Wichita’s libertarian leanings are being tested by the two-pronged assault on X-rated businesses. The efforts by the Wichita City Council, led by Mayor Carlos Mayans, to more tightly restrict where and how sex-related businesses can operate by the end of the year seem reasonable enough, especially in areas such as Old Town or WaterWalk where the city has invested tax dollars in development. But the First Amendment has always provided such businesses broad protection, and rightly so. And Cap Parlier makes a compelling point in a My View commentary in Wednesday’s Eagle: Aren’t the citizens involved in the Operation Southwind petition “imposing their moral values on private behavior”? Might their time be better spent working through their churches to reduce the demand for pornography?
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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56 Comments
I saw on the KWCH news a few nights ago when they interviewed someone who lived next to an adult bookstore. They said it wasn’t disruptive to the neighborhood until the protesters showed up. I don’t care much for porno, but if there is a market for it and it can be kept a distance from schools and churches, the the protesters need to butt out, or be held liable for damages for disrupting a legal business. I am against a small group of people forcing their beliefs on society. Maybe they should do like Rhonda says and work to reduce the demand. But I guess doing that wouldn’t make the 10:00 news now, would it?
The social conservative movement has been growing and now is doing all it can to push it’s beliefs off on the rest of us, one issue at a time.
I agree with Rhonda, they need to focus their time working with people and trying to change views (nicely, not be force or intimidation) and if they succeed, the business will go away from lack of business.
I’ve not been in the local pron shops but I’m tempted just as a form of protest against a small group trying to tell me what business I can and can’t have in my community. If I (or others) are not interested, we won’t go there.
I hope I’m called to be a member of the grand jury!
I say they should allow all kind of porn shops and strip clubs in Old Town. Mostly young people go down there and with all the recent hotels popping up down there, it will be a big hit with traveling business people.
People in Old Town going to dance clubs are just looking for sex anyways. They shouldn’t mask it as a family place to go, because it is far from it.
Pornography is hurtful to both women and children. It’s addictive and all it does is fuel sick minds. If I only had a dollar for every perpetrator I’ve known in treatment that was addicted to porn. We have enough problems in our society without promoting sexual deviancy.
Once again, I agree with Damoon.
Puhhlease. This is just another attempt by stodgy sanctimonious “church ladies” to try and force their version of morality down everyone else’s throat. Don’t they know that by making “sex” a forbidden fruit they only fuel the fire?
If everyone who visited porn shops became addicted to it, there wouldn’t be enough therapists to do any good. People who are in for treatment who are addicted to porn are probably addicted to other vices, drugs, alcohol, and gambling to name a few. Drugs(prescription drug abuse) alcohol, and gambling are all regulated by state agencies. I have yet to see the social policy police picket a drugstore, liquor store, or casino. But yet these activities can ruin lives, too.
Once again the religious nuts of Kansas are on a crusade to close every form of adult entertainment. Think they mean just the hard-core paces? Think again. Pricilla’s has come under fire. Pretty much anything to do with sex, or nudity, is offensive to the religious nuts of Wichita and Kansas.As reported from the Eagle Topeka bureau, July 21, 2005, “concerned citizens” are petitioning a grand jury to try and enforce anti-obscenity laws. The reason they are not being enforced now is because they really don’t exist.There arguments range from trash coming from a nearby store, to “just not trusting the people who go there.” As a person who occasionally goes to adult entertainment, I don’t trust them. They worship an imaginary friend who encourages them to attack all entertainment for those of us adults who live in this area. They seem to want to run off all non-believers.I’m sure they don’t read much and I doubt if they can. They can read the Bible, which they study a lot and then maybe Chicken Soup for the Soul, by Jack Canfield, a Christian fundamentalists favorite.They don’t read Epicurus, Lucretius, Friedrich Nietzsche or any other writer that might disagree with them.Their real argument is that they hate sex. That is their business, but they don’t need to spread their poison to the rest of us.Some of us don’t care for Christianity or those ostentatious churches they clutter the landscape with. Maybe we should get a grand jury to have those closed down.
