It’s been a good week for the downtown venom-spewers: The NCAA says “no” to a proposal to host the men’s basketball first and second rounds at Intrust Bank Arena, and the arena parking debate moves into a higher gear today.
That’s why you’ll find a lot of people claiming vindication on Kansas.com today.
I’m not entirely unsympathetic to their concerns: This is a time when it seems like everyone has their hands in your pockets, and in my case, they’re down to fishing for pennies and nickels now. Don’t get me started on how financial institutions have reacted to the looming specter of regulation. Let’s just say they’ve got BIG hands.
But I wonder how the local “Oh, my God, don’t spend a dime” crowd will react in five years if Wichita’s economy remains in the toilet because the city and county fathers fell victim to economic panic and quit planning for the future.
I hear a lot about how the “free market” solves every economic problem. And although “free market” is Latin for “no regulations so I can make a bunch of money any old way possible” to a lot of folks, there are still free markets in Wichita.
To wit: Two of the city’s largest real estate brokerages are making changes and spending money in an effort to position themselves at the top of the industry – when the Wichita economy recovers.
J.P. Weigand & Sons has been nothing short of aggressive, opening new divisions and adding more staff to position itself for the economic recovery. Same story at Plaza Real Estate, which linked up with the national Coldwell Banker flag.
They share a simple idea: You’ve got to spend money to make money. And from where I sit, Wichitans need to keep that idea in mind as they grind their teeth over each and every expenditure at City Hall and the county courthouse.
Each expenditure comes with accountability down the road. Some will work out. I suspect some won’t.
But so does inaction.
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“You’ve got to spend money to make money”
That is true – however that is no excuse for spending money blindly. And, as you also note “Each expenditure comes with accountability down the road.” And, with the Arena that accountability is now due.
As for parking; I have long maintained that this can be dealt with. My proposal using existing parking at City/County, WaterWalk, L-D, and Exploration Place tied togather with Q-Lines along with buses converging on the Transit Center would go a long way toward dealing with that. This proposal has been provided to Fluhr and others involved.
However, finding ways to keep the Arena full is on them. The decision to build it primarily for sports instead of a multi-purpose facility that we need will likely come back to haunt them. And then ‘acountability’ comes into play.
Regulation or deregulation is moot when the government decides businesses are too big to fail.
Regarding spending money to make money, I couldn’t agree more. What I disagree with is the plan the City continues to follow, which is throwing dollars at pennies. Spend the dollars on infrastructure. In most instances it is far easier to modify a development to fit a city then modifying the city to fit a development.
There’s truth to that, Ben, in that the city’s approach downtown has historically involved plopping attractions wherever. Out of that approach grows the substantial challenges before the downtown revitalization consultant.
Personally, I look at downtown and see a huge challenge developing an entertainment corridor west from the arena to the Riverfront. Without significant residential development along that corridor – development that no doubt will require a public-private partnership – I don’t see enough business infill possibilities to create the corridor.
My point is this: Inaction also carries with it accountability. There are significant public and private dollars now invested downtown, from which there is no turning back and, in my view, nothing constructively accomplished by persisting in weeping and wailing about their expenditure.
Thus, it’s folly, I think, not to press forward with the master plan approach and do what we can to tie these attractions together and grow jobs and residences downtown.
I understand the anguish out there over the expenditure of public monies downtown, and there’s some historical reason for the lack of trust in government that drives it. But “don’t spend any money” rings very hollow to me without some vision about how best to turn downtown around.
Good points both. As Jery said, we seem to be spending without any sort of plan – just throwing money at things. WaterWalk seems to be the ‘poster project’ for that – 7 years on and virtually nothing to show for it. And to build a warehouse right on the river? Rediculous!
