Just when it seemed that the USA Patriot Act might get a thorough reassessment before being reauthorized by Congress, the London attacks occurred and gave the provisions a new urgency. That is probably why the House voted 257-171 last week to renew the act. There were some changes aimed at more civil liberties oversight. But even the controversial “library clause” would remain, though it would have to be reauthorized in 10 years. That deadline, longer than the four years favored in a Senate committee, carries the chilling message that the nation’s leaders now view four years as likely insufficient to win the war on terrorism. Guess this really is the new normal.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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77 Comments
Indeed, the chilling message from the House of Representatives is that it contains 257 members who have committed Treason against the United States of America. And that only 171 loyal Americans still remain.
The fact that those 257 members voted to have the Federal Government spy on the reading habits of Americans in America’s libraries and worse is the “line in the sand” crossed.
The time has come for loyal Americans to build gallows in every district where members voted to destroy America’s highest principle of freedom. Without quarter those bodies hanged should be allowed to twist slowly in the wind for a time as a stark reminder for those who come after that the principles of the Constitution of the United States of America shall not be heretofore violated.
Now Ed, you know that you make silly posts like that early in the morning before you take your meds!
Goodbye civil liberties. Hello Facism.
I see that Ed is wearing his lucky tin foil hat this morning.
I have not seen my freedom disappear since the P-Act was enacted.
I go about my business, buy and read books, talk freely on the telephone with my friends about politics, and e-mail and post on blogs. I doubt big brother is watching.
Why not just tear up that little thing called the constitution and go for total anarchy. Doesn’t say much for our elected officials in Washington does it?
I’m not for hanging anybody, but I think the we are getting closer to being what George Orwell describes in 1984. The place to fix this, if you don’t agree with it, is the ballot box. Not the gallows.
I’ve seen the time when the difference between the two parties was minor. Neither side was disloyal, greedy yes, but not disloyal. The Jews were all communists, but did not represent a major threat. Joe McCarthy finally flushed them all out, so they became the far left-wing of the democratic party, still communists, but then calling themselves liberal democrats. Still, a pain in the ass for the democrats, but no real threat to America, or our constitution.
Time has now bloated Government bureaucracies at all four levels, Federal, State, County, and local. This has become so swollen as to become a major voting block, and in itself is a real threat by raising taxes to the point where both members of the American family have to work in order to support Government workers. Government workers do not create wealth and require being supported.
The Israelis are now the swing vote and place a majority vote in both houses of congress. The ballot box can no longer protect the Constitution. The American People no longer control their Government. The Israelis invented “terrorism” and have successfully used that farce to capture the Federal Government.
The full effect of the Patriot Act has not yet reached its intended result, but, as it is easy to observe, this country is acting in a way to satisfy Israel, not the better interests of the United States or the world. You all are just now beginning to slightly wake-up, as polls indicate. Good Morning!
Amazing! We are at war with radical Muslim fundementalists that still consider Spain ‘Muslim territory’ even though they were kicked out in the 1400s. They have been attacking us overseas for over four decades that I know. Hijacking ships and planes, blowing up women and children. Blowing up our servicemen overseas. And now, even though president Bush told us from the get-go that it was going to be a long war, Ronda thinks a ten year extension of the ‘library clause’ is a ‘chilling message’. Ronda acts suprised!
And speaking of the ‘libray clause’, what part of “public” in public library do you not understand? It is a fact that the terrorists have used the computers in the public libraries to communicate with each other. OK, for those of you that just skim these posts for key words, let me repeat. IT IS A FACT THAT TERRORISTS HAVE USED THE COMPUTERS IN PUBLIC LIBRARIES TO COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER. Ok, did you get the keys word here? COMMUNICATE IN PUBLIC?
I’m pulling for ya,
Hank
“Terrorism” stops when Israel is contained behind the Green-Line minus atomic weapons. And the West Bank is returned {under international law} to the Palestinians, thus creating a viable Palestinian State. Then Hank need not worry about libraries, and the ambitions of Ariel Sharon’s Likud Party in ruling the world become history.
ECHELON is recording every key I stroke, every call I make or receive, every piece of mail sent or received, which proves that we need new members of Government who will make laws prohibiting that to happen.
And a President smart enough to stop the “terrorism” thing. Not keep throwing gasoline on it. It’s easy to solve.
Hank,Do you know what a PUBLIC TOILET is? Because we call it a PUBLIC TOILET, does that give the government the right to pry into what we’re doing in the PUBLIC TOILET?
Hank, I think I just shot your argument full of holes (again).
