America faces some big challenges: Record trade and budget deficits. Soaring health care costs. Homelessness. Illegal immigration. Insurgent attacks in Iraq. Reports of prisoner abuse. So what does the U.S. House do? It passes a constitutional amendment banning flag burning.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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37 Comments
This is nothing more than a ploy…they are pandering to those that have put the Republican majority in office. Rally around the flag everybody! If you don’t….you hate America! There are so many more important things going on in this country and the world to focus their energy on, but they choose something that they can use in campaign ads later.
If they were really concerned about people burning flags in protest, they would make a law requiring flags to be made from non-flammable material.
I am a veteran. Past commander of a VFW. I think burning the flag is desecrating the symbol of everything that our brave servicemen and women have fought and died for. I have had the distinct honor of being able to present our flag at graveside services to the surviving spouses and mothers of servicemen that have passed away. I can not tell of these occasions without tearing up.
If you disagree with me, let me buy you lunch, we’ll talk.
Hank
Hi Hank… I’ll pass on the free lunch invitation – I doubt we’d agree on much of anything, so I’m sure it wouldn’t be any fun at all.
I guarantee you one thing though – if this stupid amendment passes, there will be a HUGE increase in flag-burning. I can’t see where it’s much of a problem right now, but it soon COULD be.
In fact, I can’t wait to light up Old Glory myself!
Dear sconad,
Sorry I’ll miss you at lunch. I’m sure I would have enjoyed it.
Maybe we’ll meet when you light up ‘Old Glory’!
Hank
Sconad… I can only guess to what generation you belong to be so disrespectful to the honest comments of an American veteran (Hank, I’m sorry). Your comments are a disgraceful display of your ignorance. How sad.
Liz… go ahead, guess – which generation AM I from? As for disrespecting American veterans, what exactly did I say that was disrespectful to Hank? All I said was I doubted we’d agree on much of anything? Are you trying to tell me that just DISAGREEING is now disrespectful? Did White House Toadie Scott McClellen send you here to say that? My father IS an American veteran… and he taught me to think for myself. Which is what I’ll continue to do, even if the rest of you sheep swallow every load of manure put in front of you.
sconad,
I think it is a disgrace to our country that close-minded people like you are so ready to burn the symbol of everything we stand for in effigy. I bet you have a confederate flag somewhere too, don’t you? After all, what better symbol of the break up of America?
While I do feel that this kind of legislation is what wastes taxpayers dollars, I also believe that desecrating the symbol of our country is just plain wrong. If we ourselves have so little respect for this country, how can we expect others to have respect for us? No wonder one of the largest terrorist acts in this nation was perpetrated not by Bin Laden, but by an american citizen. It makes me afraid for kind of society my children will grow up in.
Now, more than ever, we need to show respect for our flag. And Hank is right in that it is a symbol of all that our veterans of EVERY war (including the Civil War) have fought to protect. It’s time to give it the honor it deserves.
And I’d be willing to bet I am in the same generation as you, as much as it shames me to admit that. And as much as it makes me sick………. And by the way, that manure you are so busy trying to claim is being shoved down our throats??? Hope it tasted good when you took your mouthful….
On Dec. 18 2000, I burned every single American flag I owned. That was the day that the Supreme court appointed George Bush. I did this with my young son. I wanted him to understand the anger I had been moved to by the injustice that had been done. You see, I had always taught him about our founding fathers and history. I had once been a fervent flag waver myself. Even as I grew more and more jaded, I wanted to at least try to help my son believe some of the things I grew up believing.
But on that day, and in the time since, I have felt that to simply teach or espouse patriotism is a dis-service to my son. It would be wrong to teach him (as I was taught) blind patrotism to a nation that has so departed from its core values. Better to teach him the all more important idea of fighting FOR those ideas by any and all means possible. This includes the core American idea of dissent and protest. THis includes the desecration of the banner that SYMBOLIZES the ideas worth fighting for. Especially when the symbol has come to stand for nothing more than itself; the ideals neglected, or corrupted, or forgotten.
