Fred Phelps and followers from his Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka love to shock. But have they finally — finally! — gone too far in protesting the funeral in Massachusetts last week of Army Staff Sgt. Christopher Piper, a Green Beret who was killed by a roadside bomb in Afghanistan?
Four protesters from the church held up signs that said, “Thank God for dead soldiers,” “God blew up the troops” and “Fag body bags,” reported the Boston Herald.
And Piper wasn’t even gay — not that his sexuality could justify protesting a funeral. But the Phelps crew blames Sept. 11 and the resulting wars and casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan on America’s tolerance of homosexuality. So it exploited Piper’s death and funeral for publicity.
Piper’s family responded with amazing tolerance. Ernest Piper said the protesters had his brother to thank for protecting their constitutional right to free speech. “Those that go to fight, fight for that right,” he said.
However, the Boston Police Department made sure the protesters couldn’t be too disruptive. According to one report, the police bagpipe band started up whenever the protesters started shouting. And the Herald reported that the protesters were blocked from the public by the Police Department’s mounted unit, “which strategically pointed the backs of their horses toward the group.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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117 Comments
I think Fred Phelps and his followers should take a page out the Jim Jones playbook and drink the purple koolaid
The guy is a nutcase. Unfortunantly people like him and Randall Terry take millions of dollars away from niave people for their crazy cause.
It’s sad! I would also keep an eye on Terry Fox and Joe Wright here in Wichita. They are verging in a grey area of politics with the intergration of church and state.
This Massachusettes incident is far from the first. Phelps loonies have been traveling the country and protesting at funerals. A friend of mine in Illinois brought it to my attention over a week ago when a soldier’s funeral near her was protested by these crackpots. When she told me, the only group I could think of was Phelps’s. It’s still unbelievable that humans, under the guise of God and Church, could be so cruel. There’s a special place for people like this, and it isn’t heaven.
Joe, I’m glad to see we agree on something.
I’ve followed Fred Phelps shenanigans for years. He’s quite a piece of work. That he still walks the streets as a free man speaks poorly of Kansas. His gay-bashing is only the latest in a lifetime of insanity, but in Kansas, there are a lot of people who, while they might not like being compared to Phelps, are his ideological kin (Terry Fox, et al).I’m sure there’s a special place in Hell for Phelps. The Westboro Church consists of his family and inlaws and that’s the really sad part…his family. You can’t really blame his family for being nutz after what he put them through. When I was a kid, I thought the guy across the street was a monster because he whipped his kids with a razor strap. Phelps used a mattock handle. That’s a thing heavier than a baseball bat, and he was alleged to deliver 60 strokes or more. The schools in Topeka new he was abusing his kids but never did anything about it because they knew he’d drag them through the courts. Phelps was known for his escapades in court. In 1976, and investigation by the Kansas AG found that 73% of Phelps cases resulted in settlements for chump change (most of which went to Phelps for legal fees). In 1985, every federal judge in the state lodged a complaint against him.Phelps is addicted to hate. Regardless of what the law says, the people of this state should run his crazy ass out of the state on a rail.
Jon Michael Bell wrote a very intresting expose about Phelps and family. It’s kind of long, but I highly recomend it if you want to find out more about Phelps:http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/michael_haggerty/expose3.htm
Didn’t one of his kids write a “daddy dearest” book about him? Does anyone know what the title is and where I could buy it?
Didn’t one of his kids write a “daddy dearest” book about him? Does anyone know what the title is and where I could buy it?
Damoon,The only thing I could find as far as a book is: Addicted to Hate: The Fred Phelps story and it’s public domain and you can read it online for free. Otherwise, there are tons of articles about him all over the web. The guy is a real embarrasment. Didn’t find anything by his kids. Mark seems to be the one most likely to speak out against the old ogre, but Nate is estranged from the family, too. Did you check my earlier link?
Aren’t real Christians angered by this? It kind of gives the 99.8% of Christians who are good people a really bad name.
OK, I just read Addicted to Hate. That guy is one sick puppy. I can’t believe someone could be so incredibly cruel…what a monster.
I’ve followed Phelps for quite a while too. He’s a man who is so morally and intellectually impoverished that he has only one cuss word to his name!Yes, he’s a real piece of work, all right. As far as his supposed christianity, I’ve found no evidence he’s ever even read the bible; he just uses it the same way he uses a mattock handle. The scary thing is that he’s buddies with Terry Fox & crew, which gives his toxic waste a pipeline into a somewhat more socially acceptable religious community.Mainstream christians need to shut this guy down before the smell rubs off on them!
How do you make the leap that Phelps and Terry Fox are the same, or “buddies”. If you checked your facts you would see Phelps and his group have protested Immanual Baptist for the stand they take. They don’t agree with Terry Fox, nor does Terry Fox agree with them.
While it may be unplesant to think so, Phelps has a lot of ideological allies right here in Kansas. You had only to read Opinion Line during the run-up to the Defence of Marriage Amendment to see that. There were some very nasty bigoted things said. While I may find the lifestyle distasteful, I find it even more so to amend our constitution to discriminate against any group of people. But the subject is moot (until the amendment is overturned for discrimination). Tara, I’m a Christian and I’m angered by it. Phelps is one of those cases that almost makes one wonder if freedom of speech is such a good idea (it is…it’s worth dying for). I made my suggestion…run the sob out of the state on a rail. I’ll be glad to furnish the rail.
When he protested at Randy Shilts’ funeral, I was really hoping somebody would shoot him. Unfortunately, that crowd was well-behaved, and nobody did. Oh, well, we can always hope. As for the question about whether Christians are offended by his behavior, you bet we are. Christian does not equal hatred; quite the opposite, in fact.
It does bother me that Phelps is someone who puts a bad light on Christianity.
As a Christian I am not supposed to hate Homosexuals.
There is a big difference in not accepting sin and hating the sinner which it appears Phelps did not grasp.
It does bother me that Phelps is someone who puts a bad light on Christianity.
As a Christian I am not supposed to hate Homosexuals.
There is a big difference in not accepting sin and hating the sinner which it appears Phelps did not grasp.
Last year I went to a counter protest against Phelps when his crew were picketing “The Laramie Project” that played in Wichita. What bothered me the most is how they’ve poisoned the minds of their children with hate. They also had their kids dragging the American flag on the ground. I felt so sad for those kids, being brought up that way, they don’t have a chance for a normal life.
Last year I went to a counter protest against Phelps when his crew were picketing “The Laramie Project” that played in Wichita. What bothered me the most is how they’ve poisoned the minds of their children with hate. They also had their kids dragging the American flag on the ground. I felt so sad for them, being brought up that way, they don’t have a chance for a normal life.
Nathan, homosexuality is a just a variation of human sexuality. Granted, any sexual behavior is a choice, but we don’t “choose” our sexuality. It’s part of us from the time we’re born. Please don’t go quoting Leviticus to me, there is a lot of stuff in that chapter that most (if not all) Christians don’t adhere to. Homosexuality is not “sin” it’s just part of the human condition.