Hugs and Kisses,
Hammer
If you read the Constitution it’s easy to see that the founding fathers knew that Government was a dangerous, greedy, power-lusting thing and wrote all the protection into the document they could think of to see that that wouldn’t happen. Governments, by nature seek power. The Constitution tries to block all attempts by using checks and balances. They also expect the people to keep a watchful eye to insure Government behaves itself. We have failed that duty. Now, we either fix it or have another revolution. The “Pork-Bill” congress just signed was three feet high, but most of you don’t either know that or don’t care. Once freedom is lost, it is very difficult to regain. Ask the Russians. It took them 80 years to throw off communism. How long will it take us to rid ourselves of Israeli ambitions?
Dearest Hammer,
Try to focus son. There are a lot of things that you can do in the privacy of your own home that you can’t do in a public toilet.
When you are in PUBLIC there is no presumption of privacy. When you are in PUBLIC there is no search warrant required if evidence of a crime is obvious.
Since you are constantly hung up on rectums and toilet issues let me give you an example.
If you own a PRIVATE swimming pool it is legal for you to pee in it. However, it is illegal for you to stand on the ten meter board at the PUBLIC pool and pee in it.
Keep your hugs and kisses for the Twister, you scare me.
Henry to you
You know Hank, I really don’t care if you want to throw away your rights, but I kind of have to draw the line when you want to throw mine away, too. Spying on you in the library is only the first step. The Repugs will sooner of later want to know what you’re doing in the bedroom. It’s just your nature.
Hank, I have nothing interesting im my records, but at some point, I’d like to have a judge involved if someone wants to nose around in them.
Punches and Groin-kicks (you didn’t like hugs and kisses),
Hammer
Ok Hammer, Let’s try one more time.
PUBLIC LIBRARY
Buy your own damn books if you don’t want the government to know what you read!
Henry to you
Hammer, Hank is the enemy. He can not be reasoned with, so save your good points for someone reasonable. Many are reading now and will be checking in with you soon enough. They will need your sound arguments, good advice, and help. Fire as your guns come to bear. Best, Ed
Ya got a good point, Ed. I know Hank’s the enemy (and an Idiot), but he make’s good target practice, clear the guns, so to speak. I’ll save the guns for a better target.
Sec’ry Rumsfilled said that he doubted that the invasion of Iraq would last 6 months, “more like 6 weeks,” he said.
FACT–we invaded in March of 2003. We have been in Iraq for 2 and one half years, we’ve lost nearly 1800 soldiers, and no exit plan has been presented to the American people.
Ass’t Sec’ry Paul Wolfowitz claimed that our invasion would cost just a “1 or 2 billion dollars” and we would be greeted as liberators with flowers and candy.
FACT–We were greeted as what we are–an invading army. We lose one or two soldiers every day. We spend 1 to 2 billion every week.
Bush and Powell and Cheney claimed that Saddam had stockpiled massive quantities of “botulism toxin, tons of mustard and sarin gas, chemical agents, etc. etc.”
FACT–After searching for over a year, the president’s own search team concluded that Iraq possessed no weapons of mass destruction, exactly what the UN team was saying on the ground before we invaded.
How many times do you have to get lied to before you figure out who the liars are?
How many times do you have to get hit over the head before you figure out who’s hitting you?
Dear Hammer,
I give, Ed’s on your side.
Hank
Antares, I think the part that really galls me is the needless loss of life to feed the arrogance of this president. Who will be the last soldier to die in this fiasco?Anybody who thinks we’re going to come out of this as winners is deluded. It’s Viet Nam all over again. I just wonder how long it will take for our “Warlords” to figure out we’re in the kind of war we can’t win.
It’s not about guns and bombs, people! We’re not going to win this based on how many people we “blow away”, unless we do the “Kill em all and let God sort them out” senario.
Hammer, Maned and at the ready.
Antares, It occurs to me that if we took the money we’re spending on the war (5-6 billion per month) we could buy off the whole damn Middle-East in a couple of years. What if we took that money and built roads, hospitals, factories, and housing? Better to build than to bomb.
Um, Hank. Bookstores are on the list. Before we know it, you Repugs will be burning books, too.Oops, you’re already doing that, aren’t you.
Bang Bang,Hank.
President George Bush was busy smirking at a press conference the other night, bragging that he had taken the fight to the terrorist in Iraq. In other words, we’re all safe because the terrorists are tied down fighting us in Iraq. After Thursday, it seems they didn’t stay there. This time it was the U.K. We could be next and if we are, we collectively earned it. We insulted people’s culture, imprisoned their entire nation, and played God with their politics. We tortured and humiliated individuals from the middle-east. This was a recipe for disaster and it’s about time we learned our lesson.Prime Minister Tony Blair is nothing more than Bush’s lap dog. Many British people already know this, but as with our own country, organized opposition is confined being outside the government. There is no credible opposition to the Blair government today. Unfortunately, while our overconfident issolateda and protected U.S. president smirks on TV about his ability to rain war on other people’s countries, the innocent people of Britain have paid for this policy, some with their lives, other scared for life.An ancient proverb: Whack a hornet’s nest with a stick- you will get stung!
