There is a new cottage industry of sorts: Training volunteer guides at science museums on how to handle visitors who aggressively — and sometimes belligerently — challenge the theory of evolution, The New York Times reported.
Such confrontations are growing increasingly common, including in Kansas. Guides at the Sternberg Museum of Natural History in Hays regularly face patrons angry that the museum’s exhibits use evolution to explain the history of dinosaurs and fossils, the Lawrence Journal-World reported.
Warren D. Allmon, who directs the Paleontological Research Institution, an affiliate of Cornell University in New York, tells guides to emphasize that science museums live by the rules of science and that they seek answers in nature, not the supernatural, to questions about nature. Explanations are tested by experiment and observation in the material world and are capable of being overturned when better answers are discovered. Such rules — and the consensus opinions of mainstream science — should also be the basis for setting our state’s science standards.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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32 Comments
Very reasonably stated.
Unfortunately, that’s the problem. Young earthers and end timers reject reason, or more exactly, they reject reason unless they can use it to lend credence to their already preconcieved conclusion–the correctness of the creation myth in Genesis for instance.
Science starts with evidence and works toward a conclusion that explains the evidence. The American Taliban start with the conclusion and reject any evidence that refutes their “conclusion” and grasp any straw, no matter how specious, that supports their “conclusion.”
There’s no arguing with them. They have rejected the basis of argumentation. There’s only power. Who’s going to wield it? Us or the barbarians?
Well said, Galahad.
It’s also always a “revelation” (excuse the choice of words) to talk to Christian fundamentalists about their fundamentalism. What you always find is that they treat the Bible as literal UNTIL they run into a section that will ultimately lead to the Bible showing itself to be in error or leading one to absurd conclusions..in which case that section becomes “allegorical”.
As Miguel de Unamuno points out, “Those who believe that they believe in God, but without passion in their hearts, without anguish in mind, WITHOUT UNCERTAINTY, WITHOUT DOUBT, without an element of despair even in their consolation, believe in the God idea, not God himself.
Heh, yup, Brian.
I love the way fundamentalist foam at the mouth about homosexuality and pre-martial sex, but are strangely quiet on the equally heinous sin of divorce.
No, no picking and choosing there.
Nevermind, that half the congregation IS divorced and practically NONE of the congregation is gay, so that’s a totally safe target to excoriate and fulminate against.
No, no picking and choosing. They just read their Bible . . .
I must agree with Galahad (twice in a week!). Those extremists have their “beliefs” with absolutely nothing to prove it. And, because they “believe” they expect everyone else to believe the same way.Sad the way freedom to exercise religion has developed into a “my way or go to hell” exercise.
I still think the Flying Spaghetti Monster makes as much sense as anything else. There is as much proof of the FSM (somebody wrote it down) as any other “religious” belief.
Galahad,I just love it when they try to explain away The Song of Solomon. They can turn themselves into remarkable pretzels on that one!
Check this out Jed:http://www.thesongofsolomon.com/AboutOverview.asp
NoJoCo,That one’s actually pretty good. The explanation I had in mind was the one where SoS was just a metaphor for God’s love of the church!
There is hope for rational thought. The following is from cnn.com today (9-23)
Eleven parents of students at a Pennsylvania high school are suing over the school district’s decision to include “intelligent design” — an alternative to evolution that involves a God-like creator — in the curriculum of ninth-grade biology classes.
Will be interesting to see the outcome. Appears that we are not alone in the extremist revival surge.
My my, will some extremist christian see the evil written here and pluck their eyes out?
Sing to “God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen”
1. God rest ye, Fundamentalists, Let nothing you dismay! Remember that there is no proof There was a Christmas Day For Christmas really started as A pagan holiday.
Oh, glad tidings of reason and fact, Reason and fact.Glad tidings of reason and fact.
2. No wise men traveled from the East, The journey’s far too long. There were no shepherds in the fields, The time of year’s all wrong; We don’t believe in angels; That rules out the angels’ song (chorus)
Brian, Brian, Brian…very cleaver, but don’t feed the fire. They think all Evolutionists are Athiests and you are just giving them fuel.Take the higher ground.
jana,
You don’t have to be an atheist to understand that the New Testament wasn’t written by anyone who personally knew Jesus , nor was it written as a true historical account of the events that occurred so long ago. The Gospels are proclamation documents. They were written to grab the reader’s attention, to make the case that Jesus was someone special, someone who was close to God. They are replete with symbolism that a Jew of the period would “get”. That symbolism was lost over the centuries and is only now being rediscovered. Jesus never died to save us, he lived to accomplish that. If Christians would forget the orthodoxy and move towards the orthopraxy of the message we’d all be better off.
You are right. Jesus didn’t die to save us…he was murdered.Also…he was probably a Buddhist.
What I meant earlier is that in the argument for Evolution, we should try really heard to keep religion out of it. By insulting them, you just incite them. But I do think that it is good to know their position to better debate with them.
