With the U.S. military struggling to meet its recruiting goals, it makes sense that it’s looking for ways to be savvier about marketing itself to tomorrow’s troops. But some of the methods seem desperate (driving black Hummers throbbing with hip-hop through urban neighborhoods?). And doesn’t the Pentagon risk sending the wrong message by sponsoring a NASCAR team at the same time that veterans’ health care is nearly $1 billion unfunded (a problem addressed by emergency funding bills passed last week on Capitol Hill).
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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81 Comments
I protest the database the Pentagon is adding, so they can track the 16-18 year olds in high school to better aid their recruiting. I believe in the military being a service to be proud of. As a mother I refuse to allow my children to become fodder for THIS administration and THIS war. It’s not our war to fight.Veterans underfunding started even before this war began. The problem has only gotten more visible since there are so many “new” veterans to take care of because of a war never planned how to take care of them.I have two friends that both use the VA hospital. One is well off and is always seen immediately when he arrives for his appointment. The other isn’t well off and barely manages to get by. He waits months for his appointments and always takes a full day while he waits to get in to his appointment.People who talk about how proud they are of our veterans should go farther to treat them as more than 2nd class citizens.
The military hit their recruiting goals until several years after Bush started a war without end in Iraq.
Get out of Iraq, and military recruiting will go back up.
People are willing to serve their country–they just aren’t willing to fight and die for Bush’s big oil cronies.
Oh . . . as for the 1 billion shortfall in vet’s health care, we spend more than that in EVERY WEEK in Iraq.
Take a close look at Lyn’s post. It’s the handwriting on the wall. It’s also the beginning of what will end this war. I’ve always maintained that wars end when mothers refuse to send their children to die in needless conflict. Old men (in this case Republican chickenhawks) start wars. Then they sit back and watch as other peoples children fight and die in them.
As far as recruiting at NASCAR events, I say more power to them. The NASCAR set supports the war…let them go fight. Of course, NASCAR mothers grieve for their lost children, too. But not to fear. If your kid is killed, you get a nice flag and a pin.
I say bring back the draft, then we’d be a lot more selective about which conflicts we stick our nose in. How many members of congress have kids serving in Iraq? Almost zero! It’s pretty easy to make a case for war when they have nothing to lose. “Their guts and our blood”.
I want to thank those of you who posted above. To this day I truly believe that had it not been for people like you I would have had to serve a 2nd tour in Vietnam and my name might be on that wall. I sincerely hope that your children’s name does not appear on a similar “Middle East” Memorial in the future.
If the draft were revived the rich and well connected would find a way to exempt themselfs
If the draft were revived the rich and well connected would find a way to exempt themselfs
I don’t want to sound cold by saying this, but what is the military suppose to be used for? Some people just want the military as a jobs program. A place were a young person can run around a jungle gym course, learn some discipline, get a free ride from the government, and party by chasing hookers and getting drunk all over the world.
I’m sorry! They are there to protect and fight for the American interest. Of course during a war, recruitment is going to be down. There are a lot of moms out there who are discouraging their kids from joining, because they are afraid of losing their child. It doesn’t matter if you feel the justification of the war was right or not. You just want to be absolutely safe. You want the military to be a safe government jobs program.
Their job is to fight and protect.
Joe,the military is supposed to be used to defend the country, not some madman’s political career. Joe, how long did you serve in the military? Any combat experience? My personal observation is, those that didn’t serve or fight are usually the first to support somebody elses kids getting killed. Yes, the ultimate purpose of the military is to fight for our country and die if need be. But this current travesty doesn’t serve our intrests (unless you’re a republican). If it’s such a wonderful thing, why aren’t groups like the College Republicans lining up at the recruiting office to serve? Sadly for you and your kind, there are just too many guys like Dan, or myself that know what war REALLY is. It’s not about flag waving and parades and speeches and people like you blustering and strutting around talking tough. It’s not even about politics…Republicans and Democrats all bleed red. War is about a kid lying alone on the ground in some god-forsaken hell-hole screaming for help knowing he’ll never see his mother or country again.The problem with you and those like you is, being right means nothing just so long as you win the arguement. And you don’t care how many other peoples kids die to acheive that.
Iraq is just another Viet Nam, and the reasoning behind it is even lamer. Yes, I want to be safe. I haven’t always been. And I want our military to be safe in that I don’t want to see them in harm’s way for no good reason. So who really supports our troops, Joe…You, or I?
Joe, what are we protecting in Iraq? We certainly aren’t protecting our country or our freedom. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Iraq had no WMDs. Iraq DID have Saddam, who was, indeed, a bad ruler. But who put him into power? And why attack HIS country, when there are others who have worse leaders?