Pay cash, use Ed’s name.
Hank
Hammer! You have a point! They said the cost to conduct the Vietnam War was so great that we literally could have totally rebuilt that entire country with a great road/rail/and port system along with building a good well built home for each family in that country. You talk about hearts and minds? Instead we bomb the living crap out of them and defoliated the country with Agent Orange.
Only draw back! There would be some lost jobs back in the USA in military production and ammunition plants. The industral military complex loves a war. They would sell arms to both sides if they could get away with it.
It’s alright to let Iraq have a civil war. We had one that cost 500,000 lives. The wrong side won, but that’s another story.
The only problem with the civil war in Iraq is that it gets not what Ariel Sharon wants, so let’s listen to all Bushy- Boy’s reasons, all except the real one.
The one that you’re not allowed to talk about. The one about the elephant standing in the living room, unnoticed.
http://csmonitor.com/2005/0725/dailyUpdate.html
Dear Antares,
There’s an old saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not there own facts.
Rumsfield was wrong, the invasion of Iraq and capture of Bagdad was less than 6 weeks. We are not fighting the ‘government of Iraq’ nor invading Iraq. We are helping the interim government train their own forces and protecting them until they write and vote on their constitution. The invasion was a sucess.
Wolfowicz was pretty accurate about the cost of the invasion. The Iraqi people for the most part consider us liberators and in private are very appreciative. In public they have to be wary.
Bush, Powell, Cheney, Clinton, Kerry and all of the major intelligence agencies agreed about the existence of WMD. Just because they haven’t been found doesn’t mean they didn’t exist.
It isn’t a lie if you believe it when you say it.
Sorry,
Hank
Sharon ordered Bush to give India bigger, better nukes as Israel has already sold our most sophisticated radar to India last year. { Janes weapons }
The War against Iran has already started.
CIA and Mossad agents are inside Iran now, trying to organize dissidents, as Rumsfeld is building airbases just to the north of Iran. Permanent bases in Iraq are looking straight at Iran.
Dig down deep into your pockets America, as Sharon has only begun to spend your money.
Israel wants it all, from the Nile to the Euphrates.
India has been promised Kashmir as a bonus for helping to threaten Pakistan to back-down in trying to help Iran to defend itself, as the US pours weapons into India.{ through Israel, of course, as a profit is made }
India tested the water today by shooting and killing 3 Pakistan teenage boys, wounding a fourth, for straying from a wedding celebration in disputed Kashmir, the same old Sharon Trademark. As the Israeli dog and pony show hits the road.
This could not be a worst time to have a jerk in the White House.
This is cute: AIPAC is bragging that Congress gave them 2.5 billion in military aid. { and would like you to thank your congress person } But here’s how it works: The Pentagon sends Israel weapons then sends Israel a bill. Israel gives the Pentagon a credit against that 2.5 billion. Then Israel sells the weapons, pockets the money and the cycle continues. { Israel is the largest exporter of weapons in the world } Now I happen to think that that is creative and also cute. Yeah, baby.{ suckers }
Durn, Hank swiped my meds.
And there went my Tin-Hat. There went my luck. The girls told me I looked good in that Hat. That’s all, just the Hat.
Goodness, Hank is quoting Rumsfeld. Now Hank’s the new Manchurian Candidate. Gimme back my lucky tinfoil Hat.
Wasn’t me that swiped your meds Ed. I can’t use a supository that big. Check with Hammer.