I just can’t help it- all I can do is laugh!Aren’t these conservatives who think we need to regulate porn palaces the same ones for whom deregulation was a moral mantra just a few short years ago?I am reminded of the prohibitionists who, upon losing their disastrous amendment, vowed to make the liquor laws so damn confusing that nobody could sell the stuff. It got so bad that our illustrious attorney general was pulling over planes in mid-air over the state, to see if they were serving demon rum! It’s hardly worth mentioning that those laws never stopped anyone who wanted one from getting a drink, but oh, how good it made those prohibitionists feel!This is the same old same old. We’ll send a herd of lawyers kids through college on constitutional issues and lawsuits while a pack of self-righteous twits pat themselves on the back! The people who want porn will still get it off the internet, same as before. And gee, we get to pay for it, just like always!
If Wichita and Sedgwick County would take all of the public money that has been spent combatting prostitution and sex industries over the years and divert that money to other legitimate public purposes, Wichita could become a world class city instead of a dusty latter day cowtown.
I live near an adult book store. A couple years ago the church was protesting at the store. The people had their children out on the sidewalks. My 79 year old neighbor was trying to recover from pneumonia and just wanted to rest. She couldn’t get any sleep because of the constant car honkings. I walked across and politely asked them to be respectful of the people in the neighborhood. After a few exchanges, I just gave up and went back home.Extremists have no respect for anyone who doesn’t agree with their views.
I still stand by my view that pronography is harmful to a society, and I’m certainly not a fundamentalist Christian and I don’t hate sex. It seems to me that the “liberals” on this blog are just as guilty as the “conservatives” when it comes to stereotyping people. If you had worked with as many sexual abuse victims as I have, you’d probably see this issue a little differently. Just because you haven’t seen the devastating effects sexual perversion, don’t convince yourselves it doesn’t exist. Pornography is not a just a harmless adventure for consenting adults, it feeds and fuels the sickest of minds. It serves no positive purpose whatsoever.
I am a sexual abuse victim, twice over.I still stand by my view that I feel safer knowing people have a legal way to find release for their sexual tensions.How does prohibiting people from release make anyone safer?
That’s not how it works, in the sick mind, it tends to normalize deviant behavior, not release it. It’s the same myth that prostitution should be legalized in order to lower the incidence of rape. Sexual addicts, rapists, and child molestors don’t need more legal ways to act out, what they need is serious therapy and/or incarceration. Most mental health professionals agree on this.
This is the same logic that says BTK should not have been a serial killer because he attended church.The sick mind is just that. A sick mind.It doesn’t matter if they go to church, or the adult book stores they are inclined to do what they will.
But we don’t need to encourage them.
In fact you bring up an interesting point Sum 1. It makes perfect sense that Dennis Rader attended church. People who have little internal control over their impulses often seek out external controls to do the job for them. You often see abusive people and sexual perpetrators who are in the military or some other form of closed or ridgid belief system (fundamentalists, Mormon, Amish, etc). It’s not unusual at all for them to lead double lives. My bet is that Dennis Rader attended church BECAUSE he was a sociopath and a serial killer.
In fact you bring up an interesting point Sum 1. It makes perfect sense that Dennis Rader attented church. People who have little internal control over their impulses often seek out external controls to do the job for them. You often see abusive people and sexual perpetrators who are in the military or some other form of closed or ridgid belief system (fundamentalists, Mormon, Amish, etc). It’s not unusual at all for them to lead double lives. My bet is that Dennis Rader attended church BECAUSE he was a sociopath and a serial killer.
oops! Sorry about the double post.
Hey Damoon,Yeah, in general, porn is sometimes harmful. So are a lot of things. The irony is that because of a lot of people’s attitude about porn, along with most anything sexual, the only source their kids have for information about sex IS porn.
True, thats why we need positive and healthy sex education in the schools. Many kids today don’t have a clue as to what a healthy relationship is, between the obscene music, Hollywood, and the lousy role modeling their parents provide, they don’t have a chance.
Is MTV and Network shows like Desperate Housewives considered porn?
I don’t watch it, but from channel checking, from what I see at the brief moment, comes really close to porn.
