The concluding paragraph of Andrew Corsello’s lengthy article on Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline in the November GQ fits into the local debates over Kline’s priorities and protesters’ fetus signs: “So you can distrust Phill Kline’s motives. Call him a goon out to gut the right to privacy. Call him a shameless huckster who uses his formidable mind and mastery of tone to veil his ends-justify-the-means essentialism. But you can’t ignore what he wants you to look at. As a moral agent in the world, you ultimately don’t have the option not to decide what, when, and who a person is.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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58 Comments
goons
Seeking the truth.
I’m not even anti-abortionist. He is a stand up guy and trying to do the right thing.
Goons.
Next question . . .
Roe v Wade made abortion on demand legal in this country over thirty years ago.
Get over it.
Goon! He considers his personal morality greater than rule of law- the mark of every tyrant.
Because he has a higher calling, his god. Can he serve the people of Kansas and his god seperately? NO. He isn’t bright enough to seperate the two and all kansans will pay.
Even worse is the fact that guys like this are preventing much needed stem cell research that could change the world for the better. They’re not protecting unborn children, they’re preventing something that could save unborn children with medical conditions. That’s worse than the extremist christians who don’t believe in doctors.
Goon.I don’t appreciate having anybody’s religion shoved down my throat.
Phil Kline the GOON is living proof that we will expose no Hiney before it’s time.
SignedPresident of Hiney Wine Company
The abortion divide is one that won’t be bridged as long as there is not a concensus as to whether the unborn child in the womb is a human life. But I am glad that there are those such as A.G. Kline on the pro-life side who support reasoned debate of the issue. Strident confrontation of those on the other side (even if that is their tactic)only serves to harden hearts to reasoned arguments.
To assist those who support abortion rights in understanding the pro-life motivation, I offer this illustration: Suppose someone with a gun was going to shoot toddlers in a park. Anyone reading this post would do everything they could to stop this from happening. Why? Because innocent human life was in peril!
When you believe that the unborn child is human life, you see abortion in a similar light.
I believe that the science and technology is offering more and more evidence supportive of the humanity of the unborn. It is my hope and prayer that those on the pro-choice side consider the evidence and take a hard look at whether the unborn are human life and deserving of society’s protection.
So Dudley, just for the sake of reasoned argument. If science than proves that the fetus can not feel pain until 18 weeks. Nor does the fetus have any sense of being until then too. Will the pro-life change their view of abortion within 17 weeks of conception?
RD,Not a chance! Their idea of reasoned debate is to scream the propaganda their leaders wrote for them, as loud as they can, until everybody bows down and acknowledges their superior volume! They’ve been trained not to listen to reason.
Goon
However, he doesn’t have a chance against Morrison. This guy is a lawman, not a politician. That is what this position needs.
Dudley, well said!
Jed, the same can be said for those on the prochoice side. I’ve witnessed it MANY times.Most of us are somewhere in the middle of the issue, we’re the ones who have the ability to be reasonable about it. The ones who are extreme on one side or the other of the abortion issue are not interested in reason, they just have an ego driven need to shove their views down everyone else’s throat.
RD, since when does the ability to feel pain or have conscienceness determine whether one is alive or not? That doesn’t seem like much of a parameter to me.To me, a human being is alive when he/she has the ability to develop and grow.I don’t agree with Kline’s tactics, but I do agree with him that we all need to take a hard look at what abortion is.
Damoon,That look has been taken, and for decades. Neither side is going to concede an inch, no matter what science, reason or religion say! We’ve tried to get some kind of reasonable discussion going on the subject, to come to some consensus, but it has proved too emotional a subject on both sides to do that.
You people who think that abortion debates are strictly brought on by the religious community are incredibly narrow minded! Any woman who ever lost a pregnancy by miscarriage or by abortion would probably tell you that the loss of that “tissue” was the loss of a child — the loss of a baby that might have been. Even if the pregnancy was a “mistake,” you cannot deny the reality that the loss of “what might have been” is very real.Yes — abortion is legal. But I pity the individuals who must live with the guilt and the loss.This debate is not just a religious, conservative issue. To trivialize it as such is ludicrous.
Good post Gertie.
Well, you guys do your best to create that guilt!