Hank
Er ye go………..Our guys war
Rudyard KiplingWhen you’re quartered safe out ‘ere,An’ you’re sent to penny-fights an’ Aldershot it;But if it comes to slaughterYou will do your work on water,An’ you’ll lick the bloomin’ boots of ‘im that’s got it.Now in Injia’s sunny clime,Where I used to spend my timeA-servin’ of ‘Er Majesty the Queen,Of all them black-faced crewThe finest man I knewWas our regimental bhisti, Gunga Din.It was “Din! Din! Din!You limping lump o’ brick-dust, Gunga Din!Hi! slippy hitherao!Water, get it! Panee lao!You squidgy-nosed old idol, Gunga Din!”The uniform ‘e woreWas nothin’ much before,An’ rather less than ‘arf o’ that be’ind,For a twisty piece o’ ragAn’ a goatskin water-bagWas all the field-equipment ‘e could find.When the sweatin’ troop-train layIn a sidin’ through the day,Where the ‘eat would make your bloomin’ eyebrows crawl,We shouted “Harry By!”Till our throats were bricky-dry,Then we wopped ‘im ’cause ‘e couldn’t serve us all.It was “Din! Din! Din!You ‘eathen, where the mischief ‘ave you been?You put some juldee in it,Or I’ll marrow you this minute,If you don’t fill up my helmet, Gunga Din!”‘E would dot an’ carry oneTill the longest day was done,An’ ‘e didn’t seem to know the use o’ fear.If we charged or broke or cut,You could bet your bloomin’ nut,’E'd be waitin’ fifty paces right flank rear.With ‘is mussick on ‘is back,’E would skip with our attack,An’ watch us till the bugles made “Retire.”An’ for all ‘is dirty ‘ide,’E was white, clear white, insideWhen ‘e went to tend the wounded under fire!It was “Din! Din! Din!”With the bullets kickin’ dust-spots on the green.When the cartridges ran out,You could ‘ear the front-files shout:”Hi! ammunition-mules an’ Gunga Din!”I sha’n't forgit the nightWhen I dropped be’ind the fightWith a bullet where my belt-plate should ‘a’ been.I was chokin’ mad with thirst,An’ the man that spied me firstWas our good old grinnin’, gruntin’ Gunga Din.’E lifted up my ‘ead,An’ ‘e plugged me where I bled,An’ ‘e guv me ‘arf-a-pint o’ water—green;It was crawlin’ an’ it stunk,But of all the drinks I’ve drunk,I’m gratefullest to one from Gunga Din.It was “Din! Din! Din!’Ere’s a beggar with a bullet through ‘is spleen;’E’s chawin’ up the ground an’ ‘e’s kickin’ all around:For Gawd’s sake, git the water, Gunga Din!”‘E carried me awayTo where a dooli lay,An’ a bullet come an’ drilled the beggar clean.’E put me safe inside,An’ just before ‘e died:”I ‘ope you liked your drink,” sez Gunga Din.So I’ll meet ‘im later onIn the place where ‘e is gone—Where it’s always double drill and no canteen;’E'll be squattin’ on the coalsGivin’ drink to pore damned souls,An’ I’ll get a swig in Hell from Gunga Din!Din! Din! Din!You Lazarushian-leather Gunga Din!Tho’ I’ve belted you an’ flayed you,By the livin’ Gawd that made you,You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
Joe Williams,I think a pay-off would have made a lot more sense than a war. And it’s the Capitalist way (and I have no problem with Capitalism). For what we’ve spent on the Iraq war in treasure and lives, we could have done this a lot cheaper and not killed near as many people. We either could have bought Saddam, or paid someone to kill him. For a couple Billion, I’d have killed him myself. But seriously, we could have done a lot of things that didn’t include starting a war. The “Old WindBag” says the Iraqis love us in secret. I doubt that. No matter what, we’re going to get kicked out, and the government that’s left is going to hate us. It’s hard to convince people, in this case Iraqis, that we’re their friends when we’re killing them. We’ve been pretty indescriminate about that.The Republican PollyAnnas think we’re Liberators. To the Iraqis, we’re an invading army; an occupation force. I don’t know about you, but if some foriegn power came in, jailed Bush (regieme change), and occupied this country, Me and my guns would be in the hills looking for trouble, regardless of what a rat’s behind I think Bush is. Why do we expect the Iraqis to act any different?
The Repugs call them “insergents” and “Terrorists”, but if you’re an Iraqi, they’re “guerillas” and “freedom fighters”.
It’s going to be very hard to convince Iraq that we’re their friends after we’ve killed tens of thousands of them. We could have avoided all of this if we’d thrown around some serious cash. Saddam was a bad man? BS! We didn’t think he was a bad man when Rummy was playing kissy-face with him in the ’80s. I believe that was when he was gassing his own people and we were giving him the recipe for chemical and bio weapons. We should have given him a condo in Cali and paid the sucker off!
I think we seriously “screwed the pooch”.
Must admit, the libs ridiculous arguments are amusing today.
Name the person who has had his rights violated thanks to the feds going thru his library records. Name him.
Are all you libs so environmentally concious that you don’t fly in commercial aircraft? Bet you do. Do you submit to your bags being checked and walking thru a metal detector? Bet you do that, too.
Let us see if you can grasp a basic concept. Technically, because we have an IRS, the IRS COULD confiscate every nickel you earn (well, that Republicans earn).
Because we give the government the power to set up, say, stop signs….taking your slippery slope argument to its logical conclusion the government COULD set up stop signs every 10 feet, or 5 feet or one foot. BUT THE GOVERNMENT DOESN’T, does it?
This concept of government intervention, like the Patriot Act up to a point should be easy enough for even a liberal to understand. Get it? Got it? Good.
Yeah, Chamerlin had a white piece of paper of peace he waved from Mr. Hitler. They don’t come down on you all at once. They always start slow. You don’t die right away when you’ve been shot. You bleed-out slowly.
Jimmy Bisoni, somehow I doubt if you spend much time at the libary.
Didn’t think you could name anyone. Punk.
Named you, didn’t I, Prick.
Hank–I agree. Since we “won,” we can now leave, right?
