The U.S. Supreme Court made the right calls Monday on the display of the Ten Commandments in public places. Such displays may be acceptable if they don’t go too far in promoting religion, such as when they honor the nation’s legal traditions, the court said. That’s a subjective standard that likely will result in more litigation. But it seeks a balance between barring all religious symbols and allowing a Christian majority to use government to advance its faith.
Still, do you ever wonder what God thinks about this debate? Somehow, I think he is more concerned about whether we honor Him in our hearts and deeds, not whether there is a display in some government building.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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30 Comments
The First Amendment was put forth by states’ rightists, who feared governance by a Catholic or Episcopal group. The Constitution’s passage depended upon states’ approval, which included the Bill of Rights, which the framers did not originally include.
“Congress shall make no law establishment of religion.” Congress was the federal lawmaking body. It was distinct from states’ lawmaking bodies. The Supreme Court has basically broken the law, in creating its own law that has no constitutional foundation, without any authority except self-proclamation. We’re talking about 9 human beings,who are just like 280 million other Americans.
If states chose to say, “Screw you, we’re posting the commandments in public places,” what could the Supremes do? Nothing. It would take an executive order to muster federal agents to remove them. Would Mr. George Fundamentalist Christian Bush do this? And alienate 3/4 of his consituency? Not likely. So the reality is, states can do what they want, if they want to.
If they remove the first 5 of the Commandments and left the remaining five, then it should be ok. Makes no reference to god or religion.
If you remove the first 5 then it is no longer the “10 Commandments” but merely “Joes revision”
Considering the tendency of religions to persecute one another, and the need, not only for fairness, but the perception of fairness in our courts and other public institutions, the display of religious symbols there is highly inappropriate.Here in Wichita, we have a number of Vietnamese Buddhists, some of whom are old enough to remember their ill-treatment at the hands of the Catholic Diem regime. As citizens, they should expect to be treated equally by the courts, but when they walk in and see Christian symbols displayed there, the perception of bias is inevitable. We have many other non-Christian faiths represented here too. Would you, as a Christian, feel confident walking into a court where the judge quoted Sharia Law?The government is not your forum for prostlytizing. Check your doctrine at the door!
Jed,
There is a big difference between displaying the 10 commandments and quoting Sharia Law.
You are arguing against perception, not reality.
Our courts are fair, regardless of the display of the Commandments.
Jed,
The 10 Commandments are without a doubt one of the most recognized religious symbols. But I’m not sure it is accurate to call them “Christian”. I believe God wrote them originally for the Jews, even though they apply to everyone. Christians didn’t even exist at the time! Now if there was a cross on the door, I could maybe see your point!
Anyway… when you start asking for taxpayer money to remove all these symbols, you are going to get more flack than the guys that replaced the blue roof on the water pump house!
As a liberal nonChristian, I don’t see what the big deal is, really. Most nonChristians/atheists are secure enough to not feel intimidated by a Ten Commandments post. Now if I walked in the door of a government bulding and there was a sign screaming “Accept Jesus as your savior or you’re going to hell”, I might be annoyed.
But the majority of US citizens are Christian, and I think liberals should be more receptive to that. Maybe we’d get more votes that way. Right now the Wingnuts have a monopoly on “moral values” and its because we’re perceived as waging a “war on Christianity”. It’s stuff like this, demanding taxpayer dollars to fight the Ten Commandments that comes back to bite us in the rear.
I’m not fighting the ten commandments. If you christians want to put up a 25 story building downtown in the shape of tablets and enscribe them on the side, fine; you have the right to be tasteless.
What bothers us is your tendency, demonstrated countless times, to persecute those who don’t share, or pretend to share, your every sacred tenet! When you start insisting that the government, especially the courts, display your (and only your) religious symbols, it sure looks to the rest of us like you’re planning yet another pogrom. Sorry, but we’ve been burned (literally) too many times before.
