or insurance rates against theft, or replacing stolen goods.
The relationship between UAW and the Auto industry is the best I’ve seen, so a balance between labor and management can be achieved. That’s a win, win situation.
Low wages also attack illegal immigrants and, “their doing jobs Americans won’t do” is so much crap. Americans can’t live on a substandard wage, whereas 20 illegals can jam themselves into one room and send the money back home. That money goes out of our circulation and we, lose, lose, lose, lose.
As usual Congress and Bush need to get off their ass and change “minimum” to a least $12. Forty hours then pays 480, { 24,960 yearly } and keep the tax off that money { put government workers into fast-food where they can work for a living }.
illegal Immigration will halt if we start keeping employers who hire them in jail { hire one you go straight to jail, no bail, just jail }.
If Bush can keep his ass out of the Middle East, cut-off “foriegn aid” stop shipments of military hardware, and start paying attention to this country, maybe Americans can get to work.
The maximum unemployment pays the equivilant of $9 and hour. Why? Because that is referred to as the minimum living wage at this time.I don’t think McDonalds will charge that much more for a happy meal if they paid their people $4 and hour more. They could also pass a graduated minimum wage scale so 15 year old make only $5 or $6 an hour and they would get the maximum $9 at 17. Fast food places could then still pay a lesser fee to new workers. BUT they would have to also employ a certain percentage of adult wage workers.
Time for a little insensitivity here.
If you are an adult of sound body and mind and are working for minimum wage you are an idiot. If you cant find a job paying 9 bucks an hour you are just not looking very hard, learn a trade for Christ sake. Can you drive? Trucking companies cant find people to drive for starting pay of 30,000 a year plus insurance.
Check around people, McDonalds cant even find teenagers to work for minimum wage. If you are an adult and cant find a job paying 9
Agree with Heckler
Independant cleaning ladies (and guys)are really in demand and they make about $20 an hour.With all the professional career women today, most of them have more work than they can handle.If I ever decide to quit my day job, that’s what I’d do!
Damoon,That $20hr. sounds pretty good, but if you’re self-employed, that’s gross pay, not net. By the time you’ve paid your expenses, what you’ve got left is a whole lot closer to minimum wage than you’d want it to be!
Heck,Even idiots and disabled people deserve to live.
Damoon, got any names of independent cleaning ladies for me? (seriously)
It is hard to believe that $5.15 is still the minimum wage. Quit fooling around and bring it up.
Ed,Part of live is disagreement, so being on the same page is going to happen once and awhile:-))Every time the minimum wage has been increased, there have been howls of rage from the private industry…”lay-offs…closing plants…yadda yadda…Guess what? It ain’t happened. The problem now a days is plants closing and going overseas. Raising the minimum wage too high could be the straw, unless the government gives breaks to businesses that give the hikes and stay in the states. The government will get the money back in terms of increased tax revenue. quid pro quo.
JM, nobody’s asking to live easy on a big fat minimum wage, and the conservative powers won’t let business owners be held hostage either, but even the dogs deserve an ocassional scrap from the master’s table.
What ever happened to earning a living? If you don’t like the wage you’re making then change jobs. This is the United States people, nobody forces you to accept your ’station’ in life.
Remember, the minimum wage is a starting point, not a destination.
PM,Some of us have our choices made for us by where we live.And for too many people, in too many dead-end jobs, minimum wage is all they’ll ever get.And, when the economy tanks, as it regularly does, many people who had good jobs and bought houses and cars and had children are sometimes forced to take minimum wage jobs until the economy improves.It would be nice if everything was as simple as you see it, but sorry, it’s not! Anyone who employs someone and takes their time owes them a reasonable living. If they can’t do that, they have no business being in business!
I guess earning a living stepped out with being compensated fairly for one’s labors.
When CEOs who have driven their companies and the company share price into the ground are ‘rewarded” for superior performance while it is the working stiff who takes it on the chin, I find it laughable that anyone can say that salaries are set fairly, or even by market forces.
Every time there has been an increase in the minimum wage, companies have cried the same thing, “We can’t afford it and will have to shut the doors.” The only problem with this argument is that most companies actually see a rise in sales and profits when minimum wages actually grow. Minimum wage isn’t living, but it shouldn’t be death either.