Hey Hank, At least my suppository isn’t a part-time Interior Decorator. Yuck, yuck….Ed
Antares,
Did you miss the part about providing support and training for the new interim government untill they can protect themselves?
Then we will leave.
We still have troops in Japan and Germany and we “won” WWII over 50 years ago…
Snidely, kindly get a real argument or go home.
Yeah, Nathan, I missed that part.
How long did it take the Marines to train you . . . two and one half years?
There was no “exit plan” from Iraq because we’re not leaving. We’re building something like two dozen permanent bases so we can keep our thumb on the oil supply and protect Israel.
How many times do you have to get Bushed, before you don’t get Bushed again?
Oh, and Germany and Japan have great living standards because they let us protect them for fifty years.
But really, that’s a daft argument. Neither of those countries engaged in the on-going guerrilla war that we’re seeing in Iraq.
Americans didn’t fear for their lives in Germany or Japan two years after those countries fell.
A really desperate argument, isn’t it? I mean, you’re grasping at straws now.
Jimmy, looks like I got a real argument. Or are you faking?
I hardly think the American people are going to stand still for 50 years of occupation in Iraq. Comparing the situation in Iraq to Japan or Germany is comparing apples to handgrenades. We’ll leave and when we leave, we’ll leave a country in shambles.
I’m more optimitic than most people. Iraq doesn’t hate America at all. Just the terrorist do.
I saw this documentary about how the average people on the street of Iraq think about America, and you will be surprised. Although not all of them said all goods things, the majority loved us and thanked us for overthrowing Saddam.
http://www.voicesofiraq.com/
No! It was not done by a Right Wing Organization. It’s just the truth coming from Iraq, not what Liberals think is going on there.
Joe, I checked your link and read past the film. Did you check the producers? The film was produced by an L.A. film company and the producers are Americans. Joe, do you trust Hollywood? I’m a Leftie, and I don’t trust Hollywood.
I read several Iraqi and Iranian blogs. I think I get some perspective that way. Some are anti-American; some aren’t. Joe, if you want to know what Iraqis think, go check these out. I promise you won’t be dissapointed.
This is one of the bad ones:http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat_mukhtara/arabic/0305/jaysh_mojahdin_200305.htm
This one is excellent. I’ve been following Raed since the war started:http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/
This is sad, but it’ll give you an idea what kind of misery we’ve brought the Iraqi people:http://afamilyinbaghdad.blogspot.com/
This one’s not very complimentary either:http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Read them with an open mind and see what you think. After all, they’re Iraqis, they should know what’s going on.
Still waiting for the name of the person who has been thrown in the Big House due to his reading habits in public libraries. Surely you libs aren’t ranting and raving over, well, nothing.
Three reasons we are in Iraq: 1) after 9/11 we wanted to get out of Saudi Arabia (suicide bombers use this tactic because it tends to work – especially on democracies – see _Dying to Win_ by Robert A. Pape); 2) if we abandoned our bases in Saudi with Saddam in power, we feared he would be pretty tempted to go after Saudi oil – which would have created a world oil crisis; 3) In 2002 there was an estimated 112.5 billion barrels of oil in Iraq (11% of the world’s supply).http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2002/12heart.htmAt $50 a barrel that translates into $5.6 trillion. It is good quality oil to boot.
I have a brother-in-law and a cousin in the military stationed in Afghanistan and Irag respectively. I hate to think about either of them losing their lives in these conflicts, but the truth is (as I see it) we don’t have a good alternative to staying in Iraq and stabilizing that country and training them until they can defend themselves.
As I have posted before, George H.W. Bush did not invade Iraq when we had them on the run for a reason – I think he knew the post-war situation would be an utter mess. He looks like a smart president now and it is too bad his fruit fell so far from the tree.
Well Hammer! Thanks for the blog links. What is amazing that average Iraqi’s can get on a computer, on the Internet, and speak their mind.
Steven, I read your link. That’s an eye-opener!
Hi Jimmy Bisoni!I helped expose nathan for what he is, or rather what he is not. I exposed “kindly” ol d Hank the vet for what he is and watched him melt down.Now it’s YOUR turn Jim.You want a story about how the patriot act has taken liberty away at the library? I got one for you from personal experience.I fish Jim. I wanted to go to the library to look at topographical maps of the Lake Cheney area to aid in knowing structure of the lake bottom. This was 2 years ago. I was told on my request that these materials were restricted and that I would have to sign a registration form to view them. The librarian advised me that I might be better off not signing that form. I had to agree.So you see Jim the “patriot act” does affect innocent folks right here in Kansas.I am not afraid of terrorists. I am afraid of those who use a few terrorists attacks to foster fear and surrender of liberty.The sick beauty of the “war on terror” is that it is a war where the casualties can be held to an acceptable level, where the nation itself is not under threat, where the enemy has no true face, base or place of operation or interest and where the very prosecution of the war creates a perpetual stream of new recruits to the enemy ranks. These conditions are the perfect ingredients for the “attacked nation” (Us) to drift in righteous indignation toward fascism.
