The editorial board has had lively and sometimes heated discussions about whether women should fight in combat. Most thought they should be able to if they passed the same qualifying tests as men.
I am sympathetic to the idea, but think the issues involved are more complicated than “women can do the same jobs as men” formulations.
I still have serious qualms about the cultural and physical challenges faced by women in close combat. Is the nation really ready to send 18-year-old girls and potential mothers into brutal hand-to-hand combat, or to see them blown to pieces or maimed by roadside bombs? Or tortured and raped?
And what about unit discipline? The distractions of sexual tension and rivalry would be inevitable.
With American women dying in Iraq, the nation is overdue for a thorough debate of the issue.
We want to put this out for blog discussion: What do you think?
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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36 Comments
I am reminded of the statement made by a British woman who had survived the blitz- “Women have had the right to die in wars since the beginning of time. Shouldn’t we also have the right to fight to defend ourselves?”
I have no idea what roles women fill in the armed forces right now. It seems like they serve a variety of positions as compared to previous times. Is there a major movement to get women into direct combat?
If you’re qualified for the position, be it front line or support, you be allowed to take part in that capacity. You don’t fight an effective war with the 2nd string in place.
Is sending a potential mother somehow worse than sending a potential father? Why fret over sending and 18 year-old girl and not over an 18 year-old boy? Why are all of these arguements based on the assumption that females are more valueable than males?
Everyone should meet the same standards and be faced with the same risks.
Yes… women should be on the front lines as men. They get paid the same, even though their bootcamp tests are not the same as the mens (pet peave of mine).
Others have made very valid points…. It’s ok for a potential father to die, but not a potential mother?
I agree with other posts. Why is it ok for an 18 year old man/father/ to die and not a 18 year old woman/mother? In this day, equality is high priority. I believe if a draft is re-instituted, all 18 year olds should be drafted, regardless of sex. Fair is fair and discrimination based on sex is not tolerated in society anymore. Right?
Rather than “man” or “woman” or “future mother” or “future” father”, let’s define this as “person”. Until we acknowledge that by preventing women from serving in combat roles we devalue both genders (women, because they are presumed to be incapable of serving in that role; men, because their lives are presumed to be of less value and so are expendable), we will not make any progress.
As far as the “sexual tension” argument … Men and women work together in a great many situations in civilian life already, and when non-combat units are in training exercises soldiers of the opposite sex already share quarters. Is anyone seriously going to suggest that adults are incapable of controlling their own reactions and responses to other people? (Granted, the avalanche of sexual assault reports from women serving in Iraq and by female cadets at the Air Force Academy does beg the question on if we are actually training men as soldiers or as petty thugs.)
Well after 368 days of Combat - please let me say that having my back covered by a girl would not in and of itself be a problem - as long as I felt she was qualified. Having said that, and not trying to sound like a redneck chauvinist, there were very few if any “girls” I knew at 18 that I would be willing to trust with my life regarding their ability to (a) operate an M-16 Rifle and or (b) stay awake for their 4 hours in the middle of the night so I could sleep. That about sums up the “basic” requirement for combat in my book.
I think the value of women in the strong-arm role was pretty well settled when the Atlanta prisoner overwhelmed his female guard and shot the judge with the guard’s gun.
The value of women in the nurturing role was shown by the woman hostage who calmed him down and made him ready to surrender.
But let’s not talk about differences that are part of the foundation of natural law, it might upset the agendas of misguided feminists.
Oh well, women used to be seen as inviolable. Now we are thought of as being merely abortionable sex objects. Why not also become expendable? It’s an undeniable trend.I feel so empowered!
Let’s face it, throughout history, men have been less than stellar when it comes to taking responsibility for raising and supporting the children they so willingly help produce. Then along comes equal rights (yeah!) and many more women join the work force, but still take on most of the responsibility for raising kids and making a home. Now we’re expected to fight in wars STARTED BY MEN? Excuse me, but we’ve cleaned up after you’re sorry butts long enough. When you all are willing to share ALL the resposibility at here at home, then we’ll talk about a woman’s military commitment to her country!
I see that someone is playing the broad generalization and stereotyping game.
So glad the blog monitor Nathan is back to dismiss points of view.
Isn’t Damoon cute when she’s mad?