To say Kline supports reasoned debate on the issue is laughable, but Kansas gets to foot the bill for his fishing vacation.Gertie – I might suggest imnotsorry.net to balance the idea that women only feel “guilt and loss” about abortion. Women feel many different things over both miscarriage and abortion. Why? Because miscarriage and abortion are intensely personal experiences.
Good post, Gertie! I’m glad not to be the only one who feels this way. I’ve seen a pregnancy miscarried at four months, (twins, and both were delivered alive) there is no doubt in my mind it’s a baby.
I noticed this quote – “As a moral agent in the world, you ultimately don’t have the option not to decide what, when, and who a person is.” But that is Phil et al.’s whole gig, he (and God according to his hermeneutic) has the only option to decide for you. Funny!
Allie, while I agree that every experience is personal, and that some women can rationalize their choices. I think you would hard pressed to find too many women who don’t ever look at the calendar and think “if I had had the baby, he would have been XXX years old by now…”As I said before, abortion is still legal, but the long term ramifications of making that legal decision are often life-long sadness for what might have been. For those women who never regret their choice… I’m glad they can live with themselves.
Allie, we all know you’re really smart, but would you cease with the big words? If you want to educate, inspire, or debate, then you have to communicate on a layman’s level. So what the hell does “hermeneutic” mean?
Jed, my previous posts were not at all meant to create guilt. If you want to read into my statements, that is your business.As a mother, I cannot imagine what it would be like to not have my children. I have several friends who made the choice to terminate their “unwanted” pregnancies in college, who are now haunted by their decisions, especially now that they have other children.I, myself, was faced with such a decision in my college years, and I chose to have my baby. My life changed drastically, and I had to change many of the plans I had for my future. It was a true sacrifice of “me,” at times. It was not easy being a single parent. But not a day has gone by that I don’t thank God that I didn’t make the easy choice. My daughter is now in her 20’s, and I shudder when I think that her life could have been terminated because it was “inconvenient” at the time.I know abortion is a very personal decision. I am so thankful that I chose life for my daughter.
You are right on, Gertie, I can honestly say I never met a woman who regretted giving birth, even if she chose to adopt her baby out. But I do know friends, family, and patients who have regreted their abortion and now have the “he/she would be this age by now” or “there would be another person at the dinner table” thoughts. I even had a close friend whose baby would most likely have been born with severe anomalies (she is an emergency room nurse and was exposed to CMV at work in the first trimester of her pregnancy), she decided it would be best to have an abortion and years later told me that she would have suffered less had she had chose to give birth and raised a handicapped child. She was in therapy for awhile trying to deal with the loss she felt.The worst regret I’ve encountered was my (then) 16 yr old babysitter. 25 yrs ago when they were doing the saline abortions, she was more than 5 months gestation when, being young and scared, she chose to have an abortion. They drained the amniotic fluid and filled the placenta with saline solution, and she could feel the baby struggle and thrash as it was convulsing and dying. This experience haunted her for years and she finally sought out therapy, which helped her with acceptance and forgiveness for herself, but she still has a nightmare about it once in awhile. If she could do her life over, she would have made a different choice, because to this day it is still her biggest regret. I know that not every woman (or man) has a negative reaction to having an abortion, but I think the potential regret is often downplayed by those on the prochoice side. It’s a serious issue, and no one can really say abortion is harmless to the woman who chooses to have one, there is always a risk. I’ve seen it personally more times than I care to.
Gertie,Of all the women I’ve known who had an abortion, and that includes one who had hers in 1930, only one felt any guilt at all, and she was catholic. You just want them to feel guilty!
Gertie,What other conclusion can we come to, when anti’s run up to the cars of women leaving the clinic, and yell “Tell your dead baby ‘Happy Birthday!’” that happens fairly often at the clinic where I volunteer, and is just about as mean-spirited a thing as I can think of! Christians, indeed!
Imagine an 8 year old who is being molested by her father. Try to think of how you would feel living every month until you were 18 wondering if you were going to be pregnant. What would happen, what were your choices? Do you really believe a child should have their fathers child?