Damoon,
I dont have to quote Leviticus to you. There are several verses in the New Testament too:
Romans 1:18-32
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
1 Corinthians 6:8-10
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Do you not agree with Apostle Paul?
1 Timothy 1:8-11
8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
Seems like the Bible was pretty clear about Homosexuality there too.
I realy do love reading the scripture and studying it with people.
Perhaps you would care to tell me why you disagree with those verses or why those verses are wrong?
I would be very interested to hear your opinion.
I have more verses which all show a greater context of why Homosexuality is indeed a sin, but it would take a bit of space to post them all. These few verses seemed clear enough.
Damoon,
Exactly what is it that makes you believe that Homosexuality is something people are born with?
Is it genetics?
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
Nathan, would you please just post the book and chapter?
I look forward to reading the posted article about Fred Phelps.Without reading that, I do know that Phelps and his inbred “church” preach a gospel of hate. The gospel according to Phelps proclaims the hate of the Lord God for everyone from homosexuals to high school students who dare to lampoon him in a school play.I’m no christian. I’m an atheist. But if the church could excommunicate Galileo for daring to suggest that the Earth revolves around the Sun and not otherwise, then surely the church at large and with a unanimous voice can denounce Phelps for what he is; a sick evil man.It has been said that the last refuge of a scoundrel is patriotism, and current events prove this out. I submit that the last refuge of a sick demented socio-path, ie Phelps, is a self assigned “divine assignment”
I look forward to reading the posted article about Fred Phelps.Without reading that, I do know that Phelps and his inbred “church” preach a gospel of hate. The gospel according to Phelps proclaims the hate of the Lord God for everyone from homosexuals to high school students who dare to lampoon him in a school play.I’m no christian. I’m an atheist. But if the church could excommunicate Galileo for daring to suggest that the Earth revolves around the Sun and not otherwise, then surely the church at large and with a unanimous voice can denounce Phelps for what he is; a sick evil man.It has been said that the last refuge of a scoundrel is patriotism, and current events prove this out. I submit that the last refuge of a sick demented socio-path, ie Phelps, is a self assigned “divine assignment”
If mainstream Christian’s are really disgusted by Rev Phelps why doesn’t the governing body of the Baptist church defrock him or can anybody just assume the title of Reverend? I am unfamialiar with the interworking of the Baptist church. While I still like my purple Koolaid idea, I don’t think that will happen. But their are other ways to fight back against the Rev. Phelps; suscribe his email address to all the junk mail(preferably sex related nastier the better)or forward your junkmail to him. Make a donation in his name to a charity that would annoy him children with aids or something relating to Matthew Shepard and ask them to send him a thank note.
Dave – Baptist churchs are independet of each other so there is no way to “defrock” him in the way we would normally think of. His followers could fire him (fat chance of that) but other than that, there is nothing that can be done in that regard.
Nathan, I know in my heart that people are born with their sexuality from my own experience. Humans can’t help the way they feel, what they do with their feelings is the choice. There are many things in the bible that hold little or no merit today, because as a civilization we’ve grown, evolved, and learned a lot in the last 2,000 yrs. I have many friends, relatives, co workers, and patients who happen to be gay, and I can tell you that being gay is not something that most people “choose”. Some have tried to live a straight life, but it just a lie that doesn’t work. I know gays who just stay in the closet and live a solitary lifestyle rather than live with the wrath of the homophobes in our society. I’ve seen the pain and anguish of young teenagers who stuggle with their emerging awareness that they’re not “like everyone else”. I’m not a Christian, and I think Christians who use the bible to judge and look down on those who are different are wrong. Instead of looking at your bible for every answer in life, try opening your eyes to the world and become more empathetic and intune to others around you. As fellow human beings, we all have the same feelings and the same need to be loved and to belong. We’re more alike than we are different from each other. People who happen to be gay have every right to the same rights, resposibilities, and happiness that the rest of us enjoy.
And I say Bravo Damoon!Very, very well said.
Damoon,
I must admit, I am confused now. In the Gitmo blog you said you would pray for me you talked about Jesus and quoted scripture to me.
Now you say you are not a Christian?
This explains everything to me now. Now I understand why you dont accept what the Bible says, now I understand why you would think what you do about Jesus, now I understand why you dont seem to know what the Bible says.
Yes, you have said that you grew up in church and were taught the Bible, but you dont seem to know what it says about many of the things we have been discussing.
I am curious as to what you meant when you said you would pray for me?
Damoon,
How does “knowing in your heart” prove anything about Homosexuality?
It doesnt.
I know in my heart that Homosexuality is not something people are born with becuase God would not tell us it is sin otherwise.
I too have seen people who were Homosexuals. People who came to know Christ and have repented of their sins and are no longer Homosexual.
Damoon,
I do not judge Homosexuals. I am merely telling you exactly what the Bible says.
Of course you would tell me not to follow everything the Bible says… and that is why you are not a Christian.
The Bible inspires me everyday. The Bible is full of rich and rewarding scripture. It is not something to be ashamed of.
I am proud to say that I follow the Bible!
Everyone should read this blog. A sixteen year old kid came out to his parents, and they sent him to an “conversion therapy” camp. Sick, sick sick. $6,000 to psychologically batter your child.http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=7428306&blogID=29364299&Mytoken=20050707111150
Nathan, I don’t know if its genetic. We just mapped the human genome a couple of years ago, so we have a long ways to go research-wise. But when EVERY SINGLE GAY PERSON you encounter says “I didn’t choose to be this way. Why would anyone choose a life where we’re constantly discrimintated against?”, I’m inclined to believe them.
You saying its a choice is like you telling me what it’s like to be a 21 year old Indian woman :) You’re not in my shoes, therefore how could you know? Likewise, I’m not gay, so I have to believe them when they said they’ve known it since youth. After all, I didn’t choose to be straight.
As for “ex gays”, they don’t exist in the way you think. There are people who decide not to engage in homosexuality, but the attraction is still there, and they spend the rest of their lives forcing themselves to get married, etc, because their church rejects who they are. John Smid, founder of Love In Action, the biggest “conversion camp” out there, doesn’t claim to “cure homosexuality”. He himself admits he still has homosexual feelings and forces himself to think of his wife whenever that happen. He simply says that the feelings will always be there, but don’t act on it because its a sin.
Love shouldn’t be so difficult.
Of course the attraction is still there.
It is no different than any other sinful lifestyle.
If someone is gambling everyday and then they realize it is a sinful lifestyle and stop do they never think about it again?
Just because people who choose to reject sin are still tempted by it doesnt prove it was something they are born with.
But Nathan, true romantic love is such a basic need for us humans. The need to gamble or drink or [insert vice here] is not. If gay people could find the same kind of deep, heartfelt love with people of the opposite sex, you BET they would do it. But they can’t no matter how hard they pray or fast or whatever.