I have had a couple of conversations with my professors about their lack of response to the situation in Kansas. They think they don’t have to defend evolution because it is logical, but I think they are wrong. The opposition is very illogical. The lack of response from the scientific community, here in Kansas, in the political arena, may have a negative effect on a generation of students.
Sigh……..so the right wing nuts are now invading museums and accosting guides (who are mostly volunteers) with religious diatribe.
Now personally, I’d like to encourage these guides to carry with them a small supply of nuts. When accosted by some fundamentalist activist, I would have them hand the offender a handful of nuts. To the fudametlists query to such a response, I would have the guide say “Well now you have a handfull of nuts, welcome to my world!”
Ah but a more politically correct response for these guides would be. “I’m sorry you aren’t enjoying the educational experience we try to provide here. I am just a volunteer at a venue you chose to attend. Clearly you are not enjoying the experience, can I help you to the exit?”
I wonder why one the creation science think tanks doesn’t take the step of opening a creatrion science museum of “supernatural history”. The exhibits could include a representation of Cain, Abel and Seth heading over to the nearby Neanderthal tribe to date some Neanderthal women. There could be a replica of the ark constructed to scale for holding dinosaurs, sabre toothed cats, mammoths, and all other species that have ever existed, plus the food they’d all need for 40 days. There would have to be some sort of astronomical display showing the earth as unmoving at the center of the solar system. The piece de resistance could be a scene from the Gospels showing Jesus being questioned by the pharisees – you know, those basically good Jews who had so misread the law that they put ritual, purity, cleanliness, and exclusivity ahead of compassion and love for all. Jesus could be saying
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.” (Mt 23:13-15)
Where are the Creationists on this thread? Are they growing tired of the debate? I want one of them to explain how the dinosaurs and different variations of human fit into their beliefs, especially if they believe the earth is only 7,000 yrs. old.
Why is it so hard to believe that God created the world through whatever manner He chose to do so? There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is a God and that His word is truth. I believe that God created the world with intricate scientific details — dinosaurs, etc. One day to God may have been millions of years — or one day. I guess I’ll just have to ask Him someday. Sorry, but some of the rest of you may not be as fortunate.
Christian…it isn’t that hard to believe that evolution is God’s method of creation. The question of if, what and who God is, and what His intentions are, is NOT science. It is philosophy or religion. Scientific investigation does not work toward a “known” such as the book of Genesis. Science is a fluid entity, open to changes…religion isn’t.
As for some of us being “unfortunate”, you must remember that it is not up to YOU to judge. I think the biggest sin any man/woman has is the lack of humility. An ancient book that has been changed for political reasons for the last 1800 years is not God’s true word. It is not a tool to be used to pass judgment on anyone.
Jana — Point taken. I DID sound judgmental, and that truly was not the intent. I just have a hard time understanding how so many obviously intelligent people can be so narrow minded when it comes to having FAITH. People of faith are often looked upon as the ones who are narrow-minded, but I guess I see things differently.
For a better understanding of WHO God is, I would suggest you read “Embracing the Love of God,” by Dr. James Bryan Smith.
Christian,
Remember that this conversation began with the observation that Christian fundamentalists are verbally harassing museum personnel over common descent and the theory of evolution. They prefer to think that the creation narratives in Genesis are literally and infallibly true.
First off, the concept of a God or divine essence is an hypothesis. It cannot be established as true a priori. Just because an hypthesis cannot be established as true does not mean it is false, however. In fact all of modern science and mathematics are based on unprovable hypotheses. The “proof” that the hypotheses upon which mathematics and science are founded are “correct” is the fact that we are able to predict how the world will behave and use these predictions to understand ever more profound aspects of nature.
Here’s the problem with all religions. The hypotheses upon which they are founded – the religions’ theologies in other words – have proven to lead to terrible explanations for the observed behavior of the world. And their exclusivities of viewpoint have just led to conflicts among the various sects, all of which are unwilling to concede any of their talking points in favor of another’s.
If scientists found that the hypotheses upon which they based their predictions led to terrible predictions, they would go back and adjust the hypotheses. Religions, however, try to maintain these terrible hypotheses and warp the world to fit them.
Einstein, as with many subjects, had this one sewn up too. He said:
“The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms – this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”
And…”The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity.”
To be truly spiritual means GIVING UP the old, preconceived theologies which have proven to be dismal failures, and instead turning in awe to the world as it really is and seeing in this world the true nature of the divine spark.
Brian, you mentioned that the purpose of this original post was to tell us what some Christian fundamentalists have been doing at museums. While I don’t know which group is doing this, I would venture to say that it is probably the Fred Phelps bunch at work again. PLEASE DO NOT ASSOCIATE TRUE CHRISTIANS WITH THIS GROUP OR ANY OTHER GROUP OF HARRASSERS!!!