Hey Joe,The real problem is that porn is in the eye of the beholder. Lawmakers have tried for a century and a half to write a law to define porn, and it’s sister concept obscenity, and the result is that: A. the pornographers always find a way around it, and B. Some very fine and important works have been banned for the silliest of reasons. Case in point is James Joyce’s “Ulysses,” probably the most important book of the 20th century! It’s a stunningly difficult book to read, and anyone who does deserves whatever titillation he gets from it’s four uses of the “F” word.Several legislators and judges have said “I can’t define obscenity, but I know it when I see it,” which is the root of the problem. Everybody sees something different, and yet thinks everybody else agrees with him!Sex is a normal and natural part of being human and as such should always be open to discussion. To me, porn simply adds nothing to the discussion that hasn’t been said a thousand times before. To some people, any acknowledgement that sex exists seems threatening. To others, the definition of obscenity doesn’t even include sex. Makes it kinda hard to achieve the consensus of language that’s needed when a law is written.Are MTV and Desperate Housewives porn? To me they’re just boring, which I’d like to think is reason enough to ban them, but my TV has an “Off” button, unlike some, and I use it often.
There is a difference between “sexually explicit” and “pornographic”. I learned this when I found a dirty magazine under my son’s mattress (he and a friend stole one at our neighborhood convience store). Being the vigilent and concerned mother that I am, I marched right down to the vice squad department and demanded they do something about the conveinence store that was selling “porn”. After they quit laughing at me, they explained that the magazines weren’t considered pornographic and that selling them at the convienence store was perfectly legal. The one thing I did get accomplished was getting the store to lock them under glass so that young boys wouldn’t be so tempted to steal them.By the way, my son gave up his life of crime and turned out to be a responsible, law abiding citizen.
I never understood the lure of porn. Always preferred the real thing myself.
I think porn is degrading, especially to women. It takes sex from something that should be beautiful and loving and turns it into something ugly and totally self serving.
Damoon, does that mean I have to get rid of the whip and spurs and hand-cuffs? (just kidding)
Hey Damoon,As much as we try, there really is no way to isolate our kids from the world. It’s always out there, and they’ll have to come in contact with it at some point. The best we can do is give kids the tools they need to deal with it, as early as possible.I never censored anything my kids wanted to read or view, but I did require that we discuss it afterwards. That included the classics as well as the trash. Those conversations (and they were two-way conversations, not lectures) gave me the opportunity to show them how to think about and evaluate everything they came in contact with in the world. Arming them this way worked pretty well; none of them are criminals, sexual predators or bigots, although one is a recovering used car salesman (oh, the shame of it).Simply censoring would have been a lot easier and taken less time, but wouldn’t have been nearly as productive. The weapons we gave them work on most of the bullshit out there, not just one little corner of it, and gave them the basis to form healthy attitudes and relationships.I realize that not every parent has the resources necessary to do that. That’s why it’s up to the educational system to teach kids critical thinking, and not just in the sex ed classes!
Jed,My Dad threatened to crack my skull if I screwed up. It was a 2-way conversation, too. He asked if I understood, and I said “Yes Sir!”
Hi Hammer,I’m sorry. I know that a lot of people have difficulty talking, especially in some areas such as sex.In my own relationships with my parents, and later with my wife and children, the respect went both ways, and we were all the better for it. I understand that’s not always the case, but it sure made things easier for us.
Just different roads to the same place, Jed. Personally, I hesitate to get involved in a discussion about porn because I really don’t have a hard opinion about it. I’ve never been big on porn myself and I think I’ve been in a porn establishment maybe twice in my life. I think some of the posts by Damoon shed a different prospective on the subject, and I can see her point. But as a nation, we are the most regressive people when it comes to sex. I have no idea what the answer is. I think sex ed in school is part of the answer. I think parents could do a lot better job.
The comment about my dad was more tongue-in-cheek, although he was a strict diciplinarian. Sex was never mentioned. I learned about it the old-fashioned way…from my friends, LOL.
Hey Hammer,I got no particuar use for porn either, but the way the laws have been used, and a lot of people’s fear of anything that might possibly be related to sex, makes me afraid that a lot of really good stuff is going to suffer, as it has in the past. Our former Attorney General covered up the “Spirit of Justice?” Wow! He must be moral!The reactionary right wants us to go back to Victorian times, when Family Values meant something, like the 70% of men in New York State who had syphillis or gonnorhea in 1890. Me, I just figure that knowledge leads to fewer mistakes than stupidity.