But I’m sure you’ve been married at least in love, how would it feel to not be able to have that, ever? What kind of God would deprive real, romantic love–the stuff of sappy movies, slow ballads and poetic musings–to 7 to 10 percent of the population? What kind of God would say “You can’t have that like everyone else can; all you can do is put a big smile on and fake it”?
Think of yourself as a teenager, the feeling of a crush, the tummy butterflies, the sweaty palms, the “does he/she like me?” thoughts, how every song reminds you of them…it’s something we heterosexuals take for granted. Who are we to deprive the same kind of bliss to homosexuals?
Tara C,
The simple fact is that neither you nor I can speak of “all” homosexuals in any way.
Scientifically speaking there is not any real evidence to support Homosexuality as something someone is born with.
My world view comes from the Bible. You reject what it says so obviously you and I wont see eye to eye on this issue.
You question what kind of a God wouldnt let people fall in love? Well, if you truely want to understand God then you need to read the Bible. So until you are willing to accept what the Bible says about God then any of your logical assumptions about him are void.
As far as I’m concerned Homosexuality is only a choice. Do I think someone just wakes up one day and says I want to be a Homosexual? No. I think it is serious of choices someone makes throughout their lifes.
Just as someone who turns to a sinful life of prostitution or gambling or drinking or anything else. Most dont just jump right into it, it becomes a serious of choices they have made throughout their lives.
Again, neither you nor I can scientifically prove this either way. (without violating a lot of human rights anyhow)
You also speak of this as if “we” are stoping Homosexuals from being in love.
Last time I checked there is no law stoping one man from loving another or one woman from loving another. So that is a mute point. Unless we are talking about Gods law then it is a different story.
I was not here to do anything other than clear up the misconception that Christians hate Gay people.
My entire point is that there is a big difference between hating someone who is gay and not accepting or tolerating the sinful act of Homosexuality.
This is something Phelps seems to have missed.
That was all, until Damoon chose to engage in a discussion about scripture which I did.
Hey Nathan,While it’s true that a “gay gene” has yet to be identified, a number of studies have shown that “gayness” can be predicted with almost 90% accuracy before the age of four, which goes a long way toward demonstrating that it’s congenital.Regarding the “ex-gay ministries,” I have a friend, a psychologist, who’s making a good living taking the wreckage they leave behind and putting them back together again as people who are comfortable with their gayness.Maybe you just don’t understand, but your quoting those particular passages promotes the idea that gays are fair game for bashing and a host of other abuse! If that’s all your christian beliefs can offer, please keep them to yourself.
Jed,
What study is this that can predict within 90% accuracy if someone is going to be gay?
Exactly how do those verses say that gays are fair game for bashing and a host of other abuse?
I don’t know about the rest of you, but my Bible doesn’t say what was quoted here. It appears to me that someone is putting a context there that doesn’t happen to be there. I knew something was awry when I saw the word “homosexuality” quoted as being in the Bible. Not so. Is Phelps the author of this other Bible, perhaps?
Nola,
Which translation of the Bible are you using?
I am using the New American Standard Bible (NASB) which just happens to be one of the most accurate english translations of the Bible.
It is also a Key Word Study bible too. So we could look at the Greek and Hebrew too if you would like?
Nathan, Why do you presume I’m a Christian because I said I would pray for you? Just because I’m not a Christan doesn’t mean I don’t believe in God. I was raised in a strict Catholic family, I went to parochial school and attended church everyday until I graduated at the age of 18. Believe me, I had enough Christian ideology to last me a lifetime. I do believe Jesus was a good man who taught us about loving our neighbor as ourselves, I just don’t happen to believe he was God. I hope this clears thing up a bit for you.There are studies that do suggest sexual orientation is predisposed, but the fundamentalists will deny it to the end. I don’t feel something has to be “proven” to me in order to believe in my heart that it’s true. I’m surprized that you even believe in God, since there is no “proof” that He exists! Or is your faith something that you just know in your heart?
Interesting…The Greek word (Arsencopuloi) which is translated as homosexuality by biblical translators, is a very rare word in non-biblical texts, but in the few we have, the context leads us to believe that it refers to the practice you christians so charitably call”temple prostitution.” Actually, that translation fits better with the theme of Romans than as homosexuality, a practice the Greeks had no word for, since they didn’t make that distinction.
By the way, Nathan, welcome back! We’ve missed you!
Damoon,
You want to talk about what Jesus said? Jesus said he was the son of God. You cant pick and choose what you want to. Either Jesus was a Liar, a Lunatic or the Lord.
So what “god” do you believe in then?
Besides the point I suppose…
As far as “Proof” goes for my belief in God, it lies in the supernatural, which is not “scientific.”
Again, besides the point. This does nothing to further that Homosexuality is not a choice.
My main reason for thinking you were Christian was because you were talking to me about scripture as if you actually believed it. I was wrong. Which is why I now understand your lack of scriptural knowledge.
I think the subject was Fred Phelps.Are you for Fred Phelps Nathan? I think you are. And if you are then why dance around it? Why not simply be as honest (if maniaichal) as Phelps and admit that your “God” says it’s ok to hate and persecute people.
JR,
If you actually read the posts on this blog you would have seen that I said:
“As a Christian I am not supposed to hate Homosexuals.
There is a big difference in not accepting sin and hating the sinner which it appears Phelps did not grasp.”
Now how you get that I support Phelps from that I dont know.
When did I ever say that God says it is ok to hate and persecute people?
I have already said, just as I quoted myself as saying before that:
“As a Christian I am not supposed to hate Homosexuals.”
Do you even bother to read before you start posting?
Ah, I see. We’re dealing with “translations” of the Bible. God didn’t mention to me that the NASB was the most accurate translation into English. I wonder who determined that? If you have ever tried translating one language to another you should know that direct translations are pretty much impossible, and therefore subject to the interpretation of the translators. The Bible has been translated umpty-stump times by many persons. To attempt to put an absolute literal meaning to much of the Bible and apply it to current circumstances is to simply acquire many of the prejudices of all of the persons who have translated it. I can not believe that is what God had in mind. Unfortunately, He/She has not seen fit to provide me with a copy of the original work. I would be unable to translate it anyway, and if I could, it would certainly include my personal slant on the course of events.
Just because I’m not a Christian doesn’t mean I don’t have knowlege of the bible. Jesus said he was the son of God (he never said he WAS God), we are ALL the children of God. Think about what you’re saying before you say it, Nathan
Again, I said homosexual orientation is not a choice, but sexual behavior is. I think you and Fred Phelps need to put your Christian ideals to more positve pursuits, not to the agenda of tearing others down because they don’t adhere to what you interpet as God’s word.
Nola,
You are sadly mistakin. The overall translated accuracy of the Bible is 99.8%.
There is a difference between different translations of the Bible in only the way they present the information.
The verses I quoted or any other for that instance all mean the same thing, but can be written different ways in English.