And where is Bin Laden, the man who is reported to have been behind 9/11? Oh, that’s right. He’s protected by “sovereignty.” I seem to remember that Iraq was a sovereign nation, but that didn’t stop Bush from invading Iraq. So what’s the deal?
When will the people in this country start recognizing the contradictions our current administration keeps feeding us? When we’re all imprisoned for our “safety”?
One more question, Joe: When did you serve in the military?
I’m sorry! Saddam is a terrorist, he did have ties with al qaeda and 9/11. We found weapons of mass destruction there.
We are doing the right thing in Iraq. It is in the best intrest of the protection of the USA that we do so.
I have no idea why people are denying this. I believe it is to be politically popular and they must want America to lose.
The desperation Bush feels is quite apparent he mentioned 9/11 several times in his speach last week. He is attempting to equate the war in Iraq with 9/11. Also why is it that when in our history we find that people who exercise the one element of democracy that defines US (freedom of speech) there are those who want to take it away in the name of democracy, or at least call you unamerican.
Joe,Obviously you’re from another planet. Saddam was not a terrorist, he was a despot. He had no ties with al qaeda, he had nothing to do with 9/11, and there were no WMD found in Iraq. This has all been proven over and over. Even Bush admits it, which is why his excuses keep changing. Where did you get such bad information? You saying it over and over doesn’t make it true and you can’t provide anything to back up your assertions. You don’t have any idea why people deny this? Mostly because it isn’t true, I’d imagine.
I notice RD asked you about your military service, as did I. I can only assume by your silence on the subject that you’ve never served. Considering your strong feelings on the subject, isn’t it about time you made an appointment with the recruiter? As strongly as you feel, don’t you think it’s about time to put your words into action? I can assure you that with a little combat experience, your feelings will change.But of course you won’t. You’re serving too important a cause here, supporting the president and all. There’s a word for that. Chickenhawk.
So Joe, I’d love to hear your explanation about why you believe Saddam is a terrorist, how he was connected to al Qaeda, what his involvment was with 9/11, and what WMD was found in Iraq.
W.R.,
Here’s Joe’s explanation, channelled through me:
“But, but, the President there was a connection! It must be true! Saddam gassed his own people! The WMD was shipped off the Syria! IT’s NOT BUSH’s FAULT!”
No need to thank me.
Ah, but CF, somebody needs to thank you for explaining where the fellow was going with all that horse-pucky, since he was doing such a horrible job himself.Glad you could “channel” for him. Every time I try to figure out what the hell he’s thinking, I get a headache.
I guess you guys didn’t read the 9/11 Report. It was all in there. That’s ok though. I don’t expect people to know. Because there is unsubstantial proof. I have no idea where this no-ties came from. I think it was the Democratic Party thinking that the American People are stupid and will believe them. It’s pretty sad.
Well! We will see in the future, who was on the right side of the aurgument. The people who support the troops and the people that don’t.
History sure does repeat themselves. It’s just like a liberal to believe in lies. They were the ones protesting our involvement in WWII. THey said the same exact reteric you liberals are saying now. That Hitler didn’t attack America, he hasn’t done anything. He has no ties with the Japanese. It’s not our war, why should we get involved. Too many Americans are dieing.
Japanese people are bad, lets put them in prison camps, and so and and so on. You liberals were on the wrong side then, and you are now. I’m just so glad that very intelligent people are running our military, intelligence, and our government and is doing what is right in this world.
nuff said!
Wow! Where to begin?Joe, Have you even read the 9/11 Report, or do you get “all” of your “news” from Lindbaugh, Savage, and Hannity? Would you mind telling me which of the 20 findings in the 9/11 report even mentions Iraq? Joe, do you even have any idea what the 9/11 Report is about? “unsubstantial proof”? Do you know what “unsubstantial” means? Do you know what an “oxymoron” is? (no, I’m not calling you a moron)
You said:” It’s just like a liberal to believe in lies. They were the ones protesting our involvement in WWII.” Mind if I ask where you got that little gem of information?
Joe, Hitler declared war on the United States. Don’t you think it would be a little difficult for liberals to deny an attack after Pearl Harbor and a declaration of war by Germany?
The only thing I’ve found that I can agree with you on is, there are some very intelligent people running our military, at least in the officer’s corps. Like General Eric Shinseki. I know you have no idea who he is. He got the boot for saying it would take several hundred thousand troops to control the situation in Iraq after the war.Indeed, the future will tell who is right. And there you go with that support the troops thing again. Tell me what you’ve done to support the troops besides putting a sticker on your car.
By the way, Joe…what color is the sky in your world?
Nice of Joe to drop the WMD when called on it. Would it be too much for you to admit when you’re wrong, Joe?