Jed, congrats on your relationship with your kids, unfortunately there are lots of parents who don’t censor what their kids watch, read, or listen to and then don’t talk to them about anything either. At least when we were growing up, if you had parents who didn’t discuss sex or all the bad things in the world (I know mine didn’t), there was nothing objectionable on TV, in music, etc. that would give a bad example. I don’t feel like my rights were violated because music and TV were censored and there were no porn shops in my neighborhood when I was growing up. We used to play outside all day without parental supervision and no one really worried much about it. I resent the fact that parents (and grandparents) now must be security guards in our own homes to protect our kids (and grandkids) from sexually explicit material and graphic violence. The only other choice is to throw out the TV or radio. We can’t even allow our kids to play outside unsupervised nowadays because we’re so scared some pervert will kidnap them. It makes me sick to see some of the trash on TV that is programmed for kids, (have you ever watched an episode of South Park?). Kids today aren’t allowed to be innocent anymore, they’re becoming sexually active at a much younger age, and I don’t think as a society we’re better off for that. Media and pop culture have an incredible influence on society, and I think it’s time parents, Hollywood and the music industry started to take some responsibility for the negative example it setting for our upcoming generation.Pornography is not harmless, it’s just more negative thing that’s helping to take our society down the tubes. We are not “repressive” at all in the U.S. when it comes to sex, in fact it’s just the opposite. Sex is pushed at us in every way possible in this country, because it’s one of the most successful marketing tools there is, and as we all know, money is God in this country.
Damoon,Yeah, porn is a lot more open today than when we grew up, but it was still there. One of the kids in my Jr. High smuggled in some absolutely awful stuff that would still be classified hardest of the hardcore, from Havana, when he went there with his parents. There were plenty of other sources too, if you just went looking.If there’s a demand, there’s no way to prevent a supply. The only thing you can do is to render it harmless by changing attitudes toward sex, and you DON’T do that by not talking about it, and the current pervasiveness of porn gives us a lot more opportunities to discuss it.I know most parents weren’t like mine, which is why I said it’s up to the educational system to change the attitudes that make porn a marketable commodity!
It’s still degrading to women and I don’t think most men seek it out because they’re curious about sex or their parents never talked to them about sex. We can talk (or not talk) about sex all we want, porn is a whole ‘nother ball of wax.It’s not so much that pornography exists, it’s about WHY does it exist? That’s my question. Why is it so important that society have a legitimized way to degrade women? It was never an issue to let it exist in our society before, why now? Is it because women are gaining strength and leadership and this is just a way to try and keep women in a subordinate position? It’s humiliating to be treated as a sex object (although I haven’t had that problem for a while!)And what about the proliferation of child porn since the dawn of the internet? What the hell is that all about? Porn addiction a sick compulsion and an issue that needs to be addressed, not minimized as though it’s just part of normal sexuality.
Jed, I admit I hadn’t thought about the art aspect. I guess that’s a little scary. I don’t think I want right wingnuts dictating what is art. We could kiss Reubens goodby.
I have been pondering some of the blogs. Ponder a lot now days and think I have come up with a way to have XXXXXXXX videos and save Exploration Place at the same time. Why not put a large I-Max movie theatre in EP featuring multi-x videos at premium prices. Center city located and geared to the upscale patrons. Tongue in cheek
Hey Damoon,Of course it’s degrading to women. It’s even more degrading to men. Before this degenerates into a sexist argument, I should note that surveys show that the fastest growing market for porn is women, who now buy or rent almost a third of adult(?) videos, and read nearly all the romance novels.The problem lies in trying to ban something you can’t define, and you can’t define it because porn is conceptual, not objective- what turns on a person is quite personal.If we go after particular images or words, we end up hunting jackrabbits in the museum with a howitzer- we’ll never get all the jackrabbits, but we destroy a lot of valuable stuff trying.
Hey Hammer,Any group that wants to control a culture trys to control art and literature. The churches have tried it, as well as the communists, nazis, etc., etc.! Needless to say, they’ve all failed, but they sure did a lot of damage in the process.