Hey Nathan,
Yes, there’s a difference between posting the ten commandments and quoting Sharia- one’s christian and the other isn’t! Other than that, no.
And yes, it is a matter of perception. Where bias is concerned, perception is all we’ve got to go on.
And if our courts are as fair as you say, why are you guys howling after nearly every decision? you need to get your stories straight!
Being one of the few that thinks that “under God” should be removed from the pledge (it was only put there to scare the communists!) and “In God We Trust” off of our money….I really don’t think that the 10 commandments have ANY place in a court of law. They never should have been put there in the first place. Where’s Hammarabi’s Code or some of the other codes that have lead to the basis of our laws? It’s not right to have one but not the others.
As far as taxpayer dollars for removal, I have two options…1) charge whoever was dumb enough to put the monument there in the first place. 2) make people with community service hours to serve work on removing the items. That way, it doesn’t cost us a dime and the balance between church and state is restored.
Nathan, In this post, you say our courts are fair, but in one of your other posts, you ridicule judges. I quote,
“I see for too many people are ready to put all their fatih in mere human beings in black robes.
Keep in mind that these same people in robes are the ones who used to be the but of all the immorality jokes about lawyers.”
A little confused, are we?
W. Locke,
You make the mistake of trying to say that just becuase I disagree with the way the court has overstepped their power in some instances that I must be completely against them?
That is not the case at all.
I didnt realize that I either had to agree with the court in everything or nothing at all.
Yeah, I guess that’s kind of like the president saying, “either you’re with us, or you’re against us”.
W. Locke,
No not really.
To all who abhor the religious symbols tied to goverment, just bring all of your tainted money to the Lords Diner and divest yourself of these dirty symbols and after a good and though cleaning it will be returned to you manyfold.
Thank you and God Bless.
Jed,
There is a bigger difference. One is nothing more than an inanimate object which is not used in any other way than for display while the other is actually being used by a judge.
Big John, I prefer to give to non-government charities – they have a more proper local focus and often do a better job of getting the most out of what resources they have. If you work or volunteer for the Lord’s Diner, bless you!
Hey Nathan,
An inanimate object only used for display? The same could be said for nuclear weapons! You people use them, along with the rest of your sick doctrine, to bully, persecute and kill people! Thou shalt not kill, hah! As for bearing false witness, you do it all the time- the church invented the word “propaganda” to justify the lies it tells to “propagate the faith.” You use those commandments to pass judgement on anyone you disagree with, and ignore them when it suits your purposes. You need to get that beam out of your eye and go take a long look in the mirror!
Jed,
That was nice.
How is it that we use the (10 commandments or was it nuclear weapons) to “bully, persecute and kill people?”
Where does the scripture say “Thou shalt not kill?”
When did the “church” (and which church are you talking about) invent the word propaghanda and how?
Where do you get that Christianity only uses the 10 commandments when it suits us?
Hey Nathan,
In my King James edition, it’s located in Ex.20:12.
The eariest usage of the word “propaganda” that I’ve found is it’s use by the Jesuits in the mid-16th century, in regards to their policy that anything that furthers the faith is good. This is a restatement of a much earlier doctrine that “A sin is no sin if it does the work of our Lord,” which seems to still be basic to your thinking.
That’s also where I get the impression that you use your own laws only when it suits your purposes.
Back in 1964, in a Baptist church somewhat to the south of here, I heard the preacher pray for God to send an avenging angel against that awful “Martin Luther Coon.” Now, it seems, the baptists were at the forefront of the civil rights movement! I can’t believe they don’t choke to death whenever they invoke the name of Dr. King!
I could cite examples all day, but you get the idea!
Jed..
Your mistake is a common one….. you get your Christian examples from imperfect men who misrepresented the faith. The only true example of a perfect Christian is Jesus Christ. Look at Him and reevaluate your opinions of a TRUE Christian example.. Men have fallen short of the example beginning with the original 12.. Christians only hope to learn from His example and do better!
Good point, kansassam!