I don’t know how they will be able to attract private sector development around the Arena. That will be a tough one. I attend events at Century II regularly and am struck by just how little there is around that facility. We eat out when weattend events – but elsewhere and then drive down to C-II
You may have seen my transportation proposal (letter to the Eagle some time back) for the Arena and downtown. I still think that will be critical. They need to have us walking around – not just driving in and then heading right back out. There is no excuse in not using the transit center to support downtown. I think this is part of what Jerry calls for with “Spend the dollars on infrastructure”
I have also called for support of less expensive residential in the ‘collar’ area – the do-nut 1-3 miles from the center of downtown. That, in turn, can help support downtown.
I wish Fluhr luck with this – he will need it.
Walking for the sake of walking. I noticed in the article about Arena parking a comment of a ‘culture change’. That is SO true! In Chicago, for example, we would take the train downtown and walk all over the place. I loved it – gave me license to eat all I want and figure I’d exercise it off. And, statistics prove that – urban lifestyles are healthier than ours.
I attend Music Theater – but drive in and right back out. We simply don’t have a very walker-friendly environment downtown – which is sad.
There is a chicken-egg factor here: part of making it walker-friendly would be convenient walk-in businesses to browse. eat, drink, etc. But they need the walkers there to survive. So, which comes first?
And, I will answer that with my opinion. We need transit to downtown that people will actually use. That way office workers become the first walkers as they seek lunch or just a reprieve from the office. With no car to drive to lunch walking would rule – as it does in cities like Chicago. Then the rest of us can come into downtown in the evening and find that environment. (I work in the periphery just as I did in Chicago and Pittsburgh)
It will take a culture change. And it will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Riverfest – run shuttle buses in the the big weekend days. Maybe that can ‘break the ice’ for some people.
I do think we should keep marketing Wichita. When sales get slow a progressive business increases it’s advertising. It’s disappointing that some are calling for the council to stop investing, traveling and selling our community to others.
I do think we should keep marketing Wichita. When sales get slow a progressive business increases it’s advertising. It’s disappointing that some are calling for the council to stop investing, traveling and selling our community to others.
Sorry… forgot to say great post – can’t wait to read your next one!
The parking debate is its own tired animal. If you’ve EVER attended a major sporting event or tried to do business in a major metropolitan area, it’s a given that you’re going to park and walk – sometimes more than a mile. The fact that Wichitans expect otherwise speaks volumes to our community naivete.
And let me restate the obvious: Downtown redevelopment relies on shoppers and visitors parking and walking. Downtown won’t come back in a “park at the front door” environment that allows event-goers and shoppers to drive in and drive out. Without people strolling over to Old Town to grab a bite and maybe buy some clothing, the entire redevelopment idea is bust.
As for governmental investment in the city’s economy, there’s absolutely no question that it has to continue – prudently. It’s fine to ask questions of the city council and the county commission when those investments occur; it’s destructive to the community’s future to assume that any investment is a bad idea on its face.
We’ve heard and read the objection many times: “You shouldn’t be spending that money when city employees are being laid off.” Fact is, though, that without business development, revenues won’t increase and more jobs could be lost – at City Hall and across the community.
I agree, also, that Jeff Fluhr faces a couple of significant challenges: Battling this community’s pathological fear of investing in development, and in pulling together a set of downtown attractions that were essentially just dropped in place without a broader development plan.
Significant challenges, you bet. Whether they’re insurmountable or not may be determined by this community’s mindset.
Bill – 100% agreed. As a former resident near Chicago, Pittsburgh and other urban areas I spent a lot of time just ‘wandering around’ in downtowns. And this was as a suburbanite who was attracted to the downtown life for evenings. Although I did not work downtown my wife did. So, she knew all the fun little places to hit. We need to build that here. Again, I do not work downtown but both my wife and my son do. Think of the implications if they took transit to work. A wander over to Delano to meet me as I drive in for dinner. Wander around a bit more to assuage my guilt about all those calories I just ate (I’ll just exercise them off, right?). Then eventually head on home to the suburbs. It worked in LA. It worked in Pittsburgh. It worked in Chicago. Why not here?