Now, imagine a woman, recently divorced living in a bad neighborhood with her two children. Think how you would feel as a man climbs into your window in the dark and rapes you violently. What would your choice be? Do you really believe someone should be forced to live 9 months with a baby you both loved and hated?Already you can barely pay your bills. Since you’re the only breadwinner there is no way you can afford to even lose work for the doctor appointments and sick days involved in a pregnancy.Is it fair to the two existing children that they can’t have warm clothes and plenty of food to eat because someone violently destroyed their mother and she had a daily reminder?
Both of those experiences are true ones, they are mine. They are why I’m so adamant that abortion should at least be an option for the women who need that choice. I debated on admitting they are my past, but if I dont’, then how will anyone ever think past their own narrow lives.
Hermeneutic means the way you interpret things. It is a buzz word in academia right now, I will admit. I don’t know another way to say it. Kline and others have a certain way of reading scripture and God about abortion. I am sorry to use short hand, but I hate claiming that he and his God believe X, because I am a Christian, too. I worship the same God; I just don’t believe the same things about God. It substantiated the idea that Christians have to be pro-life. I must admit I love words, and http://www.m-w.com is a great place. I have to look up words all the time.About abortion and adoption. As I said, women have lots of feelings about it. Some women regret adoption and have on-going feelings of guilt about not raising their child, fears that the child is in a bad home, or fears that s/he will show up on their doorstep demanding answers, etc. Some regret abortion, some feel relieved by it. Pro-life people don’t want to accept that, so they say things like Gertie – the women just “rationalize” it. So, as long as she feels guilt, that is correct and proper, but if she feels relief that is “rationalizing”? It goes back to the deep distrust of women (their emotions and their choices) that the pro-life side has. I am not surprised that women, once their lives are stable and they enjoy having wanted children, might change their feelings about having an abortion. I accept that they feel that way (though I do agree with the others that pro-life people may try to make them feel that way), but that doesn’t mean that other women should be denied abortions.
In a perfect world there would be no need for abortions. I shared my experiences to try to bring attention to the fact we dont’ live in a perfect world.
Until we do a woman should be able to make this very personal choice for herself. Based on her circumstances of her life.Lets focus on the problems that create the need for abortions.
I”m sorry about the tragedy in your life, Sum 1. No one should ever have to go through what you’ve endured. But you sound like you’re a survivor, you’re strong and have a good head on your shoulders. I agree with you, there are things worse than abortion. But abortion is what it is, depriving another human of the opportunity to exist.Allie, you’re a Christian and I’m not (I’m not anything and I don’t believe in heaven, hell, or any sort of life after death), isn’t that ironic considering our stand on the issue? How do you get past the “Thou Shalt Not Kill” commandment? If your God creates a life, then how do you justify the right to terminate it, especially if it’s just for convenience? Or do you subscribe to the “ala carte” philosophy of religion, picking and choosing the parts of the bible you want to believe?I’m not putting you down, I just want to know how you’ve justified your views as a Christian.
Jed, just because you don’t know any women who regret having an abortion, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Like I said in my previous post, I’ve met plenty who have regretted that choice. I’ll also admit I also know some who don’t regret it. But the prochoice side really plays down the fact that many women do regret having an abortion.As for the people who harass the women at the clinic, they’re unreasonable and obnoxious, just like the extremists on the prochoice side. I still have the image of a prochoice jerk urinating on a nun who was simply kneeling outside a clinic praying for the babies and women inside and the bozos outside Tiller’s clinic who clapped and cheered everytime a woman seeking an abortion approached the clinic. Can you imagine? Having an abortion is sometimes the hardest and most tragic thing a woman can face and people are cheering and clapping? How unbelievably insensitive! Then to top it off, they’re screaming “Mary should have aborted Jesus” to the prolife people who were there. Unfortunately, these are the ones whose image we see on the news, just like the prolifers who drive the “truth truck” around town. Neither side will admit that their tactics backfire, turning people against them and everything they stand for.
Jed, I’m sorry that you feel the need to assume that ALL Christians must be like the ones you encounter at the abortion clinic. I am one Christian that will never do that. I just hope that by telling my personal story, that other women might be persuaded to look at alternatives to terminating a pregnancy before making such a permanent and drastic choice.