Hi Kansassam,
You’re misunderstanding me- I have no particular problem with Jesus; my problem is with all the jackasses who believe they can do anything to anyone just by dropping his name, and all the imbeciles that follow them!
The fault lies in all the control freaks and power seekers who gain a broad following by reinventing Jesus in their own image. Unfortunately, so many preachers and politicians have done it to fit so many agendas for so many centuries, that whatever Jesus represented is no longer a part of christianity. Sorry!
As a social democrat and atheist, I do not seek to deny anyone their religious practice. In return, I ask that the religious practice of others not be imposed upon me.
This is the true value of the separation of church and state. Those who choose religion may do so freely. Those who deny religion must be free to do so as well.
As a social democrat and atheist, I do not seek to deny anyone their religious practice. In return, I ask that the religious practice of others not be imposed upon me.
This is the true value of the separation of church and state. Those who choose religion may do so freely. Those who deny religion must be free to do so as well.
It seems apparent that quite a few readers slept through their American history and american government classes. It’s also likely they never made it through “Christianity 101″ and don’t have a clue. They understand neither the U.S. Constitution or the Bible. America was founded upon Christian priciples and precepts taught in the Bible. The founding fathers warned of the consequences of turning away from these things. Now you would kick God out of the family, class rooms, court rooms, businesses and the government. You don’t want God around so don’t whine about bad times befalling our country. You get exactly what you ask for.
Hey Harley,
Yes, I’ve studied history, the constitution and the bible, along with a few other things.
I have no interest in kicking God out of anything; what I’m against is you and your church using the schools and courts to prostletize and persecute YOUR enemies, not God’s!
In case you hadn’t noticed, they’re not the same.
Harley? I know not your God. I DO support your right to know him and believe as you like. But Harley? YOU speak of us “kicking God out”. This forces me to wonder, is your god so weak as to depend on your defense of him? If “he” wants “his” will taught in classrooms, or mandated by laws, or posted in our courtrooms, then let him make it so. And failing that, since you seem to have a direct line to god and what he wants, let me come over and get on the line with him. I have issues with how he is running things and who he “speaks through”
Jed…
Thanks for clearing that up… it seems we are together on that thought!
J.R.
Good point. MY God could place His image on every building on Earth with just a word… He is in control… so I assume that this is a non-issue for him! Last time I read the Bible I believe He wanted His people to walk by faith.. and SHARE the Gospel…. not try to force it on people.
I see my comments struck a nerve. But here is my best response to you.
1. I see that you really have a problem with God, Christians and the Church. In part that is understandable. The organized church has spent centuries forcing it’s culture on other countries and peoples. our job is to spread the good news but not force it upon anyone. However, There is and has been an agenda to remove God from everything possible. If you deny that then you live in a box. By the way, don’ confuse allowing things to happend with not being to control things. God said “in the last days people would turn to their own desires and beliefs and he would give them over to a reprobate mind.”
2. This country was founded upon the belief in the God of the Bible and in Christianity. A reminder of our heritage and what our laws and moral values are based on is good. Otherwise we might forget that that the atheist, gay, Muslim or whoever, is a human being and stone them to death instead of giving them the freedom and rights guaranteed by or Constitution – the one that was written by “God believing” forefathers. In fact, anyone can come here without being persecuted at large but let a Christian go elsewhere – the same is not true and hundreds of thousands of Christians have been murdered at the hands of believers of Islam.
3. Unfortunately, you are no different than anyone else. You on this thing blogging about what you believe and you are the only one that is right. A liberal is tolerant of every view except when they disagree with it.
4. I had no intention of
turning this into a debate and I will not log onto this site again to perpetuate this. Jed, I shake the dust from my feet.
However, JR – I believe you when you say you do not know my God. I pray for your sake that you will try to learn about Him. His name is Y’shua and there is no other before or after Him.
I do not intend to show disrepect for either of you. These reponses are from an imperfect human being that can only hope to show a small bit of the love for others that Jesus showed the world.