Remember we have to keep up with the cost of living…. not to mention gas prices are outrageous as well as other things. Even though 5.15 is not a destination but a starting point we are starting out awfully low especially in todays economy. This was mentioned before but they’re people out there with good paying jobs that have been laid off and now they have to work the minimum wage jobs because those are the only ones available. You do the math … minimum wage is way too low
Listen to reality folks. The way you discuss workers in the US you would think slavery was still legal.
People make choices, forcing others to ‘help’ them through the police power of government is wrong. A fair wage for fair work is a basic feature of a free market economy. You only have limited options if you have limited skills or unreasonable demands, like I won’t move to make a better living.
Easy answers. If you want a lifestyle costing $20/hr then get some schooling or experience so you are worth $20. DO NOT get married or have children till you get there.As an employer, I can only afford $20 for a employee unless he can make me over $30. (SS, taxes, etc. you know) A few bucks for me too or why bother.
PM,Some people spend their lives perfecting a skill, being the best in their field. Then, at the age of 58, find their job exported to China, thanks to some new technology.Nobody’s going to invest in training an employee for something new and even remotely comparable that’s going to retire in less than 7 years. I’ve seen that happen way too often!Suddenly, they have no income, before long, what they had saved for retirement is used up, and not even pensions are safe anymore! Yeah, that’s the breaks. Too bad they didn’t choose something more secure 35 years ago!Hope you don’t end up in that fix. Even with multiple job skills, who’s to say they all won’t be obsolete when you need them. If that happens, I’ll look you up at your new unskilled job, and see what you think of minimum wage then. How many paychecks are you away from homelessness?
I remember back in the “Stone ages” of the late seventies. The company gave cost of living raises based on the announce COL. When was the last time that happened?
When the economy is good the arguement that mainly only teenagers are the ones working for minimum wage is somewhat true.
Others have brought out the points I would make. No need for me to address them again. Other then we do see the world from our personal point of view. If we have a good paying job, then we think everyone must be in the same shape. And there are no need for anyone to have to work for lower wages.
One of two things must occur, raise the minimum wage to a living wage. Or lower the cost of living to meet the wages. Henry was right, in order for companies like Boeing to thrive. The employees must make money, they buy other companies products and in turn those companies make money and pass that on. Air travel increases which means the airlines need more planes.
The problem we have is that without a general living wage andCompanies taking jobs overseas. Their consumer base is weaken and in the end the company losses money.
Wal-mart has increased their profit by importing ninty precent of their products. But by doing so they have caused American companies to cut back or close all togather. There by cuting their consumer base and forcing the amount of money that the consumer has to be less.
No matter how good the buy is, if you do not have the money you do not buy.
Ned and NoJoCo, I pay my cleaning lady $20 per hour, and I provide all her supplies. All she pays for is the gas to get to my house. That’s not a bad wage for someone with no education or career skills. She even brings her kids with her when they’re not in school, so she doesn’t have to pay for child care. If you are serious about wanting some names, email me directly, but you can’t have mine, she’s taken!!
Damoon,How many hours a week does she work for you?
There’s something I think we’re missing in this thread. Proud, you say “get an education”. What if that’s not an option? Not everybody is as intelligent as you are. If your IQ is 120 or higher, by all means, there’s no excuse for not getting off your ass and making something of yourself.
But what if your IQ is 110 or lower? There are a lot of people out there who don’t have the ability to get an advanced education. Not everybody is smart. Doesn’t mean they can’t function, just that they’re not ever going to be executive material. Low IQ doesn’t have any bearing on how hard a person works or how dedicated a worker they are. I don’t see why we shouldn’t have a decent minimum wage.
If this nation is to be saved, two things must happen. First, all and I mean ALL illegals must be deported. They are not citizens, and they are causing great disruption to the fiscal “equation” Second, tarriffs must be imposed on ALL imported goods. The attitude here should be “If it aint made here it aint sold here”
There has been a fundamental problemin this nation for about 20 years now. It started when Reagan was allowed to fire the PATCO union air traffic controllers. It was perpetuated in the media in movies like “Wall Street” where a captain of industry (corporate raider) said “Greed is Good” It has continued since. Personell have become “human resources”
Oh by the way Joe C? Could you tell me the name of the company you own? I would not like to do any trade with you.