Allie, I am very willing to admit that some women are relieved by their choice to have an abortion. But I think those women (if studied over the long term…) would be a small minority. I do believe that MANY women (obviously not ALL) rationalize their choice in order to cope with it.
I got into this particular blog late. What I like about it is that the major contenders seem to be women, and this is as it should be. That said, a great deal of the pro life crowd is MALE.
Regular posters to these blogs have read of my journey from Pro life to Pro choice.
I must post again though that SO MANY on the “pro life” side seem to be concerned with life only up to birth. Even now, many such folks in government (with the full support of their constituents) are advocating further and deeper cuts in Medicaid, and welfare. Last I knew, Kline was among that crowd.
Abortion is never going to go away. Now folks like Kline can try to make safe abortion illegal. But again, ABORTION IS NEVER GOING TO GO AWAY. The first best reason for this is that folks like Kline need it as an issue so they can get elected. Hell those such folks might even be successful. Then they can move on To strapping women in gurneys and forcing them to gestate, or perhaps imprisoning women for having illegal abortions. They will always have a crusade and a mob that supports them.
The only way you do away with abortion is to EMBRACE IT and see it as the result of deep faults in our society. I know where of I speak on this, I used to be on the other side.
First: men should have no voice in abortion whatsoever. I well know the predjudices that men hold in this matter. The only exception should be that the proven father of a pregnancy should be consulted. If he is willing and financially able to pay all medical bills for the gestation (and society allotted resources can play a role in this) then this and his full compensation for the mother should allow him a voice.
Second: If this is to be a society that proclaims itself “pro life” then medical care, housing, and nutrition MUST be mandated for every child and paid for by the society as a whole. Protestations of the “right” notwithstanding, “God” does not provide these things. I know I’ve lived it.
Third, As “trapping the man” has been a long employed strategy for women, men should have the right to refusal of parental obligations. This does not mean that the father in a pregnancy has veto rights to it, but rather that he be allowed to excuse himself from the financial burden, given that society at large (or at least some segment of it) sees the birth as necessary.
Sorry JR, I’m a man and I have a lot to say about abortion. It’s ludicris for you to say that men shouldn’t have a say about it. In fact, it’s extremely stupid. Give it up already.
“The only way you do away with abortion is to EMBRACE IT and see it as the result of deep faults in our society. I know where of I speak on this, I used to be on the other side.”
Wow, where did you get lost?
“Regular posters to these blogs have read of my journey from Pro life to Pro choice.”
Yeah, I read your pathetic little story. Yeah right, your experience made you an expert on the topic.
The truth is, you’re a godless person, an atheist and atheists just need to be ignored by all rational people.
I am a man. I don’t agree completely with abortion, but I have come to the a decision that abortions WILL happen, whether it is legal or not. Personally, were I a woman seeking to end a pregnacy, I’d rather have the option of a medically safe procedure coupled with spiritual therapy that would help me accept the consequences of my action, either way. I have known too many women going through too many back-alley botched abortions to have the stomach for imposing it to other people. I have chosen to support legal and safe abortions, but I have also supported the means to make this traumatic events as rare as humanly possible. I believe that this is the MOST rational thing to do. And as for my being accused to be an atheist, well, guess what? MY GOD IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!
By forcing a woman to have a baby that she can neither afford to grow or afford to care for is ruining a life. Destroying not just one life, but all the other children that ARE ALREADY ALIVE.
I’ve had my whole life to deal with my issues and i’m way past them. I’m just a statistic.
There are hundreds, probably thousands of woman who are out there right now with situations that make mine look like childs play. They are the ones who need people to judge not based solely on their own experiences.
If you want to end the need for abortion work on ending poverty. Work on the society issues like child incest and rape.
Stop making the women victims again and again.
Roo, I’m not refering to you in my post – unless you are JR.
hmmm… ghost in the machine?
Sum1,I agree wholeheartedly with you. I stand by my conviction that abortions should be legal AND safe, yet the real fight is in working to lower the number as far as possible, without resorting to coercion. If that means empowering women when it comes to their sexual health, so be it. Don’t lecture them when they want to fill the prescription for the Pill. Teach comprehensive sex-ed, so young adults are better prepared when they choose to engage in sex. Be serious when it comes to sexual crimes and child support, not just a slap in the hands like current laws seem to do. Remove the social stigmas of being a rape victim.
