I’m sad that we’re at a place in America where torture is considered by some a legitimate tool against “terrorists” or any other of our enemies.
Vice President Dick Cheney reportedly has been pressuring Congress to include language in John McCain’s anti-torture provision that would exempt the CIA “if the president determines that such operations are vital to the protection of the United States or its citizens from terrorist attacks.”
This at the same time that White House press secretary Scott McClellan declared that the president’s position is “very clear: We do not condone torture, nor would he ever authorize the use of torture.” No, but he will wink and look the other way.
McCain, who was a victim of torture as a Vietnam prisoner of war, is rejecting the changes, saying that they would “basically allow the CIA to engage in torture.”
I’m all for aggressive interrogation techniques against our enemies. But my support stops well short of torture and murder (a new report says that 21 detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan have been murdered by their American captors).
Yes, I know — these are bad guys. This is the “real world.” But in the real world, endorsing torture puts our nation on the moral level of third-rate dictators like Saddam Hussein and opens our soldiers to the kind of cruel and degrading abuse that McCain suffered in Vietnam.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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40 Comments
When the Iraq war started and people talked about what a bad guy Saddam was.He imprisoned people without real charges and held them indefinitely without a trial.He tortured his critics.
We do both.
Does that make us better than Saddam, or just the same?
Does anyone remember why the US invaded Iraq? Oh yeah, something about “weapons of mass destruction”. Did we find any? Why are we still there? Oil? Bushnam continues.
I can’t believe we’ve come to the all time low where the people of the U.S. have to actually prod our government into not using torture.Arresting people all around the world, holding them indefinately without trial, etc.ALL IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM!
Why don’t we ever hear anything about the country where 9/11 actually came from? Saudi Arabia.Now we’re posturing to go in and trash Syria? Why is it always hands off when it comes to the Saudi royals? Is it because our royalty is in business with theirs?
Sane people are against torture.We need answers about what’s really going on!
Tracy
Saudi Arabia has always been on good terms with the United States.
Bin Laden was kicked out of the Kingdom, first when to Sudan then Afghanistan.
Israel wants Saudi Arabia left in tact as dropping bombs or a ground war would probably start a fire that nobody could put out.
The whole country is oil.
“We shut down the torture and rape rooms Saddam operated,” GW Bush.
Yup, and then we opened them under new management.
Big improvement–but at least now the innocent Iraqis that are getting tortured have the satisfaction of knowing they are getting tortured for DEMOCRACY.
(Sarcasm off)
Agreed, we’ll give the Iraqis freedom if we have to kill them to do it.I wish McCain would run for president.
Damoon,I would like to see McCain in also. However, the really ugly Bush chickens are going to come home to roost after 2008. Hate to wish that on anybody.
Having had to lobby in Washington, I can tell you from personal experience that, all his posturing aside, John McCain is just another PAC whore.If the Democratic ticket is Clinton/Obama, they will win…and, as usual, there’s nothing Kansas can do about it.
Folks,”We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”Remember those words? Please note that it says “all men,” not just Americans, not just Christians, not just white people! If we really believe those words, how can we condone Gitmo, our prisons in Iraq, our practice of sending people to third countries for interrogation. etc.! Come on! We’re better than that! Aren’t we?
OK, I’m confused. Is it the terrorist we are trying to defeat? Zionist? Socialist? Christians? Athiests?
If it is as simple as cutting the head of the snake and killing Osama, then Clinton had his chance and he blew it.
If it is Zionists, then I think there is history from the beginning of time (however you define time) that pretty much indicates that is a futile effort.
Same goes for Christians and Atheists. Socialists, on the other hand, are in decline.
ID,Did you every stop to think that Clinton may have taken to heart “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” when he decided not to detain Osama?
But, I guess Clinton wasn’t counting on Osama not having any regard for human life beyond his 72 virgins (or is it 74?).
ID just pick one, their all go for it!
ID,Actually, it’s the Democrats they want to defeat. That’s not just their focus, it’s their whole range of vision. Terrorism is just the vehicle they’re using.
Win14theGipr,Osama will get his when he get to Paradise, and finds out his 72 virgins have to stay virginal for eternity.
Jed,Sorry. Forgot to include Democrats and/or Republicans. If “They” are trying to defeat Democrats, the who are “We” trying to defeat?
The Republicans, of course.
RD you can’t spell. Must be hooked on phonics.
Tracy,I can’t spell, either. Blogging tolerance requested.
ID holds Clinton responsible for stuff five years ago and he doesn’t hold Bush responsible for ANYTHING that’s happened since 2001.
Yeah, that’s logical . . .
If eye spell lyke thu wurds sownd will u b ok with it?Eye thot sew.