The NIV does a more overall picture translation to make it more readable.
The NASB does a more word for word translation, which is why it is the most accurate, not becasue it presents anything different, but becuase it does a word for word translation.
If you would simply tell me what version of the bible you are using I could show you that even though it might not say “Homosexual” it probably says something along the lines of:
Men committing sexual acts with men…etc…etc…
Same thing, just written differently in English is all.
Most of the Bible translations we use are translated from the originals documents. There is not a error from retranslation of previous translations upon translations.
It must be wonderful to know all of these things with such certainty. My question was, and still is, in whose authority does this certainty lie? Who declared that there is a 99.8% accuracy in the translated texts of the Bible, which is tricky since they don’t all actually say the same things? The one I was perusing, by the way, was a Gideon. I read a wonderful quote today, which I’d like to pass on. “Fools are more to be feared than the wicked.” Queen Christina of Sweden (1626-1689) That statement holds true in every corner of this world as nearly as I can tell.
Damoon,
You might have some knowledge of the Bible, but you seemed to think that only levitcus condemnded Homosexuality and you were wrong.
Anyhow,
These are things Jesus said:
John 14:7″If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
Luke 22:67And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
Why do you think Jesus was hung? Because we are all children of God?
No. Becuase he claimed to be the messiah!
John 8:24″Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 11:25-27Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed
John 14:11″Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
I dont know how much more clear it can be withing the entire context of the New Testament.
What exactly was Jesus in your opinion then? Just an ordinary man?
The scripture clearly indicates otherwise.
Nola,
Do you even accept the Bible as the word of God?
If not then this entire conversation is pointless between the two of us.
You’re right, Nathan, we wont see eye to eye on this subject. I just wanted to express my opinion. I respect Christianity, growing up in a Lutheran home, but I feel persecuting gays as if homosexuality is more of a sin than any other mentioned in the Bible is wrong. And I feel that depriving loving couples of joint adoption, hospital visit rights and power of attorney without hiring expensive legal help (not to mention tax breaks) is wrong. Love is love is love. We need more of it in this era.Again, I respect your views, and wish you a long, happy, healthy life.
Damoon,
What God do you believe in? My God has given me the scriptures which clearly tell me that Homosexuality is a sin.
It has nothing to do with what “I” interpret. It is clearly written.
I dont expect you to agree with it, since you dont agree with anything in the bible which doesnt suit your views.
You seem to only quote what supports you and ignore the rest.
I am not tearing anyone down. I dont accept the practice of Homosexuality just like you dont accept the practice of worshiping Jesus.
I have said over and over again in this thread that Phelps doesnt get the difference between hating a person and not approving of their sin.
How hard is it to grasp that concept? I know it is hard for phelps, but what is it you dont understand about that?
I am a Christian, but I deplore the actions of Fred and his gang. For me, it is wrong for him to do what he does. Protesting at a person’s funeral is just about as low as you can go. What he and his group do is WRONG!
Does it say in the Bible that protesting a person’s funeral because they’re gay is wrong? I haven’t read anywhere that it does. Common sense (aka conscience) will tell you that it is.
Some on here have lumped all Christians in with FP. That’s a gross assumption and a stereotype that is just based on ignorance. Any time a person stereotypes a group of people, and believes the stereotype applies to every person in that group, it is wrong. My hope is that FP is a great minority among groups claiming to know God.
Protesting someone because he was a womanizer, or because he/she embezzeled money, or because he/she beat their spouse would also be wrong because we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Fred Phelps needs to remove the huge log in his eye before he able to judge anyone else. In other words, we need to avoid judging other people.
There is a place for tough love, however.
Our jihad will make your Phred Felps look like a sweet guy. Woe to the defenders of vile abominations against sharia’. We will strike down the last of them.
Nathan, I have read the bible, and what I’ve learned is that God seems to be whatever you want him to be. To Fred Phelps, God is hate-filled. To many others, God is love. When it comes to the homosexuality issue, it appears you agree with the former. The name of your religion derives from the name of the Lord you are asked to follow in the bible, so why do you not follow his teachings?
The bible you speak so highly of was written by men in a time when some things we abhor were the norm and is subject to the opinions of the men writing it. Since that time, the book and books within have undergone many translations and changes. King James himself tossed out the things he didn’t subscribe to. Upon close examination, the bible, in its present state, can be interpreted in many different ways, hence the number of denominations of Christianity and churches and branches of each. Your interpretation is just that–yours. It may be right. It may be wrong. But you have the freedom and the right, in this country, to interpret it and follow it to your desire. Within the laws of the land, that is.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Where in that sentence does it say “heterosexual men?” Where in that sentence does it say “God?”
Women in this country fought for and received equality. Do you believe they shouldn’t have and that women should be subservient to men? Is that not what the bible teaches you? Blacks in this country fought for and received equality. Do you beleive, as Fred Phelps does, that blacks are a subservient race because they were the sons of Ham, the son of Noah?
Pick and choose, Nathan.
RD,
Obviously you are not familiar with the Bible. You still don’t understand how it has been translated.
It is not some game of telephone where the message has been spread between so many people that the original is no longer decipherable.
Yes there are many different Christian denominations. Most all agree on the same basic things the Bible says and teaches. It is only on more complicated issues like Rapture, Baptism of the Spirit, Calvinism vs. Armenism…etc etc where there are differences.
Either way, those differences are not necessarily based on scripture translation, but scripture interpretation.
The Greek and Hebrew say the same thing regardless of how some denominations put focus on or emphasis on different scripture.
This is all beside the point.
What everyone here keeps trying to do is change the subject.
I have quoted you the scripture which clearly says Homosexuality is wrong.
Either you can refute that scripture or quote something else.
None of you seem to be able to do this so you keep trying to evade that and attack the Bible in different ways.
RD,
Do you even believe what the Bible says anyhow? If you don’t then what ever you think about any particular scripture doesn’t even matter since you disagree with what it says.
You try to tell me that I think God is hate filled? Where did I ever say that?
I have said (and this will be the 4th time now) that Phelps doesn’t understand the difference between hating the sinner and not condoning the sin.
How many times do I have to say it?
I don’t agree with Phelps. I think he is wrong.
There is nothing in the Bible that Phelps can use to justify his position (legitimately anyhow)
Just because someone says they are a Christian and that they are doing what the Bible says doesn’t make it right or true.
That is why I say lets look at the scripture.
You ask me why I don’t follow the teachings of Jesus. I do. What teachings of his don’t I follow? On top of that all of Jesus teachings were written and recorded by the very same men you seem to think were only writing their opinions.
God hates sin. God doesn’t hate people. This is the most basic thing you can get from reading the Bible, one that I will say again:
Phelps is not following the Bible by hating people. He doesn’t seem to understand the difference between hating people and not approving of their sin.
Do I need to say it again?
RD,
I dont have any problem with equal rights at all.
What exactly are you refrencing from the Bible when you think that I would think that Women are suposed to be subservient to men?
