Troy Newman, president of Operation Rescue, wrote a commentary in today’s Eagle responding to a column by Eagle editorial writer Randy Scholfield that criticized pro-life protesters who use photos of aborted fetuses. Newman argued that, as with some horrific news photos that helped expose injustices, “the images of aborted babies are educating the public about an issue in a way that melts away the euphemistic terminology on both sides.” He wrote: “Volumes of opinion articles and all the debate over a woman’s right to choose, or whether it is her body, become simply rhetoric when faced with just one image of the brutality of abortion.”
What do you think? And what about displaying these graphic photos where children are likely to see them, such as on the pro-life “Truth Truck”?
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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115 Comments
It is not about truth, it is about obcenity. Time and again I have pointed out that it is redicules to judge a nude body as ofensive and a aborted fetus as not. The abortion protesters violated the obcenity laws. But because they are making a political statement they are not arrested. Yet both are found offensive to the general public. Like my dad told me, “Your rights end and everyone else begin at the tip of your nose. They should have been arrested for displaying offensive materal.
I agree R.D. Time and again I listen to Carlos Mayan talk about obscenity being the human body.If a naked picture of a woman/man is obscene than where do these photos fit in to acceptabity.When the adult book stores are closed I want to see the same happening to churches who use obscene props.
To assume that all of those kids, by seeing those pictures, will feel sorry for aborted babies is incorrect. Showing those pictures won’t necessarily appeal to the high school kids to say “that poor baby”; to many of them it is just a freakishly gross picture. In many cases it will just desensitize the kids to those images. These kids play gory video games and watch horror movies. They are already desensitized.
The silliest fact is that both of those high schools have a day care for the students who have kids. If a girl becomes pregnant, she can have her child and complete her education.
Does right to life mean the same as a right to live well? No. Maybe people will take the protesters more seriously when they are also fighting for the rights of children to be cared for, feed, clothed, housed and loved. I wonder how many foster children all of those protester have living with them right now? How many have adopted a black or latino child…not a baby, but a kid that is older than 5?
This issue is much bigger than cute little babies.
Yes, the pictures are offensive, and I wish the did not have to be shown. However, if the act shown publicly is so offensive why has the act not been stopped. What do we want to stop, the pictures, how stange is that. The pictures should offend, and hopefully to the point that we stop taking innocent lives.
Maybe this is how Carlow Mayans can stop pornography – he could show it on a large screen on the side of City Hall!!!
Please Note the sarcasm (it is truly a sad day when one has to include such provisos).
Why don’t these same “Wonderful Christians” who value “life” so much also show the blown-off arms and legs and heads of American soldiers and their burned and their mangled dead bodies?
If these so-called “pro-life” hypocrites truly value “life” why not show all of the death that they support? And lust for more?
Why are they not demanding that soldiers be brought home, so they can stay alive? Pro-life is pro-life, right?
Something about the truth about themselves that they’d rather hide?
Or is it really all about sex?
I agree wth the message, but not with the means of delivery. You do NOT make friends by offending them. My son was very offended by their tactics. However, those pictures would make great murals on the walls INSIDE Tiller’s clinic!
Thank you, janabanana, for that commentary. Sad but true.
The truth offends.
Let’s get real. As someone has said elsewhere, just turn on the t.v. If 18-20 out of 25 First Graders in Wichita have cable t.v. IN THEIR BEDROOMS, they see a lot worse than a photo of an aborted baby on the tellie.
Just check out the Halloween movie-thons being advertised on cable–Chuckie, Jason, lip-smacking horned red devils pulling the guts out of their victims, etc. And that occurs on some of the UPN and WB series. (Or maybe big brother is watching and the younger sibs are playing in that environment.)
But while that “entertainment” is fantasy, unfortunately aborted babies are real. About which would you rather have your child educated? The Halloween stuff on their own, or you sitting down and explaining some of the real stuff like war and abortion?
Yes, the graphic photo’s go to far. Why should I have to explain to my 5 year old the context of the of these photo’s. It’s sure is funny, just a year ago many of these protesters were probably the one’s complaining about Mel Gibson’s Christ movie about being to graphic.
Yes Janabanana, you would be correct. It is autrocious that schools have day care centers in them, and planned parenthood right down the hall. Why are we promoting reckless promiscuity to children?
We have several families who are foster parents, for whatever age children need a loving home. We also have families who will and have adopted babies, without question.
Maybe you should ask us what we do, and check things out before you accuse us of being hypocrites.
What are people thinking?Why not allow truth to prevail.If the picture shows a dead child let it be.We should not kill.Let us start there.How can anyone defend death to the child and using day care or some other change of topic excuse to hide from the more serious issue. Want to defend it? What are they thinking? What guilt do they carry?
The government brain washing at public schools is as successful as the National Socialists of Germany, the Communist of the Soviet Union was and China and Cuba have been. Teachers are no more than propoganda ministers and with few exceptions most teachers are pro-abortion.
The picture is useless without the context in which it was taken. If the abortion were necessary to save the life of a mother with other young children who would be left to the state, for example, then the abortion is perfectly justified. If the child were physically and/or mentally damaged to the point that even bringing it to term would be a miracle, then its abortion is justified. We have been endowed with the ability to choose, the intellect to judge, and the freedom to act. Even Christian theology states that if a decision is made freely in good conscience then it is justified. As Martin Luther said when challenged to recant, “…to go against conscience is neither right nor safe.”
I am going to go out on a limb here. I know the truth about abortion. Technically it is killing a future human life. I don’t need protesters to tell me “the truth”. I am ok with the “truth”.I am lucky. I married a good man. I made good choices and have been sexually active only with him. I have been pregnant twice with 2 healthy boys to show for it.I have also traveled around the world.I have another truth.Life is hard.Issues that come up in life are never black and white, but shades of grey, red, yellow and blue. You can make choices black and white for YOU, but you can’t make anyone else see things the way you see them.I also have another truth for you. Most women that have abortions know what they have done and they are living with it everyday. I am sorry for the few that feel like they were lied to. Maybe they didn’t want to know the truth and now have regrets.But those decision are left between that woman and her God.
I’ll bet that every poster here that defends the actions of the pro-lifers support capital punishment, torture of prisoners, and war.
Tell me again about how ALL life is sacred.
These people may be anti-abortion, but pro-life? No way! As someone who has been a volunteer patient escort at women’s clinics for some few years, I’ve watched as some of these same people sent their children to run into the street in front of moving cars, so the cars would stop long enough for the parents to shove tracts in the windows.I took photos of their children looking half-starved, dressed badly, being made to hold those posters.I have had to call the police when they leave babies unattended in hot cars, or in strollers in cold weather while they protest.I’ve seen their children taught the value of vandalism and the righteousness of hatred.I was there when one man bragged of abandoning his wife and children to join the protests, and again when another man was accused by a fellow protester of fondling her child.One of the featured protesters at the schools this time around was a registered child rapist.Of course, it was all to save children!
Notice how the dude driving the truck is a man?
Abortion is not about “saving babies.” If it were, pro-life people would be leading the charge to stop the war in Iraq where we routinely drop bombs on houses that kill babies.
They would be damning Bush to hell for doing nothing to stop the Somalian babies left to starve to death by their genocidal government.
No, it’s not the babies. It’s the sex. They want to condemn women who have sex to the “punishment” of having to carry that child to term.
That’s why pro-lifers generally oppose not only abortion but birth control. If you do it, ladies, you have to bear it.
The conservatives even oppose a vaccine to help women avoid contracting STD’s. They want sexually active women to GET diseases if at all possible . . .
Thanks Guys for joining in. I thought I was going to be on my own in here!You notice how our regular fiscal conservatives are absent from this conversation?!I wonder if it is because they don’t want to pay for all the welfare babies. So they are remaining silent on this issue… Just as long as the pro-lifers continue to vote Republican.
Jana,We’d never leave you out on a limb!
If those signs are effective in exposing what an abortion looks like, more power to those who carry them! Hopefully the signs make a person think twice before having an abortion out of convenience. Those signs offend? TOO BAD!!!
If you think that anti abortion is about getting into people’s sex lives, you are full of shit!