Wow…. all I can say is Wow!!
I am going to guess that Damoon has had some poor quality men in her life. Why? Because I am a divorced father of 2 teenage girls, that I have custody of. Hmmm… amazing that a man can get custody of 2 teenage girls over a woman who was making $80k a year.
As for cleaning up after men… I personally don’t need anyone to clean up after me. It was quite the other way around with my ex. She was the pig. But now I have someone that knows how to share in housework.
Sorry that you have such a low opinion of men!
Gee Bohica, but that is a little too much information regarding your personal life.
No… didn’t share too much. Just stating that men are being stereotyped.
Just as in all things, there are bad apples in every culture, that ruin it for the good ones out there.
Bohica, you must be the very rare exception to the rule! So is my son in law. In my half century of existance, mostly what I’ve seen are men who want to be endlessly patted on the back when they do something most women just consider routine. It’s not that I don’t have “high quality” men in my life, it’s just thats the way 90% of you are and you know it! Women should not be expected to fight in combat, we already work outside the home, raise and nurture the children, and take care of most of the household responsibilities, why the heck should we have to do everything?
PS I don’t hate men, I’m just being honest about them.
Damoon…Talking to my wife who is over the 1/2 century mark herself (I’m 14 years younger), she feels if a woman joins the military, then they should be on the front line. She feels that there are a lot of women out there that can out shoot men.
As for men that don’t do anything… I agree there are bums out there. But the same can be said about women too. There are bad apples in every bunch. My wife’s father raised 3 daughters and a son all back in the 1950’s.
Heck, I get in trouble by my wife if I try to do laundry. She’s already yelled at me tonight for trying to fold laundry.And I cook too… which she loves that!! And even better yet… I do windows!
I suppose I would be out on a limb asking for any evidence to back up that 90% figure from Damoon?
Perhaps 90% of the men you have dealt with are that way, but that is not a reality for the rest of the men.
These types of stereotypes and broad generalizations are what continue to lead the division between men and women.
Nathan, there has been a division between men and women since the beginning of time, most men just don’t pay enough attention to realize it. My 90% figure is a guess, it’s probably higher than that.Bohica, your wife is probably right, I’m a darn good shot myself and it might be sort of cathartic to have the opportunity to shoot at a bunch of men! I love you guys, but you all have messed the world up since cavemen were beating each other over the head with clubs. Just watching the way you love to fight on this blog shows your true nature. It’s more about “winning” than understanding.Women don’t belong in combat, war goes against our nature. Woman talk tough, but I doubt that most of us could live with ourselves knowing we’d killed some mother’s son (or daughter) in combat. Most men, however, love to brag about their killing adventures in war, they just detach by convincing themselves that the enemy is a target, not a person. Leave the important things to women, as long as men start the wars, men should fight them.
Men don’t start wars… politicians start wars. And politicians are not men… they are pigs!!
Was watching “The Postman” last weekend. Kevin Costner said something along the lines of “Don’t you wish wars were settled by the a@@holes who started them”?
Governments start the wars… and then expect the military to fight them… however, when the military commanders need to do something, the politicians won’t let them, or give them what they need to complete the job.My feeling is this: If the government wants the military to do the fighting, then let them do it… quit sticking your noses into it…
If the military commanders got what they wanted/needed, the Iraq war would have been done with quite awhile ago. As a matter of fact, it probably never would have been if Bush Sr. would have let Schwartskopf go into Bagdhad like he wanted to.
Damoon,
I am sorry that you cant seem to get over this sexist attitude of men you have.
Bohica, well said!
Thanks Alex!!
When I was in Okinawa, I didn’t do much but read. And I read about historical stuff.
Let’s look at some of our past encounters:
WWII - Patton wanted to go all the way to Moscow. Truman stopped him.
Korea - McArthur told the President (Truman) that the Chinese were involved, and he wanted to blwo the bridges coming in from China.
Vietnam - Too many politician in that one. Let alone, Westmoreland couldn’t find his own ass with both hands.
Iraq (1991) - Schwartz (however you spell his name) wanted to go into Bagdhad. Sr. said No!
Mogidishu - The powers that be in Washington refused to give the commander what he needed to get his men out. Cost of many lives.