It just chaps my skinny ass when someone’s trying to tell me I’m so wrong about something and they are so intelligent they never bothered to learn how to spell. They can remember every little detail about something they want to be right about, but can’t remember when to use there or their or they’re.
Not ID or RD or any particular person, just in general.
Jed and Galahad,Pity. Thought it would take more posts to ferret out the real truth. Now “we” know. Had Clinton taken care of Osama when he had the chance, there may not have been 9/11. We would have had ~3,300 more human beings from all across the world living today, instead of 2,000 and growing brave men and women trying to save the next 3,000+. Economy even better than it is today. No Iraq war. Terrorists would have known the free world would not tolerate their extremism. But they detected a weak amoral society (all parties included) that would not defend itself, and attacked.So, as you spend your energy and resources to defeat Republicans instead of terrorists, remember that you and your family are alive today because of those who are focusing on the real enemies of terrorism. And it is NOT a Republican, a Democrat, a Christian, an atheist, a Jew, a Muslim, a black, a white, an Asian, Bush, Clinton…The group that threatens your way of life is the extremist murdering terrorists hiding behind the Muslim religion!!! Every minute you waste on blasting any Republican that comes along is a minute you have given the terrorists a chance to advance their agenda. Terrorists are not stupid. They know how to play into the hands of people like you, and to your credit “they” have been difficult to defeat.
ID, it’s kind of hard to know what the world would have been like, but I’ve got a feeling that someone close to OBL would have stepped up and taken his place.I agree with most of the rest of your post. Just blasting all Republicans ain’t necessarily the best policy. Some of them are moderate and reasonable. That’s true for most groups.P.S. Great job spelling.I do remember the Wichita school teacher who got on here and blasted everyone, but couldn’t spell shit without 2 t’s and an R!
posted by Jed:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”Remember those words? Please note that it says “all men,” not just Americans, not just Christians, not just white people! If we really believe those words, how can we condone Gitmo, our prisons in Iraq, our practice of sending people to third countries for interrogation. etc.! Come on! We’re better than that! Aren’t we?
1. It DOES only apply to americans. That fine document was forged from ….gasp….war! we threw off our oppressors at the cost of a few more than 2000 lives
Our land of liberty is a privledge fought and paid for by citizens and soldiers
2. Did your hatred for people who have faith in God blind you to that word Creator? A creator endowed these rights, not the government, not the UN….God endowed these rights.
spanking your child does not make you equivalent to an abuser
torture to maintain YOUR individual power is wrong and immoral, torture to guarntee freedom and safety to generations of people is right and justified
you people who wring your hands about gitmo and abu-ghraib are deeply cynical and generally don’t believe in america. you already see us as low as our enimies, your bitternerss permeates every bit of your speech, it is evident to all. It’s probably because you know the evil that lurks in your heart, unchecked by a lack of faith in God and you can’t possibly think that anyone could have self-less motivation.
Our nation has never kept one square ft of soil it has fought for in the name of liberty. We turn it over to the people to run
OH! So that’s what Lady Liberty stands for?
Our nation has never kept one square ft of soil it has fought for in the name of liberty. We turn it over to the people to run?
Tell that to the American Indians, and they still remember the Trail of Tears!
You still can’t spell.
It’ll be a sad day if we ever get to the place where we condone torture for anybody. It goes against our principals as a nation and puts the lie to everything we’ve ever stood for vis a vis human rights. We’ve always set the standard. Poor form for the Vice President to be suggesting we give any American institution permission to torture prisoners. It doesn’t bode well for our troops in future conflicts where they may be taken prisoner.
I seem to remember an awful lot of “Wag the dog” chants when Clinton cruise missiled the Sudan. The American people were not behind any sort of military action, even after the embassy bombings (they weren’t Americans..so who cares, right?) no one wanted to do anything about it. The 93 bombers of the WTC were sent to trial and convicted, that’s more than Bush can say.
And anyone that honestly thinks there would have been no Iraq war if Osama would have been caught, obviously never read the PNAC documents.
DR–
You’re a parody of yourself.
Substitute “communist” with “terrorist” and everything you wrote would sound like a page out of Joe McCarthy’s witch hunt and the HUAAC of the 1950’s.
Get a grip. Criticising Republicans isn’t anti-American. NOT CRITICISING THEM when they do stupid un-American things (like torture) is.
“We cannot defend liberty abroad and abandon it at home.” Edward R. Murrow
Thanks, Nikki. Exactly right.
Who was b*tching and moaning about airstrikes against Al Qaeda to get the heat off the Monica affair?
Bloviating right-wing hate radio.
Who was calling for an EXIT STRATEGY and a TIME TABLE to get troops out of Kosovo?