Jed, you talk about other people and what they are doing at abortion protests while you aid and abed a murder.
At least people who are up for capital punishment had a chance to live. They blew it.
I hope that Miers is an anti-abortion activist and that she and the rest of the court vote to overturn RvW.
Most of my posts try to bring the connection between the stupid morality run the Mayor is on and the obscenity of the pictures plastered in someone’s face without their consent.What this episode reminds me again and again is how many Saturdays, after working a long 60 hour week I would come home from work. Not to be able to enjoy a Saturday movie night with my family. No. Instead I would come home after a hard days work and listen to the horns honking and people chanting/shouting from the same church that is protesting high schools.This same church would send their families and their children to protest at a business that is only open to adults. Wonderful way to create a strong stable family environment to teach our youth the truth.We’ve lived in this neighborhood many years. Long before the church up the street was run by this owner. It’s been a good neighborhood with most of the people that live here being the same people who built the houses. The neighborhood has been changing. Many of the original owners have passed on and other family members live here. I can’t remember my neighbors ever complaining of the adult business down the street. In fact, I’m sure many of them aren’t even sure what it is. The business is that quiet. There were many neighbors who complained about the church and their narrow minded tolerance.I would be interested in hearing how many of the protesters have ever adopted a child, not a baby. Or taken a foster child into their homes to see first hand what happens to a child that doesn’t have the care it need? Someone asked that question earlier and it’s a valid question.Finally, what is wrong with sex? Why is it a bad thing? Sex is a gift the lord gave us. One of the few beautiful things that we were gifted with.
I find it ironic that people are offended by a picture of an aborted “fetus.” Maybe they are offended because they finally realize that this “fetus” actually looks like a bloody baby that has been murdered? Think about this…would everyone be offended if they put a picture of a human heart on display? I doubt it. According to the pro-abortion fools, a “fetus” isn’t a baby, its just another part of the human body. Stop
So, let me get this straight. We trust an army corps commander when he consciously decides to send a division to certain death based on the greater good to be accrued from this action, but we don’t trust an individual to be able to make a judicious decision about the potential life of an unborn child weighed against the totality of their life situation. Somehow the distinction eludes me.
Sum1, nothing’s wrong with sex. No one is saying there is – only the idiots who say that conservatives don’t have sex, blah, blah, blah. It’s a great thing. But it needs to go hand in hand with responsibility.
Nojo. You want to talk about aiding and abetting a murdered. What are your thoughts on the 39 civilians that were murdered in Iraq?.. part of the 70 insurgents killed? Why aren’t you crying for all the victims? or are they just not convenient?
Justin, just to point out how totally ridiculous your idea is. Tell, me for what reason a group of fanatics would be walking around with a human heart on a poster?
There’s this little idea called war. Check into it and it’s implications.
While attending the River Festival this year, the anti-abortion team was across the street from Century II with at least 4 mural sized posters. I don’t recall seeing any of the porn shops displaying their wares for all to see. Or did I just miss that? I noticed that it wasn’t long before the pix were gone and all that was left were a few people handing out fliers. They didn’t draw much of a crowd. Most of the festival goers gave them a very wide berth.
Yes..and there’s a little thing called life where we are required to make choices every moment of every day. Individuals are generally more competent to assess their particular life situations than are total strangers. Just as the military commander sent innocent men to their deaths based on his honest and best evaluation of the current situation, then so too must I assess the potential life of an unborn fetus against the lives of those for whom I am responsible. As I said before, there is no fault, crime, or sin when a person freely arrives at a decision based on issues of conscience.
NoJoCo, are you saying you believe that a woman wakes up one morning and says, “Gee, this would be a great day for an abortion!” and hustles on down to Tiller’s clinic to get it?
Have any of you relinquished a child for adoption? Do you know the hell women go through when they do? It has to be the same kind of hell–and worse–for a woman to make the decision to end the life of a child. But guess what? It isn’t YOUR choice.
I’m pro-choice, not pro-abortion, and if you can’t see a difference, then I’ll explain it. The decision is between a woman, her doctor, and whatever higher being she believes in, be it God, Allah, Jehovah, or Obiwan Konobe. No matter what she chooses–abortion, keeping the child, adoption–she will live with that decision for the rest of her life.
It always surprises me that it’s the men who weigh in most heavily on the abortion issue. Men who will never have to fear carrying the fetus of a rapist or of giving birth to a severely deformed child. Men will never have to go through the pain of giving birth, period. For them it’s simply a matter of To Condom or Not to Condom, and most will choose the latter, with little regard for the consequences. Women are most often the ones left by men to raise the children. Why else would Child Support Enforcement be needed?
Law or no law, Roe v. Wade or no Roe v. Wade, some women will choose abortion. Abortions have been around since the beginning of time. They will continue, with or without legislation made by men.
No offense intended to the pro-choice guys out there.
Nojo,If you’re thinking those pictures are what an aborted fetus looks like, you’re sadly mistaken. Those pictures are of fetuses much later along than the usual abortion, and according to an OB I know, at least some show signs of having been deceased in utero; in other words, stillborn- not aborted. In other words, they are propaganda, not the “Truth.” Not that that distinction means much to you fundies.
RD, None taken! You’re telling it like it is.
Readers are more sophisticated today, so the argument of rape or incest doesn’t fly. Next-day medical proceedures (DNC?) will prevent possiblity of pregnacy. Doctor office visit versus abortion. HMMMM. No more coat hanger argument. So let’s break down what scenarios are left to discuss;
Unwanted pregnacies for concensual sex
Known baby abnormalities beyond parent capabilities
What are some other scenarios?
ID, that’s D AND C. Dialation and cuterage. It’s used for a lot of things.
Hospital rape kits already carry a ‘morning after’ type pill and have for at least 20 years. (Yes, even the Catholic hospitals.) Not every woman reports rape, though, so there are holes in that argument.
The same with incest. Most incest is not reported. Still. And it doesn’t only go on in lower income families. It happens in every socio-economic level.
So what are others? How about the often mentioned life of the mother?
But that brings us back to YOU (or whomever, including government) deciding who can and can’t. I’ll say it again. Abortion is a medical procedure and a personal decision that should not be legislated.
Jed, glad you understood. And you’re right about the propaganda.
You’re doin’ fine jana. I got your back too.
Wow I get in on this one late. Lots of what I would say has already been said. But here goes.
I find it strange that with few exceptions, the very folks who are in favor of these “abortion” pictures are the same folk who support a President who does not allow photos of coffins coming home from the Iraq war. Such folk also seem to not want us to see pictures of our servicemen and women practicing torture and abuse on “enemy combatants” Extra puzzling to me is one conservative poster here (sorry I forgot your name) that seemed to object to planned parenthood availabilty at the schools where the protest pics were so displayed. Unfathomable to me is that same posters problem with daycare in those schools for young women who did not choose abortion.
Thing is, I don’t think anyone is PRO ABORTION. Last I knew there were no activists grabbing pregnant women on the streets and encouraging them to get an abortion. Indeed the very folk who oppose abortion the loudest seem to do the most to encourage it. But I’ll get back to that later.
I feel particularly qualified to speak to this. I have been on both sides. And I’m gonna reveal abit of myself as to why.
I used to be VEHEMENTLY pro life. Wanna know why? I was a young frustrated man who wasn’t getting any action (if you take my meaning) Back then, to me, pregnancy was a punishment! Now I would never have admitted that back then. I had all sorts of high minded rhetoric. But the truth was some guys were getting to do something I wasn’t. I wanted them to pay. I wanted the women who pleasured them, but not me, to pay. Someone above posted concerns about men being all into opposing abortion when they don’t have babies. I think my honestly stated former stance in illustrative to that.
Well, eventually I became a parent. I figured out that a child is not a puishment and that parenthood is an awesome responsibility. Ultimately, I became a single parent and I am so to this day. My take now with considerable experience is that not only should parent hood not be forced or coerced. You can’t make it happen or teach it. It’s gotta be something you actively and with all your heart and stamina WANT to do.
Now I revealed a great deal about myself in this post. It’s all true.