You are absolutely correct – it will be a mindset issue. And, as I see the resistence to my oft-repeated suggestions about using Q and buses I suspect it will be difficult to change.
There are two factors that are absolutely essential to revitalizing downtown Wichita – getting people to live downtown, and then getting those people to wander around downtown spending money, and get their friends to join them. It’s not an either-or. Both must happen or downtown will remain stagnant.
So it’s hard for me to find fault with any public official who’s out aggressively looking for answers to those issues. It’s much easier to find fault with those who decry any financial investment in the search for those answers – without any alternative ideas on how to accomplish those goals. Perhaps the reality is that some are apathetic about revitalizing downtown. It’s hard for me to wrap my arms around the notion that anyone could truly oppose the idea.
One additional thought: There’s a niche in that downtown residential component that someone’s going to have to fill – soon. I think you touched on it, Ben.
Downtown cannot become another community for the wealthy. There’s been good upscale housing developed downtown. There’s a definite need for lower-priced housing that is just now beginning to be addressed.
Check with the South-Cantral Improvement Alliance. They are working to improve the area south of Kellogg roughly between St. Frances and the River. Look especially at the BG products property. If that becomes available think about some good “middle-class” residential there.
Residential around Delano. MidTown. The area between Old Town and College Hill.
Then – get decent transit. Moderate income people could have a good lifestyle with employment within bus range. That would also serve to support that downtown redevelopment.
All of that is what I refer to as the donut.
I make pretty good money. However, he prices for those tax-subsidized Condos down there are out of range for me.
BTW – I think there WAS a MidTown proposal. The City was not supportive of it. However, the City DOES support the ultra-expensive projects by the “usual suspects” of taxpayer-subsidized development.
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It’s going to be intersting.
I’m going to agree with Bill on all points.
Ben, I recall that the city initially supported the midtown project, then withdrew it after due diligence uncovered some issues on the part of one of the developers.
The city’s been less than diligent in the past about these kinds of projects, and seems to be paying a price right now with the public for that, but it appears to me that under Bob Layton they’ve made a good-faith effort to ramp up that due diligence. It’s entirely proper that the public demand the city do its homework before spending taxpayer dollars on development.
I hope you are correct. What troubles many taxpayers is that the City will throw millions at Burk et.al. for The Flats and other mega-buck high end condos and apartments but nothing for middle class or working class.
Speaking of diligence etc. Today’s paper had a claim of a 13-to-1 payback on public dollars invested in these things. I have an investigative assignment for you. Take three large multi-million dollar downtown development districts and see how they have panned out. Old Town (including the Plaza), Delano, and WaterWalk. I would think that all of these have had many years to mature (WW is 7 years old, older than WaterFRONT). Are we seeing the 13-1 we were promised? I remember all to well that Council meeting 7+ years ago. I’m willing to bet Delano wins.
Perhaps there might be some lessons to be learned by such an exercise.
Actually, I believe Bob Layton is carrying out that exercise and the results aren’t good. He’s indicated that one of the big reasons he opposed locating the new downtown Y at First and Waco was removing prime development ground off the tax rolls.
There’s unquestionably a precedent for taxpayer concern. My point is that there’s a new sheriff (Layton) in town who deserves a chance to oversee this process without allowing the past to paralyze his efforts.
An interesting lesson might be to see which developers actually genearte a return and which do not. Remember, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. If we have had failed developments (and I think WW now qualifies) and we then have the same people wanting to start new ones the public will get even more cynical.
Funny thing is that I was not opposed to the Y. At least that is a facility the public can use at a reasonablr price. I don’t know that the WW Condos or The Flats are such.
The city’s financial involvement, as I understand it, in the Flats is relatively minimal, with historic tax credits playing a bigger role.
Look, any honest person realizes that the city’s track record on some of these public-private partnerships is checkered, as is its history of doing its due diligence.
However, I just don’t think that past history is sufficient reason to tie Bob Layton’s hands without first seeing what happens on his watch. Same story with Jeff Fluhr.