Lets look at the scripture. If you want to talk about what I believe then we will look at what the scripture says. So feel free to quote to me the scripture you seem to think would indicate what you say.
I was rather intrigued with both Nathan’s and Shadid’s statements, and how amazingly alike they were. They are indicative that scripture (bible, Koran, etc.), or any other book, for that matter, doesn’t change people; people change the books. Mean-spirited people see a mean-spirited god, and loving people find a loving one. Scripture simply becomes a mirror for anyone looking into it.
Holeycripes theres a letter from a Commie pinco Arab on this page! It’s just like that guy Joe said on that other page! The Arabs are infiltering this site!I’ll tell you one thing mr shabid Our Great President is going to make short-shirt out of you religous fanatical Arabs. You just wait! And when our Great President Bush gets through slaughtering you in Afghanistan and Iraq, he’ll probably slaughter you some more in Iran just for some more good measure. And mr shibid you picked the wrong page to play with considering there are Patriots here. Why I’ll bet that Nathan guy can stop you dead in your traks just by reading to you from the Bible. He sure writes good. Mom says he sounds like a fag but I don’t understand that at all. Not after all that stuff he said about the homos in the Bible.And Jed just because Nathan may be mean-spirited doesn’t mean God is mean. And that guy shabid, well he’s one of those mideasters and doesn’t matter anyway.
Jed,
I see that you didnt answer my questions. figures.
Anyhow, how are my statements anything like Shadid’s?
I have quoted to you exactly what the scripture says. I have not changed it and it is not some mirror reflecting what I want it too.
If you have a problem with what those verses say then lets hear it.
Why does everyone try to take some covert path around what the scripture clearly says?
I am not making that stuff up, it is not my opinion, it is not my interpretation, it is not my translation. It is clearly written as I have posted.
Lets focus on what it says instead of trying to covertly say that it is only me making it say what I want it too.
I never accused you of making up anything, but it is your opinion, reflected by your choice of verse and the emphasis you put on it. Further, it would have been your opinion even without those verses. What you do is what most people do; you find those passages that fit your predetermined position, in order to lend authority to it, and then say “I’m just quoting scripture.” Unfortunately, you can usually find something to back up any hatred you want to promote. Back in the ’60’s, I had to listen to a lot of you quoting passages to justify racism and war. “Kill a commie for Christ!” This anti-gay campaign is no different. What you’re doing with the bible is no different than what Shahid is doing with the Koran- gleaning it for anything that justifies your particular prejudices.
Hey Bing,You really ought to look at a few of your own prejudices. I have Muslim friends that certainly don’t deserve your remarks anymore than Nathan needs you (or your mama) calling him a “homo,” which is also pretty offensive to the gay community! In case you’re curious, I also have many good Christian friends. My beef isn’t with Jesus, just with the behavior of too many of his supposed followers.
Jed, you only think you have muslim friends. Google the words “taqiyya” and “kitman”.
Well Jed I’ll have you know that I’m not prejudiced at all! Heck I got lots of black friends. And I did NOT say that Nayhan guy was a homo. Mom keeps saying that but I’m pretty sure she’s wrong. But I sure want to appoligize to you and the rest of the gay folks cause I sure got no beef with them.Jed I did just like that ms Edna said and had my cousin Reggie show me that google thing about taqiyya and kitman. Boy, you better watch those muslim friends of yours. I always thought that Mahmood guy down at the convenience store where I buy my beer was a pretty nice guy but I’ll sure be watching him a lot closer from now on.You got Christian friends too? That must keep you pretty busy what with all them Muslim and Gay and Christian friends. Most of my friends are just regular folks and I don’t ask them about their religion or sex.
Hey Bing,Yeah, it does keep me pretty busy, but it sure is fun! I decided decades ago that hanging out with people who were just like me was boring; I already knew what they were about. So, over the years, I’ve gotten to know people from nearly every religion, ethnic group, age, sexual orientation, class, political stripe and educational level. It’s been a wonderful experience!Regarding Edna’s post, there are many Muslims, just like many Christians, who don’t accept religious elitism and hatred. Unfortunately, the islamist movement, which is in so many ways similar to the christian fundamentalist movement, pretty much defines what most Americans know about Islam. They don’t speak for the majority of Muslims any more than Fred Phelps speaks for all Christians.You need to get out more!
Well Jed you sound like youre in a lot better mood now and I’m glad. I dont hang around with people like me either. Mom says theres nobody like me and then she laughs. I dont know why thats funny. With all those different kinds of friends you must travel a lot or something. I guess I just never got bored with my old friends cause Ive known most of them all my life and I just never thought of getting different ones. They do just fine.Im going to have to think about that last part of your letter because I don’t really understand all of it especially the part about religious eletism and hate because if you’re a good Christian you shouldnt hate anybody, but like I said, I gotta think about it.And I didnt really think all Arabs are bad just those ones who want to kill us. If my friend Tarik is fooling me hes sure doing a good job.And I probably should not go out at all cause it makes my girlfriend mad when I go out with the guys.
Oh, and Jed. See how much better it when we talk friendly to eachouther? Seems like folks can solve a lot of problems when they don’t yell.
Bing, you are one funny guy!!
Why thankyou ms Damoon, I think. Some of those other people have kind of been snappy at me so I really dont know when someone is joshing me or not. I try to talk nice and be friendly and all but they sure get cranky with me. They all act like my cranky Grandma. Ms Damoon, do you suppose theyre all iregular like Grandma Pickner? I told that Ski guy to try some Prune juce but that just made him madder. I was only trying to help. Ms Damoon you sure got a nice name if Im saying it right. You sound a lot like my girlfriend Maya. She dont take any guff off nobody either.I hope you keep writing letters on the blogs ms Damoon. I’ve read everything youve wrote. Sometimes I dont agree with everything you say and some of it I just dont really understand but you sure give them willy-hell sometimes just like my Maya when people stare at us cause were not the same color. But ms Damoon I think your probably a real nice lady.
Thank you, Bing. I try hard to be nice even though it is sometimes very challenging for me. I do believe we gather more bees with honey than vinegar. I admit I do get a kick out of the way all the boys like to fight, reminds me of when my own to preadolescent boys used to tear the living room apart trying to kill each other. I have really enjoyed your posts, keep up the great work!!!
Nathan, you asked me what God I believe in. I believe that God is the life force that is all living things. God is everywhere if we just choose to look. I know my beliefs are more abstract compared to your view of God, but I don’t know how else to explain myself. I don’t like organized religion, but I believe in spirtuality and that each person has his or her own unique idea of God. I was raised a Christian, and it always bothered me when I observed Christians use the bible to justify their narrow mindedness. By using the bible as their weapon, they didn’t have to take personal responsibility for their bigotry, hatred, or intolerance, they could just thump their bible and rationalize that they were merely echoing “God’s word”. Most of the time it was just an excuse to condemn those that they feared or didn’t understand. As I said in my earlier posts. I don’t believe that Jesus was God, but that he was an extraordinary man who tried to teach us how to love each other. To bad so many of his followers don’t practice what he preached, but merely twist the meaning behind his words to further their own self interests.