I wish we lived in a world where every child was wanted and loved. I really do. Now there are, I trust, folks on the “pro-life” side who are not motivated as I used to be by self centered motives. Those are the folks I want to reach here. Folks like I used to be got personal issues. But for those of you so for right to life for the right reasons; you folks have to deal in reality. Hillary Clinton said “It takes a village to raise a child” and I bet absolutely no one on the right would support that statement and they despise the woman who said it. But fact is it is true. And please quit with the diversions. Yeah there are folks on long lists waiting to adopt. But they are looking to adopt a healthy white baby. Don’t tell me I’m wrong, new chief justice of the Supreme Court Roberts went to South America to do it. There are lots of African American and Hispanic babies available for adoption as well as many babies of any race and age with significant physical disabilities. Don’tplay the adotion ploy. That’s a dodge.
If you REALLY want abortion to end, quit making excuses and embrace the reality. Human sexuality is a fact. Not every, probably not even most pregnanacies are planned. Make parenthood something that is at least compensated and supported by the village (America) ( uh oh I may be getting into welfare) if not actively encouraged and supported.
And if “god” does not like naughty sex? Let’s let him do the punishing in the next world and agree to embrace the babies of such “immoral” sex as gifts from him in this world, to be nurtured accordigly.
Whew
On the topic of the signs being displayed and protests being done at a high school: I don’t agree with their choice of time and place for their protest. I saw a similar group at WSU when I was in college and I thought that it was not appropriate then either. The signs are shocking and grotesque.
But Christians do need to be active in our efforts in the abortion issue. We need to work on our interpersonal communication with people. While Christ was on earth, he went to the people who were the scum of the society. He didn’t condemn them for who they were. We need to be where the “scum” are. (Not saying that people who have abortions are scum).
We need to emphasize the gift of salvation that comes through Christ. Once a person receives that gift, it doesn’t necessarily mean that life will be all hunky dory.
Unwanted pregnancies happen to Christians and non-Christians alike. To sit back and condemn people for their choices is wrong because non of us can cast the first stone. We need to support both people who have had abortions and those considering having an abortion.
There needs to be a revolution in the world. It needs to be done one individual at a time. God used twelve people to change the world. It can be done again.
Great talking point here. I’ve loved reading this blog. Even the posts I dont’ agree with have been informative, maybe not in the way the poster intended, but informative just the same.
I believe early pregnancy is one of the key factors in poverty.
If a person wanted to really make a difference instead of attacking people who are already in a bad situation they should look at the problems that put them there and work to correct them.
Incest is a great example. A child very early in their life is taught their role in life is sex. As they get older they accept premarital sex because that is what they are taught. Incest happens in a household without making a distinction between social or religious lines. (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001263321
Someone mentioned people making responsible choices about sex. How can a person make a responsible choice if they aren’t given the information that is needed to make that choice. Most abstinence programs are based on keeping peole ignorant. Recently I had the opportunity to talk to a teen who practised abstinence until marriage. Then she confided she engages in anal sex with her boyfriend. Thereby leaving herself still a virgin. She truly believed she wouldn’t catch a sexually transmitted diseases by practising sex this way.
To me that is scary.
rape is up this year while murder is down. Does this mean the moral agenda of the whitehouse isnt’ working?
Thanks JR! Good sharing!
I have a fried who’s parents are very religious and very pro-life (but they would never protest with signs like those). They have taken care of over a hundred foster kids…they have over 20 living with them now. Those people can be as pro-life as they want to be in my book. They are doing something much more substantial than standing outside a school with pictures of fetuses.AND their kids have been all races and some with disabilities.If all rabid pro-lifers lived like these people do, there wouldn’t be such an issue about unwanted kids. There would be enough parents to go around.
Since liberals only value political power, every one they help abort is a possible political enemy. The “mother” that had her children killed are usually liberals so the demonazises may loose a few potential supporters but they assure themselves of one live supporter.
What an incredibly dumb comment. I guess your mother caused some brain damage poking around with that coat hangar.
“If you think that anti abortion is about getting into people’s sex lives, you are full of shit!”
Well, gee, thanks for that deep insight, especially from the guy who’s always inveighing about raising the tone around here, heh.
But getting into people’s sex life is exactly what it’s about. Who is leading the charge against abortion? The Catholic church. And what institution has traditionally been obsessed with sex and repressing it? The Catholic church.
The church doctrine won’t even admit that Mary had other children besides Jesus. Why? Well, that would mean she had (gasp!) sex. She was a VIRGIN all her life, don’t you know.
You take sex out of the abortion issue and it becomes just another “helping poor children” issue, which conservatives aren’t much interested in.
JR,Great post! Exceptionally great, even! If everyone approached the subject with your personal integrity and honesty, the debate might actually solve some problems! Unfortunately, it’s degenerated into a forum for political and religious posturing, and the hell with reality.
Galahad..”You take sex out of the abortion issue and it becomes just another ‘helping poor children’ issue, which conservatives aren’t much interested in.”I take issue with that because once again you are lumping an idea with conservatives that just doesn’t fit.We (conservatives) have a ministry in downtown Wichita that gives support to poor and homeless kids. Our desire is to make them feel wanted and loved the way Christ would have. You ever see a small child strapped in the back seat while mom turns a trick in the front? Yeah.. it happens… but we are giving those ladies an option of bringing in their kids and letting us care for them so they don’t have to be exposed to that. We take food around the neighborhoods and seek out anyone who is cold, sick, or hungry and try to help! It’s the RIGHT thing to do… not the “liberal” thing to do!
Jed, There’s your reality.
Kansassam, Have YOU ever seen a small child strapped in the back seat while mom turns a trick in the front? Wouldn’t that make you the trick?
Boy Jubal, you’re really asking for it. These folks don’t have any sense of humor.
Jubal..Yes I have.. and no it does not make me the trick. But I DO know alot of those girls and many of the homeless people who frequent the streets on Friday and Saturday nights.
Well.. many of you on these boards don’t believe in God and only on observations. Here was an observation… and you still don’t believe it.
Don’t take it lightly.. there is alot of bad stuff going down on the streets of River City, and I know alot of conservative Christians who are placing themselves in scary situations to try and help out.
XXX.. don’t worry… I’m harmless, and I know Jubal is just trying to ruffle feathers. That’s how he gets his kicks I think. <=== see.. sense of humor!
Kansassam,And what was it that drove that woman to turn tricks in the front seat? Was it lust? Or was it poverty? Was it money for drugs that whatever other consequences they have, do ease the pain of grinding poverty and rejection?Tough questions; not nearly as easy as just saying “Don’t do that!” If you just want to assuage your guilt, go ahead and say it. If you really want to do something about it, it’ll take some real work and getting down to root causes. Nothing easy about that, but it’s a hell of a lot more rewarding than just pontificating. And it might actually make this world a better place in the process.
Jed..Explain to me who is pontificating. Noone judges them.. it’s mostly about poverty and addictions. They need help and unconditional love. Go ask them.. they will tell you about the people from Zao.
Pontificating.. Good word.. I had to look it up.. LOL!
Help and unconditional love, if it really is unconditional, and really is love, can go a long way toward getting individuals off the streets. It’s a very good and needed thing, but solving the problem means eliminating the situations that got them there to begin with. That’s a tough problem, or actually a lot of tough problems, that will not be solved overnight. A lot of attitudes and prejudices will have to be changed, and expensive alternatives will have to be provided. Yes, it’s asking a lot. Are we up to it?
You are right… and we don’t get any outside money, all we really do is help treat the symptoms and let them know that someone cares. It would be great to do more.. if you know anyone with a few million to give away…
sam, while you’re at it, look up the word ‘noone.’
While we’re lumping…Why is it that conservatives think (or at least announce) that liberals are the only ones getting abortions? And why is it that they think ALL liberals get abortions? Why is it that, according to them, the offspring of liberals are the only ones having premarital sex? I’ve known many conservative Christians whose sons and daughters have had to deal with pregnancies outside of marriage. I’ve known the same of liberal Christians.
I’ll stop lumping when you do.