And that is how it has to begin. To borrow a phrase, just say no.
Fun ways to fight back:
Go to Wal mart or McDonalds or any other corporate slaver. Demandto speak to management to take your order or help you. Explain that the working person you met was doing a very good job , but that you want to deal with someone actually getting paid enough to care! If they dismiss you then take your business elsewhere. Trust me on this it is LOADS of fun!
Avoid self check out lanes. These things take away jobs. Even better? Get a cart with lots of stuff, and when there isn’t a human being to check you out in under 5 minutes, get angry and leave.
A decent living minimum wage is not a lot to ask in the wealthiest nation on the planet. It’salso not a lot to demand when you consider that the “American DREAM” is dead.Can you open a store? Wal Mart wil crush youPick a field, the corps got it covered. So let’s make ‘em pay fair.
Little Statistic to consider: Over the last 30 years worker compensation (minimum wage or otherwise) has declined. Management compensation has increased 5000%.
Oh and by the way? “educating yourself” another lie. Go to school and learn about computers. Get a computer. When you call for help the guy on the other end of the line will have an Indian accent.
Maybe the right wing poster who talked about building more prisons had it right in his own perverse way. Cause for me? I will not work for peanuts and I will not be mistreated. I’ve had enough of that. You greed heads do the math on that.
Though not at all the best theory around, the “iron law of wages” captures the essential problem. The theory maintains that wages cluster around the bare subsistence level of workers. A wage rate much above the subsistence level causes an increase in the number of workers; competition will then lead to a depression of wages back toward the cost of subsistence. Wages that are below subsistence reduce the size of the working population; in that case competition will raise wages, but only up to the subsistence level again.
Early Industrial Revolution England, with no labor laws, kind of proved out the important aspects of the theory.
The minimum wage is an attempt to correct this immoral perversion of the economic system. People should be paid a “moral” wage that allows them to enjoy “frugal comfort”, as the Catholic Church has put it..and by frugal comfort they don’t mean subsistence.
So the arguements against my position are “We have to protect the stupid people” and “What about people with useless skills”.
I you stop protecting the “stupid people” and let them feel the pain of their poor decisions they might actually become smarter.
The worker with useless skills is like the radio technician driving through the mountains. He is entirely focused on the radio getting the EQ set just right and reading Radio Tuning Monthly. It was all going smoothly until he drove off a cliff. He is responsible for his own death just as much as workers focused on dead-end careers are responsible for thier own predicament.
JR
I guess you want about 60 percent of us aircraft workers to lose our jobs. That’s real bright. Did it ever occur to your brilliant socialist mind that if we embargo imports that foreign countries will embargo our goods? AT LEAST 60 percent of the jets built in Wichita go to foreign buyers, foreign buyers who can choose from at least 3 good foreign buisness jet builders.
You want to put a bunch more farmers and ranchers out of business as well? Stop imports and watch about 40 percent of the remaining farmers and ranchers disapear because foreign countries wont buy American food products.
Tell me just what JR’s living wage would be for someone living in Wichita Kansas. Put a dollar value on it.
Your genius would crush our economy. But then socialists ARE all about enforced mediocrity.
I believe the argument is more along the lines that society provided you the means to succeed, so you owe to society some effort to repay. For example, people of means often complain about paying taxes. They claim they made it on their own and it’s not right that their hard earned money should be just sucked up by the government. Well…
There’s a whole other view to this. The country provided you with the educational system, potentially the educations and SBA loans to get started, the infrastructure to get your goods to market, etc. So, you really didn’t “make it on your own”; you had a lot of help along the way. All the government is asking is that you recognize the obligation and do something to repay the generosity to help future generations..pay it back or pay it forward, however you want to look at it.
No matter how many times people on here say things like “you’re free to seek other employment if you’re unhappy”, they miss the point. Not all of us were born or put into the position to succeed, either because of intelligence, poverty, illness, plant closings, divorce, whatever. We see Mr. Corkins appointed to a job for $140K/annum with no skill (but connections) while we watch hard working union men laid off as industries leave town. It should be clear that hard work and prowess at your job are no guarantees of security or success. We also watch the completely unethical and immoral behavior of senior executives pillaging their companies and being rewarded in the millions for doing it.