As for opposing our involvement in W.W.II, seems to me that one of the leading voices was (wait for it!) a Senator named Prescott Bush, grandpa of W. And no, Joe, the Democrats who opposed our involvement in the war were conservative Democrats from the south, the ideological blood brothers of today’s Wingnuts like yourself. Liberals like Roosevelt and his folks were all for it.
It must be great to be a Kool Aid drinker like Joe: you can just make stuff up and insist that it’s true.
When the facts conflict with the narrative you’ve cooked up, just make up new facts. Guess that’s why Joe and his ilk aren’t disturbed by the Downing Street Memo: they make a regular habit of fixing the facts to fit the policy.
Oh, and Joe, facts are different than ‘reteric.’ You’re as illiterate as you are incoherent.
Nice of Joe to drop the WMD when called on it. Would it be too much for you to admit when you’re wrong, Joe?
As for opposing our involvement in W.W.II, seems to me that one of the leading voices was (wait for it!) a Senator named Prescott Bush, Grandpa of W. And no, Joe, the Democrats who opposed our involvement in the war were conservative Democrats from the south, the ideological blood brothers of today’s Wingnuts like yourself. Liberals like Roosevelt and his folks were all for it.
It must be great to be a Kool Aid drinker like Joe: you can just make stuff up and insist that it’s true.When the facts conflict with the narrative you’ve cooked up, just make up new facts.
Guess that’s why Joe and his ilk aren’t disturbed by the Downing Street Memo: they make a regular habit of fixing the facts to fit the policy.
Oh, and Joe, facts are different than ‘reteric.’ You’re as illiterate as you are incoherent.
Ack. The dreaded double-post.
CF,What scares the Bejeebus out of me is, I don’t think he was “lying”. I think he really believes it. I’ve run into that kind of wing-nutry before. As you’ll recall during the early stages of the war, the administration would trumpet this or that “discovery” of bio or chemical weapons as “proof” of Saddams complicity. A few days later, their discovery would turn out to be bugspray or whatever. The only part people like Joe ever heard was, “We’ve found the weapons!!!”. The bioweapons trailers were an excellent example. They were for helium weather baloons for God sake, but it’s surprising how many conservatives still believe they were proof positive of WMD. And various Repug politicians are still at it. as reicently as last Wednesday, Rep Robin Hayes (R) said, “Saddam Hussein and people like him were very much involved in 9/11″. Told no investigation had ever found evidence to link Saddam and 9/11, Hayes responded, “I’m sorry, but you must have looked in the wrong places.”That’s what the wingnuts latch onto.
And what was up with the fantasy about the 9/11 report? That had to be embarrassing to come off with that and get busted not even knowing what the document was about.Still, I suspect we’ve probably heard the last of Joe on this particular blog. I think he pretty got his tailfeathers burned. Tailfeathers…chickenhawk, did I really say that? (hahahaha)Later,
W.R.,
Affirmative. It is often difficult to tell the disingenuous from the deluded. I call it ‘truth decay,’ and I believe it is a symptom of what Lakoff and others have called ‘framing.’ Once a cognitive framework is established for understanding a particular issue, it can be impervious to contrary evidence or facts. This was something I mentioned on a different thread with respect to Nathan. And, as you suggested will be the case with Joe, once I laid out a documented case, Nathan ran away.
There are plenty of well-intentioned and under-informed folks out there who disagree with me. There are also well-intentioned and well-informed folks who disagree, as well as those who have bad intentions and are well-informed, and bad intentions who are poorly-informed. It seems like the Right Wing media noise machine has done an effective job of growing the number of people belonging to the first and last categories.
Happy Fourth to everyone, Left, Right, and Center.
I read your other post about framing (and enjoyed it). Since you mentioned Nathan, nothing was going to convince him, not because he wasn’t smart, the guy is a classic “internet troll” Of all the static he put out he only offered 3-4 ideas. The rest was aggravation and irritation. I think Joe, however, was a different kind of critter. Judging from his last 2 posts, he really believed it, and I think we rocked his tidy little world.A Happy 4th to you and yours….
Indeed. He was the classic punk-ass troll: nothing to say, and a mocking, deliberate snottiness. I put Barbie–sorry, Tricia–in the same category.
I’m fine with my truths. Yes I believe it to be true. So does the entire Pentagon staff, the NSA, the Administration and so on.
I know you hate Bush and you want him to be so wrong. And I’m not believing that we are doing the right thing in Iraq for Bush sakes. I don’t think he is that good of a President, but I believe this is the right fight for us to spread freedom in the world.
I know you get your news from other liberals, Newsweek, and NY Times (who has had over 5 journalist admitting and being fired for making up stories). But if you actually believe we are in Iraq because of oil or Haliburton, you are really a true idiot.