Abortion is not THE genocide as many may claim. The real genocide is the one currently waged on the poorest of our society, too poor to own any chunks of the “ownership society.” Or do we wait until we split into the upper-class Eloi and the down-trodden Morlocks?
Damoon-How do I justify being a pro-choice Christian, and the “no murder” stance. Fundamentally, I have read the whole book and not just pro-life proof verses. 1) I believe that God created and sustains life, that said, I don’t believe God pushes sperm into eggs. I believe that free will does give humans some control over reproduction. I don’t believe that conception (no more or less biologically alive than sperm and eggs) equals personhood. I don’t believe God chooses which conceptions implant and which fail. I don’t believe that God cherishes a 16 cell zygote over the life and flourishing of a woman. I don’t believe that the way we are created in the image of God is by having human genes. I don’t believe that heaven is strewn with all the failed conceptions of all time because zygotes have tiny human souls. 2) The Bible does not deal with abortion. I could go into more detail about why other pro-life citations are taken way out of context, but I won’t. I believe a strong Biblical case can be made for “breath of life” as the defining moment of becoming truly alive as a human in the Bible. 3) “Thou shall not murder” is hard to take as a moral absolute placed as it is in the Old Testament, where there are numerous God ordained murders of women and children (innocents?). It also seems misapplied given that I don’t believe conception equals ensoulment (the genetic material is human (adj.), but that does not make the zygote a human (n.)). But, then, there is Christ. The key with Christ is he takes people where they are, and His response is love not law. As a Christian, I respect and cherish my and other women’s right to make our own moral decisions. As a Christian, I do believe in taking women where they are and helping them through a difficult decision where ever that path leads them. Having read the whole book, I do not believe that the Bible warrants a round condemnation of abortion above all other concerns.Gertie- You are entitled to your opinion about percentages of women that feel certain ways about abortion. But, that is after all only a (strongly biased) opinion. The APA did a longitudinal study that didn’t find evidence of post abortion syndrome. If 21 million women have had abortions and PAS had substantial psychological effects, it would overwhelm Project Rachel in a second and the psychological and psychiatric communities would have to notice. Your anecdotal opinion may be highly biased because women that are having emotional difficulties post abortion are probably more likely to talk about it than women who have accepted it (not rationalized it). Damoon’s case of the 5 month saline injection abortion is highly unusual. I can understand how that would be traumatic. But, the vast majority of abortions are before 5 months or a woman can detect fetal movements (4 months). Five month pregancies are usually done for major fetal abnormalities. Giving birth to a live Trisomy 13 baby is a traumatic experience too. Don’t judge the majority with extreme horror stories.
Actaully Allie, back in the 70’s “the extreme horror stories” weren’t that unusual. Abortion procedures have evolved and changed since those days (some, like partial birth abortion, are just as barbaric) but it still deprives another human of their only time in existance.
Have a happy Halloween everyone!!!
Damoon-Thank God we have come to a place where early, safe abortions are the norm. So, why do 1970’s horror stories have a place in a modern debate? Not to scare us into anti-abortion or to assume by extension that other women are traumatized by abortion. They only support having accessible, safe, early abortions so that women who don’t have to wait until they are further along to get a Mexican abortion.As far as denying a chance for life, so does contraception. Without it, a unique sperm/egg combo would get to be born.
Happy Reformation Day to you!
I think partial birth abortion is today’s horror story, so it guess it has a place in the debate.If a sperm is left alone, and an egg is left alone, nothing happens. If a fertilized human egg is left alone in the womb, it develops into a human, so I really don’t see the logic in your arguement. It’s OK Allie, rationalization by the prochoice side is just a part of your denial of what abortion really is.I guess I could respect your opinions more if you all were more honest about the reality of abortion. I think the only thing we can agree on is that in order to keep women from seeking back alley abortions, abortion has to be legal.
JR, I don’t think I could ever “embrace” abortion, but I do agree it is the result of what’s wrong with our society and that’s where the focus needs to be.As far as a man not having to take responsibility for a child he fathers, if you don’t want to be responsible, then KEEP YOUR PANTS ON, or else just masterbate, it’s a great form of self expression (pun intended).