Wichita needs to let them do their thing, watch the results and evaluate them accordingly. Evaluating Layton on what transpired under George Kolb and/or Chris Cherches is patently unfair and counterproductive.
I’m not advocating tying Layton’s hands. However, if the guys who pushed a failed development (e.g. WaterWalk) come in with another grand scheme I would like turn them away. Let’s get the guys who have done successful developments to do some more.
My issue is not Layton. It’s the GOBN developers.
Well, I think you need to keep in mind how WaterWalk originally foundered. If there’s a glaring example of how the old City Hall fouled up downtown development, that would be it – committing millions to infrastructure and then chasing off a centerpiece tenant through political maneuvering.
Very true. However, I remember the Council meeting – I spoke there but my comments have been deleted frmo the record. The room was packed with developers and their employees eager to get a place at the public trough. They all had pretty drawings and promises of big multipliers. So, the blame goes not only with City Hall but these developers who made a bundle off of this. Especially a certain developer who coveted the riverfront land the Boathoouse stands on and wanted to destroy that landmark.
So, whenever I see these developers carrying promises I tend to grab my wallet.
Kind of like my attitude toward those Wall Street execs who ran companies into the ground. I’m not real excited to seem them resurfacing at other public companies.
After looking at the history of WaterWalk, it’s apparent to me that if certain political interests hadn’t chased Bass Pro off – here comes that “Oh, my God, don’t spend money” theme again – that business and the long list of retailers it carries under each arm would have produced a thriving retail and entertainment area. The pretty pictures and overly optimistic multipliers wouldn’t have been needed. It would have largely self-developed.
So in the case of WaterWalk, I see a LOT more fault falling at City Hall than I do the developers.
It’s an inherent political risk in Wichita to vote to spend tax money to incent business development. Whether that level of risk should exist is subject to debate.
But those who advocate doing nothing should be exposed to the same risk – credibility in their case, rather than political, I think. I don’t view rabid populism through any different prism.
If nothing else this definitely illustrates what Layton – and Fluhr – are up against. There is a tendency among many of us to say “here we go again” when we see all sorts of rosy projections. Right now they might be best served by getting some smaller but illustrative development in the success column to take citizens’ eyes off things like WaterWalk. Maybe it’s like a guy tryimg to rebuild his credit – it is a slow and painstaking process. And, if he is keeping the same company he was with when he went under it doesn’t help. THAT is my problem with certain of these developers – they were key in the WaterWalk fiasco.
If nothing else, people should walk away from this issue with an appreciation for two men who’ve taken on a difficult task. I’ve had an opportunity to get to know both of them, and I’m comfortable saying Wichita’s more than lucky to have them. And thank God Layton’s not a Cubs fan.
Seriously, though, I understand why a Wichita taxpayer would be gun-shy of public-private development. I’m just not sure that this level is appropriate. I wouldn’t hesitate to invest in a Dave Burk project, for example – although the mere idea of a journalist having enough money to become a commercial developer makes me chuckle.
It’s a little bit like being involved in a car accident, and refusing to drive from that point forward. I don’t think failure in this case is any justification at all to quit trying.
One other point I want to interject: Over the years I’ve been covering real estate here, I’ve asked several of the area’s high-profile developers why downtown has sat vacant all these years? Why didn’t you snap up some buildings and improve them? They certainly haven’t been changing hands for big dollars over the last five years.
The answer is return. To a man, they’ve said the cost-benefit analysis for private downtown redevelopment won’t work. The buildings are rundown. The cost of revitalizing them is daunting. Even at bargain sales prices. These are people who are prospering elsewhere – in Wichita, and across the country.
That’s the interim of two decades, unfortunately, where the city fathers have chosen to drop attractions all around downtown. Can’t really fault them. Some development was better than none.
So now we find ourselves at a turning point in time – when the city and county leaders have decided to pull downtown together in a public-private economic development partnership.