Hank? I burned MY flag on MY property. I did this because I don’t beleive in America anymore. In further posts, I might go into that if there is interest. See that’s the key. Maybe people who burn the flag need to be listened to instead of prosecuted, villified, or told “if ya don’t love it leave it”.
I have a lot more to say but let’s see what this generates.
Your idea of lunch is interesting Hank. But I fear the divide between “your people” and “my people” has grown so wide that communication would be impossible and that’s too bad. In the meantime I do honor and respect your past service. I also know how strongly you feel on this issue. I used to feel the same way.
Fight the good fight,
Jay
Good work, Jay. Taught your son hate, victimization, and adolescent irresponsibility all in one lesson. I’m sure he learned his lesson well. That’s the kind of parenting that turns kids into social misfits.
Congratulations, by the way. You clicked on “Post” only once this time.
No, what Jay taught his son is that sometimes you can love something enough to realize that it is a shell of its former self. Since 12/00, added with the desecration of the Constitution in the form of the Patriot Act, the fact that industry lobbyists are writing every law that is being debated (often without the people even knowing who was at the meeting), the pro-rich, pro-corporate ideal is not something that all Americans wish to stand for. I am often appalled at the “flagwavers” whose flag flies atop their oil-swilling SUV waving their flag till it’s in shreds, leaving it in the rain, no lighting at night….these people are more patriotic than Jay? I don’t think so. Sometimes you have to destroy something to make it stronger (think field burn off, or new growth after a forest fire).
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.” — Declaration of Independence
I think it’s safe to say that the current Government has become destructive to those ends…and if someone burns a flag to show their disgust, better than than the Capitol.
No, Wendy, the true “closed-minded” are people like yourself who still can’t seem to grasp the real reasons that that would make someone feel the need to burn a flag. No I DON’T own a Confederate flag; the way I see it, the only people who WOULD own one are the people most AGAINST flag-burning. I have never in my life burned an American flag – I have never felt the need to. I promise there are lots of people who feel the same. But I also promise you that if this moronic amendment passes, there will be lots of Americans who suddenly DO feel that need.
As for the manure – I sincerely doubt you and I are on the same diet.
Wow, everybody’s all fired up. Amazing. By the way, flag burning is not generational. It has occured throughout the history of the civilized world as a way for people to protest or convey their dissatisfaction with the government. It is absolutely the most radical method of free speech, and therefore must be left as an open option of protest. If we were to outlaw the burning of the american flag, what will well outlaw next? Will people be prosecuted for criticizing the government? Our free speech and ability to openly criticize the government is what makes us Americans just as much as the men and women who have fought to protect this country. Both sides are fighting to protect the American way of life, just in different ways. I strongly doubt that veterans would like to see America fall into a dictatorship because no one stood up to the government, and I know that protestors who aren’t afraid to burn the flag wouldn’t like to see America overrun by an invading army. C’mon people, why has everyone suddenly become so closed to discussion and open to argument. It takes both sides of people to keep the balance in this country.
We need to keep in mind that the flag is a piece of cloth. Being a combat vet myself, I don’t like watching some twit desecrate it, but what really worries me is how many of you are ready to curb freedom of speech and expression, freedoms I fought and bled for. Are we really in such an all-fired rush to give up the freedoms that made this a great country? Burning a flag does no harm to our country or what it stands for and serves to identify the real nut cases among us. As a great man once said, “I dissagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.
Flag burning is a rare thing. I haven’t seen it myself since Viet Nam. What we really need to be worrying about is, what are the sneaking politicians trying to divert our attention from with this flag burning amendment?
I say the personal RIGHT, of freedom of expression, to burn the flag is more important than the act itself.
Wouldnt you agree that a closed secretive misleading administration is more dangerous than a few who choose to burn the flag.
Ragged Old Flag
Interesting how anti-Americans always seem to have a US flags to burn. Maybe the media cameramen carry US flags with them. The shots certainly always look staged.