Kansassam,I doubt we’ll find any millionaires- they’re too busy hanging on to their money- so we’ll all probably have to cough it up.But the attitudes and prejudices are a bigger part of the problem! Those may be more difficult to change, but also quite a bit cheaper to work on. Maybe part of your mission would be to put a human face on the problem. Get some of the women (and men) that you work with to tell their stories as honestly as possible, with the idea of using whatever resources you can come by to spread them as far as you can. Doesn’t take a fortune. We’ll still need a fortune, but we need that too!
So kansassam, do you spend a lot of time watching women “turn tricks”? Isn’t there a word for that? And you say there are a group of conservatives who do this? In the name of religion?
RD..What in the world are you talking about? I don’t remember lumping anyone….
Jubal..I really don’t have to explain to you, but for the sake of anyone who doesn’t know me yet. NO.. we don’t sit and watch women turn tricks…. but yes.. when one seeks out lost people in alleys and dark streets, you do see things like that. Lay off of us dude, we aren’t doing you any harm.. why would you choose to interfere with people doing good?
Jed..These folks are not going to draw attention to themselves. In Wichita, that would mean you will soon get rousted by the police. The city does not tolerate such “blemishes” on our fine community. They truly forget that these are real people with feelings who are hurting and don’t want to be where they are. I think God will provide when the time is right!
Kansassam,Doesn’t God help those who help themselves? Giving these people a face and voice will do more to protect them from the powers that be Than keeping their heads down and hoping nobody notices. Evil prefers darkness. So do politicians.Larry Hatteburg’s people series did a lot to give faces to people that normally wouldn’t attract notice. With someone like him, or the Eagle’s Mark McCormick on their side, the authorities would have to work much harder to find ways to hurt your people without creating a public opinion firestorm. That’s not to say they couldn’t, but people in power tend to follow the path of least resistance. Anyway, how could it get worse than having to spend a life trying to be invisible?My initial stint as an acivist was back during the civil rights push of the early ’60’s. And yes, things got worse before they could get better, but they did get better as people began to face what they had been trying to ignore. By forcing racists to go public, to operate in full view of the cameras, they were finally seen as the ugliness they were.The easy road is the one that doesn’t go anywhere.
I’m glad my honest post was appreciated. I am honeslty humbled by the praise. Thank you.
There are those with a pro life view and a committment to it. Of that I have no doubt. Jana your story was inspiring. Sam you do good work I think. But your last post troubles me, “God will provide when the time is right” Now Sam I think you are motivated by your perception of a divine message to do the good you do and that’s great. But as I stated above God is absent these debates and matters. Save his motivation of you to make a difference, I don’t see him “providing” much of anything.
I last addressed my own stance in the abortion debate from a personal angle…..having been on both sides. In that I addressed those who oppose abortion for selfish, personal reasons as I once did. There is no small portion of the “pro-life” crowd that falls into that category.
Now, I will tell you why that despite the very BEST of intentions of people who are TRULY and HONESTLY PRO LIFE (note no condescending quote marks) that abortion is never ever very likely to go away.
Nothing but nothing has more furthered the Conservative Republican agenda and it’s success then the Roe v Wade decision. This and attendant issues dealing in religion MADE and elevated the Republican party to power. Do any of you TRULY PRO LIFE folks imagine for one minute that they will nullify that issue? Of course not!
In simple straight forward language, YOU ARE BEING USED. You are esssentially one issue voters, and your issue is never gonna get addressed so you will keep voting as you do.
Now I’m an atheist. God does not speak to me. I have no “holy inspired mandate”. I do consider myself a moral person……..you know Fight for the little guy, protect the environment, feed the hungry, help kids……other “liberal stuff” that seems to put me at odds with SOME of those who claim to speak of and for God.
Point is, from the neutral atheist point of view, God is apolitical. You should be less wary of folks like me and more wary of those claiming to have his favor. From me you will get discourse and disagreement. From them, you will get disappointment and (shadowed) dismissal.
Abortion is never going away. Deal with that and fight not to end it but to ameliorate the causes for it.
Ok not as good as my last but I tried.
Sum41,To show you how naive you are…in Ahlber Hall on the WSU campus, there is a poster ON DISPLAY showing human lungs that are black and covered in tar because of the effects of smoking. You must think that this picture is obscene because it is part of the human body that has been removed and put on display. You also must think that the people that put this poster up are anti-smoking “fanatics.” My question to you is…what is the difference between black, tarred lungs that are put on display to show the effects of smoking, and the “fetus” that is put on display to show the effects of abortion? I’m sure you want both of the posters taken down, right?
Justin,I don’t consider either picture obscene. Actually, they’re both propaganda, which is worse!
Jed,So you think the use of these pictures is bad propaganda? Are these pictures untruthful… does an aborted baby not look like a bloody murdered baby? Does a smoker’s lungs not become black and tarred? The pictures of the aborted babies and smoker’s lungs are telling and showing the consequences of abortion and smoking. Do you want everyone be as ignorant as you and not know the consequences of LIFE changing decisions such as abortion and smoking? You only call these pictures bad propoganda because you don’t want to face-up to the facts.
Jed, JR,
Nicely, logically and thoughtfully laid out.
JR, isn’t it interesting that the GOP has found a way to focus attention on issues that are either settled law with no chance of being changed or absurdities that have no basis in fact? Aside from the abortion issue you mentioned here, these 2 examples come to mind: 1) the 10 commandments on display as blatantly Christian symbols in schools or public buildings like city halls or courthouses and 2) intelligent design as an alternative “scientific” explanation for common descent.
Jed, your response to Justin that pictures of a smoker’s lungs on display at WSU is propaganda in the same way and to the same extent as pictures of fetuses in varying stages of development are is dead on. Why don’t we add to the list pictures of the livers of alcoholics or pictures of skin cancers from too much suntanning, or maybe pictures of ulcerated stomachs and intestines from taking too much aspirin?
Certainly ulcers, melanomas, and cirrhosis of the liver are terrible things in the abstract. But should we outlaw aspirin because it has the potential to cause bleeding ulcers? Don’t we have to weigh this against aspirin’s benefits as a pain reliever and a blood thinning agent? Should we outlaw all exposure to the sun because of the correlation between it and skin cancer or must we weigh the fact that sunlight is necessary for vitamin D production and that sunlight helps us to enjoy life and relax? Should we bring back prohibition because alcoholism leads to liver damage, or should we consider that drinking in moderation has been shown to help lower risks for heart attacks and strokes, that a drink is often a precursor to social discourse, and that alcoholic beverages taste good?
Laws need to be fact based. If you plan to completely prohibit something by law with no exceptions then you must prove that there are no situations in which the prohibited activity might be beneficial or needed. In fact, very few activities can be completely banned on this basis. Laws prohibiting homicide in general have particular exceptions: protection of one’s own life or home, for example.
While no one wants abortion to be a common occurrence the fact is that there are genuine medical and ethical reasons for doing it in many cases. Since laws need to be fact based any laws concerning abortion MUST consider its necessity in some cases. In my opinion, we should forget the laws and let individuals come to their own conclusions.
Justin, my point is the poster you’re talking about is on a wall, not on someone’s van being driven around town.
JR..You are correct in saying that God is the motivation behind our ministry. It would be difficult to share the love of Christ without Christ. Before I found God, I had little or no motivation to help others or to do much of anything “good”.Here is what we believe God provides: 1. We pray for divine appointments… for us to meet those who we can truly help. 2. We pray for divine safety.. it is not always safe on the streets at night. 3. We pray for revival for all Christians to return to the teachings of Christ, and growth of the ministry. In 2 years, the ministry has grown from 2 to close to 50.. we meet in a building provided for free.. and we now have ministry for adults. teens, and children. 3 pastors with NO salaries, and a food and clothing pantry which is growing.So far, we feel that our prayers are being answered. Now, I understand that all of this could be attributed to chance or even hard work.. but we CHOOSE TO BELIEVE that God is in control.I also know that atheists do good things through their own motivations, so JR.. you are welcome to come and join us… it takes a diverse group to reach a diverse people.