Nathan posted: “You try to tell me that I think God is hate filled? Where did I ever say that?”
Nathan, please re-read what I wrote. I used the word “appear.” In other words, what you are saying could lead one to believe…
Nathan again: “As a Christian I am not supposed to hate Homosexuals.”
I understand that, although I have yet to see you post that you do not hate homosexuals. It seems (note the word “seems”, very similar to “appears”)like a copout to me. Whether you are supposed to do or not do something is not the issue. The question now is, do you hate homosexuals? I’m truly hoping you say no, because I want to believe you’re the good, Christian person you say you are.
Sorry, but my bible is packed with my other books…those books I do NOT intend to dispose of. Moving requires packing, you see, but I don’t need to keep it at hand to quote verbatim. Nor do I need to have passages memorized that suit the occasion or argument. I understand what it says.
“Love they neighbor as thyself.”
“Judge not lest ye be judged.”
And then there’s the Golden Rule, endorsed by all the great world religions. If Jesus, Hillel, and Confucius used it to summarize their ethical teachings, maybe we should try doing the same.
My apologies to you and anyone else–of whatever religion…or not–if the discussion has taken a wrong turn. I think we all agree that Fred Phelps could use a little of his own preaching.
You,know, it always makes me wonder, every time I hear a christian say ” We hate the sin, but love the sinner.” I believe you’re also admonished to love your enemies, a love you tend to express with large quantities of high explosives! Just what is this double-think that allows you to kill the people you say you love?I’ve known several gay men who, as teenagers, came out to their ministers, and were told that god considered suicide a lesser sin than homosexuality. Luckily, they didn’t take that advice. I’ll always wonder how many kids did, and how many ministers chose that solution for dealing with their feelings about homosexuality.Some love!
Oh, and Nathan,You were upset that I didn’t answer your question about the studies on predicting homosexuality? I assumed you weren’t really interested in reading them, since all that information is just a google away, along with a lot of valid info that somehow never made it into the bible. If you really are, go read it, and then get back to me.
Damoon,
All those example you gave are of “Christians” not doing the Christian thing.
That is not the point at hand. I can tell you about bad people in all sorts of different religions. Beside the point.
The point is that I am not just quoting scripture to support my view.
My view comes from what the scripture says.
I have yet to see anyone of you who try to claim that I am twisting the scripture or whatever you want to call it show me how those verses I quoted are wrong or how I am just twisting them.
Why do you think Jesus was just an extraordinary man?
Where do you get you information on Jesus teachings?
The only place I know of is the Bible. So it appears as if you are the one who selects only the things you want to from the Bible to support your view.
I have shown you the scripture which shows Christ as the son of God and as god himself.
Why do you condemn others for not practicing what Christ preached when you dont either?
RD,
Um… I thought it was pretty obvious what my stance was, but I apologize. I didnt realize that all you wanted me to do was say:
I dont hate Homosexuals.
Here you go:
I dont hate Homosexuals.
I dont understand why you qouted these two verses?
“Love they neighbor as thyself.”
“Judge not lest ye be judged.”
What does this have to do with the converstaion?
I agree with them 100%. Unless you are saying that Phelps is not following them? I agree with that too.
You still never told me what teachings of Jesus I am not following…
Jed,
Can you give me an example of how Christians show our love with high explosives?
If that was the case dont you think that there would be much more death since there are billions of Christians?
Jed,
It is not my job to go find the evidence to support your statements.
Either you can back up what you say or you cant.
Nathan, I may not be a Christian, but I live the values better than many Christians I know. You want an example of how you choose not to follow scripture?”Put your sword back in it’s place; for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” Matthew 26.32 Aren’t you in the Marines? Is that following Jesus’s instruction? It seems to me you only selectivly quote the scripture to support your point of view, also.
Damoon,
Again: I dont quote scripture to support my point of view. I quote what the scripture says.
I have yet to see you try to tell me how the verses I quoted were out of context or were wrong.
You and others keep going around the issue.
Please tell me how the verses I quoted dont mean what they say?
Besides, the verse is Matthew 26:52 not 26:32…
There is a wonderful thing called context. If you have actually read the entire New Testament you would have seen where John the Baptist instructed both the Tax Collectors and Soldiers to go back and:
“Do not take any money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely and be content with your wages”
Luke 3:15
In that verse it is absolutely clear that being in a soldiers profession is acceptable as long as you are not doing anything beyond your duties or wrongfull.
In the verse you quoted you are trying to stretch it to mean that somehow I am taking up the sword by being in the Marines. When I am not doing anything more than those soldiers who gave their lifes to Christ did and were baptized by John the Baptist.
Unless you can tell me how that verse applies to me?
I see you continue to prove my point that your knowledge of scripture is lacking and that all you seem to be able to do is pull out whatever you can in a vain attempt to attack me.
Which is yet again off topic. The topic is Homosexuality. I have quoted you the verses. They are clear in their meaning. If you have a problem with them then you have a problem with the Bible, not my interpretations or points of view.
I’m sorry I guess Marines don’t take up swords, they use GUNS!!! God, I’m SO stupid!!!! After all, you are just “telling us what the scriptures say”. With your rationalizations, I’m sure Jesus would have not only have approved of carrying weapons, but also dropping bombs and killing innocent women and children, as long as you are DOING YOUR DUTY!!!!!
PS I have read the entire New Testament, I just don’t buy your arrogant interpetation of it.
Damoon,
You keep telling me it is only my interpretation. I have yet to see you show me how. If what I am qouting means something else, please let me know.
I have yet to see you offer a counter to what I am qouting.
For your information, Jesus did approve of carrying swords. How do you think his followers had them if he didnt approve?
My point was not that swords and guns are different, but that you cant explain to me how that verse applies to me in the Marines.
If you read the entire New Testament you would see that there is no contextual basis to say that my being in the Marines is wrong.
If you have read the entire New Testament why did you only think that Leviticus would be where scriptures said something against Homosexuality?
Why didnt you know the verses where Jesus did claim to be God and where he is called the son of God and the entire contextual basis for his divinity?
Since you have read the entire New Testament perhaps you have read the scripture which tells us to be in subjection to the governing authorities?
That is as long as you are not going against any of Gods commands, because Gods law is above mans.
Perhaps you have not read the entire New Testament or you just didnt care to remember the parts that dont support your point of view?
And yet again you dont even bother to try to explain what those verses about Homosexuality I originally qouted “really” mean.