Jed, I agree. Like I said, I just hadn’t considered art. While I consider dipping a curcifix in urine obcene, I rather enjoy Greek sculpture. Be a sad day when we classify classic art as obcene.
Hi Hammer,Yeah, Serrano’s crucifix does look obscene, because you interpret it in terms of your culture and experience. That’s what most of us tend to do, but when you look at all his other work, you begin to understand that he’s developed a personal symbolic language that expresses a fairly mainstream Catholic idea. It just uses things that other people have attached a different symbolism to. Artists do that kind of thing a lot, and politicians make a lot of hay by either intentionally or negligently misinterpreting it
As they say, “Art is in the eye of the beholder”
I disagree, Jed, porn is not conceptual and it is defined. If what you say about women being the fastest growing consumers of porn is true, that is sad indeed. It just goes to show how we’re losing our values as a society and we’re all paying the price for it. It used to be that 98% of sexual perpetrators were men, now we hear more all the time about women molesting young boys. We’re really becoming a sick society. The more we legitimize devant sexual behavior, the more of it we’ll see.
OK Damoon,Write a definition of porn that covers objectionable words and/or images that pornographers can’t find an easy way around, and yet allows free expression of ideas as per the constitution. Lawmakers have been trying for 150 years without success.Remember that up until the late 1920’s, medical textbooks were censored, setting back Ob/Gyn study to the point that we’re only now catching up, but the same prohibition of nudity simply led to the invention of pasties and g-strings.Also remember that what turns people on is a very fluid thing. I have a friend who collects highly risque images and objects from the early 1900’s, depicting women’s ankles in various high-button shoes. These excited the men back then just as much as today’s porn does now.There is also at least some truth to statements that desire for porn made development of polariod cameras, VCR’s and the internet financially possible, so be careful not to ban technological progress along with porn.Well, you’ve got your work cut out for you, get busy!
Damoon,Yes, we hear more now of women molesting boys. That doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen, it’s just that in the sexist society that existed up until recently, the powers that be didn’t really consider it a crime, and seldom investigated allegations of it. It’s our perceptions and sensitivity to it that have changed.
I’m just saying that there is a difinition of porn, and it’s not the same as sexually explicit. There is difference. I don’t agree that women have always been molesting children and that it was “just ignored”, there is more of this inappropriate behavior today, along with every other kind of sexual behavior because of how sex is encouraged and promoted in every aspect of our society. When we were growing up, I don’t remember EVER seeing a pregnant 12 or 13 yr old, now it’s not that uncommon. In 20 yrs of working in Behavioral Health, I only met one woman who actually molested a child, now days it’s not that unusual to hear about it on the news. Things have changed dramatically in the last 20-30 yrs and inappropriate sexual behavior is more common. The definition of porn is as follows: “still or moving images, usually of women, in varying states of nudity, posing or performing erotic acts with men, women, animals, machines, or other props”I’m not some old fuddy duddy prude, I just think porn is harmful to our society and serves no useful purpose whatsoever.
Hey Damoon,Interesting definition! Taken literally (and such definitions usually are, in court) I think you just destroyed about 3/4ths of the advertising industry, not to mention Hollywood, as well as many classical art themes. It would also apply to the tango contest on network TV the other night, while failing to address written porn, gay porn or many S&M flicks!While you aren’t “some old fuddy duddy prude,” that definition will certainly lead us far in that direction, and still leaves the pornographers way too much leeway.I agree that porn serves no useful purpose, but there are many things that do that have been interpreted as porn by small-minded moralists. It’s only sheer luck that the paintings in the Sistine Chapel still exist, along with much of the world’s art and literature.Whether it does harm depends on whether it creates attitudes or merely reflects existing ones. I tend to believe the latter, simply because it would serve no function without those attitudes, and if we change them, the images will change themselves.
Damoon,Since I’m in a position to see much of it, I can say that pregnant 12-13 yr. olds are still a fairly rare phenomenon. In my 5 yrs. doing clinic support, I’ve seen fewer than half a dozen cases. It’s just gotten blown way out of proportion by people in search of an issue!
Porn is fun. I enjoy popping in a movie now and then and watching it. Damoon you come across as a very uptight person. I would imagine you are a religious church person. I am not. I don’t preach my values to every person on the corner, and I don’t believe the anti porn crusaders should either.