Justin,If you go back up this thread, you’ll find my comments on the veracity of the “Truth Truck” pictures. They have nothing to do with truth, and everything to do with appealing to sentimentality. They are presented with the intent to be misleading, hence they are propaganda (a word, incidentally, that was invented by the Church, to describe it’s own activities).Issues such as abortion need to be debated in an atmosphere of reason. Such pictures, presented as they are, are lies meant to stifle debate.They are also an indication that the people presenting them know that they can’t win the debate on the merits of their case, and so must resort to lies and appeals to prejudice.They are also very hurtful to women who have miscarried, or had to have an abortion for medical reasons, and thus an indication that you really don’t care who you hurt, as long as you get your way! That, along with the threats some of you shout at the women going into clinics, doesn’t fit well with the image of christians as decent, caring human beings.So either come debate the issues reasonably, or take your propaganda and go home!
Quoting Jed, “Evil prefers darkness.” Abortionists such as Tiller keep their heads down and hope no one notices them as well.
The aborted fetus pictures expose obortions to the light as well.
Oh, and if Christ were here he would be smashing the exam tables in abortion clinics.
Let’s see, Oliver Cromwell also spoke to and for God and beheaded a king on the basis of those conversations. I think God was on the side of the Axis and the Allies in WWII.
I’m amused and scared by those who claim to speak for God. I’m also scared by people who assume that God is driven by the same human frailties and passions that we are. What a naive view of the divine..God as Zeus throwing thunderbolts (or tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, STDs..your choice).
Why not admit we have NO IDEA what God is like or what He would think or say. ALL that we can say is that God, if He exists is the source of BE-ing. The divine, or God if you prefer, is the thing in the universe that causes things to BE. When you dream, you cause the dream characters to BE, but you yourself (usually) aren’t directly involved as the dream God, throwing thunderbolts and razing cities and countries.
If we’d all be a little bit more humble and circumspect and focus on THE WORK, we’d all find ourselves more closely aligned, regardless of faith or theology.
Well folks, where does it stop? Do anti-handgun people like me get to drive around and show a kid with half her head shot off?
Do anti-war protestors get to drive “truth trucks” around with dismembered Iraqis on the side from American tax-payer funded bombs?
How about showing the ravenges of a particularly nasty STD to stop people from having promiscuous sex?
Or maybe the picture of a priest engaged in a sex act with a choir boy to show “the truth” about child sex abuse?
I know what happens during an abortion just like I know what happens when a person evacuates their bowels.
I don’t need a gory and graphic picture of it to raise my consciousness to it . . .
NoJo,”Abortionists such as Tiller keep their heads down and hope no one notices them as well.”I hate to point this out, but the admitted reason you christians have gone after Tiller with such vengeance is that he’s the most visible symbol of abortion around! As one of the most vocal advocates of a woman’s right to choose, he’s hardly kept his head down! And the only light your bloody pictures shed is on the lengths to which you’ll go to have your vengeance!If Christ were here, he might, or he might take pity on those forced to go to such lengths to survive. You don’t know what he’d do. It’s astoundingly presumptive of you to use him as your excuse for your own viciousness!—–
Jed,That is impressive that you know where the word propaganda came from, but do you know what it means? Propaganda is information that is put out to support the views of a person or people. Therefore, any information or evidence that is given to support a view is propoganda. Propaganda is not something that is bad unless it is untruthful. Now, according to what you said you believe that this picture is a “lie” and that “Those pictures are of fetuses much later along than the usual abortion.” So now the debate changes to whether or not the pictures are truthful, and because I am not part of this organization nor was present when the picture was taken I cannot say for sure whether the picture is truthful. However, from my own research and taking numerous bilogy, and physiology classes, I have found that a baby at the end of the first 8 weeks after conception is “approximately 30-40mm from crown of the head to rump.” The picture shows a baby that is without a doubt no longer than 2 inches. Now, I am just wondering when you think most abortions take place? The day after conception? Of course not. I also find it almost unbelievable that you think that abortion is as simple of a procedure as taking a shot in the arm. Unless you can prove to me that the pictures are doctored and aren’t real, then I am going to have to believe they are real, not because of blind faith, but through research and logical reasoning. Now I am going to have to bring up some of the false assumptions that you made. I am not and will not be a part of this group that displays these pictures. Not because I disagree with showing the pictures, but because I dont agree with the tactics of the group. The protesters should not assume that they are going to change anyones mind by simply offending people. So if their goal is to change minds directly through protesting, they have failed. Not only have they failed, their message was easily mistaken for hate. I dont believe these people hate the women or even the doctors that performed the abortion. However, I do believe like all of us they are passionate about their beliefs on abortion. However, many of their tactics are only offending the opposition without getting anything accomplished. I agree with you that abortion needs to be brought up in an atmosphere of reason. However, I believe showing the truthful consequences of abortion is reasonable. I ask you to approach all information (propoganda) with the same open mind that liberals preach to us christians. Do not just dismiss everything as lies because the evidence doesnt agree with your opinions.
Justin,
Propaganda is rather more than what you define it to be.
The aim of propaganda is to influence people’s opinions actively, rather than to merely communicate the facts about something. For example, propaganda might be used to garner either support or disapproval of a certain position, rather than to simply present the position. What separates propaganda from “normal” communication is in the subtle, often insidious, ways that the message attempts to shape opinion. For example, propaganda is often presented in a way that attempts to deliberately evoke a strong emotion, especially by suggesting illogical (or non-intuitive) relationships between concepts.
BTW, that is an encyclopedia definition of the word and its meaning.
So, I dare say Jed’s usage was apt.
Galahad,I find it funny and hypocritical of you to bring up the STD issue. I was just curious to whether or not you know anything about Planned Parenthood organization. It happens to be a favorite of most liberals. One of Planned Parenthood’s tactics to fight teen pregnancy is by going into high schools and giving a presentation. The presentation is a collection of pictures showing “the ravenges of particularly nasty STDs.” These are real, and graphic pictures, and the whole purpose is to “stop people from having promiscuous sex.” Now, according to your comments you will be extremely upset about these pictures (propaganda) being shown to high school students. Will you be contacting Planned Parenthood letting them know how outraged you are?
Justin,Yes, I know the meaning of the word. When combined with the old, and still somewhat used doctrine that “A sin is no sin when done for the glory of God,” it means that any lie can be told, anyone hurt, as long as it furthers your cause! The end justifies the means. Churches have used used it in just that context for centuries!I too have seen the pictures in biology texts, and I’ve been a volunteer at clinics for some few years now. When abortions are done by the 12th week, as most are, there is very little recognizable in the remains. The pictures they’ve shown are either miscarriages, late-term abortions or still-births, according to doctors I’ve consulted. Furthermore, they’ve been photoshopped, and badly, to make them appear even more gross. I work with Photoshop daily; it’s easy to spot when you know what to look for!In other words, those pictures are of something other that what they infer, are altered to promote their views, and so yes, propaganda is the proper term. And that’s being charitable!
Justin,I haven’t seen the pictures used in STD lectures, but if they are as overstated and misrepresented as the abortion posters, I have no truck with that either. Unfortunately, if I had to complain about every instance of propaganda today, my keyboard would have worn it’s way clear through my desk by now, so I tend to go after the most egregious and harmful examples, and hope for help on the others.
Thanks, Brian!
Justin–
I was not familar with Planned Parenthood doing this. It doesn’t seem consistent with their overall message. But if it is true, I don’t have a problem with it because it is part of a high school class or presentation and professional educators have deemed it appropriate for their students.
What I don’t like is that pro-lifers are subjecting every passer-by to their gory pictures. Children, old ladies, people eating ice cream, they don’t care, the pro-lifers ram this crap down their throat.
I think they should park that truck at Newman University so their Catholic students can see the “truth” every time they walk across campus. Or put it next to the Immanuel Baptist Church and let Terry Fox gag on it . . .
Galahad,One of the main reasons that drugs became a problem in the ’60’s was that kids discovered that what they were being fed as information on drugs turned out to be propaganda. Flat out lies! And since the authorities were in the middle of a propaganda campaign, they discouraged research into the causes and effects of addiction, for fear that any information they came up with might contradict them. As a result, kids, knowing they’d been lied to, dismissed everything the authorities had to say on any subject, and the scientists had no data to produce about the real problems of drugs.That’s one of the main problems I have with propaganda. It’s a short-term solution that negates any long-term fix. Besides that, it’s a technique that’s been used to sell everything from shampoo to racism to nuclear warfare, and insults anyone capable of thinking! It should be exposed and stomped on every time it rears it’s lying face! Anywhere!