Damoon,Partial Birth abortion is used in less than 1% of abortions, often for health of mother/ major deformity cases, which are traumatic in and of themselves. You are using it as a red herring.
You use rationalization to mean that anyone who doesn’t think (reason) the way you do must be denying the truth (as defined as your opinion). I know we have been over this before. I can defend my position that a zygote, embryo, or fetus is not an independent person who deserves “their shot at life.” I can tell you why your definition of life is not as meaningful as you think to the debate. But, you don’t accept it. Therefore, you call it rationalization because your “truth” is the truth. That is fine; you calling it rationalization is just an ad hominem attack because you can’t convince me that your definition is right. You basically are saying that you don’t respect my opinions because they don’t agree to your opinions. That’s outstanding reasoning skills there.Re: sperm and egg. My debate was on contraception. If you take your view, then anything leading up to birth must be granted to allow a “chance at life.” Without contraception, 1/4 of sex at ovulation resulting in unique sperm/egg combo. So, contraception prevents a “chance at life.” Sperm and eggs are biologically alive, too, you know, just like a zygote. Don’t they get their shot? Your suggestion is absolute abstinence unless intending to get pregnant? That is the only thing that leaves the egg and sperm sitting there by themselves in their respective gonads. Anything else interrupts a unique person’s shot at life, as defined by your reasoning.
So because partial birth abortion is done 1% of the time, do you think it isn’t taking the life of a child? You keep trying to invalidate my views by saying the situations I speak of don’t happen very often, but my only point is that they DO happen.What about a 5 month fetus? Is having an aborton at that stage denying life to a child? Never mind that it’s not done as often as a first trimester abortions, or that it would mostly happen if there was something seriously wrong with the fetus, or any other argument you could think up to downplay the fact that a woman can have an abortion at that stage for any reason whatsoever. Is that fetus not alive? Just answer the question, please.Why do you keep projecting your “logic” into my posts? You keep skirting the issue with your intellectualizing and going off subject in different directions. You keep twisting what I say in order to make it into something else.Life starts at conception, that is what I know. Believe it or not, there are geneticists, medical professionals, and scientists who would agree with me.When a woman has an abortion, a life is denied. I think abortion should remain legal, because it won’t stop if it’s outlawed and women will die seeking illegal abortions. I will always devote myself to helping women find alternatives when given the chance, because too many women I know have regretted having an abortion.”I can tell you why your definition of life is not as meaningful as you think to the debate, but you don’t accept it”You remind me of someone I saw once in a Woody Allen film. A man who declares to his fellow dinner guests “I didn’t create the universe, I merely explain it”. Question, do others find you as arrogant as I do?
Damoon,Answer – only if they have weak arguments or are intimidated because I am willing to think seriously and reason through my argument and theirs. Listen, I can’t help it if you are anti-intellectual but debates are intellectual activities. I don’t understand why you use intellectualism as an insult.
Your point is that you disapprove of all abortion but want to highlight late-term abortions because the fetus seems a lot more like a real person instead of a clump of cells. You prove my point that being a real human is more than being a zygote. I still think a 5 month fetus is not a “child.” So, the answer is no, I don’t believe that partial birth abortion or late term abortions are “taking the life of a child.” Happy?
I will say it as clearly as I can and use small words. I think that a fetus is biologically alive (as in respiring) and genetically human. Sperm and eggs are both biologically alive and genetically human, but not human persons. A culture of human cancer cells are biologically alive and genetically human. A culture of any human cells is biologically alive and genetically human, but not persons. You use “alive” as though it implies personhood, and it doesn’t. I do not think that abortion is killing a person. Human persons have a minimal level of biological independence (not just respiring, but capable of respiring and growing on their own) and are not contained entirely within the body of another person. When a baby is born, it becomes a human person. When it is a fetus inside a woman’s uterus, it is not a human person.
I’d like all bloggers here to scroll up to NoJo’s post of Oct 30. Go ahead, I’ll wait…..