Next time you see a returning soliders, (of course after you spit on them and call them baby killers), tell it to their face that the whole reason they went over there was on a lie from the Bush Administration and it had nothing to do with Terrorism and 9/11. See if you get cold socked by them.
The liberals are truely disrespectful to our troops and our nation.
Oh! To answer your question on what color the sky is in my world? It’s the color of Freedom! The way I like it to be. No doom and gloom in my world. I’m truley optimitic that we will win this war on Terrorism and bring freedom to this world. I know a lot of you liberals don’t, and that’s fine. I don’t care! But don’t stand in the way of our troops!
Joe, How many of the 9/11 attackers were iraqi? As I recall, most of them were Saudi. Please explain why we attacked Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia (now there’s a fight I could go with). Bush has made a hell of a mess in Iraq. To the extent that elements of al-Qaida are now on the ground in that country, it is not as a result of Saddam’s invitation but as a result of his removal.The point here is not to defend Saddam. The point is to recognize reality: The invasion and occupation of Iraq did not stem the spread of terrorist activity in the Middle East. It handed the terrorists new opportunities for recruitment, and it gave them new territory in which to operate.
You think starting a war in Iraq is going to spread freedom in the world? So far all it’s done is make the rest of the world fear or hate us. So much for winning hearts and minds. You don’t spread freedom at gunpoint.
I don’t “hate” Bush. I think he’s a total incompetent and I think that somewhere in Texas, a village is missing it’s idiot.
And Joe….never, but never come off with that crap about spitting on returning soldiers to a Viet Nam vet!
I wonder if this is going to work. I am going to provide a couple of links, that deal with WMD, and Iraq.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10547
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15713
So, was our government officials wrong??
Joe? you are on a fast track to irrelevancy. As was posted above, Nathan was such as you. He spouted talk radio talking points in many threads. He had no facts, just rhetoric.The original post in this thread concerned military advertisement through Nascar. I oppose this. That tax payer dollars are used to sponsor sporting events and encourage young people to enlist in a war in which they have no stake is shameless. What is worse is that provisions of the “No Child Left Behind” act (which by the way Bush has never funded) REQUIRE schools to provide contact information for all students once they reach middle school as a condition for continued funding.Joe? It’s Bush’s war. He made it. If you are so dead set that it is right and just then why not advocate re-introducing the draft? While you are at it DEMAND that there be no contingencies, no excuses (as Bush used to avoid it) Do THAT. Put that to a vote of the people and see how urgent Bush’s war is. And if you won’t do that then the war is NOT just or justified.In short Joe, quit it with the chickenhawk, armchair quarterback, Bush spoken calls to service that he himself avoided. Or get thee to a recruiter. Nuff sid
Joe? you are on a fast track to irrelevancy. As was posted above, Nathan was such as you. He spouted talk radio talking points in many threads. He had no facts, just rhetoric.The original post in this thread concerned military advertisement through Nascar. I oppose this. That tax payer dollars are used to sponsor sporting events and encourage young people to enlist in a war in which they have no stake is shameless. What is worse is that provisions of the “No Child Left Behind” act (which by the way Bush has never funded) REQUIRE schools to provide contact information for all students once they reach middle school as a condition for continued funding.Joe? It’s Bush’s war. He made it. If you are so dead set that it is right and just then why not advocate re-introducing the draft? While you are at it DEMAND that there be no contingencies, no excuses (as Bush used to avoid it) Do THAT. Put that to a vote of the people and see how urgent Bush’s war is. And if you won’t do that then the war is NOT just or justified.In short Joe, quit it with the chickenhawk, armchair quarterback, Bush spoken calls to service that he himself avoided. Or get thee to a recruiter. Nuff sid
Once again, “The Boys” have gotten sidetracked with their own personal agendas and personal gripes. I guess the original question was, “what do we think of the new recruitment propaganda. And that is waht it is, propaganda can be either positive or negative. With all the hubbub these days about rednecks, I am very surprised that the NASCAR angle didn’t show up sooner than it did.
Arizona,You have got to be kidding. Frontpage Mag is a right-wing website. That’s like me linking Buzzflash to prove a liberal point. But I did read both articles and I noticed that They use terms like “suspected” and “almost certianly”. Even Bush doesn’t push the tired old hack about WMD anymore.So how about we check some links that aren’t right-wing conspiracy sites. Say, something put out by respected sources, oh, say the government for instance.Duelfer’s report: http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/Or how about our own CIA?:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/Or maybe the British:http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1510258,00.html
You asked, “So was our government wrong?”
Why don’t you check the government’s own reports instead of getting your news from right-wing political hack sites and find out?
Joe,
You can stuff that chest-beating, patriotic bullshit. Are you a soldier? If not, then shut up.