Justin,
I’m sorry that you’re too myopic to see the difference between what Planned Parenthood is doing and what the abortion folks do.
In the case of STDs there is not a scintilla of doubt or controversy that STDs can lead to severe medical and psychological problems, even death, if left untreated. In addition, their communicative nature means that health officials have a stake in making sure that every attempt is made to control their movement and spread.
As far as abortion is concerned, there is no general concensus that it is immoral or sinful. There is no concensus that the “thing” being discussed is even a human life. For example, it is the position of most Jewish sects that life does not begin UNTIL birth. Further, abortions are not generally the concern of state health departments or individuals not close to the woman.
So, while abortion protesters may have the right to propagandize (used here as defined by me above), please don’t try to tell us that their actions are equivalent to the in any way to the actions or motivations of Planned Parenthood.
So your MO is by concensus, Brian? Abortion is not immoral? That being in a womens womb with a beating heart, a nervous system, and brain waves is a “thing”? You are about 10 years behind in the debate, pal.
You need to read the above postings and catch up.
Instead of drawing a line in the sand, one side hunkered in as much as the other with no chance to win on either side, I think we have the knowledge (but not the will) to solve the abortion issue WITHOUT a morality law. Just as we humans are motivated/incented to act/react, we can can be demotivated/disincented a human to act/react to a different choice. I think ‘concensus’ is that abortion is the last and most unpleasant option. If you think abortion should be the birth control of choice, then the end IS really near.
What motivations or incentives can we (society) provide men and women (especially the women since she carries the unborn child) to make different choices? If we can be successful at creating an environment to make the right choices, then there would be no reason to legislate morality. Guess that’s the libertarian in me.
ID,
I hate to tell you, but in the US laws must be factually based and for the law to have meaning accepted by the majority of people who come under it.
As to whether a fetus is a human life or not, I’ve already posted for your consideration the fact that most sects of Judaism do not consider the fetus as anything more than a “thing”. Exodus describes the worth of a fetus as beneath that of a human being (implying that it is not)..Further, the Bible continually refers to God “breathing life” into the fetus at birth.
Those with responsibilty for the lives (and deaths) of others, like military commanders, and even doctors in some countries, weigh the value of some lives against the value of others, and oftentimes they must make the hard decision that some lives must be sacrificed for the greater good. We seem to have no ethical or moral compunction to call these choices “murder”. Since the status of the fetus is not settled either in law or in religious practice, or in societal norms, abortion is even one step further removed from “murder”. Terry Schiavo also had a beating heart, but she was dead, long and gone, years before the plug was pulled. A beating heart and nervous response don’t define that which we call “human”. Humanity is defined by cognizance of oneself and others, by the ability to empathize with others, and by the ability to “know”. As the old saying goes mankind is the creature who knows, and who knows that he knows.
Until there is concensus in the population that abortion is a criminal act, then it should stand as a viable alternative for those who have honestly and in good conscience decided that it is the best option for their particular situation.
Brinn,Calm down…then read my post again. I never gave my opinion on the Planned Parenthood presentations. Galahad shouldve been outraged by them. Here’s what he said at first: “How about showing the ravenges of a particularly nasty STD to stop people from having promiscuous sex?” I just simply pointed it out to him that Planned Parenthood is doing that exact thing. He’s the one that compared the two, so go try to correct his “myopic” vision haha. I think he changed his position and decided it wasnt that bad after all, so you might want to get him straightened out before he posts again. By the way, you can remove your foot from your mouth now. I dont blame you for this mistake. Anyone would make that mistake when they are desperate like you are to find a topic that you can debate and win. I’ll give you some advice for the future, so you dont make a mistake like this again. Don’t assume what my opinions are, and dont tell me what my opinions are. I am simply here to stir you guys up and expose your positions for what they are. This is why you are always on the defensive. I have given very few of my opinions, yet you and Jed try to make false assumptions that are wrong. Both times this has happened…you and Jed have looked like fools. Good luck in the future.
Brian,Didnt mean to spell you name wrong…my bad.
And ID,
I guess you must have an excellent pair of glasses because your reading what isn’t there. NOT ONE person who has made a comment on this blog has said that abortion is or should be the option of choice. In fact, just the opposite.
Justin,
While ID is having a hard time reading between the lines, I’m not. The nature and intent of your posts is pretty clear. You raised Planned Parenthood as a counter to what the abortion folks were doing with the intent of evoking “…a strong emotion, especially by suggesting illogical (or non-intuitive) relationships between concepts.” See the definition of “propaganda” above.
Since you want to stoop to the childish practice of hurling epithets, I’m with ya. A long period of non-posting would be most welcome on your part. To quote Thomas Brackett Reed: “They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.”
Brian,There you go assuming what my opinion is. You obviously didnt listen carefully to what I said. Here’s my opinion on the Planned Parenthood issue. I thought the pictures that I viewed while I was in high school were graphic. I had already made up my mind that I wasnt going to take the chance of contracting these diseases, so I laid my head down on my desk and didnt watch anymore of the pictures. Do I think they shouldnt have shown those pictures to us? Of course we should see those pictures. High school students are old enough to have sex, however, I believe they shouldnt because it is irresponsible to have it outside marriage. I feel that students should be presented with the reality of the consequences of having sex. Now, to apply this to the abortion topic. I feel that if someone is old enough to understand what abortion is then they should be presented with all of the facts of abortion. We shouldnt sugar coat it and make it seem like it is just a shot in the arm. Let’s present everyone with the reality of abortion just like we present them with the reality of STD’s.
Now to this silly debate about the use of the word propaganda. I must admit your definition is much better than mine. However, I did get mine from the dictionary, so it was not merely my opinion. I am wondering were you got your defintion? Please site it for me. No definition that I have found has said that propaganda is the used to “suggest illogical relationships between concepts.” If this is actually what propaganda is I would have to say that showing the pictures of an aborted fetus is not propaganda. It is truthful information that should be presented to everyone that is mature enough to handle it. Someone that is old enough to understand the issue should be shown all of the facts, including what the consequences look like. To show this picture to a small child that does not understand the topic is irresponsible. Therefore, here is another opinion of mine; this picture should not be driven around town on the side of a truck, where there is a possiblity for a small child to see it. But to not show the picture at all is ridiculous.
That’s right, Bri. No one has said abortion is the option of choice. I was taking the debate to the extreme, and making a point that you just help me make. Abortion is a choice nontheless (until R v W is overturned), and why isn’t it the option of choice? Because it is a bad choice that can be prevented.
But then, if you are intent on desensitizing yourself to the fact that the fetus at anytime in gestation is a human, then you’re on crack. Guess I would refer to something more modern than the Bible to accept as ‘gospel’ the fetus is a human at some point in between conception and birth, like…say…oh…a medical journal!
There is some basicic underlying facts that you have to accept before you can participate in the problem solving process. That’s assuming you want to move to a ‘concensus’! lol
Justin, Indeed I saw what your opinion was. Your intent, sophistry removed, was to claim a certain equivalence between the two groups as to methods and tactics to supply “information”.
I pointed out for you, just in case you were unaware, that there was a huge gulf between the two..Planned Parenthood basing its presentations on hard science and on public health concerns with the approval of state medical and health practitioners. If you wish to extend the definition of “propaganda” to this type of activity, then all knowledge is propaganda… and the word loses cogent meaning.
You can find the definition of propaganda I used at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
Certainly the images of fetuses are what they are. That is hardly the point. The point is the “spin” put on the display of images and the manner in which they were presented. Although I wasn’t there what I have seen reported was hardly a civil discussion of the various points of view on an issue, but an attempt to incite and to disgust. I hope we can at least agree on that.
ID,
if the issue were so clear cut and the science so convinvcing..please cite for me some peer reviewed papers that point out when a fetus becomes human. Obviously a rhetorical request since, at this point in time the issue is a legal one, not a scientific one.
I used the Biblical references merely to point out that the issue is an old one, and (horror of horrors!) that older view kinda came down on the side of the fetus as a thing.