Those on the religious right will have you believe that porn is addicting much the same way that alcohol or cigarettes are addicting. It isn’t. It is a choice that all adults can make. The stores are restricted to people 18yrs and older. In some cases 21 and up. So to take away the choice that an adult can make about what entertainment they choose to indulge in is ludicrous.
Degrading to women? Not hardly. Most of the high profile starlets make more money than most of the people that have posted their thoughts on in this topic make. If you like sex, and you are getting paid good money to have it, why not do it? It is a moral objection on the viewers part not on the part of the performer.
I’m a religious church person? Ask Nathan! Obviously you haven’t read many of my posts. I’ve worked in behavioral health for 20 yrs, I know that porn is addictive and that it fuels very sick minds. It’s interesting that on this issue, only men are defending porn. What’s up with that? You guys can minimize it all you want, but I see the reality of it’s effects every day. If you were walking in my shoes, your perception might be little different. It’s not harmless and it’s degrading. And by the way, Jed, I’ve been to the Sistine Chapel, and there is no porn up there. You don’t get the difference do you?
The Sistine Chapel doesn’t have porn, but what he was pointing out is that if the religious right in this country can continue this crusade against supposed bad things such as porn whats next? The art in the Sistine Chapel, the statue of David, where does it end.
How exactly is porn addictive? Other than trying to find a movie with a particular star in it, I don’t obsess with watching it.
Of course men will defend porn. There just aren’t enough women around that are sexually liberated enough to do so. But alas as you may already know from earlier posts and research being done, women are becoming as big of a consumer of porn as men.
Is that a bad thing? If we outlaw XXX stores, whats next? Are the morality police going to come in your home and remove objectionable objects such as D!!D0s. They might be harmful or degrading to women. When in reality they are no different than men watching a porno. One requires active participation while the other you just sit and watch.
My main point is that all adults have choices to make. Whether or not you watch porn, buy cable TV, go to the movies, or what to eat. They are all choices.
If you don’t want to go to the movies because you think they are dirty fine, that is your choice. But don’t cry about it to the paper.
Same thing with cable tv. People complain about what is shown on cable these days. Again if you don’t like it, then don’t buy it. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.
Same with the porn stores. If you don’t like it, don’t go. In either case people will still be able to access it via numerous platforms such as the internet, mail order, etc… The morality police in KS have gotten way too bold over the past couple of years.
People are always going to complain no matter what is going on. If the churches in this community are going to be actively involved as they have been in this issue, among others, I believe it is time for them to lose their tax exempt status and become tax payers like the rest of us.
“Addicted” to porn? Oh puhleeze. Do people ever learn from History? There was a movement in this country the first part of the 19th century to ban alcohol because of addiction problems of a few. Remember Prohibition? It did not reduce the demand, it did not change behavior. It did make gangsters and rum runners very rich and resulted in countless deaths.This is just another attempt to legislate morality–as Southwind publishes in its documents. Dangerous to even consider.
I’ve stated the negative aspects of porn over and over. I’m tired of repeating myself. I’m not a Christian, I’m not a prudish old woman, I’m a mental health professional, and I know the negative effects of porn on people and society, I’ve seen it up close and personal.You guys don’t have a clue. Let me ask you to do one thing. The next time you watch a porno movie, just imagine that the girl performing is your daughter, your sister, your mom, how does that make you feel? Then tell me it’s not degrading.
Damoon,
I have a cousin who is/was an exotic dancer. She was never shunned by the family for any reason. As to the point of how I would feel, I wouldn’t mind it. If that is the choice they made and they “gasp” enjoyed what they were doing then more power to them.
Hey Damoon,You say the Sistine Chapel isn’t porn, but several popes disagreed with you, and one went so far as to have pants painted on all the figures. Luckily, the painter who did it used a technique that allowed later restorers to depants the figures. A lot of other artworks were not so lucky and are gone forever.Currently, many of the “Putti,” the figures some misname “Cherubs” that surround many a Catholic altar painting, fall under the legal definition of child porn. Soon now, some half-assed prosecutor is going to claim they’re the reason priests dig little boys and sue the church under the RICO laws! Maybe a victory for taste, but a disaster for art and freedom of expression.