pg – I am glad you seem to be recognizing that algae is still experimental. Take it from another ‘MIT guy’ that is still has a long way to go. Wind is a LOT further along – I can take you to functioning wind farms all over the world. And, wind IS reliable if done right – that is, wind farms rather than isolated turbines. It is always blowing SOMEWHERE.

The reason for the connection between algae and Sunflower is the BOGUS claims that were made last year that the algae plant would make Sunflower’s expansion at Holcomb essentially carbon-neutral. Morris and Neufield were deliberately lying with that claim. Thus my challenge – demonstrate algae in the similar coal plant already at Holcomb.

A concern about the residue as cattle feed. I read somewhere that there has been an increase in Salmonella associated with that. I don’t know whatever came of that but it would seem to be a concern – especially with wet cake. I always worry about what might ‘grow’ in such an environment. We have found in the past that messing around with animal feed can lead to undesirable unintended consequences.

“The “economics” of ethanol would be VERY different if big corn, big irrigation, and ethanol production were NOT being heavily subsidized by YOUR tax dollars. If ethanol had to truely pay its way, consumers would not be saving money at the pump.”

Where is Karl when we need him?

I agree about groundwater issues with nitrogen. A LOT of folks out here have to haul their potable water, or become a member of a rural water district, not because they dont have enough water, but because they have unsafe levels of nitrates in their ground water. That comes either from nitrogen leaching out of fields, or from leaching from confined animal operations.

And once it’s in there, to use MY scientific term, “yer screwed”!

We all think our ground water is pristine. As Wink always points out, it isnt always so. Giardia (sp?) has become a groundwater and surface water problem for folks out here, as are nitrates, and oil field contamination. The oil field problems were generally created long ago with inefficient and unsafe well plugging, but it still happens today. And the more we drill, the more of those problems we will have.

Maybe industry, from ethanol to confined animals to petroleum exploration and production, actually WANT people to literally “get the hell outa Dodge”.

That way they dont have to worry about polluting or draining the water supply…

Deer and pheasant and prairie dogs dont vote!

When he stops lying and misleading, I’ll stop holding him accountable for it, and when you research and verify what he tells you, I’ll get off your back about shilling for him.

Deal?

http://www.google.com/search?q=ethanol+%2B+water+usage&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

And gee, I guess THESE guys “I used 3 gallons from the latest presentations of the Kansas Bioscience Authority and the International Ethanol Fuel Workshop which ended today in Nashville” wouldnt have a vested interest in getting the public, via the press, to believe water is a non-issue, now would they?

heheheheh….

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=3465919

Cool. I think that’s the point. It is research, and miller and neufeld et al are blowing smoke up our collective hineys when they make it sound like the magic algae is ready to go. It’s not.

You are indeed correct about the gamut of figures regarding how many gallons of water it takes to produce one gallon of ethanol. Industry shills go with the low end three gallons figure, and Wink is not far off on his 8-10 gallons for some plants. Every plant is different, but I found this from ABC news. It is on the high end at 15 gallons. And it does not include irrigation, etc. which, in southwest Kansas and apparently Minnesota is a real issue. Maybe in Illinois and Iowa not so much, but certainly it is in Kansas.

“A longtime analyst of ethanol production disagreed with Martin and questioned his figures, saying it takes an average of about 15 gallons of water to produce a gallon of ethanol much higher than the roughly three gallons of water per gallon of ethanol Martin cited.

Groundwater tables in some states, including Missouri, have been drawn down to dangerously low levels near some ethanol plants, said David Pimentel, an ecology and agriculture professor at Cornell University.

The figures cited by both Martin and Pimentel include only a plant’s production of ethanol, not the water it takes to grow corn. After adding that, about 1,700 gallons are needed to produce every gallon of ethanol, Pimentel said.

The entire water-use picture, coupled with the fuel it takes to produce ethanol, makes long-term, mass production of ethanol unsustainable, Pimentel said.

“I wish it were sustainable, I’m an agriculturalist,” he said. “I wish this whole ethanol deal was a major benefit, but you’ve got to be a scientist first and an agriculturalist second.”

I encourage readers to indeed google “ethanol + water usage” and read the information for yourself. Obviously industry shills want folks to think water is no big deal, and water activists like me want you to know it is a very big deal.

I’m also unimpressed with the “yeah, but ethanol doesnt use as much water as (fill in the blank)” arguments. There is already a shortage of water in all of western Kansas, but especially in southwest Kansas. Water sucking industries are not sustainable. And, as Wink noted, ethanol pollutes groundwater too, as you will find if you google as suggested.

Wink generally has his stuff correct when it comes to water issues.

I’m sorry you and I got off on the wrong foot PJ. However, I’ve been reading your ethanol stuff for quite some time, and it makes me LIVID when you only quote industry sources. I thought “fair and balanced” was the standard for journalists. I know how important ag is to Kansas (note my nic) but Kansas will be nothing but a Buffalo Commons if people here dont wake up.

Or, maybe, paraphrasing Sting, we should hope that Kansans love their children too. Why piss, moan and sigh about economic development when NO development, or population, is sustainable without water.