One George W. Bush, Govenor of Texas.
BTW, DR, I believe in God. I go to church, you self-righteous ass.
My Jesus is the one that said, “blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.”
Try reading the Bible for once. There’s not a lot of support for invading countries that haven’t attacked us because they “might.”
Correction: my first post was addressed to ID, not DR, though it probably goes for him too . . .
I’m torn between blasting ID or Win14thegipr. They are both uneducated morons. When did Clinton have OBL detained? Clinton tried but was unable to capture him. Kind of like he is today. And critizing bush helps the terrorist? What freaking right wing nutjob did you hear that from? Hmmm…Rush? You two need to get yourselves a clue. And stop watching Fox.
Before the Bush administration took office, the Army’s interrogation procedures — which were unclassified — established this simple and sensible test: No technique should be used that, if used by an enemy on an American, would be regarded as a violation of U.S. or international law.
Please explain why, in the early days after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the Bush White House cut by nearly two-thirds an emergency request for counterterrorism funds by the FBI.
After al Qaeda declared war on the US in 1998, Clinton signed warrants for the CIA to assasinate bin Laden and his lieutenants. He was using the predator for surveilence on him AND he commanded 3 attacks against al Qaeda… 2 of which were cancelled for logistics (fear of retribution) reasons. THe one that DID come off, was called WAG THE DOG by the REPUBLICAN CONGRESS. One of the first things Bush did after taking office in 2001 was call off the predator. Why?
“OK, I’m confused. Is it the terrorist we are trying to defeat? Zionist? Socialist? Christians? Athiests?”the question posed by ID.
“ID just pick one, their all go for it!”
The answer that I gave.
My grammar is off in that this sentence should have read, “ID, just pick one, they are all going for it!”.
I could have meant, “their all good for it.”.
But the spelling is correct, just not the grammar or past and persent tense.
It was a quick comment and meant to be a satire. It does occur even in some well thought out post, that I do not catch all my mistakes.As I will simple type out my thoughts then go back and edited.
LoL, Spelling is one of my shortcomings, to the point that I have seven different dictionarieson the desk where the computer is located.
I take it that your comment was direction toward me. As often I have been refered to as RD. But if it was directed toward ID or I have noticed there is someone who’s screen name is RD. If that is the case or if the comment was directed toward me. I do not mind having my mistake pointed out.
k,And you believe the MSM pukes, since they are 75% registered Democrats. BTW, k, I listen to NPR driving to/from work (a very liberal media outlet funded in part by my taxes), the MSM (liberal media), FOX and yes, Rush (when I can break away during lunch). I doubt you watch FOX or listen to Rush. Sorry if you feel competition from media outlets that are countering the liberal spin. Your choice is to continue to listen to the liberal spin, OR listen to both and research fact for yourself. Since you are used to being fed fish instead of taught to catch fish, I doubt you have the will to analyze and filter information for yourself.
“As I will simple type out my thoughts then go back and edited”
There is the case in point, I missed “simple” while proof reading. I meant “simply”, sorry for the mistake. Eye will try two dew better in the future.LoL
ID & RD,
While you are criticising Clinton, you are helping Al Qaeda lay their plans to attack America.
Stupid, isn’t it.
Now substitute “Bush” for “Clinton.”
Equally stupid.
ID,what would it take for you to get a clue? In all of your post the only thing you did was say you watch FOX and listen to Rush (like that is supposed to impress us). And then you make stupid assumptions about where I get my news. For your information I don’t watch news, TV is crap. I read news papers and news websites (including FOX but not MSN). I’m very impress you listen to NPR, want a cookie? BTW, how you get your news is meaningless if you don’t have the brain power to process the information. I choose to get my news from serveral places to limit any bias. And I then do my homework and try to find the facts, something I doubt you do despite your boast. Using typical right wing tactics of insults and misdirection to shift the attention away from the questions at hand is not going to help you. You still didn’t answer either of the questions I asked. Ignore them and maybe they’ll go away. But since you’re so well educated and smart look up your facts and tell me:1. When did Clinton have OBL detained or have the opportunity to kill him? (That is a 100% probability that he would have been dead.)2. And precisely how does criticizing Bush help the terrorists?Now there will have to be verifiable facts to back up your answer and if the facts are truly there you wouldn’t mind sighting a couple of reputable sources (rush blowhard and sean havingtroublewiththetruth don’t count)?
HEY DON’T KNOCK THE NEWS! WE OWN THAT TOO!
G.W.
Hey, the Republican committee has declared that NPR, according to their own study, IS already FAIR & BALANCED, contrary to their own expectation. FOX News on the other hands, only serves news worthy only to their fellow canines.