“The only thing we have to fear is, fear itself. Nameless unjustified terror.”Frankin Delano Roosevelt
OH NO! *GASP*
Poor little JR had to fill out a form to look at a map?
Even if your story was true, who cares?
You went to a public library to look at public materials.
[Que music]
It’s the end of the world as we know it…
It’s the end of the world as we know it…
LOL
Have you contacted your ACLU rep yet?
Nathan,What an intelligent and well thought out response. You and Hank sound more and more alike every day.
JR: I hear what you’re selling, but I’m not buying. Those that oppose the Patriot Act aren’t arguing that they’re being “inconvenienced” but that their civil liberties have been eliminated. I don’t like being wanded when I go thru a metal detector at an airport. It’s an inconvenience, but my rights have hardly been violated. Neither have yours.
Dear JR
“The only thing we have to fear is, fear itself. Nameless unjustified terror.”
Frankin Delano Roosevelt
Now, I wonder, am I the only one that sees the irony of a quote like this from a man that is so paranoid that he won’t look at a map in a public library?
And you call me kinky?
You’re kidding, right JR? Tell me you’re kidding!
Hank (kinky old melted down vet to you)
Just a point to be made, would we have the Patriot Act and a war in Iraq if that country were not an oil ladened area. Remember you have two oil pimps in the White House.
Hey JUSTA GUY
Probably not, what’s your point?
Hank
Thank you for your kind words Hammer.
The point is Hank, the war is not about the Iraqi people, but oil for the oil pimps buddies at the cost of the American taxpayer and American lives.
Dear JUSTA GUY,
Here’s a little tidbit of info for you. The free flow of oil is a requirement for our national defense. Our economy is dependent on the free flow of oil.
In the modern world we live in, cutting off a nation’s oil supply is an act of war. Every president that we have had for the last one hundred years has understood that fact.
Thank God for George Bush!
Hank
Hammer, I was going to sneak down to the library and make a copy of the constitution, but they’d get me for sure. So instead, I’ll just go ahead and get the rest of the blueprints for my atomic bomb.
Ed
Why don’t you stuff them in your socks like Sandy Berger did ?
Be sure and wear your tin foil hat.
Joe Williams,I’m surprised they even have the infrastructure to maintain any kind of internet, although I suspect much like phone service, they depend a lot on wireless. Still, it’s always interesting to see how the Iraqis themselves feel. The first link is by some people we’re going to have to kill, I think. But the others are by just plain people. Raed has always been pro-American, but he’s not as supportive as he used to be.
Thanks for taking the time to read.
The Mossad blew-up the London Tube, then tried to blame Pakistan. Usually the Jewish State is smart enough to plant some proof first, but some “berg” screwed-up and forgot. Pakistan is now off the hook. Oh well, everybody is wise to “terrorism” anyway, so the “beanie-cap” that forgot shouldn’t lose his job. Nobody is perfect, not even the “chosen ones.”
Yeah, they “loved us” in Vietnam too. Trouble is the South Vietnamese leaders loved our money more than they loved freeing their people.
The wealthy socked our “development aid” away and then moved to Lichtenstein as soon as we bailed.
But that won’t happen in Iraq because . . . they have such great leaders?
The defeat in Iraq has the inevitablity of Greek tragedy because our gung-ho “patriots” refuse to see the inexorable consequence of trying to solve a political problem with a military solution.
Ladies and gentlemen? I give you the 3 stooges! nathan ,hank and joe!
Nathan, who can’t quite define what the meaning of “is a marine” is.
Hank, who went from respected poster to suspected poser! We hope Hank does not slobber too much on his keyboard! His posts grow more amusing and enlightening by the day!
And the newest member of the troop JOE!Hi Joe! I know alot about people like you. Now I bet you have a gun Joe. And I bet also that anytime a national registry for firearms owners is mentioned, you get all righteously indignated. And maybe you should. After all the right of anyone (including potential terrorists) to purchase and own without record a firearm is way less dangerous than keeping track of folks who want to check out a book or look at a map. Forget the folks with guns and bombs! It’s the people who read that we need to watch! People who speak out against “the leader” (bush), we gotta watch them too! After all we are “at war” and “if you are not with us you are against us!” But it’s “hard work” and we are “gonna smoke ‘em out”
“It would be so much easier if I were a dictator”G. Bush( I may not have accurately quoted that last but he did say words to that effect)
But as ever, back to the subject. Jimmy? You are in dangerous company. Look at your allies. You seem to post intelligently. Of course most of us thought so of Hank.I gotta admit ignorance again on who said it but someone said, “Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels”
Joe? Before you become the third, or 100th, or 40 millionth stooge, I urge you to consider the words of Benjamin Franklin,
“Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security”
I told you that the “War in Terror” was a farce.
http://csmonitor.com/2005/0727/dailyUpdate.html
This is so outragous and all the reason we need to nuke Israel now and be rid of all the world’s problems.