Nicki had one good comment earlier about making flags that won’t burn. Watching protestors with non-flammable flags would be a hoot.
Wait the Cash song doesnt sing about the
Native American massacares the flag rode into. Or the time Crazy Horse showed true spirit against Custer.
Take a deep thought and realize that the U.S. has an exceptional doctrine by which to rule the land.
But we have an extremely Ugly Racist Past!!
Dear Gary,
If ya make an omlet, ya gotta break a few eggs.
It’s a shame we came along and interfered with their ability to massacre and enslave each other.
Hank
Um, Hank…We massacred and enslaved them. I guess being massacred and enslaved by white folks is better.
Gary,
I’m with you. The current administration scares the bejebus out of me. But what is really frightening is that 52% of the voters in this country are ok with what’s going on. I can’t believe the American people aren’t howling for impeachment considering all the lies and misrepresentation that have lead us into a war that the rest of the world sees as unjust and illegal. I know, I know..where was I on 9/11? I wasn’t on a plane and neither were any Iraqis.
The idiots are wasting time on a flag burning amendment while Americans are dying in a needless war to the tune of 300 billion plus. The trade deficit is off the planet. We’re getting shafted on Social Security, Medicare, Education, the environment, and employment while the ultra rich get tax breaks. I notice our conservitave friends aren’t screaming about activist courts in light of the new “takings” judgement. Yeah, I’m a little shook up.
So, Hank, how does the VFW dispose of old, tattered flags?
Dear RD,
I appreciate your interest. As you know, to belong to the VFW you must have served in a ‘War Zone’. There is a list of campaign ribbons that if you have been awarded one you are qualified to join. The VFW is a group of men that were willing to risk their lives for their country. (And willing to take up arms and fight again!) After their service they continue through the VFW to serve their nation and their communities.
At my old VFW we would retire colors once a year. There are several approved methods to accomplish this solemn task. Rest assured that when the group of old warriors gathered on that day it was a ceremony that was held with reverence and respect. We had memories of comrades that had served and died under these colors and it was an honor and a duty that we didn’t take lightly.
Hopefully this has answered your question. If not, the following website is a good one to go to:
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
Thanks again for your interest,
Hank
Hank, thank you for the lesson on VFW, but instead of the simple answer I was expecting, you gave me the link for a history lesson. Hank, I was born on June 14. I think I know a little about Betsy Ross and the history of our flag.
To answer my own question:
How does the VFW dispose of old, tattered flags?
U.S. Flag Code (4 US Code 1)
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC8
Nice try, though.
Hasn’t all the flag waving since 9/11 been enough to prove (to whom?) that Americans love their flag? Is this the only way to get those flag wavings going again, short of another WTC? Is this what Congress believes is going to save them in the ‘06 elections?
Why must the question of a Constitutional Amendment against flag burning yet again rear its head? Go back 15 years to see that the matter has already been decided:
The Flag Protection Act of 1989 made a criminal of any citizen who “knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon” a United States flag, except in relation to the disposal of a “worn or soiled” flag. In a number of cases that came to the Federal district court, the courts dismissed the charges under the belief that the Act violated the free speech clause of the First Amendment. The government appealed the United States v. Eichman case to the Supreme Court in 1990.
The Issue Before the Court:
Is the action of burning an American flag within the context of a public protest constitute “expressive conduct,” an idea that falls under the freedom of speech protection of the First Amendment?
Supreme Court Ruling: The burning of the American flag is considered “symbolic speech” and is protected under the First Amendment.
http://www.pbs.org/jefferson/enlight/flag.htm
Well Hank I managed in my post to honor both your service and your opinion. You attacked me twice directly and 3 times indirectly.
Joseph says I’m teaching my kid to be a social misfit. He meant that as an attack. I took it otherwise. I can only hope to raise my son to aspire to the social consciuosness of John Adams, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, Martin Luther King and so MANY other “social misfits”
I liked Nickis words. Sconad, Mike, Art and G also posted ideas and thoughts….. without attacking anyone.