Please also note that in your very long-winded post, you said that “Here’s the problem with all religions. The hypotheses upon which they are founded – the religions’ theologies in other words – have proven to lead to terrible explanations for the observed behavior of the world.”
Could you please give some examples of how “all religions” fall into this category?
In your search for your own truth, I hope that you will someday come to realize that people of faith are not stupid and we are not all hypocrites. Many of us have a very real faith in a very real God. Again, I would suggest you read “Embracing the love of God,” by Dr. James Bryan Smith
Christian,
Sigh..you appear to be another one who reads the words but doesn’t comprehend them. As you said, I said “SOME CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS” (emphasis added). This clearly means NOT ALL Christian fundamentalists…nor does it mean all Christians. You are trying to find conflict here where there is none.
Sure, here are your examples. Christian and Muslim fundamentalists believe that they are in possession of divinely inspired, infallible texts written by God. How do they know this? The texts tell them so. This is called circular logic. Second it is abundantly clear that Islam and Christianity are sufficiently different that God certainly did not present them both (or potentially either) as truth. Finally, both texy=ts suffer from theologies that clearly violate the facts that we know about lots of events. Certainly the age of the universe and the development of life are good examples. But here are some others…there is no evidence..none, nada, nil…that Herod ever ordered the execution of male children. There are no independent historical documents, there are no extra male child graves in the Jerusalem area of that time..nothing. Other religions suffer from the same exclusive “we have the right God, you don’t attitude”, but since you think I’m too long-winded, I won’t bore you with more facts.
Finally, I never called anyone of faith “stupid”. What I said was that religions need to constantltre-examine what they preach in light of how the universe really is rather than attempting constantly to keep their dogmas the same and bend the facts to fit the dogma. I’d suggest you go look at the westar Institute website and the Jesus Seminar to see how many Christians are trying to reformulate the meaning of tghe Bible and Christ’s life in a manner which doesn’t strain credulity..luike the dogma that God was so pissed off at mankind that he REQUIRED the blood murder of an innocent victim to make Him happy again.
That was posted by me, by the way..For some reason my salutationto you ended up in my name line. While I’m here, let me correct some errors in the last paragraph.
Finally, I never called anyone of faith “stupid”. What I said was that religions need to constantly re-examine what they preach in light of how the universe really is rather than attempting constantly to keep their dogmas the same and bend the facts to fit the dogma. I’d suggest you go look at the westar Institute website and the Jesus Seminar to see how many Christians are trying to reformulate the meaning of tghe Bible and Christ’s life in a manner which doesn’t strain credulity..luike the dogma that God was so pissed off at mankind that he REQUIRED the blood sacrifice of an innocent victim to make Him happy again.
Christian, why are you posting to yourself?
Damoon — I was not posting to myself. It was Brian. Didn’t you read his last post?
Brian — I think you are the pot calling the kettle black when you say that I am trying to find conflict where there is none. That one — I must admit — made me chuckle!Anyway, although you clearly did not SAY that you think all Christians are “stupid,” you have definitely tried to prove to me that you know more than I do (by using quotes, etc.) Again, I will simply state my case — that my faith is in a real God. I have experienced true joy in my life because of my faith. My faith in Jesus Christ is what makes me the person I am. It is my faith that helps me be the best person I can be every day. My goal in life is not to prove to others that I am RIGHT — believe me — I know I have a lot to learn when it comes to theology and philosophy. My goal in life is simply to show the love of Christ by whatever means God chooses to use me.
Brian — you also use the word “fundamentalist” a lot. Are you an “atheist” fundamentalist?
Christian,
I’m glad that you’re happy in your faith. However, maybe it would be good for you to review the Roman Cathbolic Church’s beef with Galileo..how they came out of that badly mauled. How, after Origin of the Species, the Church found no conflict between common descent and Christian theology..this in the mid 1870’s.
So while your faith in Jesus is admirable and I’m glad it has brought you peace and comfort, that doesn’t make everything you’ve been brought up to believe correct. In fact, faith has no business putting it’s nose into science..where it never has belonged. Religions should accept logic, intellect, and everytrhing that comes with them as gifts from God, not slander them as in error, plain wrong, or even worse, attempts by Satan to draw us away from God.
Brian — I will refer to my original comment on this post. I personally have no problem believing that God created it all and that science is all part of His creation. I believe that science can truly explain many things — and there are other things that we are possibly not meant to know.
If the Bible were to describe in full detail every answer to every mystery concerning God and who He is, people would still choose to believe it or not believe it. God has given us all the ability to find Him. Some just have to search for scientific answers before they can do it.
http://www.probe.org
Scroll down the left side to the Articles section. There are a number of articles listed there concerning Faith and Science.
Have a nice evening.
http://www.talkorigins.org
back atcha.
Great post, Christian. It’s refreshing to see someone with your faith who respects the opinions and beliefs of others.