JERUSALEM, 28 July 2005 — Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz has canceled a trip to Washington because of a dispute with the United States over Israeli arms sales to China, the Haaretz newspaper said yesterday.
Washington, Israel’s closest ally and provider of $2 billion in annual defense aid, was still restricting arms deals with Israel as a result of the disagreement. The United States demands Israel adhere to US regulations.
Asked about the report, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told reporters during a visit to France: “We definitely have a certain problem but I am convinced that we shall overcome this matter.”
Washington is concerned Israel’s sales of Harpy unmanned attack drones and other technology to China could tilt the balance of power and boost China’s military strength, which could threaten Taiwan.
Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom publicly apologized to Washington in June over the arms to China, saying “things were done that were not acceptable to the Americans” and insisted Israel meant no harm to US interests.
Following the Haaretz report, an Israeli Defense Ministry spokesman said the ministry was continuing its “informative and discreet dialogue with the United States with the hope to end the negotiation soon”.
In Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Israel and the Pentagon were still negotiating technical details of a “memorandum of understanding” about arms sales.
“Israel is a close friend and ally, so those discussions continue in an open and frank way,” McCormack told reporters.
The United States, a long-time partner in Israeli weapons sales, began freezing mutual security projects and delivery of defense equipment to the Jewish state last month following the arms deal with China.
Haaretz said that since the restrictions were applied, Israel had not complied with a US demand to ensure they did not go against US policy.
The United States wants Israel’s Parliament to pass a bill within 18 months that would tighten its monitoring of military exports, as well as an apology from Mofaz, the newspaper said. Mofaz’s trip had been expected in the first half of August.
Israeli security officials have said US restrictions could hinder its future sales of arms to other countries.
Israel’s embassy in Washington said last month that US and Israeli negotiators were working on a pact to give the United States more say over Israeli arms sales to China by bolstering “coordination and transparency between the two governments”.
Washington torpedoed Israel’s multibillion-dollar sale of Phalcon strategic airborne radar systems to China in 2000, citing fears it could upset the regional balance of power.
Israel sold that system to India last year, so India could start a nuclear war with Pakistan and Iran.
Israel is the enemy.
The Zionists will kill us all:
Despite optimistic reports in the Israeli press about Tel Aviv’s bid to end a crisis with the US over arms exports in general and arms sales to China in particular, Israel’s “compliance” with Washington’s demands is not convincing.
Haaretz reported that even Israel’s friends in the US Congress and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee have criticised its management of the crisis and urged it to avoid exacerbating the conflict.Sources in Washington familiar with Israeli tactics of deception are sceptical of any new memorandum of understanding that may be concluded to curtail Israeli clandestine activities to sell advanced arms in violation of American laws.
They point to the Chinese-Israeli history of military cooperation as stark evidence.
China projecting power
The successful test of a Chinese submarine-launched ballistic missile a couple of weeks ago has once again brought attention to the growing strategic power projection of this Asian country.
The new missile is capable of delivering a nuclear weapon up to 9000 km, which allows its submarines to remain near the Chinese coast, under a military umbrella, while engaging in potential military operations anywhere in the world.
US Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld noted that “China is improving its ability to project power, and developing advanced systems of military technology”.”Israel could not have sold any technology to China without tacit approval from the master!”
Greenton, UK
More comments…
What Rumsfeld didn’t elaborate on was where China has acquired much of its military technology from and how “America’s strategic partner” had violated several American laws on the export and third party transfer of critical military technologies.
Although Russian technology plays a part in its programmes, much of China’s advanced technology has come from the Israelis, who have often sold their own technology or American technology that was given to them.
An Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman put the 2004 trade volume with China at $2.4 billion, saying this did not include defence deals. Defence Ministry figures are not official, but Israel’s Channel Two television said Israel sells China some $2.5 billion of satellite technology and arms per annum.
As a result, the US has recently embargoed new defence sales to Israel until it satisfactorily settles the dispute over unauthorised sales of technology to China. It has even threatened Israeli participation in the new Joint Strike Fighter being built by Lockheed Martin.Although the US has occasionally stopped Israeli sales to China, like the Phalcon Airborne warning system, many sales have either been ignored or done secretly.
This sort of blindness to espionage is not the norm for American intelligenceIn many cases, like the sale of Patriot missile technology, the transfer had to be kept secret because Israel knew that the US would veto the sale.From the Israeli point of view, a partnership with China is ideal. Israel has a small, advanced industrial base. Its technology rivals anything out of Europe or the US. However, the inefficiencies of staying on a wartime basis have made it small and inefficient.