Ok let’s review:
NoJo: “Sorry JR, I’m a man and I have a lot to say about abortion”
NoJo? You may be male but you clearly are NOT a man. And I invite you or any other blogger on your side to explain to me just where in your post you said ANYTHING about abortion…..aside from quoting my prior posts and attacking them. To argue against another merely by attacking their arguement sans any rebuttal or facts is …well LUDICROUS. No extra charge for the spelling lesson.
My previously posted story of my journey from “pro-lfe” to pro-choice was regarded quite highly at the time, and by both sides. I don’t remember you addressing that one either. Oh but that’s ok. It’s a lot easier to call my story “pathetic”.
Lastly ol’ NoJo says that “You’re a godless person and atheist, and atheists should be ignored by all rational people”.
WOW NOJO!!!!!! All in summary, What an INCREDIBLY persuasive arguement for your side! You said nothing to the topic. You insulted me. And in the end I am simply irrelevant ’cause I aint got God’s ear as you claim to have.
Now this abortion debate is a terrible drain on so many other much more relevant topics that desperately need addresing. I’d lke to do my part. I want to get a dialogue going. Now my first choice in this would be Damoon. But even though she managed a clever insult on me while admitting that I did have some arguement, that very fact makes me look elsewhere.
NoJoCo?
Let’s rock? I mean it. I want to know what makes someone like you tick. Now you can pray away at me and that’s fine. But you don’tget to use “God” as your whole arguement. You also need to tell ME YOUR story as opposed to telling me that I’m lost. Now I will be honest. I have every confidence that in a deep debate you are gonna come off pretty silly. I’d be lying if I didn’t say that I wasn’t aiming for that and fully expecting it to happen. But I think this could be a learning experience for the both of us, as well as all who care to watch. Are ‘ya game?
R J RimelWichita Ks
It’s easier to stand on the side of the curb and yell rude things to the women who are already victims, than it is to find solutions to the problems that make abortion necessary.
The Religious right dont’ want to even look at those answers, they just want to keep this topic going on an emotional button so they can keep people like Damoon and Mojo riled up and have their base to push their agendas.
Back to the topic. I’d say Kline has committed an abuse of the office, by focusing solely on abortion clinics, and using strong-arm tactics. Furthermore, he allows his position of authority to be used to advance the agenda of special-interest group. IMHO, not only is he a goon, he’s also a whore. The sad thing is that the ensuing debate has a tendency to cleave a wedge within the supporters of legal abortions, which often includes those who find abortions to be barbaric and horrific, to name a few, and works to promote the alternatives, yet accepts the fact that if outlawed, abortions will STILL continue, and most likely to be even more horrific and barbaric.
Alright JR,First, I do need to apologize for the personal insults. Abortion is a very hot button for me.
For you to say that men should have no say on the topic would be equivalent to me saying that you should have no say on what the president does because you have never been the president, or that you should have no say on (you fill in the blank) because you have never done such and such.
My thoughts on abortion:
My main problem regarding abortions is that ocurr for the sake of convenience or because it will be a hardship for the mother/family financially. Why punish a life for your own selfish reasons?
I honestly don’t care for abortions for any reason, but it is certainly understandable when someone is raped or if the mother’s life is at stake.
I don’t think there is much else to discuss about it. I find that pro-choice people often don’t want to deal with the core issue of the problem, but often want to shift attention to other diversions (you support war, you want the death penalty, you don’t support the child after they are born, blah, blah, blah).
I am a Christian, but won’t turn the other cheek when there is a great injustice ocurring. As you have seen, not everyone who oposes abortion is religious.
Where you and I differ is where we are spiritually. I guess that I shouldn’t expect you to understand the spiritual side of the matter – since you are a self-proclaimed athiest.
One of the things about Christianity is that we believe that Christ (God) communicates with us just as he did when he spoke face to face with His disciples. I say that because people say that we claim to speak for God or that we know what’s in God’s mind. I see people toiling and spinning their wheels in life because of their humanistic knowledge that does not come close to the One who created them.
FYI – I don’t go to abortions centers to protest – not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Allie, Obviously my use of the word “intellectualizing” is not what you think. You like words, look up what it means. I have no problem with people who are intellectual, just those who are a little too arrogant and full of themselves.