I think this is telling. Note the emotion of those “defending” the flag. They post attacks on those who think differently. They post the lyrics of songs that tug at the heart strings.
As we approach July 4th, I think it is important that some on “the right” remember that America was born of dis-satisfied souls who came here looking for a better chance. These folks were initially welcomed by a native population whose way of life was ultimately destroyed by their accomodation to invaders. Or as Hank says, “to make an omelet you gotta break a few eggs.
Fast forward a few years to a group of idealists fomenting a not too popular war of independence against the greatest military power on Earth at the time. But to get their war off the ground they have to agree to the continued subjugation of a people who were brought here against their will to serve the needs and make the wealth for those who had found their dream.
Fast forward again to a time eigthy years after the war of Independence is won. It was a time not unlike our time, though it was one hundred forty years ago. It was a time of such national disagreement that America found itself at war against itself. One side proclaimed that government was so intruding on their way of life. They cried Freedom. The other side also cried freedom, to redress the wrongs left uncorrected in a war eighty years gone that would make men free. Of course women had never been considered.
Fast forward another 40 years to the dawn of the 20th century. In protest, prosecution and dissent came finally the right of women (well some women AND SOCIAL MISFITS TOO BOOT!) to have a voice in society.
Fast forward another 40 years to a decade of REBELLION. The descendants of those brought in chains to serve a free nation finally demanded their share of the the great experiment.
And the fight goes on still. Because THAT is what America IS. The flag is a SYMBOL. And it has not always symbolized the great ideals for which it stands. DISSENT is America. Challenging the status quo is America. Daring against all odds and attacks to do what is right is America. Freedom cannot be condenced to a symbol. Freedom is always changing and evolving. Embrace freedom and ideals and you can make lives, nations, and the world better. Embrace a symbol and you are a prisoner to what that symbol stands for and a slave to those who define it.
Whew…….
Fight the good fight
J
I did not mean to post twice. Must be a webtv fault.
Jay,
As a foster parent who has seen the effects of bad parenting, I tend to agree with Joseph. His comment was a simple declarative sentence, not an attack. Your skin seems a bit too thin, methinks.
Your list of social misfits is silly, even if modified by scare quotes. To pick just one of your examples, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had more class and political & social savvy than most Americans ever thought about. He changed America. By the way, he did it without burning any flags. Such adolescent nonsense was forbidden under his leadership.
I’ll be more specific than joseph; and you may accept this comment as useful or not: Showing a kid how to act in anger and also how to be thin-skinned is not wise. Kids follow the behavior that their parents model.
Lessons you taught – get overly upset over a political issue, treat the flag with disrespect, spout puerile nonsense based on your immature view of the world, and go burn something. Nice work. Society might be picking up the pieces in a few years.
It’d be better if you put down your sticky-keyed webtv machine and spend some serious time teaching your kid how to be a mature adult.
Thanks E. Ireland I’ve seen some of your posts on other issues as well. Suffice it to say that want YOU would call a mature adult would stand some distance from my definition.
America is wrongly headed, and headed in a wrong direction. Given that, acting in anger is the best course.
In closing, I think that you are troubled that I may teach my son to know, fear, and yes fight such as you. Instead of attacking me, why not think on what would move me so?
Jay,
“Acting in anger is the best course”? I bet Timothy McVeigh would agree with you.
I don’t argue the point that this topic is a waste of Congress time and taxpayers money. I don’t argue the point that this administration has lied and manipulated to this nation about way too many things (and if you are up on reading other blogs, you will have seen that in my posts there.)
The point that I am trying to make is that burning the flag in effigy under the thinly veiled guise of “freedom of speech” is wrong. And there is a difference between burning the flag at its retirement and burning the flag to make a point RD. Things need to be taken in context.
The problem, with your flag burning, as I see it Jay, is that you are raising your son to believe that loyalty to this nation means nothing. It’s little wonder that terrorists managed to attack us on our own soil.