I’m curious how others can look at decades of private development inaction downtown and find fault with that decision. We gave the beloved free market a chance and it said “no.”
Right now, it’s not clear in my mind the future of public-private partnerships, either, given the financial struggles of the Minnesota Guys.
But I don’t see any realistic – underscore that word, realistic – alternatives out there. Is the alternative to let downtown rot?
And thank God Layton’s not a Cubs fan.
Hey! What’s wrong with us Cubs fans?!
I’d like to see more of the public investment be for the PUBLIC. Infrastructure. Streets. SIDEWALKS. Bike lanes and paths – especially if they are telling us to bike to the IBA. Transit.
One of the factors in fringe area development is that we extend infrastructure out there and don’t assess impact fees for arterial construction. Lets look at that issue.
I dearly want to see a downtown that attracts visitors. I just don’t want it so overpriced that it is only for the few. I guess what I am looking for is support of projects that benefit the many; I’m afrais I just haven’t seen a whole lot of that so far.
Using your car accident analogy – if it was caused by my cheuffer (sp?) being drunk I might want to replace him.
Chuckle. Thanks for the laugh, Ben. I’d probably replace him, too. And I don’t disagree that downtown’s been evolving into a sort of high-priced gated community – so far. That needs to change.
And for the record, I was born and raised a Cardinals fan.
And here I was thinking I could learn to like you!
Chuckle. It’s not easy being a Sooner and a Cardinal fan in Kansas.
Like me going to Players and cheering for UCLA in the NCAAs against KU?
A Cubs comment – somewhat serous to topic. I attended games at Wrigley without big parking garages. Knew my way arond back alleys and little bars/eateries. Also the ‘L’ (transit). It CAN be done but, as noted, will require a cultural change.
I’m assuming, based on all the melodramatic hand-wringing going on in Wichita, that very few Wichitans attend Oklahoma games in Norman.
Because if you do, a one-mile walk is a short walk and a close parking spot.
Or UCLA games – LA freeway traffic followed by that long walk. Thing is, the walk needs to be a pleasant one. Campuses are good in that regard.
Bill said: “Downtown redevelopment relies on shoppers and visitors parking and walking. Downtown won’t come back in a “park at the front door” environment that allows event-goers and shoppers to drive in and drive out. Without people strolling over to Old Town to grab a bite and maybe buy some clothing, the entire redevelopment idea is bust.”
Bill, you nailed it. Parking issues killed downtown, as folks prefer free “front door” parking at malls. And you resist “front door” arena parking because it might allow folks to escape being stuck in downtown, having to walk around or shop to kill time, which we do not wish to do. We will pay $10 per car to avoid it. The entire redevelopment idea IS bust.
Why do you complain that Wichita’s economy will “remain” in the toilet? We are a top American city in which to live. Our manufacturing base supports high wages. Entrepreneurship is rampant. And did you disrespect Weigand and Plaza with your free market definition? Please consider supporting the CITIZENS of this city, not the political/developer class.
If the CITIZENS had been eager for downtown development, the arena would have been a cakewalk, rather than a tortuous, repetitive, expensively and dishonestly promoted issue that barely squeaked by. If we are supposed to shut up because the arena “won”, then why didn’t promoters shut up when it “lost” the first two attempts?
Bill said: “There are significant public and private dollars now invested downtown, from which there is no turning back and, in my view, nothing constructively accomplished by persisting in weeping and wailing about their expenditure. Thus, it’s folly, I think, not to press forward with the master plan approach and do what we can to tie these attractions together and grow jobs and residences downtown. I understand the anguish out there over the expenditure of public monies downtown, and there’s some historical reason for the lack of trust in government that drives it.”
Bill, you nailed it again. We don’t trust our government to spend our money well. They’ve fooled Wichitans more than twice, so good luck changing that sentiment.
Bth said: “I have also called for support of less expensive residential in the ‘collar’ area – the do-nut 1-3 miles from the center of downtown. That, in turn, can help support downtown.”