Since you too seem to have a penchant for personal epithets, let me just say just when I think, “Surely this person has reached and encapsulates the limits of Internet tedium” you go and push the boundary even further.
You’ll get over it Brian.
Knock yourself out. http://content.nejm.org/
If your post rules are basis legal, the I guess freedom of speech can be used on both sides.
For those who want the latest stats on abortions…http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus04.pdf
Hey, ID, Thanks for the link..now point out which article you want to me peruse.
Brian,I was at the protest on the WSU campus, and I had a productive talk with one of the protesters about the purpose of the protest. Protests are for bringing attention to the subject, not solving problems directly. I said this in an earlier post by the way. Therefore, the use of these pictures is a tactic to bring attention to the subject. If the pictures are false and untruthful they should not be used. But pictures that capture the attention of people are perfectly reasonable if the people that are viewing the pictures are mature and can understand the issue. However, I disagree with some of the tactics of the protesters because it appeared to me that that many of them were only trying to making everyone mad. Would I have ran the protest differently? Yes, without a doubt. Would I have still used these pictures? Yes. Now you said that the “pictures of the fetuses are what they are.” I believe many people are shocked by the pictures because they dont realize that an abortion is such a brutal procedure. I also believe pro-abortionists are afraid of people becoming informed because once people realize the brutality and the results of abortions most will be offended by the brutality and join us pro-lifers.
Justin,Most people prefer not to look at the gory details of any surgical procedure. If you were going in for an appendectomy, would you want to be forced to look at the most bloody pictures anybody could find or cook up of appendectomies as you were being carted into the operating room?Would you want people yelling at you and telling you that you’ll burn in hell for eternity if you have one, and that God would want you to just go ahead and die, rather than have one? Would you want your picture and license plate photos posted on a website, pictures of ruptured appendixes mailed anonymously to your neighbors and coworkers, and recieve threatening calls at 2am? That’s the kind of fun and games these people feel morally obligated to play with patients!As to the question of when life begins, science doesn’t address that. It’s the realm of philosophy, and opinions are as varied as there are philosophers. To pick one and say it’s the only “correct” view is intellectually bankrupt.It sounds like you have a lot more living to do before you start playing internet games with people. Get back to us when your experiences have matured you a bit!
Wow you miss a little you miss a lot.
Brian you are emerging as one damn fine poster!
Ks Sam? I’m sorry you didn’t post more since your last. While I’ve no interest in joining your church (thank you though for the invite) I do have a new respect for you and what you do.
Justin? Now you post really well. Deal is you stated yourself that your agenda here is to “stir all of you up” Word to ‘ya Justin? We are all of us on any side already stirred up. Else we wouldn’t be here. There is a difference between a debater and an aggitator. Try and figure out which you are.
I said it before and I need to say it again. Abortion is never going away. I’ve cited various reasons for this. And I’ve not yet seen them refuted.
I’ll cite some more reasons though.
You can fight abortion with laws. (lotsa that trying to go on right now) You can fight abortion with “God” (I don’t think “God” has weighed in on the matter, and he certainly has the power to do so but thus far only “God” zealots bombs and bullets kill or maim Physicians that offer women choice. No ligtning from above yet.)
Sigh………so much time wasted on this non issue when there is so much more to debate………I guess that’s the point.
Abortion is a FACT. It is going to HAPPEN. Some women and even little girls will get pregnant ( by any number of means voluntary or not) and not want to have a baby. Prior to the ruling on Roe V Wade it did happen, with a great deal of side effect. If Roe V Wade is overturned it WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN with a great deal of currently avoidable side effect.
You cannot change a fact.You can only do your best to address the circumstances.
JR, Jed,
Thank you for stopping in ! I was beginning to feel abandoned !!
Justin,Yes, I noticed you had a WSU email address, so I assumed that you might have witnessed or at least had some good sources of information about the protest. I’d suggest you look at:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/20/health/main537243.shtml
I think perhaps that you underestimate people by assuming that they are ill-informed and that they they just need a little bit more “information”. Pro-life efforts have been underway since the passage of Roe v. Wade…how much longer are you going to need to find a winning strategy? Actually, much of what is going on in the US is quite pleasing. The religious zealotry, the intolerance it sometimes engenders, the turn away from civil discourse, are all signs of failure. A supernova burns most brightly at the point of its destruction. Ditto radical Islam..on its way out. Hopefully, we’ll see a more sane, tolerant, and open world i the not-to-distant future.
Oh, and ID…just posting a link to the New England Journal of Medicine and crossing your fingers in the hope that I would fall for the bluff is really not very good gamesmanship. Most people who post here have played blog poker long enough to be able to spot a bluff.
JR,Yep, abortion is fact. It’s been around for a long time. In fact, it was practiced as a wonderful thing for theological reasons by a number of early christian churches!The push to completely outlaw it in the US started in the 1860’s, promoted by Anthony Comstock, the Falwell of his day, who brought us all sorts of “Blue Laws.” Until then, it had been perfectly legal in the first trimester, and a matter for the states after that, with many having no restrictions at all.After the Comstock laws, abortion just went underground. Drugs formerly used to induce abortion were simply repackaged and sold for “female problems.” Doctors performed them in their offices, and for those who couldn’t afford doctors, there were people who did them on kitchen tables in appalling filth. Abortions were a major source of business for many chiropractors, and the draconian laws were seldom enforced. Their primary effect was to terrify women who had abortions, many to the point of dying rather than seeking help when it went wrong, and discouraging some qualified people from performing them, leaving more women to the tender mercies of quacks. While statistics from that period are hazy, at best, all indications are that abortion was, if anything, more common before the decision than it is now!All Roe v. Wade did was openly put abortion back in the hands of doctors and sterile conditions.That, of course, has infuriated the people who want to bring back all the Comstock Laws, and want women (but not men)to suffer and die for their sins.Any future outlawing of abortion will have no more effect on the number of abortions than the old one did. Just more women will die!
Brian,Sorry about that! I have to get my blogging time when I can. Don’t worry, you aren’t abandoned! We’ll catch up eventually.
Jed,I suppose I will start with your topic. Call me crazy, but I would want to know what the doctor would be removing from my body, I would want to know what it looks like, I would want to know what that the appendix does in my body, and would want to know all of the CONSEQUENCES of removing this from my body. Now dont get me wrong I would also want to know the benefits of removing it from my body too. Now this comparison is flawed because an appendectomy is an emergency procedure unlike most abortions. Now if you were logical and gathered all the information before you open your mouth you would have noticed that I dont approve of the select few extremist pro-lifers that harass women and doctors. Now please read my previous posts, while you chew on your foot. That comment about me being immature was quite funny. Maybe when I do become “mature” like you, I will be able to gather all the information that is availiable to me and then make a decision that I am comfortable with. haha. Your a fool, and you prove this point quite well.
Brian,Contrary to Jed’s naive beliefs, I am not ignorant to the fact that a majority of American believe some type of abortions should be legal. However, this poll says nothing about the knowlegdge that the people have about abortion. You may be comfortable with the situation in America, but what if a law was proposed that said we should eliminate abortions on demand. I would have to say from the poll results that a large majority of Americans would support it. Only 25 percent believe abortions should be legal in any circumstance, and only 35 percent support abortion rights when the woman or family cannot afford to raise the child. I was sitting in on a lecture of a prominent liberal professor on campus, and he brought up the fact that there are more conservative college age people now than there were back in the 60’s. This man was a socialogy professor and he pointed out that as societal generations become older they become more conservative. He mentioned to us students he was very worried about this and that it could lead to a disaster. I too am quite pleased with the outlook for conservatives. However, to be quite honest I believe abortion rights will eventually prevail. Not because they are superior or right but because the Bible says that the world will grow more and more evil each day. I do think you made a good point that extremists on any issue do not promote and advance there beliefs, but turn people away from it, as some anti-abortionists do.