How dare you hide behind the troops. I’ve got good friends and members of my son’s family over there, Joe. Don’t use them as a pawn to justify your ritual Bush worship.
Are there any current soldiers/ veterans of the present War in Iraq who’d like to weigh in on what they understand to be the reasons we went to war? Does Joe really speak for you?
Oh, and one more thing, Joe. The whole ‘liberal protestors spit on returning troops from Vietnam” thing? Well, it’s phony.
“Jerry Lembcke, an associate professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam combat veteran, has written a well documented book, “The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam” (New York University Press, 1998) that thoroughly debunks the tales of protesters “spitting upon” Vietnam vets. Lembcke conducted extensive research to ascertain that there were no contemporaneous news reports or police complaints lodged to substantiate the claims that began appearing in the media about 1991.”
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Did_protesters_spit_050803.htm
I’d feel bad for you if I thought you had a shred of integrity.
This has been an interesting thread to follow. Thanks for the interesting posts and reading material from both sides.I was surprised recently to find that a recruiter is never in danger of being deployed. In other words, he/she can sell you a war that he/she will never have to fight.As a parent I’ve read article after article on how many of the troops don’t have armor or more of the basic supplies. We’re spending billions on this war and the President doesnt’ see fit to protect the troops? He cuts the funding for medical care for many of the people who are badly injured and will spend the rest of their lives labeled “disabled”. Another area that is always being cut from the budgets.If you want to encourage parents to allow their children to join the military, deal with these issues.I’d like to ask Joe how many of his friends have come home in a body bag? When his body count matches mine then I believe I’ll give him a bit more credibility on the issues.
Lyn, I doubt if Joe has many friends, and as for body bags, it might be a little hard to tell considering how secretive this administration is. The bodies of our soldiers are sneaked home and don’t recieve the honorable return they deserve.
As a vet, I appreciate your concern about veterans care, what’s left of it anyway.
Do you have children that are military/draft age?
To anyone interested, the Peace and Social Justice Center of South Central Kansas is pushing the public schools to offer “opt out” forms to parents, so that their student’s information will be kept confidential and not be handed out to recruiters. If you want more info on the subject, you can go to http://www.wichitapeace.org.
*Sigh*
http://www.spiritoftruth.org/iraqlinks.htm
from Locke’s MSNBC link “Another addendum also noted that military forces in Iraq may continue to find small numbers of degraded chemical weapons ”
Yeah! I know it doesn’t count because it not a large stock pile.
ANd his link to the liberal Gaurdian Unlimted makes nothing about no WMD’s. Instead it is a disagreement of a one man about how we used it to go to war. He thought we should found another way to remove Saddam. That’s fine! He may have a point!
And I have every right about supporting the troops and speak my mind on the matter. Sure I don’t see body bags, but I do send letters and care packages and I have a good friend over there. That’s support. I know you guys want to beat me up, and that’s fine too. As a patrotic American, I can say what I believe! If you want to chase me off this blog because I disagree with you, then I suggest you e-mail the administrators of this blog and have my IP address banned. Just say that I’m a libertarian and disagree with liberal policies. Hopefully that’s enough!
That way you don’t have to defend yourself in a public discourse debate and preach to the choir.
Joe, Joe, Joe,Ease up guy, you’re taking this all way too personal. Nobody wants to “beat you up” (at least I don’t). If I were a drinking man, I’d be glad to have a beer with you.I don’t think anybody here has insinuated that you’re a “bad” person or an “evil” person. We just dissagree with your position and we also have a right under our Constitution to state our dissagreement. Nobody, least of all I, wants to chase you off this blog. I’ve read some of your other posts and sometimes you make sense. Unfortunately, you didn’t here. You made several assertions that were patently wrong and weren’t able to back them up. As a close friend says, “never come to a gunfight with a knife”.Joe, we all support our troops, we just dissagree with the policies that have put them in harm’s way. I don’t want to see our soldiers killed for no good reason. Do you?
Joe, you need to understand about “degraded weapons”. That means they’re unusable. I read an article last year about a sarin gas shell that was found in the desert. It was surmised that it was a dud that had been fired before the Gulf War. That’s an example of a degraded weapon. Is that your idea of WMD?Something else you might keep in mind is, the weapons capability Saddam had during the Gulf War he got from us, made in the good old USofA. Remember, back in the Regan days, Saddam was our friend.Keep submitting posts, Joe. You’ve provided us all with a great deal of entertainment.
We just had a Fourth of July to celebrate and while our president smirks about his “taking it to the terrorists” non of his family members are over there in harms way, nor are any of the people in his cabinet. Our families spill their blood and our children die so he can get on TV and smirk about his war successes.