Hey Nathan,Well, let’s see, where to begin….Just in recent history, I suppose we could start with Nam, and “kill a commie for Christ,”moving on to Northern Ireland and Lebanon, and then the religious wars in the Balkans, and progressing to Iraq I, etc. Sure, there were political reasons for some of them too, but you christians were sure pushing hard on the religious motives. Between times, you managed to keep in practice with the occasional doctor shootings, clinic and gay bar bombings, cross burnings, general mayhem and anonymous threats. Busy busy busy! Lotsa love to spread around!
It’s been a long time, Nathan, since I’ve read the New Testament. One of the reasons I can’t be a Christian is the constant hypocrisy. Jesus preached love, told people to put away their swords, blessed the peacemakers, told us to love our enemies, turn the other cheek, etc. But then you point out scripture that says it’s not against his teachings to carry a gun and go to war. I think anyone can find justification for practically anything in the bible. I choose to live my life with a conscience and the ideal of loving and doing goood for my fellow man. I absolutely cannot blindly follow or support a leader who goes to war for the wrong reasons. I could never be a part of mindless killing for power and control. Maybe it’s just the basic differences between men and women.Good luck with your bible and military career.”Hatreds do not ever cease in this world by hating, but by love; this is the eternal truth…Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving, overcome the liar by truth”. Dhammapada 1.5 & 17.3
Nathan, first, thank you for clearly stating that you do not hate homosexuals. It gives me hope. Now if you would just remove your blinders… And, no, please don’t ask me to explain. You wouldn’t understand.
BTW, Damoon, excellent post, but probably a complete waste of time. How sad.
RD,
If you refer to Gods word as blinders then they will never be removed.
Damoon,
I am sorry that all you see is hypocracy when you read the New Testament.
Anyone can find justification in anything, not just the Bible, but they dont do so by doing what the scripture says but by twisting it to their purposes. That is why I have said over and over again it is what the scripture says that is important.
I have been reading the conversation about homosexuality. As a Christian and person who has struggled with homosexuality in the past I can say it is a choice. I was in a relationship with another girl on and off for a year. In that time my relationship with God continued to grow and develop and everyday He showed me new things about life. For one it isn’t about me it is about Him. Also, I experienced the greatest love I could have ever asked for. My willingness to give up the most important person in my life for God was the hardest thing I ever had to do. But, it was worth it. It is a daily struggle I have to over come, I know I cannot do it by myself, only God and other belivers will give me the strength I have to say NO! One day I want to have a loving marrage and children. It is what God’s plans for me are. Not to be with another woman, it is sin and sexual sin just like any other sin. It is no better or no worse but it is still wrong.
Dear P.,I of course support your right to choose your orientation, even if I doubt your ability. What bothers me is the vast self-hatred expressed in your letter, and the society that imposed that on you. I must ask, though, with all the hatred in the world, if any god that demands that you abandon the person you truly love is worthy of your respect?
Jed… there was no hatred in my letter it was just stating that I have been on both sides of the fence. I feel for both Chirstians and homosexuals alike. And yes, God is worth my respect because I know that it isn’t about me, it is about Him. I was put on this earth by my creator to get into heaven. That is our only purpose in this life. This is just a blink of an eye compared to the eternity in heaven. I gave up the person I love because it isn’t in his will. His love will fill any void, His love is everlasting.
So, all this pain and suffering is just a final exam in a get-into-heaven game? Sorry, there’re enough control freaks and manipulaters in this world; I really don’t want to spend eternity with one!You say that sexual orientation is a choice, but then you’ve bought into a world-view that offers no legitimate choices- you do what you’re told, or burn for eternity! Sorry, that’s not love, it’s coercion. Is your god really that insecure?
Jed,
You only further you display of complete ignorance on the teachings of Christ and what the Bible says.
P. Davis I have no doubt that your homosexual relationship was a choice, but your orientation isn’t. Otherwise it wouldn’t be a stuggle to give it up and you wouldn’t continue to feel the temptation. God made you who you are, if you think you can be in a hetrosexual relationship and be happy in it, then good for you. I really think you’ll be just be denying who you really are. My nephew tried the same thing and he was married for 10 yrs and had a child, but in the end he had to realize he just couldn’t do it anymore. Before you get into a relationship where others might get hurt, you need to be really honest with yourself. I wish you the best of luck, but I feel sad that you have so much shame about your feelings and your true sexual orientation.
Damoon,
Here you have someone who has experienced what we have been talking about and you have the audacity to tell them they are wrong?
LOL
I suppose you would tell an alcoholic that he shouldn’t deny who he is. He was created to love alcohol so why not drink?
Dont fight your feelings just live in a life of drunkeness!
“I feel sad that you have so much shame about your feelings and your true alcoholic nature.”
Give me a break.
Hey Nathan,In case you weren’t looking, I wasn’t speaking about Christ or the bible, but about the particular interpretation she was attaching to them. And before you get all bent out of shape over that word, ALL world-views are interpretations; otherwise, all scripture is is just a bunch of squiggly lines on a bundle of processed sawdust!
Nathan, so homosexuality is a disease?
I don’t remember telling P. Davis she was wrong, I just suggested she be honest with herself so she and others don’t get hurt. An alcoholic is an alcoholic, just because he quits drinking doesn’t mean he is no longer alcoholic. A gay person is a gay person, whether or not they act on their sexual feelings or not. NO, (before you start accusing me)I don’t believe that homosexuality is a disease like alcoholism. It’s just a variation in sexuality that people are born predisposed to. I’m willing to bet that I know far more gay people than you do, what I’ve learned from almost all of them is that sexual feelings are nothing they choose. I’m sorry you’re so concrete in your thinking that you can’t seem to grasp this concept. I’LL SAY THIS REAL LOUD SO YOU CAN HEAR ME, SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS NOT A CHOICE, BUT SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IS. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO.
Damoon,
That is lovely. Besides the “feeling” in your heart do you have anything to back up sexual orientation not being a choice?
I am only concrete in my thinking because it is clearly written in the scripture.
I was not saying homosexuality is a disease. It was only a comparison to “try” to show how rediculous it is to say what you did.(obviously it didnt work, I will be more direct next time)
I dont know about you knowing more Gay people than me.
I know quite a few. Happen to have worked with a couple of wonderful gay guys for 2 years.
Regardless, you can find Gay people like P. Davis that say it is a choice and they choose different.
That’s true, sexual behavior IS a choice, but for someone to seek out a hetersexual relationship, when their sexual orientation is homosexual, that’s being dishonest with themselves and the other person in the relationship. It’s not fair to either one. Like I said before, that’s how people get hurt. I’ve seen it happen too many times. People who are just honest with themselves rather than try to be something they’re not generally are more happy.
Hey Nathan, Damoon,Sexual orientation isn’t quite the either/or situation that you seem to want to portray it; it’s a continuum. I’ve known people who identify as straight who have occasional gay relationships and vice versa. I’ve also known both gay and straight people for whom a relationship outside their identified orientation would be absolutely unthinkable, as well as people who identify as bisexual. Even within all those groups there is quite a variety of preferences. The point being that everybody should butt out of their neighbor’s love lives!Orientation appears to be fixed by early childhood at the latest, and nobody has found a way to change it, or even a legitimate reason to!The ex-gay shills have claimed a few sucesses from somewhere in the middle of the continuum, but they’ve destroyed far more people than they’ve “helped.”So again, as long as it’s consenting adults, butt out! As my dear old daddy used to say, love is where you find it- be happy that they have!