I don’t argue the fact that you have the right to burn the flag if you want to. That is after all the beauty of our nation. I do feel that there are better, more constructive ways to show your displeasure that burning the flag.
And, as I said in my earlier post, now, more than ever, this country needs to stand behind itself and show the rest of the world that we do have pride in being American. If we don’t have the support of our countrymen (whether or not you agree with the administration, this nation has been around longer than they have, and the ideals of this nation have been around longer than they have) then it makes it that much easier for things like 9/11 happen.
I never once in my ealier posting said that someone shouldn’t have the right to burn the flag. If you actually read what I wrote instead of skimming, you would see that my arguements were to the point of needing to show our unity as a country, and that desecrating the symbol of our country is not showing that unity. Do I feel that burning the flag is wrong? Absolutely, 100 % without a doubt yes. Can I stop you from doing it? No, I cannot force you to do anything against your will. Do I hope that maybe, one day, you will stop and think about what it is that you are doing to this country, about the type of disrespect that you are teaching your children, and maybe, just maybe, stop destroying the symbol of the life that you hold dear? Without a doubt yes.
I do hope you realize that were you to burn a flag in another country, likely you would pay with your life. Something to think about….
And for the record, Jay, I didn’t vote to put that man into office. I didn’t want to see him there either time he managed to get there. But enough people in this country did, so there he is. And in three more years, he will be gone, never to return. If you don’t like things the way you are, what are you doing (other than burning your flag and teaching your son to disrespect this nation because you don’t agree with one man) to change it?
DO NOT Listen to Hank!!!
Hes proven hes narrow-minded by his comment.
“If ya make an omlet, ya gotta break a few eggs”
He really infuriated me with this comment!
My ancestors had a way of life and a way of worship long before Europeans ever stepped foot on this land.
Im not going to go into detail because Im pretty sure it wont open his mind any further.
I sure hope most people on his side of the political spectrum thinklike this.
Wendy… that was a very good post, but I have to take issue with ONE little thing you said.
In which other countries would you pay for flag-burning with your life? I see it all the time in European countries, and no one ever gets massacred. I bet the only countries where you take your life in your hands by sparking up a piece of cloth are countries like China and Iran and North Korea. Certainly we’re more enlightened than they are? Are they really the countries we want to emulate?
Other than that, very nice post. See, I’m really not so bad, am I?
With 33 comments posted so far, it is easy to see that this is one of those things that brings out the really strong emotions in folks. I fly the flag 24/7. Have for many years. Am I a patriot? I really do not know. Am I a vet? No, but I do know that members of my family have been dying for this country since 1685. Am I a supporter for the far Right or the far Left? I don’t think so. I do have my own personal “soap boxes” that I jump on from time to time. Do I believe that it is O.K. to burn the flag? No, I do not. However, I do believe that a person should have the right to express his or her opinions, beliefs, political/religous orientation, etc., in whatever manner they choose as long as it endangers no-one. The existance of personal freedoms is one of the things that makes America unique in the world. And I would sure hate to see us lose even a little bit of that.
I made a typo,
meant to say
“I sure hope most people on his side of the political spectrum dont think like this.”
Thats for anybody who is still reading
Gary,
You also told everybody NOT to listen to another poster. Who are you to come along and try to censor what I read? Don’t tell ME that Hank makes you mad. Tell him!
I’m sorry that Gary has quit reading my posts. I really should apologize to him for my insensive remarks.
I should have realized that he couldn’t take a joke. As far as angering him, I think he is angry most of the time and he just kinda looks for someone to focus his rage on.
Hank
i myself have never burnt an american flag, or any other for that matter, to dispose of it or to disrespect anyone. i prefer to think that if i don’t like something, i don’t have to honor it, but i don’t have to destroy anything to prove my point. after all, thats partly what our flag stands for- freedom of choice. if you don’t like the way America is, get involved. talk to your political leaders, start petitions, help to better our communities. we are all on this earth together-for good or bad-the only people we hurt are ourselves.
Burn all your flags you infidels.