Nathan, if believing that women don’t need to be in combat makes me a sexist, than so be it. Now, go make someone else’s bed, do somebody’s dishes, go cook a meal for someone other than yourself, and always put everyone else’s needs ahead of your own. “There is none so blind and he who will not see”.
Damoon,
It is not the women in combat that makes me say you are sexist.
It is the combination of things you have said about a woman president and all of your blatant stereotyping and generalization of men here.
Since you think for some reason that I dont cook meals for anyone other than myself, I do.
Unfortunately I dont have anyone elses bed to make, so I dont.
I do everyones dishes, everywhere I go, at least half of the time…
You could say that my parents have taught me well. They might even be someone you know :)
HA! You left out the part about always putting other’s needs ahead of your own! CAUGHT YA!!! But, seriously, I know your parents did a great job, you’re a good kid. Maybe being around a wide variety of males has made me somewhat cynical. I know a lot more “deadbeat” dads than “deadbeat” moms. When it comes to taking responsibility, a lot of men don’t. Kids growing up with out their fathers is a serious problem in this country, but that’s a whole different subject. I still don’t believe that women belong in combat, we take enough responsibility for everything already.PS I know your dad is a great guy and good father, you’re very lucky.
Damoon,
I agree that there are many awful guys out there.
I just dont think it is anywhere near 90% nor so cut and dry of a generalization of all men.
Then again, I spend a majority of my time with Christian men who are really great guys.
As far as the “always put everyone else’s needs ahead of your own” statement:
I think it is not only impossible, but unhealthy to do that.
I think there is a balance between loving others and doing good for them and still taking care of yourself too.
I want you to know that I am a very argumentative person, something else I got from my father, but nothing here is personal. I might seem a bit “forward” with my opinions, but I really mean no harm.
Talk to you later and thanks for letting us use your boat!
Gawd, I would love to have women in my foxhole with me, bitchin’ about the weather, the bugs, the food, the stench of war, the noise. Waitin’ for men to dig the hole for ‘em. Always happy to let the men lead the patrols. Unable to pull me back to safety if I get hit. Run outta ammo — lipstick and tampons in their ammo belt.
Stereotypes? Maybe, but I ain’t gambling my life on chickenhawk feminism’s idea of equal opportunity warfare.
Hey Damoon,If there’s anything I’ve learned, it’s that stupidity cuts across all ethnic, class, educational, religious and gender lines. So does intelligence. Also, if you go into any situation with the expectation of finding something, you most likely will, whether it’s there or not! Ease up a tad.
Hey Semper,Don’t be too quick to judge- I’ve known a few women that could take you apart with a rusty razor, and some of ‘em were MP’s! Celtic women fought alongside their men, and scared holy shit out of the Romans! Besides, just because the person sharing you foxhole is a guy doesn’t make him great fighter or friend. You take what you get and make do!
Hey Semper,Don’t be too quick to judge- I’ve known a few women that could take you apart with a rusty razor, and some of ‘em were MP’s! Celtic women fought alongside their men, and scared holy shit out of the Romans! Besides, just because the person sharing you foxhole is a guy doesn’t make him great fighter or friend. You take what you get and make do!
Jed, I agree. Make a special forces unit out of menopausal, middle age women and give them guns, it could scare even the most dedicated terrorist!
i ame with you all. i think that women should be able to go in combat if they would like to fight for us.
The bitterest part of me says yes. Why should young men be killed and horribly maimed while young women roam free and enjoy the benefits of education and the ability to earn as much money as a man. The bitterest part of me does not understand this contradiction that women are equal but somehow unequal to men.
The biggest take of our century is the pepetual idea of the working woman. Women belong in the home. All people should have had freedom of choice since day one. A woman should be allowed to work if she wishes but her emphasis should be on looking after a man and her family.
No women do not belong in combat what a ridiculous notion. Most belong in the home, caring for children and maintaing the vital social and moral fabric that holds our society together. A fabric that is eroding and decaying everyday.Let the majority of women do what they were born to do. They are emotional, people orientated creatures.
The only liberation I see is the liberation from joy, duty and true hapiness to a life of exploitation and servitude. Women are part of the most exploited and underpaid professions in society. End this madness get the women out of these jobs and into married life - at whatever stage, be it a student or a middle aged middle manager and get them out of warfare.