Thanks for that post Locke! I love a good debate on the issues. I myself will try to keep from getting personal. :)
Well, one thing I’ve noticed is that us youngin’s, 18-20 somethings, are mostly lefties. Thanks the vast amount of information available to us via internet, we are better informed than the youths of the Nam era… So, I don’t think that a few race cars are going to sway people. Nice try, military.And thank goodness younger generations are more liberal, it means we’ll get back the country soon.
Well, one thing I’ve noticed is that us youngin’s, 18-20 somethings, are mostly lefties. Thanks the vast amount of information available to us via internet, we are better informed than the youths of the Nam era… So, I don’t think that a few race cars are going to sway people. Nice try, military.And thank goodness younger generations are more liberal, it means we’ll get back the country soon.
Hey Joe, you seem to be alone in here. You can’t win with this bunch. All I read is a bunch of typical Democrat talking points put forth as if they were truth. One man can’t keep up with that spin machine. I am sure glad all the lefties support the troops. I hope the troops realize most of these folks are plants from Aljazeera.
Tara,You give hope to an old slightly left of center liberal. I was a youth in the Viet Nam era…I was pretty well informed, but you’re right, the information age is something else. All that data at the tips of our fingers.Thankfully, I still have enough years left to see your generation take back our country and set us on the right path again. My best to you and your friends.
I used to be liberal when I was in High School. Yeah! I couldn’t believe I was in the Dark Side. But as I got older, became more informed, graduated from College, I saw the light. Now I’m a libertarian.
It will be a long time for the Liberals to some how get back their country as they say. I don’t think it will happen, unless we have a serious economic depression. The last liberal president was Carter. He couldn’t survive a second presidency.
But many Americans are very optimitic about their future, they are working hard, small business is developing, things are looking bright for our future. Thanks to capitalist prone policies from Clinton that made a lot happen. Bush tax cuts are doing good. Housing cost and interest are at their historic lows. People can afford their own homes again.
I am really optimitic about my future. I believe in capitalism, individuality, and responsiblity! I can take care of myself and I like it that way. It’s a breath of true freedom! :)
W.R, there is also a lot of bullshit propaganda on the internet. For example, I think the whole “swift boat” campaign against Kerry that was all over the internet helped Bush win the election, and it had nothing to do with truth. There was so much misinformation on the internet during the 2004 election campaign it made one’s head spin.I also think that it stinks when someone disagrees with the majority of opinons on this blog, he gets eaten up and spit out with personal insults. That’s one of the reasons I can’t stand radio talk shows, it’s more about thinly veiled agendas and demeaning those who don’t agree rather than serious disussion of the issues. Joe has the right to his beliefs and the right to be respected by others when he shares his opinions. I enjoy reading everyone’s input, but it gets a little frustrating when the put downs start flying. Just because I may not share Joe’s views doesn’t give me permission to call him names. Shame on those of you who do.Can we get back to discussing the issue now? What about those recruiting techniques?!?
Sorry Joe, housing costs are through the roof, partly because of low interest rates and alternative and “interest only” mortgages. It costs more to own a home today than it ever has. Mortgage foreclosures are at an all time high, decent paying jobs are getting shipped overseas, we can’t afford to educate our kids, the disabled are getting their benefits cut, gas prices are through the roof (driving up the costs of everything else), we’re stuck in war with no end in sight, and the national debt just keeps getting higher and higher. I’m glad you’re feeling optimistic, I’m not so hopeful about the way things are going right now. I think we’re probably on the brink of a major enoconomic disaster. But, it’s nice to hear you’re having a good day.
Damoon, I don’t deny for a second that there’s a lot of trash on the internet. I have enough faith in kids like Tara and B Pearson to hope they can see through it.Damoon, I don’t think I leveled any personal insults at anybody; “chickenhawk” is a definition, not an insult. And I wasn’t the one who threw out the idiot insult. But you’re right, we’re all entitled to our opinions (I pointed that out). I even defended your “victim”. Even though I dissagree with Joe on this particular issue, I kind of like the guy and on other issues, we’ve agreed.So please read carfully before you level the “shame on you” thing. By their nature, these blogs can get rough…those who can’t handle the heat need to stay out of the kitchen. Joe got dusted up a little, but he’s a fighter…he’ll be ok.
I just don’t see how insulting people adds anything positive to a discussion. It’s hard to stay focused on the issues if one feels constantly compelled to defend themselves against verbal attacks, and who are YOU to suggest if I can’t take the heat, to “stay out of the kitchen”? Who died and put you in charge?
And who are you to tell me what to say and think? You kind of like to have it both ways, doncha?