So, you have been successful. We all salute you. But don’t for a minute think you got there alone. Think of that one teacher who inspired you, or that one research paper that gave you the idea for your business, or that loan or tax break you received. Those were yours because we all chipped in to give them to you. Seems to me asking for “frugal comfort” for those among us least able to work the system is fair recompense.
Brian
Put a dollar value on ‘Brians Living Wage’ for someone living in Wichita Kansas. I’m just curious.
Heckler,
This would be a concensus issue for legislators, wouldn’t it? People don’t just suffer one type of poverty..there’s economic poverty of course, but couple with that is cultural poverty…denial of the ability to participate in society because of one economic condition..to be unable to go to a lecture by George Will or Eleanor Clift because you don’t have the admission price, to be unable to get hold of a book, even a used copy, if the library doesn’t have it, to be left behind in the information revolution because you can’t afford a computer or internet access.
What is the wage? It isn’t 0 and it isn’t $1MM/annum. But it isn’t $200/week for a family or even for an individual.
Ultimately, we all succeed when we help others to succeed. If that poor slob gets some help, maybe he comes up with a great idea that employs more people. At least he becomes a paying member of society.
Brian
“Teach a man to fish..” I don’t have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is a bunch of people who have never tried to run a business telling businesses what they have to pay someone.It’s just another step up the ladder of Fascism.
JRMy business cannot pay the $20 in my example. The employees get closer to $10 but I get even less so I work another job. We all get by. I guarantee that if all local businesses had to pay $20, people like you wouldn’t do business with any of us. $20 burgers and $40 steaks would have you doing all your own cooking IF you could afford to enter Dillions.
Heckler,
Yeah I hear ya. I think it’s absolutely a moral stand for a CEO to be paid 500 times the wage of the lowest paid worker when the president is paid only aboy 20 times that ratio.
As I said, what you make isn’t due only to you. It’s due to every worker in the company.
Please don’t take this as a comment on your particular situation. I know nothing about it. But I have to love all the moaning and groaning about the country going to hell in a handbasket as far as the “moral majority” is concerned andthen see them go to church, come home and kick the dog over the hedge, and on Monday deny the least favored among us even the chance at a decent life.
Brian
Don’t take this as a blanket defense of all CEO’s. This is something I like to have people think about.
Let’s take the CEO of XYZ airplane company. The average worker has to screw up pretty bad to cost the company the equivalent of his years pay. A good/bad decision by the average worker might cost/profit the company by a couple thousand dollars. The CEO on the other may make a good/bad decision that cost/profit the company tens of millions of dollars and add or subtract hundreds or thousands of jobs. He has to answer to the stockholders, the worker has to answer to his immediate supervisor.
Heckler,
yes, that is an argument. By said argument the president and every other chief of state should be making far more than the highest paid executive anywhere in the world. He doesn’t.
I’ll give you a counterexample..a true one. A scientist in a company invents an amplification scheme for DNA called the polymerase chain reaction. It turns out to be worth literally billions to the company…he ends up with a few thousand bucks for the patent and a boot out the door a few years later. Hmmm..
Heck,A figure for the local minimum wage? How ’bout the least a state legislator can get by on? And then pay them that!
Heck,To cost a company many times his yearly wage, all a low-level supervisor has to do is slap a few fannies and tell his female workers they’ll be fired if they don’t put out! So that argument bites the dust.
Jed, my cleaning lady is as busy as she wants to be, I’m certainly not her only client. She’s not complaining about the money she’s making, either. I give her credit for being ambitious and working hard, plus she is a total godsend to me.On another note, I agree that some people don’t have the cognitive ability for higher education or even to manage money effectively. They should have the opportunity to make enough money to live on, even if that means raising minimum wage. The problem though is that when the minimum wage goes up, so does the cost of living, it’s a vicious cycle. I think the real problem is that there are too many corporations sticking it to the American people because they can. Just one example is the pharmacutical companies, they spend billions of dollars on advertising which drives up the costs and out of the budgets of many people, but yet they’re making huge profits. In Japan, it’s against the law to advertise prescription drugs or give perks to doctors so they’ll prescribe the latest meds.In this country, we’re being raped by corporate greed, with the blessing of the government. That has to have an impact on the cost of living.