JR,I’m not sure if your comment about me “posting well” is your honest opinion, but if it is…thank you. Now your second comment is a very good point. I did say that my agenda here is to stir everyone up. I only joined these debates because I think its fun. I dont post comments and opinions on here in a quest to change your minds. If you are anything like me (and I believe you all are), then your beliefs on abortion are your convictions. My convictions are beliefs that I hold that will not change by mere comments and posts that any of you can put on here. Convictions are deeper than that, they are a feeling that I hold deep inside me that you are right and nearly nothing will change your mind. I have to admit that this debate that I have had with you all is getting somewhat old and boring, so this will probably be my final post on here. But it has been fun, and I’m glad you all agree with me now haha only kidding.
Justin,
I see that you are a Christian who does take the Bible rather seriously. Have you ever questioned it in the same way and to the same degree that you have the abortion issue?
Let me start with the easy ones. You say that the Bible indicates that things will get worse in the near future. So what? If God has a “plan” for the world, then this must be a part of it, and everything will come out roses in the end anyway. And if God has a “plan” then Satan is part of the plan.
One more for good measure. There are so many, but here’s a good one. God must be amoral, that is, neither good nor evil. If God is one or the other exclusively, then someone or something had to categorize what is good and what is evil in the first place and assign “good” to God alone…umm, this basically says that there must be some amoral power greater than yor conception of God..in other words the “real” God.
Oh darn, once I start I can’t stop. How about this? God is not and cannot be omnipotent in the sense many Christians think. I can come up with lots of things God cannot do right now. God cannot compute the last digit of a transcendental number since they are infinite. So, it appears that God is subject to rules..and if this is true, would we not claim that the rules themselves have greater power than that which you conceive of as God?
JR..I really didn’t expect you to come join our church… can’t say we even have a “membership” roster of any kind. I was just saying that you, or anyone else, is welcome to come and help people.. no matter what your motivation.
Brian..The concepts of good and evil are difficult to grasp. Did God create evil? Or is evil the absense of God like cold is the absense of heat? Either way, the question boggles my mind! By the way.. God also cannot do anything inconsistent with his nature… like “lie”. But then again, he can “kill”… This is too much to think about.. that is why Christians must have “faith”. We don’t ignore the questions.. we just trust that the mystery will be solved when we meet God.
Sam,
I hear ya. But the problems go away if you don’t think of God as a guy with “magical” powers. If you treat God as simply the force of BE-ing in the universe, you don’t have to explain why he lets amoebas exist that get into children’s eyes in Africa and cause them to go blind, you don’t have to explain good and evil.
You come to the realization that the world is what it is and whatever it is is an exopression of what the divine is. If you’re a Buddhist, for example, you say, that “misery” is “utopia” (not quite in those terms). What they mean is that you see the world as a hell or as a heaven depending on your attitude towards what you see. If you focus upon “evil” and “bad” then that is what the world is. If you instead see the miracle, the awe, the mystery, the reality of God in everything you encounter, then it is a sobering and enlightening expeience and world.
Brian..I think John Lennon would have agreed with you!
A key point of Christianity is the “relationship” between God and man. Without the love then we just become a science experiment in some cosmic petri dish.. or something like that. Looking at it through my eyes… there is good and bad… but in the end, it can all be good. As you said.. perception is reality.. and in my perception, the evil in this world will never match the goodness of the next. That makes it much easier to tolerate the bad.
I think we see many of the same problems with this world.. we just choose to deal with them in different ways… and that’s OK.. as long as we don’t start trying to control each other.
Sam, agreed..now get back to THE WORK..:-))
Link works, Brian. You just have to pay for the info. Isn’t it worth some money to you to know the facts? Or do they not teach common sense out there?
ID,
Let me type a little louder.
YOU CAN”T JUST GIVE ME A LINK TO THE NEJM AND SAY “HAVE A FIELD DAY”…YOU SAID THERE WERE PEER REVIEWED ARTICLES THAT GIVE A DEFINITIVE DATE REGARDING WHEN A FETUS IS CONSIDERED “HUMAN”. I ASKED FOR THE REFERENCE>>I”M MORE THAN WILLING TO PAY. HERE’S WHAT A REFERENCE LOOKS LIKE:
SMITH, J., “THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN LIFE”, NEJM, 18(7), 2005.
ID
No references, huh?
They do teach us not to blow smoke up other peoples’ asses.
For starters, Brian…
Patten, B: Human Embryology. 3rd Ed. New York, McGraw-Hill, 1968.
Singleton Jr. R: Paradigms of science/society interaction: The abortion controversy. Persp Biol Med 32:174-194, 1989
Blechschmidt, E: The Beginnings of Human Life p. 63. New York: Springer-Verlag, 1977
Gardner, C: Is an Embryo a Person? The Nation, November 13th issue, pp. 557-559, 1989
Moore, K: Before We are Born, 3rd Ed. Philadelphia, W.B. Saunders, Co. 1989
ID
NONE of the have anything to do with the NEJM..so it is unclear why you would direct me there except as a diversionary ploy.
Oh, by the way, you found these at
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kisc/kisc_09defensehumandev.html
a pro-life website with a decided agenda. I asked for peer reviewed articles in the NEJM as you said there would be. In fact, I’ll accept an artcicle from the Lancet, the Journal of the American Medical Association, etc.
The fact that you went scurryting to a website to find some references indicates you never looked at them yourself and have never been in possession of them.
Let’s look at your “proof” in Moore..the last reference…
“This is a difficult question to answer because one’s views are affected by one’s religion and the views of one’s peers. The scientific answer is that the embryo always had human potential, and no other, from the time of fertilization because of its human chromosome constitution. Two things are definite: (1) human development begins at fertilization and (2) the zygote and early embryo are living organisms. My personal view is that the embryo becomes a human being during the eighth week when it acquires distinctive human characteristics, but you will have to decide for yourself after wide consultation.”
What this says, in so many words, is that human embryos develop into human beings and that the development towards being human begins at fertilization. This does NOT say that the embryo is human from conception. Note also that the author says…”My personal view is that the embryo becomes a human being during the eighth week when it acquires distinctive human characteristics, but you will have to decide for yourself after wide consultation.”
Ditto for the other references..
Very amusing..try again.
ID,
There’s no need to go any further. You’ve established to my satisfaction that you put your passions and most likely your religious devotion ahead of the known science and evidence. That’s fine, but please stop embarrassing yoursel and me by trying to use science to establish what is ultimately not a scientific issue. This is identical to the intelligent design debate. You cannot use scientific methods to establish the existence of a supreme being or designer or whatever you want to call it.
Wrong again, Brian. I use more than one source for my information. I think for myself. Don’t need Moveon, Soros, or anyone else since my independent mind looks at facts, figures, common sense and perspective to form my opinion. Since I’m not Catholic, I don’t, and have never said, humans are formed at conception.
NEMJ would cost you. These are free. A present from me to you, because you are special.
Ah, so since humans are not formed at conceptionj, then you are saying there is a period where you would allow abortion, yes?
Oh, and isn’t it odd that the references you supplied appeared in the identical order, with the identical text, that the website I showed you did? Are you saying you didn’t go there to get the references?
You also didn’t say anything about Moore saying that his statement were OPINION.
BTW, I have access to any journal you’d care to name, so feel free to name an article that establishes, via scientific methods the date, either exact or statistical, when a fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus becomes a human being.
I’ll answer foir you again, since it was rhetorically asked. No such scientific evidence exists.
Justin,Yes, you might want to see anatomical pictures of your appendix before surgery. That’s natural! It’s also your choice not to see those pictures, if you don’t want to. But the pictures these folks assault us with are not designed with education in mind; their only purpose is to horrify any way they can, and the facts be damned.And yes, we get women at the clinic who have to have emergency abortions, often of a wanted pregnancy, in order to live. The fundies treat them the same as all the others. They even say that any real mother would prefer to die than have an abortion!You say you don’t support their actions, but if you belong to a pro-life church or anti-abortion organization that appeals to the more moderate people, you probably do. Many of these groups send money to groups like Army of God and Operation Rescue West, who use it to support the most radical anti-abortion actions. It wouldn’t be surprising if money you gave to some moderate-seeming organization ended up funding the worst of the terrorists!So please, look into the facts, listen to the rhetoric critically, imagine you’re a woman in many such situations, and make up your mind for yourself. Don’t just swallow their line- it has a rather nasty hook on the end!