I don’t remember telling you what to say or think, I just wish you and others like you could share your opinions without being so disrespectful. It’s always amazing to me how rude and ugly people can become when given a little autonomy. You all can choose to say anything you want any way you want to say it, I’m just making a suggestion. I know I’m always more open to listening to others when they are being thoughtful and respectful.
Sorry, I meant “economic” in my earlier post, I usually proofread what I’ve written before I hit post!!
Damoon, I don’t remember telling you to “get out of the kitchen”, either (because I didn’t). Please re-read the post. I give respect when I get it. Same as you, I’m more open to listening to others when they’re being thoughtful and respectful. People get “eaten up” when they present information that’s patently untrue (We’ve found WMD in Iraq, Saddam was directly involved in 9/11,etc).
Joe and I settled our differences with no hard feelings. I quote:
“Thanks for that post Locke! I love a good debate on the issues. I myself will try to keep from getting personal. :)”
I don’t have a problem, Joe doesn’t have a problem; guys can do that.I’m sorry you have a problem, but sometimes we play rough.
Thank you Damoon! The problem with many of these blogs is that people tend to get personal in order to show how “ignorant” the other person is, which adds absolutely nothing to the original argument: Again, debate 101. Kinda throws any intelligent discourse out the window, doesn’t it?I was under the impression that the question was whether or not the military is using improper (read not-too-subtle) means to entice the younger generation to join up.I’ll throw my two cents in:1. By all means, use whatever means available to get people to join. Seems to me that’s the American way. May I point out the advertisements used by pretty much any product sold in this country? Same thing in my book.2. Of course veterans’ health is under funded: it’s run by the government. What’s run by the government that isn’t under funded? That point seems moot.3. Don’t join. This war should never have happened. It’s another Viet Nam, where I did my tour. And for many reasons, personal and political, I still can’t walk up to the Wall. I hate to see another wall go up with thousands of names of sons and daughters who died so son could try and finish daddy’s job. (sorry…had to say that)4. It’s all about oil.
I wonder why there was no mention that the U.S. Army has a top fuel car that the government has been sponsoring. Plus the fact that it has been around for a few years on the race circuit.
Here is a link on how the U.S. Army car did, not bad at all. Of course, it is always fun to go out, and see the big boys race.
http://nhra.com/2005/events/race02/results/tf.html?
HEY!!!!!!! The question was “What do you all think about some of the newer recruitement appraoches being used by our military?” You folks seem to have one hell of a tough time staying on track. Maybe you all need to get out of the house more often. Maybe take a walk? Go watch a t-ball game for some prime entertainment………
Oh, looky; a liberal catfight! Let’s claw each others eyes out! Boohawwwwwww!
Lefty, please don’t catagorize me as “liberal” or “consevative”, I have my own thoughts, thank you, and I prefer to think that I don’t fit in any box. Just because I oppose GW’s war, doesn’t make me a liberal. I have some “conservative” ideas on some issues, “liberal” on others, and I’m “mainstream” on most. Not everyone thinks in black and white!Dennis, you’re right, this blog is addictive and I need some fresh air!! I’m going to the ball game!
I love all these comments about Bush just “finishing daddy’s job”
Perhaps any of you who have said this would care to tell me exactly how “daddy” did not finish the job and what exactly “finishing the job” is?
What they refer to is that George Bush Sr didn’t take Saddam out, after Saddam retreated from Kuwait, we left him in power.
Who is this “we” that left him in power?
Last time I checked the first Gulf war was a coalition of many Governments, all of which agreed ONLY to the removal of Saddam from Kuwait.
That is exactly what Saudi Arabia helped to pay for and that is exactly what the Democrats in Congress supported and that is exactly what “we” did.
It had nothing to do with “daddy” not “finishing the job”
OK, you got me on that one!!
Thanks for the post on how to opt kids out of contact with military recruiters. My son will be in junior high next year and I don’t want the military anywhere near him. Unless and until this nation becomes worth fighting for, we will leave the defense of this sad nation to those such as Joe, who seem all too eager to smile while others suffer.
Damoon, why do you liberals hate to be called liberal?
JR, Good for you. The military wouldn’t want your little parasite anyway. You say: “until this country becomes worth fighting for.” Wow, you are some piece of work. Well, you know the difference between cowardice and bravery,don’t you?
I didn’t think so.
You calling me a “liberal” and because I don’t support Bush’s invasion of Iraq just illustrates your ignorance. Because you have no substance to your argument, you resort to name calling and sterotyping. That’s pretty common for someone whose too lazy to figure out what’s really going on, so you just swallow the spin and rhetoric put out there by the Bush administration.
JR, Good for you! I know I’d never sacrifice my children either for a war based on this country’s need for oil.So Lefty, what branch of the service are you in?
Well if yer not a liberal then yer just shallow.