Bth, the city zoned east of downtown as light industrial, which outlawed residential growth. Once 85% of residents were gone, the city changed the zoning to to promote dense residential growth WITHOUT normal requirements that residential community parking be provided by the developers. The plan is for the city to condemn the 15% of residential property remaining in order to provide CITY-BUILT parking for the NEW residents in the NEW towers. The city will save the donut by wiping out residents of the donut. Government logic. Enjoy.
redbud – what you describe is the exact oppsite of what I am calling for. My model is more like what is being attempted by the hard-working citizens of the South-Central Improvement Alliance. They are working diligently to improve the area south of Kellogg from the River about a mile east. I would seek to see that replicated in the resedential areas near Delano on out to Friends and also in MidTown.That area east might best remain light industrial. After all, that creates jobs for those who might live in th other areas.
I definitely do NOT support continuing on the path to a high-dollar ‘gated community’ downtown supported by my tax dollars.
BTW – parking issues can be alleviated by transit. That would allow a family like mine to have one car instead of two. And some might even opt to have no car as I knew people in others cities do.
I’m sure you can see that I do NOT subscribe to government logic.
redbud – I think that citizens DO want downtown development – just not the stuff that has been foisted upn us in the name of that development. Reasonable investment in infrastructure – things like streets, parks, a re-furbished West Bank Stage, etc. Then let the private sector build bars, eateries, office buildings, etc. I think Delano is a much better model than Waterwalk or Old Town. The ratio of private to public investment has gotten turned upside down.
bth, I agree with you completely on all points! Both posts!
The ratio of private to public investment is INDEED turned upside down.
This is our history, our current situation, and our FUTURE plan.
Like you, I do NOT support continuing on the path to a high-dollar ‘gated community’ downtown supported by my tax dollars.
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Not saying the sentiment is unjustified, historically speaking, Redbud.
What I am saying is that the faces holding the purse-strings have changed. Holding Bob Layton responsible for spending under the George Kolb and Chris Cherches regimes, for example – politicians included – is just nonsensical.
If Wichitans are going to confront the city’s future with grudges against projects long past, then this city doesn’t have much of a future, in my view.
Bill – that is why it is imperative that Layton make it VERY clear that he is breaking from past practices. I don’t know that I fully agree with you that “the faces holding the purse-strings have changed” given the fact that so many of the so-called private developers are still in the game.
Really, Ben, I don’t care who’s in the game. It’s who’s managing the accountability store.
Frankly, taxpayers who failed in the past 20 years to hold the city and private developers accountable are as guilty as the city people who’ve treated due diligence as a foreign concept.
My point is, the days of no accountability at City Hall are over with Layton at the helm. You need look no further than his impact on the proposed new Central Y location at First and Waco.
We all share responsibility for accountability on city investments. Many of those who believe past history is a rationale to fear current projects need a mirror, in my view.
Bill – some of us TRIED to hold them accountable but we were rudely ignored. I find it VERY telling that my comments over 7 years ago predicting that WaterWalk would founder were deleted from the City Council minutes. All they say is that I spoke against it.
I hope you are correct. I WANT to see successful downtown redevelopment. However, trust must be earned. I’m willing to give Layton a chance – I hope he succeeds. But, I will also try my best to closely scrutinize everything.
BTW – about mirrors. The Eagle acted as a blind cheer-leader for WaterWalk. I wish the reporters – who don’t have other ‘day jobs’ as other taxpayers do – had done a little more digging and had covered its beginnings better.
Well, I don’t know about anything that happened at the Eagle before the late summer of 2006.
But I do know that since then, the Eagle’s been anything but a “blind cheerleader” for WaterWalk, including investigative pieces on what happened to Bass Pro and the background of John Elkington, a developer brought in to help make business contacts.
True. BTW – are you going to the arena parking open house tonight? I plan to ask some specific questions – will be interesting to see their responses.
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