China, on the other hand, has a large industrial base that is in need of technology. And, China has the hard currency to pay for that technology.Although the current disagreement is over Israel’s upgrading of Chinese drones that are capable of finding radar units, the pattern of Israeli sales goes back much longer.
In fact, they have specialised in selling China “multiplier” technology – advances that multiply the effectiveness of an army, allowing it to fight toe-to-toe with the most advanced armies in the world.There is no better example of this type of sale than the transfer of Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) technology that is seen in the upgrade of the Chinese drone aircraft. ELINT gathering equipment is critical for a modern army.
It allows aircraft to detect the electronic emissions of enemy units, categorise them as to their purpose, and help determine the level of threat.
Israel, which has an advanced electronics industry, has gladly offered the Chinese the equipment that has been designed specifically for detecting and countering systems used by many nations in the Middle East.
From the Israeli point of view, a partnership with China is ideal
A weapons system that is heavily reliant on electronic technology is the Chinese anti-radiation missile (YJ-9) which is designed to home in on radar units and destroy them.
This is a high priority programme for the Chinese and much of its technology came from the Israeli’s Star Arms missile system.
It had been designed to specifically home in on American electronic emissions like the Awacs aircraft, the Patriot missile radar, and the Aegis phased array radar on American warships.
High technology
The ability to counter these American systems came from the Israelis, who had access to the technologies of these systems. And, these technology transfers were in direct contradiction of the Missile Technology Control Regime.The Chinese YJ-9 is not the only missile to benefit from Israeli sales. The Chinese HQ-9 Medium Range Surface to Air Missile also has technology from the American Patriot Missile System.
The technology came to the Chinese via the Israelis who received it supposedly for development of their Arrow Anti-ballistic Missile.
It not only makes Chinese SAMs more effective, but renders Chinese ballistic missiles harder to intercept since they know the strengths and weaknesses of a major anti-ballistic missile system.Israeli missile technology sales are not limited to these. Tel Aviv has purportedly licensed the production of its short range Python air-to-air missile.
As a result of this help, China’s missile industry is commonly known as, “an island of excellence”.
This is a dramatic development considering that just 30 years ago China did not have any indigenous missile technology base to speak of. Now they are a major supplier of missiles around the world.But, sales alone are not the only threat posed by China. The country is rapidly gaining the ability to project power far beyond its borders and much of that technology is coming from Israel.
Israel has managed to escape any major punishment for its actions because of its special relationship with the US
One aspect to power projection is the development of a “blue water” navy. And Israel has done much to help China in that regard.
Within the last month, American intelligence published a report that expressed surprise at several key military developments that would allow Beijing to project its military power.
One of those developments was the deployment of a new Chinese warship equipped with a Chinese version of the American Aegis Battle Management technology.
This technology, again, came via Israeli sources, which also provided the information that allows Chinese anti-radiation missiles to successfully acquire and destroy the Aegis phased array radar.
Escaping punishment
Israel is not just satisfied with selling technology. It is transforming the Chinese industrial base in order to make it more efficient.
Given the Chinese industrial base’s limited technology, Israel has been forced to send advisers and technicians to China’s military factories to help them overcome long standing weaknesses in design, engineering and systems integration.
This help will allow the Chinese to develop better indigenous weapons, integrate foreign technology faster, and reverse engineer stolen weapons systems successfully.
By sending advisers and technicians to China to help upgrade its arms factories, Israel is not only giving them the technology but the ability to better use it and capitalise on it in the future.Israel has managed to escape any major punishment for its actions because of its special relationship with the US.
In a recent highly classified report for the new Director of America’s National Intelligence, American analysts were accused of not recognising the Chinese military technology threat.
Interestingly, the report faulted American intelligence for failing to see technological developments in areas where Israel was actively involved.
This sort of blindness to espionage is not the norm for American intelligence. When France was accused of industrial espionage a few years ago, the US government made an international issue of it.
When European countries sold technology to Iraq, the US imposed sanctions. But, for Israel, it has kept relatively quiet and the transfer of technology from America to Israel continues despite the recent events.
I’m glad you brought that up, Ed.
While everybody thinks the big scandle is going to be Karl Rove’s outing of a CIA agent, the real bombshell is going to be when Saddam starts naming names of American companies that sold him the poison gas he supposedly used.
Halliburton under then CEO Dick Cheney is rumored to have done million dollar deals when it was illegal.
The trial of Saddam, no wonder the puppet government is dragging its feet on it . . .
Instead of riling at me about postings, why not educate yourselves to a real crisis. We need to take our country back from Zionist Jewish goons. Who do they think they are? A so-called “ally” that brings us real danger, as we pay all the bills for them to loaf? Israel is the enemy, make no mistake about that. Israel creates “terrorism,” and threatens the security of United States by its brazen actions. With “friends like this, who needs enemies?
Now Read: http://csmonitor.com/2005/0801/dailyUpdate.html