Sum1, my agenda is simply to get people to think about what abortion really is. I also actively support and help women find other alternatives. It is not my agenda to get it outlawed, I realize sometimes abortion is a necessity, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to lie to myself and deny that the fetus is human or say that it’s not alive, because it is. I’ve been a nurse for a long time and I’ve seen too much to deny that prenatal human life exists, and viability is no parameter. There are cases of babies being born at less than 6 months gestation who survived their premature birth.It seems to me that too many women like you and Allie are only willing to see it one way, and part of that is too dehumanize the preborn child, maybe to justify your stance on the issue. That’s an old coping mechanism, the Nazis did it with the Jews and the KKK did it with the blacks (Yes, I’m aware that’s an extreme example, but the point is the same).If you convince your self that a human is not human or that a human is subhuman, it makes it so much easier to devalue them and invalidate their right to exist. That’s the easy way out.I’ve been at this a long time, since the late 60’s before Roe vs. Wade, and I’ve looked at it from every angle possible (including your’s and Allie’s). My conclusion is that what I must do is be honest about what abortion is and try to help women who’d prefer to make a different choice. Like I said before, if I’m wrong, I’d rather err on the side of perserving life, not condoning or celebrating the distruction of it. I feel sad that some of you have such a hard time seeing my side of the issue, but that’s your problem, not mine.I’m very grateful that I have had the opportunity in my life to make a difference and partly because of my efforts, many babies have been given the gift of life who would otherwise have been aborted. Having made that commitment, I can live myself and my conscience is clear.
Main Entry: in·tel·lec·tu·al·izeFunction: transitive verbInflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing: to give rational form or content toYou give it a pegorative sense that the word doesn’t actually have.
I don’t think you can claim that I am one sided and you aren’t. Your claim about “dehumanizing” starts from your pre-ordained humanness of the fetus, so don’t tell me you aren’t being one-sided. I understand your position, and I respect your right to it. I think it has some logical flaws, you think mine is rationalization. Oh, and please don’t sensationalize it (even if you call it an extreme example). That’s just adding fuel to the fire or propaganda instead of dealing with the, admittedly, fundamental differences in our opinions.
pejorative, uggh, sorry
A much better reasoned post your last NoJo.
You post that your main difficulty with abortion is that it is done for conveneience, or economic circumstances.
If you have read me in the past, as you say you have, then you know I addressed that very thing. I called upon society to embrace abortion and in so doing work to make it legal, safe and rare. Now it is easy to simply have a problem with why abortion is occuring, it is something else again to actually do something about it.
Now NoJo, I do not have your faith. I do have some grasp on what I think its basic tenets are. Often I think I know and work to them better than most of the faithful. And though you casually dismiss the arguement from our side that the right seems to care only about the baby until it is born, you cannot honestly dispute that arguement. Facts are facts. The recognized party of “pro life” is also the party (with almost no exception) that wants to end all entitlement related spending. I don’t have to reel out the list, you already know it, and I dare speculate are fully on board with it. That said, it is possible that you in your faith or by your own acts work to facilitate the baby and mother beyond birth. I know that that is true of a great many on the pro-life side. (note no quotation marks) That is great!…. as far as it goes.
But economics and circumstance while far from being ably addressed by the faith or private sector while the main part of the problem, are not the issue in whole.
Beyond economic circumtance, which you call “convenience” are deeper issues.
You could TRY to make a woman have a baby she does not want. You could punish her if she acts against the birth of the baby. BUT YOU CANNOT make anyone be a parent.
Now adoption is a solution, to a small point. But the reality is that the pool of those wanting to adopt a baby has a very short and itemized idea as to what sort of baby they would adopt. The recently selected Chief Justice of the Supreme Court went all the way to South America to find his children of choice.
So what to do with the born but unwanted that remain?State parenthood? Not a great idea, and probably not in the fiscal agenda of those who advance smaller governement and government expenditures.
And so NoJo we are brought back to my original point. Abortion is never going away, never mind the reasons I cited above it is way to important a political football. Legislation IS however an answer. Work to make as best you can the life and well being of each and every BORN American. Atheist that I am I still think you’ll be doing the work of Jesus, at least as I understand it.
I’m already way too long here. But I guess I’d sumup this way; Don’t get so caught up the “Thou shalt nots” that you forget about the “Thou Shalts”