Army, 2 years, lost some of my right hand. Bitter about people who have no idea what good we did over there and dissing us like it was Vietnam, which it isn’t. Ya’ll can stew in it for all I care now. Those crazy terrorists will take us over just like they did in Europe, and you’ll deserve it for not having the guts to admit to the truth in front of your face
Lefty, judging from some of your comments, you lost more than part of your hand. War does that to people. I’ve seen your kind of attitude before up close and personal. Been there myself. I know there’s not much I can say that’ll penetrate the bitterness and the hatred you feel except someday either you’ll get over it or it’ll eat you up. Of course I know you’ll have to come back with some hateful remark because that’s what drives you right now. But it won’t always be that way. I know you think we’re your enemies, but we’re Americans just like you. I’m sure you’d be the first to say you defended our country’s freedom and I wouldn’t disagree with you for a minute. But you probably should take a moment to consider what that freedom is about. Considering the sacrifice you made, it would be a shame to turn on the principals that make this a great country. Being bitter isn’t going to get back what you lost, and it’s a sad way to live. At some point you just need to let it go and move on.
Well said W.R! Lefty, please enlighten us about how this is NOT like Vietnam. I’d appreciate it if you’d back up your statements with WHY you believe the way you do, maybe we can all learn something. Isn’t that the purpose of this blog? It should be about more than calling people names because you don’t agree with them.Sorry about your hand, and thank you for your sacrifice for your country.
Damoon, it’s like Deja vu. Lefty says it isn’t like Viet Nam, but to see his words and get a dose of the venom in that attitude…girl, it’s starting all over again! That guy gave me the cold willies. I feel so sorry for the guy knowing what he’s still got to go through. He’s got a long process ahead of him. Still, are we going to loose another generation to another mindless war?We all need to take a good long look at Lefty. That poor guy is a poster child for why we need to stop this mindless crap NOW.
Differences:No jungle. No draft. No commies. No heavy supplies by China and USSR. Very small effort compared to Vietnam. Lots fewer casualties. Enemy in Iraq is not as tenacious as viet cong. Iraq enemy completely unconcerned about civilian casualties. Republican war, not Democrat, so field commanders in Iraq have much more autonomy. Troops better equipped now. Coordination is better now. Successes are measurable and real now.
Similarites:People are trying to make us pull out before the job is done, leaving the Iraqis to the same fate the Vietnamese had after America stopped supporting them, and the same fate the Iraqis had when the UN forced Bush 1 to not pursue Iraqi troops and finish the war then.
Lesson:You either destroy the enemy completely and unconditionally, like we did in WWII, or they keep coming back to slaughter you.
For the Muslims, this is a religious war, the more we try kill them, the more others will join their jihad against the occupiers. “Destoying the enemy completely” is just a tad unrealistic in this senerio. I agree, if we pull out too soon, Iraq will collapse just like South Vietnam did, and many more will die. We should have learned the lessons from Vietnam, and never started a war that we can’t win without fighting for decades and at a tremendous cost to us and our allys.
Uh, Lefty…WE supplied the enemy with all the weapons they need. We swept in and blew a bunch of stuff, and President “Codpiece” did his strut and “Mission Accomplished” show. But Lefty….we didn’t secure the ammo dumps and the armories. Iraq had one of the 10 largest standing armies in the world and we didn’t secure the weapons?!?! I call that a military blunder on a cosmic scale. If you leave ordinance lying around, it’ll probably get used against you (like in Nam).
Lots fewer casualties? Son, this freakshow has only been going on for a couple years. Wasn’t much by way of casualties in Nam in the first couple of years, either. But I think we still have a long way to go in Iraq. How many kids will we loose there in the next 4-6-8-10 years?
“Enemy in Iraq is not as tenacious as viet cong”Mind if I ask what you base that on?
Lefty, we’re fighting Bush’s personal war….they’re fighting a foriegn occupier for their country and homes. I wonder who’s side God is on?
W.R, I’m sure Nathan will find some scripture in the bible to prove that God is on our side.
Well, if we had to weight the evidence of whose side God would be on, I think the scale is in our favor.
Oh for God’s sake!!!!!!
Yes, for Gods sake indeed!
Nathan,
The history of Israel should make you nervous about claiming that America is the Chosen People. God never smites as hard as when he smites the ones he chose. Just sayin’…
Oh, and your comment on another thread about the translated accuracy of the Bible being “99.8% accurate’ was priceless! Translation is a qualitative art, not a quantitative one. There isn’t a 1:1 correspondence from one language to another. Some concepts simply don’t translate, and even when they do, something is usually lost along the way.
Your naivete is touching, however.
CF,
I dont recall saying that we were the chosen people.
So is there something about the Bible you are saying is not translated correctly then?