You are so right, Jed. Sexuality not black or white, gay or straight. As long as no one is getting hurt, people have the right to love whom they choose. We all have the right to be happy with the life partner of our choice. Gay people should have all the rights that straight people have. No exceptions, that’s what living in this country is all about, freedom.
P. Davis,Thanks for being honest. Your trust in Christ is admirable. It sounds like you know what God wants for your life, so I say continueon along the path God is taking you.
P. Davis,I just reread your posts and I’m just impressed with what God has done in your life! Other Christians can learn a LOT about discipline and how to deal with our sins. Have you considered writing a book?
I have yet to bring this up, but here it goes.
Do those of you who support the exact same rights for Homosexuals as Heterosexuals support Poligamists rights, beastiality rights, incest rights,and in some cases pedophilia rights?
Just curious on your thougths about those “sexual orientations”…
I’ve said it before, but here goes again- What CONSENTING ADULTS do about their relationships is not the state’s business.In some cases, polygamous and polyandrous relationships have worked, and in other cases they haven’t. I certainly don’t need that amount of tension, but some people seem to thrive on it. Any such marriage license should probably carry an appropriate Surgeon-General’s warning.Besiality? If someone wants to marry their cat, and the cat’s over 18 and you can prove it’s informed consent, hey, go for it! Who’s it hurting? The kittens?Incest, I suppose, is a bit trickier, but the geneticists seem to feel that if it doesn’t become a family tradition, no harm done. It does have the potential for becoming a power trip, but then, so does conventional marriage under certain circumstances.Pedophilia, on the other hand, involves someone who is not an adult and who by definition cannot give informed consent, and is always a power trip! Marriage is a contract, and we’ve already determined that children may not enter into a legal contract. Any parent who consents to such a contract for a child needs to be summarily shot!Also, none of the above constitutes a sexual orientation in the sense that homo/hetero do, and really shouldn’t be discussed as similar. On the other hand, transexual identification, which you didn’t mention, does seem to fit the category, and our state’s practice of denying them appropriate I.D. as such is unconscionable, to say the least!You wanted my opinion, and you may not like it, but you got it!
As I continue my walk with Christ I learn new lessons that will help me and I am sure other Christians through difficult times. As far as writing a book, I am only 20 and I feel God has a lot more to show me before I would ever consider writing. But, I do intetend to share some of what I have learned thus far through youth ministry. I feel God has laid it on my heart to make a change in the world through the eyes of little ones who are dealing with much more difficult experiences then I could ever imagine. But thank you for knowing I am doing the right thing by walking down God’s path not the path of the world. And as for Jed… What I did was wrong and you could consider what I am doing as playing God’s game. But unlike any other game the winner gets eternal life. If you don’t want to play you will die not just death but eternal death. God created everything and gives you everything you have even if you don’t believe. It is his right to take it from you… your life isn’t yours, when you learn that you cannot control it because you are not incharge you will be a much happier person.
Hey P.,You, of course, are free to choose the life you wish to lead, as long as you extend that right to others as well.I simply dislike games of any sort, and refuse to play them. Any god that would punish someone for that doesn’t earn my respect, and if that punishment is eternal death, so be it! Eternity’s too damn long to hang around anyway.My conception of God is entirely different than yours. Sorry.
Jed…
You intrigue me, I guess I have so many questions for you about your understanding of how the world works. I guess the first thing would be how do you think you got here, evolution, Adam and Eve, or otherwise? Next I would ask what would you have to lose by trying? I think you should ready Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life. You don’t have time to play games but maybe you would have time to read it. I am not in anyway saying your views are wrong because they are not like mine, who am I to judge. I just think you could give this book a chance, it clearly describes God’s plans for your life and might help you understand why Christians believe the way they do. You seem like a good person with many ideals I would like to learn about, I feel like talking to others not only helps understand them, it also helps you understand yourself better.
Hey P.,I’m currently in the middle of “The Road to Reality,” by Roger Penrose, one of the world’s most emminent physicists. It’s an ungodly thick and complex book, explaining his reformulation of superstring theory. I’m also very much looking forward to the new Harry Potter book, so it’ll be a while before I get around to anything else.Evolution has always made much more sense to me than any of the other explanations, but I also collect creation myths. One of the most beautiful I’ve found is in Tolkein’s “The Silmarilion,” and it correlates surprisingly well with superstring theory. Try it sometime!Although I don’t identify as a Christian, I’m not opposed to Christianity, or any other religion, for that matter; what I’m fighting is hatred, and I seem to find a lot more of it than I expected in the Christian leadership, especially in the more conservative branches. I wish they would find their way out of it, but I don’t hold out much hope- it’s too easy a tool to rally the troops and raise money!I agree with you about talking with each other- we really need to do a lot more of it!
Nathan, to anwer your earlier post, I’m not sure how you can compare incest, child molestation, beastiality, or polygamy, to homosexuality. Homosexuality doesn’t victimize others or cause damage. Two gay people in a committed relationship who have normal lives like most of us are no threat to anyone or anything. Your comparing apples to doorknobs. I know, I know, the bible “forbids” it, but when was the last time you ate pork or shellfish, or sacrificed a bull to God because you touched your mother’s bed while she was on her period? You won’t even put your sword away like Jesus told you too!!!
Damoon,
Just when I thought you couldn’t possibly be more misunderstanding of the scripture…
I know you told me you have studied the Bible. Really now, these are some of the most basic things any Christian or someone who has studied the Bible should know the answer to.
Would you like for me to show you the scripture in the New Testament which says why it is ok to eat pork and shellfish or the scripture to show you why those rules don’t apply?
I’ll give you the summary:
We are under a new covenant. When Jesus was sent to die for our sins, he was the ultimate sacrifice. No more need to sacrifice animals for cleansing of our sins.
Those rules were written for a different time and different people. When Jesus came he came to fullfill the law.
Would you like me to show you all the verses?
What you call child molestation many other countries consider to be lawful and legal age for marriage? Who are you to push your morals on others…
What you call damaging, many people find poligamy to be a very rewarding and loving relation. Who are you to push your morals on them…
Don’t you know in your heart that incest is something people are born with?
Don’t you know in your heart that loving young children is something people are born with?
Don’t you know in your heart that attraction to animals is something you are born with?
Don’t you know in your heart that the desire to have multiple wives is something you are born with?
Who are we to try to deny them love?
Nathan the only difference between you and Phelps is that he at least is an honest, homophobic, sanctimonius holier than thou, bigot.
JR,
Stick with the name calling. It suits you well in the absense of any real well thought out discourse on your part.